mentalblog.com comments:
If you read the original post it says "NOT telling your boss 'F' you."
Please change for clarity. Unless of course you, TA, as editor, want it to read that way, but it's the opposite of what I meant.
Tony, I changed it but it doesn't make sense to me.
I explained just now in the original thread.
You sound like a boss, Tony :lol:
I don't get it.
Are you teasing me for ripping into the yungeleit who all want to be bosses?
TA, if you had any idea (and maybe you already do) how this very same prikus eil of fighting with head shluchim and running to Rav Shvei and SM Simpson and other losers for some phony hechsher is ONE AND THE SAME mageifo as the farkakter messianism! Everyone does whatever the hell they want and the maskilim like Prof. Simon Jacobson use their eloquent BS to explain how it's true chasidus!
Tony, you make so many sweeping generalisations and your characterizations of yungerlite are stereotyped parodies. Your rant has no credibility.
Tony, the key to a healthy relationship between employer and employee is the ability of the employee to find another job. Given the fact that the opportunities of Shlichus are very limited this is an invitation to abuse and we have seen plenty of examples.
Ad to the mix nepotism discussed on this blog and you can see that the job of a junior shliach often has little to do with bittul. Abuse comes to mind.
Until the Rebbe's petirah few if any shluchim were sent to or went to places "where they were the only shomer shabbas Jews in town " Certainly not to reside in such places. The use of such a phrase in this blog once again reflects the total bittul of Lubavitch for all other brands of orthodoxy mainly Modern orthodoxy and the classic American-lithuanian orthodoxy that died out in the 1960's.I experienced this bittul first hand in NH. Of course they did much good running a day school etc, but their bittul for all other Jews (Observant) was just unbeleiveable !
In places like New Haven, Hartford, Springfield, Rochester, Providence, Pittsburgh, Albany, Miami, Nashvile, Philadelphia, The Bronx, Worcester, Boston, Detroit, Milwaukee S. Paul, LA, Cleveland, Newark, Staten island, Bridgeport, all had orthodox shuls, laymen, rabbonim both modern and european and other kli kodesh when the Lubavitchers arrived.
Of course these people did not drink chalav israel, eat glatt, wear gartlech or worship ...
Only when Lubavitch started growing was there a new phenomenom shluchim to places where there was no othodoxy.Frankly if it was not the fact that these people had the imprimateaur of the rebbe, one would wonder if a shealas chachomim were not in order.
The reason for the hefkeirus is because there was never an "administration" which was accepted as being legitimate.
If the differences regarding the Rebbe's desires for after Gimmel Tammuz would has been resolved, (Through a Din torah Zabl"a Etc.) things would not have gotten to where they are.
Schneur, I adapt my previous statement. You're right. The shluchim of the lameds and even mems were not the only frumer Jews in town. But my point remains the same.
The first few waves of shluchim were sent to set things up for further waves in the development of the Rebbe's vision (the one that Prof. Simon attributes to the Rebbe's reading of an Azimov novel). The predominant culture in Lubavitch (to be distinguished from the true chasidus) developed over the years into one of emphasizing the superficiality of what shlichus entailed in the early days ie: setting up your own mosdos, cultivating gvirim, making new contacts, gaining acceptance in the community. So the fantasy of shlichus became a romantic notion that this is what shlichus is: to be a trailblazer, a pioneer. But that was merely the form that shlichus took on, not the essence. The essence was bitul tzum Rebb'n, in whatver form that would take. But the masses bought into the form and made it an icon, held it out on a stick to motivate themsleves and their children.
In dor shishi, mesirus nefesh meant not ratting out your friends even when the KGB smashed a bottle over your head and cut off your inyonim. In the lameds and mems, mesirus nefesh meant building mosdos from scratch on karka besula. In the nuns, and more so the samachs, mesirus nefesh means not being an egotistical megolomaniac who pronounces his independence from the corrupt system because he knows better what the Rebbe really wants. It takes a moiridikke bitul not to fantasize about overrunning those old, fogey Head Shluchim. But if you signed up for the job, remember, what you signed up for. YOU wanted to be the meshaleach's arm! You could have gone into business or gotten a degree. YOU volunteered. And I am sorry if your mashpi'im in yeshiva and your forty-five year old uncle from Florida with the tchup and tweed sportcoat sold you a bill of goods. You should've read the Rebbe's sichos and found out what shlichus really is. I blame your educators, but it's not an excuse you can carry through life. Shlichus was not invented so you could live in the suburbs and feel comfortable talking to women in pants about their personal problems.
And there are reprecussions of this not just in the world of shlichus but in aveidas HaSh-m as well. So many yungeleit did not apply themselves in yeshiva because they relied on this dream of "going out," assured that the title of shliach would suddenly uplift them into a metzius despite their lack of learning or avodah. Since the time they were head counselours in Gan Izzy, they had one thing on their mind, "In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king!" I will go out, be the only Lubavitcher in town and I will be the manhig, the adored mentor of my community. Now it's time for reality. You're sitting in kollel and fantasizing about having your own shetach to spread out in. And that ain't the reality. And they're heart-broken to discover (or in denial of the fact) that the times now demand a DIFFERENT kind of mesirus nefesh. The mesirus nefesh is now to get along, do your job, concentrate on the neshomeis for which you're responsible (or even sometimes co-responsible).
You think this doesn't affect the quality of their work and clarity of their vision, all this pissing on fire hydrants to mark territory?! There's room for thousands of more shluchim! How many people work for Federations all over America. There's room for everybody! But you ain't gonna be the sherriff in town.
And as far as nepotism, I don't want to hear that charge. Open a Tzach list and go count all the non-gezha names of shluchim. Ay, they aren't head shluchim! Those jobs aren't open . But neither is building a secret mikveh in your cellar or running an underground yeshiva. You can wish all you want to have born in a different era, but it'll never be. If what you truly want is shlichus, then know what that means: NOT what they told you in Ohelei Torah farbrengens.
Tony, a very good articulation of Teiras Detroit. They should really hire you as their Propaganda Minister. However, your approach amounts to a one-sided utopia with the 'head sheluchim' getting a cart-blanch to abuse their 'hired help', treat them as glorified gofers and spit them out when they become too expensive to support (and like any good feudal lords, they get to bequeath the privileges of לעולם בהם תעבודו to their progeny). No yungerman should feel compelled to subject himself and his family to this kind of treatment. So let’s get it straight: the reason yungeleit want a sense of independence is not so much to assert themselves, but rather to shield themselves from this rampant abuse. Btw, telling young idealistic people that submission to this maltreatment is dem Reb’ns rotzein noch dertzu is just plain evil.
P.S. According to your Theory of Evolution of Mesirras Nefesh, what form does the mesirras nefesh of the Bosses take in this generation?
Propoganda Minister for Teiras Detroit, eh? Is that a paid position?
So what do you suggest, Berl. Everyone should just do whatever the heck they want? I know that's what Prof. Simon believes and what Sholom Mendel Simpson believes and what the Kupchiks beleive. But don't tell me honestly that that is what YOU believe. You're just frustrated with the system. Nu? Everyone is. So that's a reason for hefkeirus. Go take a walk down to the high school gym that was once 770 and tell me that self-management works.
Should it be Teiras DetrEit?
Tony, you are very good! i like "..don't tell me honestly that that is what YOU believe." "YOU" is superb!
no, its a 'komazt-yud', not a 'cheilom'. similar to sheim ad-nai) :)
Yeah, the "you" part draws the guy in and makes him feel included. Then he'll join you in damning everyone else. Then you slam back a revi'is mashke and give him a bearhug.
Works every time.
Tony, the ministerial position I nominate you for would be well paid and I would also make sure that your were well treated. I would not make it my mission in life to give you opportunities for mesirras nefesh. ;)
I don't want to rehash the disscusion about the Tzavoah, but that is what's at the heart of Rabbi Simpson's oppisition. He called Krinsky to a din torah and to resole the issue and he refused to come.
He never advocated hefkeirus or anything of the sort.
Maskil, have you considered suicide?
Bereleh, I already know you don't have the power to grant me that position.
'already'? hmmm....
berl, suicide? Why would his comment merit that?
yehupitz, I really don't know, it was just a spontaneous reaction on my part. Maybe it's the general 'please-put-me-out-of-my-misery' plea I hear in his comments בכלל and the last one בפרט ?
I'm enjoying the ahavas-reyim-dikkeh banter, but I want to return to the issue. What do you do with an imperfect system that allows for abuses? Historically, when a political system becomes corrupt enough and the disenfranchised become desperate enough, you make a revolution. (BTW, whenever I am drinking Smirnoff, I often chuckle when reading "Purveyors to the Imperial Russian Court 1886-1917." I guess after being lined up and shot, you can't really drink vodka anymore.) Or, you can work within the system for change. There is never assurance that you'll work out all the kinks, but at least your not going through the whiplash of Thermadorian reactions every twenty years. So you're faced with a choice: reformation or revolution? (TA, calm down, I can feel your nihilist streak getting aroused. "Trash the whole damn thing! Argh!") But let's examine the prospect of revolution analytically.
Historically, revolutions are generally not good. The Romanovs were replaced by Bolshevism. The Bourbons were replaced by Jacobeanism. And raboseinu nisieinu (l'havdil) are threatened with being replaced by Yellowism.
Now, to us good red-blooded Americans and naturalized citizens(k'ger k'ezroch), we sort of like the idea of overthrowing monarchies. Monarchies are bad, right? The only thing is that Yiddishkeit is a theocratic monarchy. Whether you're talking in the halachic sense, ie: a Davidic king or Exilarch of Babylon, or in the mystical sense ie: a Chassidic Rebbe. (BTW see the book by Yosef Heller - not Catch 22 - from pre-Gimmel Tamuz lifnei hatzimtzum where he suggests that there's not too much difference between the former and the latter).
So let's say you're fed up with the sovereign and his royal court. Let's say you're resentful that you were gezha and rich but never let into the official system. What do you do? Foment revolution. Don't worry. You won't have to fight. There will always be an endless supply of sefardic baalei teshuva with undiagnosed mental disorders and disgruntled CH balabatim who can't pay their mortgages and are nearly illiterate in two languages and wide-eyed, energetic teenage boys. Indoctrinate them, tell them this is what G-d wants. They will fight your revolution for you.
Indeed, like most revolutionary movements, you will need a powerful mystical message. The message will have to fuse new radicalism with a sense of homage for the nostalgic past. You'll have to convince the masses, some of whom are even intellectuals, that the new isn't really new. It's our historical destiny. In come the masters of indoctrination - disenfranchised intellectuals who either have an axe to grind or are just so blase they don't mind whoring themselves out for a little respect.
I fear the revolution and the brutality it would bring. When ch"v the last vestiges of the monarchy are laid to ruin, we will not be free, but quite the opposite.
Of course, chasidus is not a country. When the revolution comes, you can always just leave. But go where? A man without a country or home.
If you are discontent with the system, I beg you, demand reform. Hold the king's courtiers accountable. Make them answerable. But do not lay down for the awful revolution.
Shneur your comments about shluchim not going to places where there is no kosher food etc before Gimmel Tammuz are not accurate, my parents went out in the lameds to a place in europe where there was nothing, literally nothing, no shiurim, no kosher food, we used to go to the farm to milk cows to get milk, or there was no milk, pas yisroel bread? forget about it until my father took care of that and the list goes on. Most of his friends went out to similar places...it is actually after Gimmel Tammuz that many started going to places in the us where maybe there arent' frum jews but with all the kosher food available in supermarkets, the gashmius is much easier.
me'inyan le'inyan...
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...81031859479460/
Enough of this power to the people vs. power to the g-d appointed monarchy. That is an outdated paradigm that was good when shlichus started ou with one person going to a place (with frum ppl w/o frum ppl) to spread yiddishkeit. This remained as such until recently because of obstacles 1 financial, 2 manpower, 3 acceptance by the larger Jewish community and 4 kleine haogos.
This has bred a shlichus model, that is entepenurial and one dimensional. Limited to what one person can do in a lifetime. This culture has shaped the way employers see their obligations and the way prospective employees percieve their positions.
This must change, we need to create a more corporate model, that allows for expansion, with bosses and employees each knowing their place. Head shluchim need to be replaced by boards of regional shluchim that elect a ceo, local shluchim need to build departmentalized mosdos that allow personal expression and autonomy for the head of each department. A more professional attitude with generaly accepted standards, will solve the problems of minimal new positions where instead of a position for life there is room to move up the corporate ladder hiring new people under you to expand your department. (Great example from the federation)
This will also facilitate moving from one place in shlichus to another, as your qualifications, experience, and thus mission in life changes. Thus, eliminating the kind of abuses that are not so common in the shlichus community.
Tony, that's a lot theorizing. However, a young person going on shlichus has to make practical decisions grounded in the reality. He needs tapor da plachu. And he does not have time to "demand reform". And he is not empowered to "hold the king's courtiers [ that leshitoscho only - but that's another discussion] accountable".
"If what you truly want is shlichus, then know what that means: NOT what they told you in Ohelei Torah farbrengens."
Tony,
I don't know what they tell you, but what characterizes farbrangens(and definitly one of it's cenral themes), especialy in OT, is: Rule no. 1: "du bist nisht kein metzios far zich klal klal" v'chu.
Tony, good job.
This week's nymag.com: Al Gore: The Come-Back Kid.
In the midst of the interview, Gore is asked: Does he, like many Democrats, think the 2000 election was stolen?
Gore pauses a long time and stares into the middle distance. “There may come a time when I speak on that,” Gore says, “but it’s not now; I need more time to frame it carefully if I do.” Gore sighs. “In our system, there’s no intermediate step between a definitive Supreme Court decision and violent revolution.”
someone should ask supposed-to-be-president-gore if the word "legislature" rings a bell.
in our case however this is non existent. as a matter of fact, i once heard r. leibel shapiro trying to explain how the vaad rabbonei lubavitch is no different than the supreme court, which as you know, are also presidential appointments.
no mention was made of the fact that this prez has no term limit.
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