mentalblog.com comments:
What is quiet interesting Rabbi Gutnick lived in London the rebbe the ryat"z pour his heart out to him about his children that is to a chosid who is living in London at a time when in London if you wanted your children to stay frum it was very very hard does anybody have a explanation
I read in KFAR CHABAD magazine that the rebbe himself was a candidate for the pulpit of the same Nuach Ari shul in London, UK that chose rabbi Gutnick for its rabbanuth.
I doubt that the rebbe was ever interested in becoming a rav. He WAS REALLY interested in modern culture, the cinema, literature, history political events and math and engineeering. Thus Berlin and paris spoke to him , not delivering silly speeches and paskening shayles.
I remember Chaim Gutnick himself in 1964 with the appearance of a Modern rabbi. He had no beard , dressed in a well tailored suit. I can not recall him even wearing a fedora.
I guess he never went to college, but clearly for years he was more of a fellow traveller than hard core chassid.
Fantazior ben fantzior!
What makes you think that Chana Gurary was less modern than her two younger sisters?
Can you tell us exactly which Gutnick son you allegedly heard all this from? I have just spoken to some of them about this and two of them confirmed that they had heard that their father had some letters from the Rayatz that he gave to the Rebbe but that they knew nothing about letters from the Rayatz about his daughters or about the Rebbe and university. (Although one did claim to remember some talk about a letter to the Gutnick grandfather from Chatshe Feigin asking some general questions or advice about the chinuch of the Rayats's daughters ). They also all claimed that they did not know anything about the Rebbe tearing up any letters that Chaim Gutnick gave him ot that he instructed Rabbi Chaim Gutnick to tear up the others. So someone other than the Gutnicks appears to be guilty of embellishment here...
An Aussie, I trust the brothers know how to use the Internet. It is an open forum.
Tzemach,
AA's point was that the "quoter" was did not identify which brother and we cannot ask the brother ourselve without knowing which one it was. Unless youm expect each brother to log on and individually dent the statement.
Tzemach; There are two generations of Gutnick brothers. Rabbi Chaim Gutnick a"h was niftar about 18 months ago.
Chaim Gutnick went to the local yeshiva in London at the time,either Eitz Chayim or Chayei Olom, then his mom sent him to Telz ,Lithuania.He managed to get out of Europe at the last moment and was sent to Australia,I believe he was in the same small group of Rav Desslers wife and kids.At a certain point he 'discovered' his Chabad roots but for many years even as pulpit rabbi had no beard.I think that when his daughter Penina married Feldman he grew a beard.
I would like to just clarify my comments about what I had been told regarding the reason for the Rebbe deciding to go to University.
My comments may be somewhat misleading. The comment told to me was not that this was in anyway part of the contents of the letters Rabbi Gutnick had in his possesion. My understanding is that it was a rumour that one of the sons had heard that originated from a close friend of Rabbi Gutnick. As with any rumour, when it is passed from person to person, one needs to take it "with a grain of salt".
This was the intent meant by my comment that the story may have been "embellished" as it was passed on from family member to family member. As with all people, stories are often unintentionally changed slightly for dramatic effect until by the time someone hears it third or fourth hand it needs to be recognised that it may be somewhat "embellished".
In this sense the Gutnicks are no different then any other family when stories are passed from one person to another. In no way was it intended to suggest that the Gutnicks are any different than any other family when passing on stories that may have been heard second or third hand.
If my comments imply anything otherwise, I most certainly apologise for any negative impression that they may reflect on the Gutnick family.
Schneur: you write that the rabbinical post in London would mean speeches and paskaning shalos on the second point you are wrong London in 1930 there was no one asking shalos rabbi gutnick to the best of my knowledge was doing two main things in London fighting for shimiras shabbos and fundraising for the rayat配 yidishkeit activities in Russia (I have a interesting letter from Rabbi Gutnick to chief rabbi hertz that the rebbe ryat配 asked that by the bar mitzvah of a rothchild the chief rabbi should speak about the problems of yidishkeit in Russia )
Yoel: I heard a few weeks ago from a polish yid who had learned in tomchei tmimimim in Warsaw that the polish bochrim has problems how the rsha波 was dressed the frak and nice Tshup
Certy: Rabbi gutinck learned in Eitz Chayim yeshiva in London the chaya olam ysehivah was founded after the war one must remember that Rabbi gutnicks stepfather Rabbi Abramson was a lubavicher chosid who was a talmid of the chofetz chaim and the rebbe the ryat配 was shadchan between Reb chaim gutnick mother and rabbi Abramson so he must have has some kesher to lubavich
By the way does anybody know if there was anything published from Rabbi Mordchai Zev Gutnick or Rabbi Osher Abramson
Could someone tell the Gutnick brothers story? Is London and Australian Gutnicks brothers? Please tell the story.
There was tomim from Russia a talmid of the resha巴 who was in eretz yisroel in the 1920s his name was Reb Mordchai zev hakohen gutnik he was chosid ben chosid through the work of reb ezriel zelig slonim who was in london at the time the rebbe ryat配 got him the post of rov in the Old castle Street Shul in London also known as the chabad shul in London rabbi gutnick was busy in shmiras shabbos and fundraising for the ryat配 while he was a rov he opened up a branch of the shul in another part of London where rabbi gutnick used to go to them very fifth shabos
He was niftar very young he is buried in London his matzevo is the only one in cemetery that has no English writing on it he (a big chidush for those times) left over a wife with children the shul had decided (the work of the ryat配) that whoever marys his wife will become rov of the shul Rav Abramson married her (the Ryat配 was shadchan) shortly before the war in the war years the shul was bombed in the blitz by the Germans and after the war the yidden were moving out of the area chaim gutnick who was sent to telz in lituania by his stepfather was a English citzen so when the Germans came in Lithuania the English sent all their citizens to Australia so he brought over his stepfather and mother and brother to Australia that is the history of gutnick in short
A short history of family gutnick
Was Gutnick a Kopuster chosid?
No one asked shaayles in London in the 1930's. Unlike the US London had tens of thousands of Orthodox Jews from the immigrant community.In addition the Reform movement there was tiny and all Jews were nominally Orthodox as such many ate kosher, (still do in amuch higher percentage than here) and their marriages and divorce were controled by the Bes Din.
At that time there was the chief rabbis court where the head dayan in the 1930's was a "rav who did not pasken " oh yea !!!! RAV YECHESKEL ABRAMSKY. He not only paskened but made impt takkanoth in Kashruth and shechitah.You are confusing the Anglo minister with a real rav that the east European jews in the UK brought over .
In addition the Federation of synagogues a group of Orthodox Polish Jews had a bes din with gedole Israel including Horav Chaikin a Lubavitcher chasid formerly rav of Anash in S. petersburg who was a more horoeh muvhok.
Other famous rabbonim there were Rav Jung,Ferber,Dayan Weiss in Manchester vechuli. Unlike the Us in the UK every large city had a bes din to pasken shayles.
I am sure that being the rav of a Chabad shul in London in the 1930's was a job that included paskening shayles nashim , Tarfus and civil matters. Not that the rebbe was not capable of dealing with all of these and more.
Reb Zalman you wrote Unlike the US London had tens of thousands of Orthodox Jews from the immigrant community.In addition the Reform movement there was tiny and all Jews were nominally Orthodox as such many ate kosher, (still do in amuch higher percentage than here) and their marriages and divorce were controled by the Bes Din.
That as far as it went
You wrote No one asked shaayles in London in the 1930'sAt that time there was the chief rabbis court where the head dayan in the 1930's was a "rav who did not pasken " oh yea !!!! RAV YECHESKEL ABRAMSKY. He not only paskened but made impt takkanoth in Kashruth and shechitah.
My dear friend if he paskened where are his shalos vtshovos the only shalos he had was gittinm kidushin and gerus takanot in kashurut was only one takono the hind meat of the animals are not porged only sold to the goy the reason that he made that takono because he came to London to become rov of the independent orthodox congregation machzkei hadass in London (which was founded to fight the problem of ignorant butchers porging the meat) afterwards when he left them and became dayan in london beth din he had to do this takono ect
you wrote You are confusing the Anglo minister with a real rav that the east European Jews in the UK brought over ^.please list me the name of the rabbis who the east European Jews who were living in London brought over and another thing rav Abramsky only came over because he was exiled to Siberia and to get him out reb chaim ozer organaised that he should have A position in London
In addition the Federation of synagogues a group of Orthodox Polish Jews had a bes din with gedole Israel including Horav Chaikin a Lubavitcher chasid formerly rav of Anash in S. petersburg who was a more horoeh muvhok.
Other famous rabbonim there were Rav Jung,Ferber,Dayan Weiss in Manchester vechuli. Unlike the Us in the UK every large city had a bes din to pasken shayles.
The establishment of the federation had nothing to do with yidishkeit it had more to do that the east European yiden in lonondon were looked on by the united synagogue as second citizens they had no beis olam the people of the federation did want their rabbis to be English ministers because they did not understand his droshos ect for example the federation did not have it own shechitah so what did it have a Rabbi chaikin who did not leave a impression on the English scene the only thing about rabbi chakin was that he was the rov of the Chabad shul in old castle street in london and as I read once that he did not want to have to much of a kesher to lubavich when he was in England Rabbi Ferber if you look in his seforim you see what kind of yidishkeit there was in England in his days last but not least Dayan weiss came to Manchester after the war when the refugees from the camps came and bild the yidishkeit what you see todau
P.S rabbi jung was not much loved by the Chassidic rebbes in Poland and Galicia but he was a ehrlicher
you end I am sure that being the rav of a Chabad shul in London in the 1930's was a job that included paskening shayles nashim , Tarfus and civil matters. By the way do you know how many noshim mikvas were there in london in the 1930 for the tens of thousands of Orthodox Jews from the immigrant community.
Kopuster , . To say that a east European rav in London n the 1930's did not pasken shayles is nothing short of absurd. At that time there were local poultry markets and shayles for chickens etc were a daily occurence. In addition most jewish baalebostes kept a kosher kitchen resulting in inevitable shayles.I am no expert on the number of Mikvehs in London , but friend London had that time had besides a Chabad shul a Sassover rebbe a Premishlaner rebbe a Kielcer rebb a Trisker rebbe and a Adam Kaadosh the heiliger Shatzer Rebbe rav Moskowitz.more.These men all led their batei miroshim. see rabbi rabinowitz's book about the chassidim of the UK which is very interesting reding. There was also significant communities of Ashkenazi Jews from the Hirschian heder and Oberlander Jews both of whom were led by the senior rabbi Avigdor Schonfeld.
Rabbi Herzog's father in law rav Hillman was the precessor of Rabbi Abramsky. as the guiding light of the chief rabbi's court. rabbi Abe werner was also a rav in London in the Machzike Hadass. London also ahd at least 1 yeshiva gedole etz chaim.A number of Yeshiva bachurim from the UK and Eire left tos tudy in the great Lithuanian yeshivos including rabbi Kopul Rosen who chabad no claims as one of its own.
Yes thing were far from great in London , but London had many frume Yidden Ashkenazim (Schonfeld Adas israel) Chassidim (Blezer, Djikovwe wtc) Bnai Lita united in the federtion of synagogues and others.
Let me add growing up in NH CT in the 1950's the senior rabbonim there rav Leizer Gorelik and rabbi Aaron Schuchatowitz paskened shayles daily in terms of tffel leffel, chickens, gittin, treiboring for butchers and even dine Torah. And this was in a small totally Goyische city in AMERICA in 1960. C'mon give me a break of course east European rabbonim in the UK paskened shayles, perhaps not about the heat of Chalav Israel or if a shochet needs to wear a gartel, but shayles were asked and if the rav was able to were paskened.
I can not figure out why "zi geyt di in leben " to say that a rav in the UK in the 1930's did not ahve shayles to pasken.
re: chabad in england
the zamech zedeka, the third rebbe of chabad sent a shiliach to manchester uk which they had a number of chassidim in manchester until today!
my zeyda learn with rabbi gutnick, in eitz chaim yeshiva in london
than you
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