mentalblog.com comments:
You sure sound like that Seinfeld charachter.
But we have to decid ewhat is the reality and what is not understood. In normal eyes the reality is that Moshiach is not here, and its surely not the Rebbe, but his talks and general direction is not fully understood. But to the morons, the reality is what the texts say, and the actual reality is "not understood". Keep that in mind.
Let's try for the "nutshell" again. For Chabadniks, pre-before Gimmel Tammuz theory & and post-Gimmel Tammuz reality can't be reconciled. Agnostic evasion prolongs the comfortable theory in the face of brutal facts. Let's reduce the autobiographic angst and try to solve the equation with logic.
But to the morons, the reality is what the texts say, and the actual reality is 'not understood'.
Very good, just substitute 'Jews throughout the millennia' for 'the morons'.
No pain, you are setting up a false dichotomy
"the reality is what the texts say...".
The Texts do NOT say this "reality".
TA, I like the title you chose to use for my posting.
I assume that you didn't take my comments too seriously. It was said somewhat in jest.
Don't worry, unfortunately I still have plenty of time to ponder many issues (as one ought to) & some of them do give me a little "angst". Especially when they deal with issues effecting a "movement" that provided the philosophical foundation for ones religious committment during the formative years of his youth.
I suppose, however, that as one grows older, life takes its toll & you learn to live with questions a lot easier than when you were younger. One also becomes more cynical whether anything will really change.
Its over 10 years since the Rebbe's death & this issue still divides Lubavitch. To be honest, I was uncomfortable with all the Moshiach nonsense even before Gimmel Tammuz, but I said to myself, time will tell', let him "deliver the goods". I never conceived that after the Rebbe's death the issue would continue as if nothing has happened & a whole theology would be created to deny the reality of Gimmel Tammuz.
no pain no gain
I don't think we are dealing here with a mathematical equation where precise logic can determine the correct answer. Interpreting religious texts & reconciling reality with them is not an exact science.
Berl,
Reconciling reality with texts has been something that "Jews throughtout the millenia" have been engaged in. It is therefore useful to look at how they have addressed this in the past. Particularly during the Medieval Period, this was a big issue.
Starting from Saadiah Gaon through to the Rambam & his many disciples, the issue of reality (which at that time also meant rationality) & conflicts with texts were a subject of great discussion. Generally, reality required texts to be re-interpreted to fit in with the "truth" of reality & rationality unless there was a precise tradition to the contrary.
The whole issue of medical treatments in the Gemorrah & medical reality at the time was resolved very creatively with "Nishtano Hativim" - somehow, our physiology has changed over time.
Interestingly, there were some who simply saw no conflict - the medical treatments in the Gemorrah were not to be taken as Torah i.e the Chachomim simply were echoing the medical knowledge of their times, not something that had the authority of Torah.
The Rebbe was not very comfortable with what I suspect he believed were "apologetics". He preferred a more literal & fundamental reading of texts. Even if they conflicted with reality. Either we don't understand the texts properly or our understanding of reality is wrong. With the introduction of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle & the move away from a Newtonian determinism to a more stochastic view of reality, the Rebbe's view was not so unscientific (though many mainstream religious scientists didn't share the Rebbe's views as being truly "scientific").
Anyway, this is all a very enjoyable exercise in the history of Jewish Philosophy, but perhaps this view of the Rebbe, which influenced the way Chassidim were taught to view "reality", has contributed to the possibility that people of intelligence can continue to deny the
death of the Rebbe & all of what that implies & grab onto "pilpulim shel hevel" to reconcile the reality of that event with what they believe (& the operative word is "what they believe") is the correct reading of the various Rebbes Sichos, Gemorras & Midrashim that in most cases are very cryptic & are texts that lend themselves to various interpretations.
Berl, by the way, for creativity I actually like your option "Vadaiy, Avel ulei loy Kepushutoi" (I don't have a Hebrew keyboard, sorry). However, I would disagree with you that most Lubavitchers fall into that camp. It is a little too subtle for most Lubavitchers to appreciate.
As a scientist, I found particularly disturbing the rebbe's views on astronomy i.e. his literal interpretation of the rambam being the last thing on astrophysics and being a true believer in all matters pertaining to the supposed geocentric orbit. The rebbe openly refuted the current heliocentric orbit which defies current science. This is biggest contradiction that I have come across in the rebbe's teachings.
The rebbe was keen on the concept of "Nishtano Hativim" to explain the rambam's archaic and clearly faulty
medicine but failed to say "nishtana Ha'astro-physics". Our basic physiology surely has not changed to the degree that where one thousand years ago some fried goat droppings would suffice to needing a fine blend of 3rd generation cephalosporings for a throat infection.
I had great faith in the rebbe and respected his intellect. I saw as the best example of a frum scientist, but unfortunately his science was flawed.....
Prof Branover and the rest of the B'or Hatorah gang have tried to explain (poorly) how using Einstein's theory of relativity they can show that a heliocentric orbit is "lav davka". I have had this "relativity" thing shoved in my face by more uneducatd lubavitcher bochurim than I can poke a stick at. These poor boys can't find the square root of minus one let alone begin to understand relativity.
Bottom line....Trying to use Torah as a scientific textbook is going to get you unstuck, and you will certainly lose credibility as the rebbe did.
LB; If Orthodox Jews start to use relativity as a yardstick with physical objects, there seems to be nothing wrong with relativity in morality and spirituality. This is an animating force in the entire "post-modern" movement and it leads to total nihilism. The stakes are higher than you propose in your bottom line.
LB, if you read Hebrew you may aneoy this discussion here:
http://hydepark.hevre.co.il/
hyde...opic_id=1891890
However, Miki Abraham syas things that I do not understand.
Berl, when the text and reality do not match, the choice of Judaism is reality - that is why G-d's "Hand" in the text does not mean a Hand, because in reality G-d has no Hands.
pmh,
I really don't see how the theory of special relativity and relative morality have anything in common and how you can infer an understanding in one will lead to nihilism! C'mon, that's a bit of a dark ages view of science.
LB, the Rebbe's view on geocentric model was not science. hence, your disappointment in the "frum scientist" is misplaced. the Rebbe tried to fight the atheistic ideology of his time and, i suppose, did not think he could give in an inch. by the way, the biblical astrophysics was not the most outrageous of instances where the Rebbe locked horns with modern science.
you say, "I saw as the best example of a frum scientist, but unfortunately his science was flawed." please understand, it was not science at all, so there was no "flaw" as far as science is concerned.
faruq, where have you been :?: :?: :?:
hi, never mind, i just overreacted to this: http://www.mentalblog.com/2006/
0...talblogcom.html
Somebody wrote that this blog is about lies:
http://
theantitzemach.blogspot.c...nniversary.html
If so, where is the truth? Or where was the truth?
Hisrshel is nice fellow but he is all about counter speaking. I.e. you see the truth call it lies. And then comes the Kurenitzer and says that this way to go, contrary to his own proclamations. What a farce, all of it.
p.s. it a tragedy but I can't relate to most of Lubavitchers anymore, you can leave if that upsets you.
LB, re geocentrism: you might want to look at http://observantastronomer.blogs...entrism-
ii.html
TA, this does not upset me at all. i have trouble relating to frum people in general. it is just that i would not ask them to leave my house. anyhow, i said i overreacted. MAKE LOVE NOT WAR!
but the energy of the dialogue is gone. i think we covered all the issues.
intelligent writings. why can you go no further, tho? if literal texts fail in the face of physical reality, shouldn't all literal aspects of the religion be suspect too? they are just untested theologies. moshiach promises to bridge the physical/spiritual chasm. the rebbe attempted to personify this bridge. unlike the notion that one can have a question and still learn the maamar, perhaps judaism (and any religion that presents itself as a bridge to the spiritual)followers should understand that its a nice intellectual exercise, but purely of the mind. We in the physical domain have rules (gravity, death). If the spiritual is not bound by rules, there is no common game being played. Is there a point in continuing playing chess with an opponent that is not governed by the same rules by which you play? why indeed continue the maamar? why indeed believe any judaic text as literal? only because it feels better than having an empty aching hole.
stupid
jyk; "where precise logic can determine the correct answer"... well reality is messy and precise isn't easy but agnostism has left you in limbo for since gimmel tamuz. Making a decision about which way to go means on way or the other. You can only have a bet each way if you stay remain undecided.
Can I speak on my behalf, please?
I said that I was tired of the lies, not that "This Blog is all about lies". Some of the lies, in my opinion, WERE posted here, , and some of those by commenters. Others were posted by other blogs, some of which you cross post from.
Us meeting in New York has kept me from attacking you personally, I saw you were a nice guy after all.
Nun beis was a ketz, a zman mesugol for the coming of Moshiach.
Unfourtanately lo zachinu, but the rebbe's message still carries on that we have to carry on doing all we can to bring moshiach.
If we would have been zoiche then yes possibly the rbebe weould have been moshiach. this was not to be.
I'm not sure what's so difficult to understand.
I don't understand why the reality of the passing of the Rebbe should affect the authority, reconciliability, and relative weight of texts that evaluate chezekas mosiach or present timetables of events--that is the evaluation of the texts provides a framework for considering the Rebbe's suitability for Messianic candidature before and after--his before and afterness doesn't instruct the texts or whether a bochur who insists that textually speaking reality just isn't up to snuff has convincingly read his texts.
btw news out of Iran is that Christians and Jews will have to wear distinctive badges. I don't know if this is verified info.
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