mentalblog.com comments:
what is OCD?
obsessive compulsive disorder
I have straight statistics that 10% of yeshiva boys are now being medicated in to compliance.
But it's ok, we're feeling muuchh better now.
(my stat's are from several non-Lubavitch charedi US mid to large yeshiva's, grades K-8, NY tri-state area.)
BTW, Israel, secular and yeshiva's, is proud to be at the forefront of treating the horrible condition of boyhood, my post on it here.
Dear Tzemach,
[you write]:
"Most psychiatrists today dismiss Freud laughingly. The idea of talking and understanding as a path to conquering physiological problems seems so outdated."
[...]
At any rate, psychiatry has by and large rejected Freud's work not because it "seems outdated" but because there is no scientific evidence to support it. Freud's psychologizing was really little more than literary criticism of the stories (or narratives if you prefer a high-falutin word) his patients told him.
Cobbled together with a nihilistic, anti-religious philosophy. Freud was a proud ethnic Jew, but he was curiously ignorant of traditional Jewish philosophy (as you will discover if you read, for example Civilization and Its Discontents) and hostile to traditional Jewish historiography (as you will discover if your read Moses and Monotheism.)
Why should a drug for a psychologically manifest illness be any more objectionable than a drug for a physically manifesting illness?
Unless you want to join in with the Christian Scientists and all of the other new-age devotees of Emile Coue and re-assure yourself that every day in every way I am getting better.
Rebbe Nachman may have thought that all medicines were poisons, and in 1810 that might have been true, but it is not true today.
Edited By Siteowner
Gandalin, those are my words. Frumpers quote ends with "that's what Adderall is, isn't it?" you can follow the link to see his entire post. I will fix the typos, thanks.
Gandalin, I would like to hear your opinion on the subject.
Tzemach,
It is easy to think that a child with ADD or ADHD doesn't need medication and doesn't benefit from medication when you are outside the situation. I am outside the situation. But from what I have read, there are individuals who do appear to benefit from medication for behavioral issues. To some extent, I agree that the burgeoning number of diagnoses of ADD and ADHD may be related to the fact that boyish behavior is no longer acceptable in a society that has become increasingly girlish. Certainly not all unruly boys need or will benefit from medication. But there are some who might. I will be back later after I re-read a recent article on this subject by a very thoughtful psychiatrist whose opinion I trust.
Looking forward to it.
Tzemach,
Thank you. While I dig out that article, let me ask you a question.
As an outsider, I don't really know, but it seems that in the haredishe velt the only activity in which a man may wholeheartedly engage is lerning Torah.
Lerning Torah in yeshiva is not, it seems, for the faint-hearted or faint-brained; it is a very difficult intellectual endeavor, and when you get into it with the masters, you are competing with a group of people who are widely thought to be the smartest and most intellectual people in the world, and with a continuous tradition of commentary and criticism that goes back 1500 years. Such that to really succeed, you need an above-average photographic memory, a keen sense for detail, profound abstract concept mastery, etc. etc.
It seems unlikely to expect every one of a haredishe couple's fourteen sons to be phenomenally gifted at that activity.
So why should it surprise us that doting parents seek every possible tool that their boys can use in order to excel -- or just survive intellectually?
And on top of that, you can't really makie a living lerning Torah, and many authorities hold that you shouldn't.
Gandalin:
Unfortunately, Hashem should help, I am in the situation with multiple children. The level of shove it down your throat is almost unbelievable.
Here's a quote from the frum psychiatrist I'm dealing with: "if he was in other circumstances, he probably wouldn't need to be medicated, but if you want him in yeshiva, that's all they can handle and therefore he needs higher levels of medication".
That's the sit for 2 hours straight learning gemora yeshiva (6th grade).
Akiva,
May Hashem help you.
It seems that I should have added something about unsophisticated pedagogy, too.
It's not the pedagogy, it's the legal material that most don't have the brains wired for. Berl can speak about that.
Background reading:
http://www.mentalblog.com/2005/
0...rohibition.html
http://www.mentalblog.com/2005/0...-
torasecho.html
http://www.mentalblog.com/2005/0...t-kids-
has.html
Tzemach,
I have reviewed an article by Dr Glenn Treisman, an Associate Professor of Psychiatry at the Johns Hopkins Hospital. He takes a skeptical view of the unprecedented rate of diagnoses of ADHD. Although he feels that there are childen with "clearly independent, functionally impairing disorders of attention" who "seem so different from other children that they have been characterized as having some form of general brain disorder."
That being said, he feels that the current state of diagnostic validity for ADHS is "miserable," noting that a 1982 review of 210 studies of "hyperactivity" found that only 36% of the studies "actually described symptoms of hyperactivity." (Barkley,1982).
Dr Treisman is concerned about the over-use of stimulants in children, and suggests that some of the side-effects of these medicines (tics, delayed growth, appetite suppression, weight loss, insomnia, headaches, edginess, and increased pulse & blood pressure) might be avoided with non-stimulant treatments.
He writes that "ADHD has become an umbrella term for both those with a specific disorder of attention that probably represents a disease state, as well as a large group of patients who have difficulty for many reasons, including temperament, circumstance, and event interest."
He notes that this is "similar to the distinction between those with growth hormone deficiency and those with short stature."
He feels that much or most of the currnet prescibing of stimulants for ADHD is cosmetic, that is, treating patients "as a form of enhancement rather than as correction of a disorder."
It is a sobering view, and more negative than my first opinion in this thread.
Gandalin, take "interest" factor and multiply by 100 for the yeshivos and you will see the root of the problem in the Jewish education. Where is the enlightenment when you need it. LOL
Tzemach,
That's a shame. Although evidently the stimulants seem to make anything if not actually interesting then more interesting anyway.
Ritalin is not going to make one of these boys the next ilui ha-dor, but it may help a boy get through a very difficult passage during adolescence. If that's worth the cost and the risk of side-effects, who am I to argue against it?
Ritalins Side Effects:
Cardiovascular Side Effects of Ritalin
1.Rapid heart beat (palpitations, tachycardia)
2.High blood pressure (hypertension)
3.Unusual heart rhythm (arrythmia)
4.Heart attack (cardiac arrest)
Ritalin side effects
Part 2
Central Nervous System Side Effects of Ritalin
5.Altered mental status (psychosis)
6.Hallucinations
7.Depression or excitement
8.Convulsions / seizures (excessive brain stimulation)
9.Drowsiness or "dopey" feeling
10.Confusion
11.Lack of sleep (insomnia)
12.Agitation, irritation, anxiety, nervousness
13.Hostility
14.Unhappiness (Dysphoria)
15.Impaired mental abilities (cognitive impairment on tests)
16.Jerky movements (Dyskinesias, tics, Tourette's syndrome)
17.Nervous habits (such as picking at skin or pulling hair) 18.Compulsive behavior
19.Depression/over-sensitivity
20.Decreased social interest
21.Zombie-like behavior
Gastrointestinal Side Effects of Ritalin
22.Eating disorders (anorexia)
23.Nausea
24.Vomiting
25.Stomach ache / cramps
26.Dry mouth
27.Constipation
28.Abnormal liver function tests
Endocrine/Metabolic Side Effects of Ritalin
29.Growth problems (pituitary dysfunction)
30.Weight loss
Part 3
Other Side Effects of Ritalin
31.Blurred vision
32.Headache
33.Dizziness
34.Rash/conjunctivitis/hives
35.Hair loss
36.Inflammation of the skin (dermatitis)
37.Blood disorders (anorexia, leukoplacia)
38.Involuntary discharge of urine (enuresis)
39.Fever
40.Joint pain
41.Unusual sweating
Ritalin Withdrawal and Rebound
42.Sleep problems (insomnia)
43.Evening crash
44.Depression
45.Over-activity and irritability
46.Worsening of ADHD-like symptoms
In addition, it is not generally known or understood by the public that use of Ritalin will preclude a child from ever joining the United States military because Ritalin is classified as a Class II controlled substance, along with morphine and other amphetamines."
These mind drugs are dangerous, Ritalin and the like. The increasing use of things like Ritalin and anti-depression drugs (don't use the propaganda term for them 'medication', which makes them sound like something beneficial) is a major scandal in the frum world today. For some time now, the NY Times has been steadily reporting about the dangers of these drugs and government panels have recently come out with disturbing warnings against them, but, for some reason, many in the frum community are (as is often the case) years behind and still seem to see them as a panacea (though there has been some opposition to ADD labeling and drugging recently in the letters section of the USA Yoseid Neemon). The drug companies (who have spent massively on advertising and promoting these major money-makers, including sponsoring 'studies' by alleged 'experts', which pose as neutral, but really are not), are laughing all the way to the bank.
Aspirin Side Effects:
The most common side effects of aspirin involve the gastrointestinal system and ringing in the ears. It can cause ulcerations, abdominal burning, pain, cramping, nausea, gastritis, and even serious gastrointestinal bleeding and liver toxicity. Sometimes, stomach ulceration and bleeding can occur without any abdominal pain. Black tarry stools, weakness, and dizziness upon standing may be the only signs of internal bleeding. Should ringing in the ears occur, the daily dose should be reduced. Rash, kidney impairment, vertigo, and lightheadedness can also occur.
Boruch, LOL :lol: :lol: :lol:
Wait till you see my forthcoming "Tylenol Side Effects" post.It will make Aspirin sound positively healthy!
The truth is that there is overuse of things like aspirin too. But that doesn't mean that we should add even more drugs to the frum diet and make things even worse, chas vesholom.
Although only indirectly related let me point out a very interesting and scary article in current issue of The Atlantic Monthly titled The Drug Pushers by Carl Elliott (As America turns its health-care system over to the market, pharmaceutical reps are wielding more and more influence—and the line between them and doctors is beginning to blur). Perhaps beside the idiocy of some yeshiva educators and parents, the professional help these kids get also has its shortcoming as it is depicted in the article. Although I was educated in a very different world, in my time, my parents, cousins would give us a slap, throw us out in the backyard (in the summer) and let us ride our bikes, chase the birds and engage in other Tom Sawyer like activities that let our energies burn. There was definitely less drug, alcohol and other abuse among these pranksters than in the yeshiva world today. This is of course not entirely the yeshiva’s fault but rather the changing society around us as well.
Then take the “interest factor” mentioned above and look at a yeshiva’s curriculum. The exclusive emphasis on studying the legalistic part of Torah (for boys in the yeshivish world) is not suited for everyone. Just as not everyone is designed to become a lawyer or accountant. I don’t mean to offend any profession, but if you have been around lawyers a lot (I have seen plenty) you know that they may be able to handle your paperwork but they are definitely not the most inspiring people in the universe. Bava Kama may inspire some students, but depending on the Rebbi, will tear the soul out of others. Then they go ahead and diagnose these students with ADD.
"promiscuously prescribed"
Lead editorial from Australia's prestigous "The Australian" newspaper of 28-Mar.
NEWS that drugs used to treat children for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder have had fatal side-effects in a very small number of cases do not dictate abandoning them altogether. But it does point to the risks that can occur when powerful pharmaceuticals, designed to deal with specific medical problems, begin to be promiscuously prescribed.
As Clara Pirani reports in The Australian today, about 520 prescriptions for Ritalin were issued in August last year. By January this had risen to 5800. The exponential increase occurred after the drug was listed for subsidy on the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme. The growth rate for the other popular ADHD drug, dexamphetamine, also available on the PBS, was again substantial, with prescriptions increasing from 96,000 to 232,000 in the decade to 2005.
These are alarming figures that may indicate we are afflicted with an epidemic of ADHD plaguing an enormous numbers of children. Or they could indicate that demand for the drugs increases as their price drops. Whatever the case, people whose lives are not made a misery by inattentive, angry, depressed and disturbed kids should not too easily argue these problems are always the result of poor parenting. It is more than passing strange that while society has abandoned opposition to using drugs to treat mental illness in adults, there is still suspicion when they are prescribed for children.
But this does not account for the sheer growth in the use of drugs to treat ADHD. Or the absence of any scientific evidence of their effectiveness over time. Or, whether ADHD has just become a convenient catch-all for childhood complaints, ranging from severe behavioural disorders down to an excess of energy that manifests itself in ill-discipline. There is no universal answer to the role of drugs for children judged to suffer chemically treatable behavioural problems. But while pumping pills into them may seem an easy answer, we cannot be sure how much good – or ill – it can do. And that alone makes an excellent argument for caution.
http://
www.theaustralian.news.co...55E7583,00.html
Longer article on Ritalin....
http://
www.theaustralian.news.co...5E28737,00.html
The term 'side effect' is a misleading one as a drug simply has 'effects'. One or several of those 'effects' are desired and the rest are not. So it would be more accurate to say a drug has 'x' amount of effects, list them all, and then let the consumer decide if the one or two desired 'effects' are worth having all the other 'effects' along with it. If the pharm companies were honest that is what they would do, but they are interested first and foremost in marketing their products, caveat emptor!
One cannot possibly seriously make an equal comparsion between the effects of a drug like aspirin to the effects of a drug like Ritalin on the health and well being of a developing child. Obviously the dangers posed by Ritalin usage should make any reasonable parent take great pause before popping it into their child's mouth.
i will tell u why no one deals with this. bec to deal with this means that u have to get involved and spend time with an individual. and there is no glory in that. A typical Lub Rabbi needs to speak to a huge crowd and speak about the Kabbalah and how he is changing the world. Its all about mass marketing. all the stuff about help people one at a time no longer exists. bec Lubavitch is not about PR, mass marketing & $$$$$. it was about serving G-d you would see a lot more people learning talmud, halacha, derech eretz, haskafa, a lot more people dealing with people one on one, being mashpias instead of flying around the country marketing kabbala and speaking at every mass gathering. ever try asking a real question on askmoses? dont bother bec chances are they dont really know the answer and instead of being honest they will try to BS u.
Alan; I don't actually see that your post has to do with abuse of legal drugs in Jewish communities. As for the substance of your post, I suggest that if you focus on worthy Lubs (who may be atypical) you will find that old Chabad has not totally gone. Finding these individuals is not easy because they don't operate in the limelight.
I once summarized the sections of the Tanya that deal with depression and utilizing depression to invert one's feelings (ishafcha?), for my non-religious, but long-term-depressed, uncle the philosophy professor. His reaction: the author clearly doesn't understand real depression, has never been really depressed.
Yes, working on one's middos is a worthy and necessary endeavour, but sometimes chemical imbalances are best treated chemically. Not all depression is psychological, some is indeed physiological.
Since I am the author of the original post, I felt obligated to give my opinion about the subject matter.
Firstly, I feel that ADD, OCD, Bipolar Syndrome, and all these other psychological mood disorders have both a biological element (brain chemistry element) to them, but even moreso, I believe that there is an ENVIRONMENTAL FACTOR, which is the leading factor that is causing all these kids to need to go on drugs.
The problem is not a Jewish problem, nor is it an attempt to outsource our midot, as you stated in your blog entry. Rather, I believe the problem is THE PARENTS AND THE PARENTS' FAILURES IN PARENTING that cause the children to be messed up in the head, ultimately causing the chemical imbalances and the mood disorders that arise later on in life. Today's baby-boomer parents are so screwed up in the head with their selfish ideas and unconventional belief systems that they are leaving their legacy of problems to their children who often need to turn to medication to fix in their brains what their parents have broken earlier on in life.
I believe that me choosing to be on medication was the responsible solution for the mood disorder that has developed for whatever reason it did. I am upset it is here, but I can't change the past and what was done to me; I could only get help and make sure that I don't pass this on to my children.
PS - While many of these mood disorders are said to be genetic, meaning they pass from parent to child, I DO BELIEVE THAT THE EXPRESSION OF THE MOOD DISORDERS AND THEIR SYMPTOMS CAN BE AVOIDED WITH PROPER PARENTING. IF PARENTS LEARNED TO GIVE THE COPING SKILLS TO THEIR CHILDREN EARLY ON, EVEN IF THE CHILDREN ENDED UP WITH A CHEMICAL IMBALANCE OR A MOOD DISORDER, THE DRUGS WOULD NOT NECESSARILY BE NECESSARY. THE SOLUTION LIES IN PROPER PARENTING. -Zoe
By the way, What ml. and dosage of Adderal and ml. and dosage of Prozac do you take for ADD/OCD per day?
Commenting by HaloScan
