mentalblog.com comments:
I hear what you are saying but I don't know enough real facts about the whole issue.
There are several factors to consider. Did Chana Gourary own THIS plot? Or did she have A plot in the section reserved for Rebbetzins. Also when she and her son decided that she would not be buried in Old Montifiore, did they indicate that they no longer want this spot (probably not) but I don't know.
As for Yorshim she has none to speak of, and as for close relatives, Chava Heschel Gurary was her FIRST cousin through marriage (does that count?) definetly one of the closest survining realtives of the Rashag's family (there is also Mrs. Chefer in Kfar Chabad who is his niece).
They also technically left a half space separation between Rebbetzin Nechama Dina and Mrs. Gurary.
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SZG himself was not the Rashag's 1st cousin , he was a second cousin. Now that makes him nothing to Mrs. Gourary and nothing times 2 to Mrs. Heschel Gurary.
Next Mrs. CHafer (Gruber, why did some Lubavitchers Hebraize their names inthe early days of Israel ?) is the niece of the Rashag along with a number of other nieces and nephews . So that aagin makes her gornisht to Chana Gourary.
Our yoresh then must be one of the Horenstein grand children in Israel or desc of Mendel Schneersohn of Corsica.
But even if we can not find yorshim who exactly authorized the sale of a plot that belonged to rabbi Joseph I. Schneersohn to Reb Zalman Gurary ?
Could that person also authorize the sale of other property owned by the Rebbe , lets say books to other well known Chassidim ?
From speaking to Barry and reading his memoirs , I must say that Barry had a less than posative regard for that man, going back to Otwock. In addition Barry told me kame peamim a story indicating the true regard rabbi JIS had for taht man. I also believe that R. Shmaryahu Gourary did enjoy a close relationship with Rabbi SZG.
Why not sell the plot in a lottery ?
Or was the fact that Rabbi SZG held a certain distinction in NY legal history so significant that it had to be sold to him ?
Finally if these comments are in poor taste given the freshness of the death of Mrs. Gurary, I must add that I mean nohing against Mrs. Gurary. We all pray that she be a meleyzes yosher for her family in zechus of her illustrious ancestors.
As stated elsewhere I believe she is to plots away (with one apace in between. I'll check. In regards to the "raid" I was personally present at the warehouse when inventory was taken by court order and as part of the final settelment (yes, settelment!) BG got everything (all personal affects of his father (who wrote over everything to aguch in his tzavaa) and mother). So cut out the hatefull hearesay!
Mrs Chava was the daughter of a Rebbe and a meyuchesess, may she be a guteh better, Umesaymin betoiv.
With regard to the issue at hand, Tzfania indicates that a plot was left empty, I have heard it was a very narrow space... In any event we all seem to be agree that Mrs. Heschel Gurary was an Eishes Chayil, a bas Kedoshim L'beis Apta, Savran. Ruzhin, Sadigur, and Novominsk. T'hey Neishmasa Tzrura B'zror Hachaim!
P.S.
You wrote:
"SZG himself was not the Rashag's 1st cousin , he was a second cousin".
Are you sure about that? please detail the lineage.
MIB, you keep saying there is 1/2 a space. You wrote this at least three times. Have you seen it? What is the basis of your infromation? It seems it is up to you to clarify or you will loose credibility around here in a hurry.
Who was the defendant in the Chana Gourary suite, the Rebbe? AGUCH?
I've HEARD that the rules of sale in the Agudas Chassidei Chabad section of the cemetery are not typical. When one buys a plot in the "chelka" not necessarily do you get a specific spot. Does anyone KNOW if this is true?
I have not been there yet, so I cannot personally attest to the fact there is a half a space. My information was based on what I heard from someone who was there when they buried the Nifteres.
I found a picture on col.org.il and to me it seems that there IS indeed space, but I can't tell.
Sorry if I may have misled you. Consider my credibility lost :(
I wrote: "There is no room for another place between Chava Gurary and Rebbetzin Nechama Dinah:
This now appears factually wrong, as I have now been ot the site.
Being that Mrs. Gurary's Matzeiva hasn't been put up yet I can't be sure, but there DOES seem to be space there, while being very narrow my view is that it could indeed accommodate another kever.
I apologize again for typing before verification.
Tam V'nishlam R. Zalman Gurary.
Schneur,
Can you write how exactly the Rashag and Razag were realted
The suit you asked about was actually a connected case with Agudas v. Gurary, so although the second suit should have been Gurary as the plaintiff, being that it was a connected-case, the plaintiff and defendants remained the same.
The Rebbe himself was never a party to any of the suits, not the initial one for the library or the second one for the attack.
In addition, as Tzfania pointed out, Rashag wrote a Will (both a legal document with attorneys and a Tzavaa with Rabbonim), giving everything (minus monies already taken at that time by his wife) to Agudas. So any "Karka" he owned would now be the property of Agudas to do as they please.
moron hoemes, RaSHAG did not own Chana and karka allocated to her by her father. Also if that was the case why Lispker and LG tried to move her to Montifiori.
Full idiot as all of you party men are.
The Gurary family of today is from three brothers, R' Shmuel, R' Mendel and R' Noson.
R' Mendel is the Rashag's father, he also had a son Noson, and a daughter. R' Shmuel's family did not survive the war.
R' Noson's family is the predominant Lubavitch Gurary family, his children were: R' Tzvi Hirsch, R' Shmaryahu (Tel Aviv), R' Moshe (Tel Aviv) R' Schneur Zalman (Jimmy), and daughters Mrs. Goldshmid, and Mrs. Karasik. Zalman was the youngest, his father passed away when he was very young.
Rashag and R' Zalman were first cousins.
"Rashag and R' Zalman were first cousins".
I thought so.
Schneur, is this correct?
Tzemach, the husband owning the plot is just an old fashioned halacha. Sorry for the typos in the previous post.
Tzfania, interesting. So you say that if a woman has karka in her family plot. Her husband takes possession of that karka? I don't believe it. I will ask my Rov.
Anyone one in the know? Are specific plots sold in Agu"ch section? If so why are there uncertainties regarding certain plots?
shmuel, and noson were brothers. (their matzeivas are in close proximity to each other in rostov)i always thought that mendel was a brother as well.
schneur (or a member of the gurary family)if you know otherwise please enlighten us.
R' Shmuel, R' Menachem Mendel and R' Noson were brothers. Their father was R' Shneur Zalman (Chosid of the Rebbe Maharash).
R' Shmuel also had a son Isser Yehuda who I believe lived in Israel.
The so called will of Reb Shmaryahu Gourary tells it all.
One of the witnesses to it was a convicted fellon ,as a matter of fact a man who "sat" in the US prisons together with a number of loved ones also convicted of the same crimes. As a amtter of fact a Chabad house in MN was started to service these people.
Such fellons are not legitimate 'eydim" at least not in the secular world.Of course in the closed world of Chabad sitting is a badge of honor, as evidenced by the current chairman of the CH community council.
So who was this man who signed the rashag's will . None other than the zaddik hador the RAZAG !!!
As far as Yichus goes. See Elef Millin (I think thats whats it's called )where the Rebbeim are quoted as saying its better to be meshadech witha katzav from nevel than with a peylisher guter Yid !
Its wonderful to see chabad people here get excited over Yichus (Peylisher at that) , but can't fargin Barry Gourary his very real yichus , or better yet would like to forget about Chana Gourary !
"but can't fargin Barry Gourary his very real yichus , or better yet would like to forget about Chana Gourary !"
which of the above comments implied this?
...quoted as saying its better to be meshadech witha katzav from nevel than with a peylisher guter Yid
Pardon me Reb Schneur, but I fail to see what the issue here. The very point made by the pisgom you quote, is that better a katzav from Nevel, who from a gezha/yichus point of view is a total nobody, than a peylishe gutter yid (true, acknowledged yichus, whether or not one identifies with the peylishe derech). So from the vantage point of this quote, what at all is the issue with Chassidim not wanting to do with certain meyuchasim deemed to be of objectional value to Chassidus?
P.S. Nothing heretofore written is to be construed as expressing nor implying any opinion on the said relationship of said Chassidim to the abovementioned.
A major point here is that the karke that was designated for Mrs. Chana Gourary was purchases by the Rebbe rabbi Joseph I. Schneersohn and this purchase is described in detail in a number of places.
If the Rabbi Rayaatz's books were bombs , what does that say about his other property like Karka.
Can it be sold to fremde,and as I siad can that be used as a precedent to selling other property of the Rayaatz like books from his library.Who authorized the sale of karke ?Perhaps he could also sell 770 ? Or make it into condos ? Or build a residential tower attached to it. After all several Lubavitchers are actively involved in real estate development in NYC !!!
a. the chevra kadisha did leave space for mrs. schneerson gurary , so calm down!
b. you wrote that the above commentators "can't fargin Barry Gourary his very real yichus , or better yet would like to forget about Chana Gourary"
again, which of the above comments implied this?!
c. u wrote: "After all several Lubavitchers are actively involved in real estate development in NYC !!!"
I sense a lot of bitterness there, pathetic
I "fargin" everyone their parnosseh.Don't interpet my words" al pi sod "! Save that for Shabbes morning . By the way how do you taitsh the word Mamash ? My final words on the previous comments were meant to be humerous. I will "calm down" when Heh Teves is abolished.
Meanwhile I once again learn that even in Lubavitch the old klal of Mi sheyesh lo hameah yesh lo haDeah ...applies even in our Messianaic era...
whos chana gurary!!!!!!!
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