mentalblog.com comments:
So on essence there is a segregation for BTs also but is based not on the discriminatory background but on qualities.
please re-state. not clear.
CE, (to answer you question in the original thread)
You are making something simple exceedingly complex. People have different netieis and abilities. Those are not hard to recognize in individuals of all ages and backgrounds. And sometimes you simple give someone a try and see if they can make it. What’s so complicated here?
Berl, if remember correctly, we were speaking about seperating different levels of chassidishkeit, not different levels of intellect and comprehension. A person's IQ rarely does ever change, thus, putting a gifted child together with a slow one would prove counterproductive, BUT chassidishkeit, or Haskafah on life is something which can change, especially in the younger stages. The issues of smart and stupid in the same class is just something that we'll have to live with. Besides, the classroom is not the valley of academic wisdom.
" So on essence there is a segregation for"
TA, did you mean "you propose segregation for BTs also..."?
Radomsker, the two are connected. Read my comment again - I address that point.
Berl,
I'm not sure it's all as simple as that. People are usually a work in progress, and BT especially so.
A lot would have to do with the age of the kid and the specifics of the BT. Threfore, since it we end up dealing with "judgement calls" - perhaps even somewhat arbitrary ones at that - I'd think it would be quite a challenge to implement successfully. And who would make these decisions?
When T"T began, the Rebbe N"E could make those decisions, and did so. But today, we would have to find the right person(s) and even if we did, it's far from foolproof.
Admittedly, I may be overcomplicating things; perhaps it may would be easier to recognize who belongs with who, but someone would have to REALLY know the individuals, REALLY supervise the daily goings on, and make unbiased decisions... the likelihood of which is, what?
You address different netiyeis to hashkafa and chassidishkeit. This would be the equivalent of making a "Nerdy" class, a "Cool" class and of course, a "Poor parents" class - in the secular view of things. Seichel is Seichel and doesn't change or is affected as fast as netyeis are, as a matter of fact, netiyeis are MEANT to be changed in school, while seichel is meant to be developed
Radomsker,
Yeshiva is an institution of learning. As I said, a child not placed in an appropriate learning environment will be very unhappy. And when learning and religion are intertwined, as they are in our culture, it is not difficult to see said unhappiness quickly directed at the religion itself. Not sure? Just look around and see the results for yourself.
People, what the hell kind of culture do we have here that ideology trumps reality every time? You tell someone "this shit isn't working". Their retort is a pilpul on why "it is supposed to work."
I DON’T CARE IF IT IS “SUPPOSED TO WORK” AND HOW IT’S “SUPPOSED TO WORK”. AT THE END OF THE DAY IT EITHER WORKS OR IT DON'T. IF IT DON’T - FIX IT. UGHHHHHH!
Correct.
Now, would your proposal work? I don't think so. In fact, this kind of division is already happening in lubavitch - look at the success, save for ULY.
"In fact, this kind of division is already happening in Lubavitch"
I was NOT talking about the division based on money and family connections! That kind of division serves no one but the parents' egos. It does nothing for the kids.
I can't believe this entire simple point has to be explained so much - I am done explaining it. You were place in the wrong class!
The result of the system you are suggesting, Berl, would produce a nearly equal segregation of BT's. Let's face it: How many BT's, even by 2nd or 3rd year yeshiva, can follow a class in any shiur of a yeshiva gedola? How many such people do you know?
So the result would be the same segregation. This is what TA is saying, and I am with him 100%.
I do not think that is what TA is saying Nathan, though he did not explain himself. I doubt TA would object to people ending up in separate strata if that separation was based on objective criteria (and not some background-based arbitrary discrimination).
P.S. My usage of the word “segregation” in describing my own idea was nothing more than cheap sensationalism; if you read my actual comments you’ll see that I did not propose any real “segregation”, but rather that we base our educational system (and beyond) on realism and honest assessment of children’s (and adult BTs’) abilities.
Nathan, do you think BT's would still be discriminated against if instead of myriads of semi-functional clones from Tiffers, HH and Gafni, you had a much smaller number of BTs that went 'through the system' with the bulk of BTs living in their respected communities with their sheluchim, slowly growing in their yiddishkeit, all having finished their college education and married sane Jewish women unscarred by Mochon Chana? Think about that.
I meant "respective" communities, not "respected".
You should read author Clifford Meth's take on this subject in the story "I, Gezheh" which my rabbi, Baruch Cohen, calls "required reading for baali tshuva"
Berl,
I'd say everybody in the entire movement see this guy first just to be safe.
http://www.rickross.com/
A GUTTEN SHABBOS!!
Berl,
You are suggesting something other than what I had originally understood you to mean: that BT's not deemed capable enough to hack the mainstream yeshiva system, should not land in said system in the first place. While I do not know whether this is a good or a bad idea, I can volunteer my observations:
First of all, there would be many less BT's were there no organized yeshiva system to take them in. (The result would certainly be less discrimination; there is no anti-Semitism where there are no Jews). Whether this is a good or bad thing is a different question; at the moment, I am merely pointing out that this is the case.
Secondly, to express a truly informed opinion on the subject, it would be necessary to check, by the numbers, how many people going through the abovementioned nuthouses nevertheless gained much grounding both in being able to read and comprehend basic Jewish texts as well as hanochos, not to mention the lesser amount of bochrim that, based on said grounding, continued on to mainstream yeshivos.
In the event that there would be no such yeshivos, many if not most of the people who entered such systems would not have become frum in the first place. The droves of kids that are freing out, would never have been born.
As I said, I don't know what would be better. Do you have the numbers to make such a call? Perhaps; I definitely don't.
Berl, how was this disparity ever allowed to occur? Who was asleep at the wheel when these kids were growing up? How much help was offered to families to ensure that at least their kids would be mainstreamed, if not their parents?
Surely it should have been us, the initiators of the whole BT movement (if one is to believe the glossy brochures), that should have had at least some foresight as to the future of these families that we were mekarev?
Boruch, the issue you are addressing has already been discussed ad nauseam on rebeljew's blog. On the sidebar, just scroll down to "This Blog - The Baal Tshuva Series". At the time, this blog linked there extensively.
Boruch, I do not have much time to write tonight, but what ever gave you the idea that I was talking about kids of BTs????? I was NOT. Read my comments, I was talking about kids (as in "all kids") and "young adult BT's". And btw, who ever told you that kids of BTs are "freing-out" in larger percentages than kids from gezha families?
Berl, it depends which kinds of BT's. but the percentage of "different" or not ultra chassidish BT family fryout rate is certainly higher than gezha (Of course, the fully integrated BT families are an excpetion)
Radomker, you might be right, I don't know. What I do know is that there is enough trouble in this area to go around.
Nathan,
You wrote: "In the event that there would be no such yeshivos, many if not most of the people who entered such systems would not have become frum in the first place."
Said who? The BTs did not come to these institutions on their own. Sure, many today would not be in surtuks and maybe not with untrimmed beards, but "would not have become frum" is a bit of a stretch. Anyways, this BT angle of the conversation it a choleim shecholmu acheirim al acheirim - nothing is likely to change in this regard, since the people that run these institutions are convinced they are actually helping the BTs (and the fact that they earn a living doing so would probably make convincing them otherwise a bit difficult). The only real change today is that many sheluchim (I think smartly) are not interested in sending their mekurovim to these nuthouses.
To be sure, there is a very limited role that the segregated BT Yeshivas can legitimately play. But if they overreach, they do their students a great disservice (bordering on permanent damage which can be viewed as evil). Here is what’s I believe is honest and moral for these institutions to do:
1. Be a sort of ulpan-like center that is committed to speedily mainstream its students into the regular Yeshivas (within 1/2 year max*)
2. Serve as a seminar/"yeshivacation"/resource/support center for those BTs that are for whatever reason (age, aptitude, interest, etc) not "mainstream" Yeshiva material and will continue, for the most part, living their present lives.
3. Realize that they are not capable of doing either "1" or "2" and get an honest job that does not entail messing with people’s heads.
* Nathan, before you go all nuts on me over this point let me say this: I do not imagine that in ½ a year any BT will be ready to hear a Ktzeis or a Reb Chaim nor delve into a Rashbo, but:
a. Neither are more than half of the regular students. Ever. Not even after 15 years in the system. It’s one of the biggest BS stories that the Yeshiva world sells. The truth is that most people’s brains are simply not wired for this type of learning. And it is very destructive to perpetuate this BS story.
b. In ½ year the BT can acquire enough basic skills to enter the zal and continue learning there at his own pace while attending basic shiurim (the kind of shiurim that, incidentally, would benefit many regular bachurim as well).
c. Alternatively, ½ a year is enough time to determine that said BT is not suited fort this activity on the full-time basis.
The most important thing – none of what has been discussed in these threads is likely to happen any time soon. I guess we need the repeat of the end of 19th century freing-out percentages CH"V for us to all wake up and smell – pardon my French – the shit.
Berl, very well said. I had (mistakenly?) understood you to mean that there should be no BT programs at all. That they need drastic change, I am in full agreement with you. I will follow your order of points, starting with the footnote:
a. Having served my time learning with BTs both in and out of HH etc., I can readily verify your statement of the facts. (If you thought mitvoch sho'o was bad...)
When I referred to "basic Jewish texts", I meant Chumash/Rashi, and being capable of properly understanding an English shiur in Gemoro. I think (hope) that such level of learning is indeed achieved even under the status quo.
b. the kind of shiurim that, incidentally, would benefit many regular bochurim as well
Truly a topic in itself. As usual, you are dead on the button. There are plenty of bochurim entering OT zal whose erudition is not necessarily at all higher than that of the BTs being discussed.
OT was for many years lucky - to an extent - in having Rabbi Wolberg, who would take total zeros coming out of Troy and teach (some of) them "the ropes" of learning Gemoro and basic meforshim (something which should have been done in grades 5-8, certainly in mesivta; ve'ein letzaer bedovor hama'arich). Quite frankly, such a class should be absolutely mandatory for any and every bochur entering zal, with rare exceptions being made on a case-by-case basis.
Moreover, if "normal" yeshivos had such a program, then ushering the BT yeshiva graduates would be that much easier. The problem would be that as soon as such a class became available to BTs, the frumme would immediately begin to avoid such a class for various complexes/fears of stigma which need not be elaborated upon. The result would be back to square one - BT classes.
At any rate, Rabbi Wolberg has since left OT, leaving no adequate replacement in this regard. That said, we return to the "pnim" :):
1. 1/2 year may be stretching it (perhaps for point (c) not (b)), I think a year would be enough.
2. If we are discussing not textual erudition but hanochos, then again I don't think that half a year would be enough to function as a resource/support center; longer would be needed. But in the general idea, I'm with you 100%.
the problem lies in the design of the system. It assumes that everyone is going to be a shliach. which is not the case. the job of a yeshiva is not to mass produce but to bring out the best in every bochur.some will work , some will go to college but the y should atleast have the tools needed to remain a good jew. skill to open a sefer like a shulchan aruch, gemara, and other seforim, not only sichos like most graduates. its a flawed system and since most of the people have lost their ability to think independently they refuse to change the status quo.
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