mentalblog.com comments:
Thanks for the plug, TA.
(How typical of Russians to speak of others in their native tongue so that they don't understand, and what a coarse, uncouth language it is. The royals and nobility wouldn't even use it! The Rabbeyim had their own reasons though)
Even I understood "kilera".
I do not know who Guravitzer is, so he cannot be my mentor.
Tzig, "The Rabbeyim had their own reasons though." please clarify.
["I do not know who Guravitzer is, so he cannot be my mentor." this statement lacks elementary logic. if you KNEW who he was, then you could have stated with assurance that he is not your mentor. if you do not know who he is, you can be sure he is not your mentor only if a. you do not have a mentor at all; b. you know that your mentor's name is NOT Guravitzer.]
well
I was thinking, if it's such an awful-sounding language why would the Rabbeyim use it? So I figure they had their own reasons, namely that Russian was the Sfas HaMedinah :)
No profound intentions.
That's true. But he did not mentor me in the art of blogging, and isn't my general mentor unless he's Reb Yale Kahan. Which I have reasons to doubt.
judging the elegance of a language by how it SOUNDS (especially to a person who does not speak it) is akin to judging the beauty and elegance of a musical instrument by how it looks.
The perception, absurd as it is, seems to be widespread. I do not know how much is genuine and how much stems from the general revulsion to the image that is retained from Chanukah mivtzoim on Ocean Parkway.
Hearsay from R. Mendel Futerfas: Every language has its field, so to speak; French is the language of love, and so on. Russian is the language for swearing...
определение интелигента: тот который называет кошку кошкой, даже после того как он об нее споткнулся...
I do not want to sound like Steven Pinker (or worse - his teacher), but I really don’t believe there is such a thing an ‘ugly language’ (unless one is to think that The Mixer of all languages somehow messed up ch”v in those rubbles of migdal Bovel).
Also, I would not want anyone to judge the aesthetic value of Hebrew and the beauty of its sound by how it’s spoken at the Tel Aviv tahana merkazit.
we knew it was you, berl
770 bochur,
Try as I might, I just can't imagine Reb Mendel Mifuterfas* talking about the French 'language of love'. Sorry.
* a friend of mine heard this variation on Reb Mendel's name from an actual living & breathing Israeli bochur.
thanks, faruq
J'ai йcoute que il а dit MiPuterfas
Well, im kvar - "miPPuterPas" :)
To put your mind at ease, let me assure you that I considered writing it thusly, but opted for preservation of the authentic folklore.
R' Mendel probably was referring to what R' Yakov Emden writes about the French language, namely that it is a language of adultery (niuf). Probably somebody mistook adultery for love.
adltury shmadultery, love was invented after R' Yakov Emden.
1)Reb yoshae Kalb please let me know where reb yakov emden say this
2)what reb Mendel I thing was saying is the same that I have heard in the name of Reb Shimele Zelichover from Lublin who said that each nation has its middos for example the French are baly tava the English are speakers of untruth the polish are balei gavas and the Germans are resoyim and it is represented in their language so when someone speaks their language he it is a language of a certain middah and he can be influenced by the language so said reb shimle that ivrit is the language of the Zionist who midah is that yidden should become like all the nations so when we speak Ivrit we are influenced by the Middos of all the seventy nation even the Japanese and Chinese
"English are speakers of untruth" really???
Kopuster, אם כל הכבוד שאני רוחש לבעל השמוע , the Reb Mendel I remember was "א איד א פיקח" ; he would never even think such drivel, much less actually say it.
Tzemach Atlas English are speakers of untruth" really???
when the englishman say in a conversation the words "to be honest" then you know he saying a lie when the englishman says "excuse me" then he has most probally given you a kick where it hurts
reb berel so how do you explain Reb yakov emden by the way do you know what the rebbe ryat"z said on reb shimle Zelichover
Kopuster,
When discussing statements by חכמים , one has to see the original לשון. Absent that, I will trust my instincts and assume (as is the case, in my experience, with most שמועות ) that these people never said anything even remotely similar to what is alleged. If I see the original text (and in context) that shows my assumption to be wrong, I will change my opinion.
Having said that, I do not have a problem with an idea that Rabbi Yaakov Emden might have thought a particular language to have evolved through constant usage to be well suited for a particular application, such as ניאוף with the French language. But I still much prefer the view of רש"י ז"ל that French is rather well suited for the study of חומש . :)
As to the transference of national מידות through language – it sounds like sheer nonsense. It does not matter that this is repeated in the name of "א גוטע איד". Without seeing this idea in print from a reliable source, I will continue to consider it to be without merit.
Berl,
Please correct me if I'm wrong:
It is logical to say that the location that one's parents may have lived has real impact on the person, but that the language of said region reflects nothing?
CE,
I don't believe that you will acquire מדת הניאוף by speaking French. I don’t know how else to say it. (I’m not going to even mention the silly "speaking Ivrit transmits the mideis of all nations" bit).
OK, But can it be said that a language (in some way) reflects the culture of it's speaker? Of it's speakers nation?
Faruq
it's akin to somebody who knows nothing about PLAYING an instrument who hears a 4 year old beginner play it, it still will sound awful.
Ponyimayish?
Tzig, nonsense. but you are entitled to your misguided opinions.
p.s. re: russian language and Rebbeyim you say: “So I figure they had their own reasons…” i thought that in ChaBaD they don’t speculate on Rebbe’s intentions and reasons. besides, assuming that the Rebbe would use כח
הדיבור based solely on its superficial values, such as its sound or melodious qualities, is gross. it is almost as saying that the core value of a maamar is its melody.
btw I thought that most Rebbeyim did not speak the language. and those family members who did know russian and used it held it (and the literature written in it) in very high regard.
gut shabos.
TA,very subtle comment to my post.
"Карл V, римский император, говаривал, что испанским языком с Б-гом, французским - с друзьями, немецким - с неприятелями, итальянским - с женским полом говорить прилично. Но если бы он российскому языку был искусен, то, конечно, к тому присовокупил бы, что им со всеми оными говорить пристойно, ибо нашел бы в нем великолепие испанского, живость французского, крепость немецкого, нежность итальянского, сверх того богатство и сильную в изображениях краткость греческого и латинского языка".
Михаил Васильевич Ломоносов,
The sounds of a language often ARE indicative of the temper of the speakers and the culture behind it.
French sounds oh-so-French, even if you hardly know a half dozen words. Spanish is excitable and energetic; Italian is playful. Do Hitler's addresses sound like nursery rhymes? Of course, there is plenty of high-cultured German which is not evil at all (and don't forget where Yiddish comes from). And if you want to hear a really ugly-sounding language, listen to Arabic... Hard to get romantic about that one...
Tone and nuance can be made obvious in many languages without a single word being understood. But some languages make spoken communications of a certain type more amenable. I think...
P.S. Did anyone see Finland win the Eurovision last night? Some Orc-y monsters singing in Klingon, it seemed... Not a love song for most of us in this part of the galaxy...
Rav Worsner From Bnei Brak who was a talmid from Reb shimle Zelichover writes that when the Rebbe the Ryat"z was in Vieena he went to the rebbe and he told the rebbe that he is a talmid of reb shimle so the rebbe said A Moach and a memory like reb shimle has not been on this world for a few hundred years
Again please let me know where the reb yakove emdin is about french
Commenting by HaloScan
