mentalblog.com comments:
Re: Sulish see Avodas Hakokdesh (Levin).
Does Christopher Columbus, Lewin, Dr. Assaf (or anyone else for that matter) have the picture of the Alter Rebbe's FATHER'S kever? Is anyone interested in seeing it?
I would like to see it. Can you scan it?
I'll try.
Tzemach, check your email.
Thank you very much, Binyomin.
1. the date is תקנ"ב – 1792 and it actually sounds OK.
2. but the name ישראל ברוך (!!!) is more than a little strange - he is referred to as ברוך only everywhere; all letters of his son are signed שניאור זלמן בן ברוך !
I think there is too much stuff to explain away here (his name, his father’s name). Is there an authentication of this being the Alter Rebbe’s father’s kever by someone authoritative? And if yes, how do they explain the name discrepancy?
Yes Berl, I just rechecked the date, see post, 1791 in tishrei. Look again it doesn't say Yisroel (unless it is hamuflag me yisroel).
Here is what it says (and the line breaks are significant):
פ"נ
איש תם
וישר הרבני ה"ם
והמופלג מ' ישרא
ברוך ב"מ אברהם
ז"ל נפ' ח' לחדש
תשרי שנ' תקנ"ב
לפ"ק ת'נ'צ'ב'ה
1. abbreviated מ' and ב"מ stand for
מורינו בן מורינו or simply מר בן מר
2. everything that one would expect to stay on the same line is broken up:
תם וישר
ישרא ברוך
לחדש תשרי
אברהם ז"ל
תקנ"ב לפ"ק
3. the name Ysroel is abbreviated to ישרא' all the time. (I think that this word probably had a little abbreviation sign that has either worn off or simply not been filled with paint when freshened up). Ether way, ישרא is part of his first name.
Would it be possible:
1. Not to write a full name of you father when signing, etc. (I know some boruchs who's second name is not well known ;-)
2. To add a name while in Golus. Note that he must have avoided Kryias Hatora not to reveal his name.
3. A better question is if they didn’t know his name when they put the mazeiva, which is after his death le kol ha deos, how did they know?
(I posted high resolution scan)
btw, as I asked a Chech fellow who works with me if Selush mean grapes. He said no.
Not to write a full name of you father when signing.
No way - the name of the father is written in the most mechubbod a way, not in some abbreviated fashion. (Not to mention the consistency of it; he is not referred to by this name anywhere).
To ad a name while in Golus. Note that he must have avoided Kryias Hatora not to reveal his name
It would be interesting to hear from someone familiar with the customs of the talmidei chachomim while in such ‘golus’. Strictly speaking, אדם בעל הבית על שמו and this could have happened. But why? Remember, 1791 is before the Tanya was published and before the Alter Rebbe’s arrest! Who in a remote Check village would recognize Rav Baruch for the father of the leader of the fledgling Chabad movement if he had revealed his name to be Baruch ben Schneur Zalman? It is also true that names can be added when someone is sick l”a. But in such cases names like ‘Alter’, ‘Chaim’, ‘Zaidel’ - that connote longevity - were added; the name ‘Yisroel’ does not fit this bill.
A better question is if they didn’t know his name when they put the mazeiva, which is after his death le kol ha deos, how did they know?
That’s right. And since the Alter Rebbe and his brothers knew of their father’s passing, they certainly had enough time to inform the chevra kaddisha in Selush about the real name by the time the matzeivoh was put up (which was not done right away in the old days).
As I said, there is too much here that needs ‘splainin. It makes more sense to assume that this Yisroel Baruch ben Avrohom is simply not our man in Selush.
berl, what is your basis for "Alter Rebbe and his brothers knew of their father’s passing"?
Clarification on the name of the town: In Czech it was called "Seblus" (with a lttle v on top of the second 's') and pronounced: Seblush. In Hungarian it was called "Nagy Szolos" and pronounced "Nodj Solush". Nagy means "Great or Greater" and Szolos is derivative of the Hungarian word for grape: szolo (pronounced: soloi). "Selush" is how Jews commonly referred to the town.
R' Menachem Mendel Rubin, Muzoi Ruv, whose bais hamedrash is on Ocean Parkway between M and N got married to his rebbitzin (who has since passed away) in Selush (she was raised there and refers to her Selush childhood in a book published by Artscroll). They lived there after they got married and were deported from there during the war. I am thinking R' Rubin could shed some more light on the authenticity of the kever and related history. As well he would know other survivors of the Selush community who might be able to fill in some of the blanks or at least provide some additional colour or context.
More "revelations".
Greenwald brings the fact that Reb Boruch was supposedly Yisroel Boruch, based on the Matzeivoh. I guess we should now decide that Reb Boruch was NOT the son of Schneur Zalmen, and he should be referred to as Ben Avrohom, no? also based on the מצבה?
What about the fact that the AR didn't name any of his sons Boruch? was he estranged from his father? or maybe he wasn't sure of his name either? I could see it now, the AR pacing back and forth in GE Ho'Elyon: "was it Boruch, or Yisroel Boruch, I can't remember!. Forget it Stera, We'll just name him Moshe".
BarumPum.
Tzig, go back to your blog. You are still an idiot.
Binyomin, this is very interesting information. But will all due respect I would be even more skeptical in my reliance on the recollections of some Eastern Parkway Rov compared to Rayatz. Might be a one of those golus stories...
Ocean Parkway not Eastern Parkway. R' Rubin is very reliable and has more than a passing interest in Chabad. I remember from the 80s that although the mispalelim in his bais hamedrash were primarily of Hungarian / Satmar affiliation and not particulariy sympathetic to Chabad, he always davened from a "standard" nusach sfard siddur on top of his shtender while continually looking down into the Alter Rebbe's siddur (the big one with the mforshim) which he had located inside his shtender.
I am not an expert or an authority but anecdotal and other types of evidence like this should ideally be weighed by someone like Dr. Assaf to whom I also sent the photo.
"Ocean Parkway not Eastern Parkway" ha, a slip:lol:
Where is MIB? I emailed him, he would know.
R' Rubin might have the siddur under his pillow but still not know what was back then. As some of greatest librarians in Chabad today are in a complete dark or pretend to be in the dark.
what is your basis for "Alter Rebbe and his brothers knew of their father’s passing"?
I do not remember right now, but I am pretty clear about it. It is easy to check in the Alter Rebbe’s Igreis, though (and see when ‘Z"L’ is added to his father's name in the signature – but I am out of town and do not have that sefer with me now).
What about the fact that the AR didn't name any of his sons Boruch?
The Alter Rebbe simply did not have any children born to him after his father's passing. But his grandson (Tzemach Tzedek's bechor) was born during the Alter Rebbe's lifetime and was named Baruch Shalom (Baruch after the Alter Rebbe's father and Shalom after the Tzemach Tzedek's father).
Please note that I did not say it is ‘impossible’ that Rav Baruch added ‘Yisroel’ to his name and withheld his father’s name from the townsfolk; it is also not impossible that his children, out of respect to how he chose to live, left things be (including the husach hamatzeivoh). But the combination of all of these together is highly implausible. So, unless someone with real authority says this is Rav Baruch, I will not believe it.
See intro to IG"K vol I (of Rashaz). A complete (albeit inconclusive) analysis of the matzaiva. The Bais Rebbi (R' Chaim Tzvi Heilman) was of the opinion that this is not the father of Rashaz.
Noson, please a recap.
The intro brings from "Igros Baal Hatanya" (authored by the same Heilman) that this cannot be the Rashaz's father for three reasons:
1. His name was Boruch not Yisroel Boruch.
2. His fathers name was Shneir Zalman not Avraham.
3. One of Rashaz's grandchildren by the name of Boruch Ben Eliyahu, printed the Tanya in 5566 (1806) in Shklov, it would not be probable that he was only 14 at the time.
The Intro then disproves the three reasons:
1. The "Eden Tziyon" of R' Yshaya Horwitz quotes his own father as saying that his name was Yisroel Boruch, only after he became close with the Besht did he stop using his first name out of respect to his Rebbe.
2. He dosn't address the ben Avraham issue.
3. The Boruch ben Eliyahu who printed the Tanya, was not a grandson at all rather was the printer in shklov.
However three grandchildren were named after 1792 Boruch. They are;
R' Dovber second son,
R' Chaim Avraham second son,
and the second son of Rebbetzin Freeda, Rashaz's daughter (also ben R' Eliyahu-hence the confusion of heilman).
From all the above he concludes that it is likely that this is the correct matzaiva but not conclusive.
On a side note, as Tzfania points out R' SB Levin (author of the into) writes in his book Avodas Hakodesh, that the Rebbe told him to contact Rabbi Rubin (I guess the same one mentioned by Binyomen) from Far Rockaway (maybe not the same as binyomen) who was from Selush, and had been to the Rebbe and showed him pictures of the Matzaiva.
The intro also references the letters that Rashaz wrote during that time frame, which show that until about 1792 he wrote shey' on his father as opposed to afterward when he wrote zal. From this we can deduce that 1. The date on the Matzaiva is probable. 2. Rashaz knew that his father had passed on.
his name was Yisroel Boruch, only after he became close with the Besht did he stop using his first name out of respect to his Rebbe.
this is very hard to belive. Also if they did not know his father's name in Selush (what was the name btw?) how would they know his former name?
In the intro he only quotes from the sefer Eden Tzion where R' Yshaya Horwitz quotes his father as saying such. I also found that quite odd, esp. for the reason you mentioned.
With all due respect to Rabbi Levine, it seems that when it comes to names - er pluideret (remember his 'Mussia - Muska - Mushka' flop).
It is entirely believable that Reb Baruch would stop using (as in ‘public usage’) the name 'Yisroel' upon becoming Baal Shem Tov's chossid. But that does not mean the name would cease to be part of his name and that he could actually drop it to or that his children would not refer to it in their patronymics. This is just sheer nonsense!
A note on R' M. M. Rubin. I'm not sure but it could be the same R' Rubin that Noson mentions. He did have a kesher to Chabad. I don't know the time sequence but I think he was in Far Rockaway before he moved to Flatbush (Ocean Parkway). His original bais hamedrash in Flatbush was very American / Young Israel. As more of his chevra migrated to Flatbush from the Bronx and Crown Heights it became very chassidish. I understand he was a front runner to become the Satmar Rebbe but lost out I believe to the Tzelemer. His rebbitzin (from Selush) was a favoured niece of the Satmar Rebbitzin. One of R' Rubin's prized possessions was a very small sefer Torah which belonged to R' Yoelish. He lived in Selush, got married to a Selusher, and has ties to the surviving Selushers internationally. If anyone can shed light on the Selush connection of this mystery, it would be him.
Rabbi Rubin z'l of Far Rockaway had the 'Sulitsa' beis medrash.I don't think it's the same as 'Seylish'
There was a rov in London who passed away a number of years ago known as the 'Seylisher' Rabbi Stern father of rosh yeshivas Toras Chesed of Hitchen,England, who unfortunately passed away about a year ago
In Avodas Hakodesh (Levin) he writes the following:
When the proofs of the IG"K of the AR were ready for print, and I sent it in to the Rebbe for proofing, he commented on the section in the intro where it refers to the matzeiva of the AR's father, that I should obtain a photo of the matzaiva to include.
The following is the Rebbe's comment:
דר בנ"י (פאר ראקאוויי?) הרב דסעליש שי' (האלבערשטאט, רובין?) שלפני שנים ביקר אותי וסיפר כו' הראה צילומים וכו', וכדאי שיתקשר אתו כו.
[Translation: In NY there lives the Rabbi of Selish (Halberstat, Rubin?) who visited me a number of years back and related etc. showed me photographs etc. It would be appropriate that you should contact him etc.]
Levin continues; I was unable to locate him, to which the Rebbe replied:
ישאל את הציעשאנאווער שי' שמכיר כולם וכו'.
[Translation: Ask the Tzieshanaver who knows them all etc.]
Nevertheless the Rebbe told me not to push off the printing for lack of the photo.
A number of days later The Rebbe sent me a clip from a newspaper which had a Mazal Tov greeting to R' Shmuel Shmelka Rubin Rebbe of Solitza-Far Rockaway.
He however, did not have the photo, but at the last minute before press, R' Yitzchak Wilhelm located a photo from R' Chaim Rothenstein of Selish.
The Rebbe asked me to include a caption identifying the text on the Matzaiva as it is hard to read.
To Berl: It is not Levin's assumtion that the Eden Tzion is correct, he merely quotes what he wrote there, and says that to throw out the matzaiva as accurate--based on the name Yisroel alone--does not stand.
Noson, very interesting, thanks. Does that mean that the Rebbe allowed for a possibility that the matzeivoh is indeed that of Rav Baruch, despite all the obvious questions that it raises (obvious enough even to someone like myself who has not read any of the learned discussion on the subject that you so kindly quoted)?
Since we are in the realm of theories:
What if the opposite is true? The original name was only 'Baruch' but toward the end he got ill and had a name added (and used his Rebbe's Baal Shem Teiv’s name for this healing purpose instead of the usual 'Chaim' etc). The chevra kaddisha then inscribed the full new name 'Yisrael Baruch', but the children, not being sure that the new name 'took' (was used by Rav Baruch for more than 30 days), relied only on the original name as was known to them. Any takers?
I suggested this possibly but why spin BST into this? There are takes for every odd idea in the world.
Here what Assaf quotes directly from Greenvald book ( page 106):
There is this mesora in Selush “When R. Boruch was sick, close to his end in Salush, Hevra Kadisha asked wher are his children. He did not tell. Few years later R. Schneur Zalman from Liadi came to Selush. Took a minyan, went to the kever and took off his shoes and asked for mechila. To my mind [Greenvald] explanation to this because the elder opposed to chasidus, when he saw that his children did not listen to him he abandoned his wealth and came to Hungary where Hasidus was not yet strong”
TA, were did you suggest this possibility?
Bottom line - all of this is far-fetched; if there is a kabboloh that was accepted by the Rebbe (or a tradition in Beis HoRav) that this is Rav Baruch's gravesite, then an explanation for the wrong name/s can be found. Otherwise, this is simply not his grave.
P.S. When I said 'takers' I did not mean any moron that would agree with me. I meant anyone I would actually talk to.
If the Rebbe wanted the picture of the Selush matzeiva published and the text on the stone reproduced for clarity, what does that say about its authenticity?
Footnote in David Assaf book:
“Solish, Selesh or Soles is Nagyszollos and now it is called Vinogradov in Ukraine, in Carpathian area, 40 kilometers south east of Munkatch.
http://www.edwardvictor.com/Vino.../
Vinogradov.htm
http://www.jewishgen.org/Yizkor/...dov/
Vin001.html
Berl, point 2 here:
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...?
a=15895#250044
In Noson's quote from the intro of the book he mentions I think "Rubin" and "Halberstam". FWIW, R' M. M. Rubin's daughter married a Halberstam. I'm still thinking the Rubin in question might be the Muzoi Ruv (Ocean Parkway).
"To my mind [Greenvald] explanation to this because the elder opposed to chasidus..."
Then this Greenwald is an ignorant moron. And the one quoting him in his book does nothing for his own credibility. Rav Baruch was a chossid of the Baal Shem Teiv. His grandfather Reb Moshe Posner was, indeed, a misnageid. But in the end of his days Reb Moshe lived with his chossid grandson Rav Baruch in Liozna and even got to see his illustrious great-grandson.
Incidentally, this Greenvald moron does not find it the least bit strange that a 'misnaged'-father would send his young child to study with the Lubavitcher Maggid Rav Issochor Deiv (a follower of the Baal Shem Teiv)?
Berl, this history you quote is from Rayatz, so we came a full circle now...
TA, I saw this and responded. But the question is not simply adding a name, but why, and why 'Yisroel'.
Because he fought with people and angels and was victorious!
Dooe anyone recall a different version of events? R' Boruch left town because his son, the Alter Rebbe, would stand up when his father entered the room. Embarrased by his already famous son giving him such honour he goes into golus and ends up in Selesh where he stays by an innkeeper who recognizes his saintliness and refuses to accept any compensation. When he is about to pass away they ask him who they should notify (he still won't identify himself) and says it's not necessary because the one who needs to know will know. Shorly after his levayah a delegation arrives from the Alter Rebbe insisting on paying the chevra kadisah and the innkeeper. Both refuse to accept payment. A din Torah decides the innkeeper can refuse, but the chevra kadisha cannot because it works for the community. What is the source for the above?
part of this story is from Meir Heimlin Beis Rabi, also quoted in Assaf's book. (see footnotes as published in Kfar Chabad on page 107).
There is aslo in footnotes a reference to SS Duetsch: "The Last Years of Reb Boruch" anyone seen it?
change of name and exile are connected. they both MAY be components of a תשובה process.
faruq, changing name but adding name?
why not? it is also a change and probably qualifies for איני אותו האיש שעשה אותם מעשים
who knows, may be there is an issue of respecting one's parents and one's illustrious ancestors, in whose honor one was named, not to eliminate the original name.
faruq, let's be clear: whatever the reason for the name change (and yes, adding a name constitutes a change of name, at least according to Tzemach Tzedek), the problem is explaining why his children show no awareness of such a name change (not even after his petiroh). I proposed a theory for that (above).
But I re-iterate: if, as Noson reports, the Rebbe allowed the possibility that this is the gravesite of Rav Baruch, then all these questions are not germane and it is indeed his grave, as far as I am concerned.
Let me say that as matter of principal and a matter of worldview I see the vision where fathers and sons fight and davka in these fighting families the sons blast the way to the new frontiers. This is the path of Avrohon Avinu. I also believe the curses and animosities of talmidin of magid are real, a mortal combat of tragedy and drama rule the lurid truth of life. The chosen fall, the boundaries are raped and struggle is without mercy. This is the truth of life I know.
The other is the tale of bright colors and idealistic visions mixed on sugary starch, this is the world of falsehood that Alter Rebbe himself cast to the ground before he died.
Thanks for the map Tzemach, it gives me very good perspective from a personal point of view. My mother-in-law was born in Munkatch and later moved with her family to Selush. My father z"l was from Fehergyarmat a small town in NE Hungary which I always have difficulty locating on maps of the region but on yours it figures clearly and prominently and so close to Selush / Vinogradov. I didn't realize how close they were in proximity until I saw your map. Much appreciated. BTW, would the Vino in Vino-gradov not refer to the wine / grape nature of the locale?
"if... the Rebbe allowed the possibility that this is the gravesite of Rav Baruch, then ... it is indeed his grave, as far as I am concerned."
regardless of who is really buried there :lol:
"Let me say that as matter of principal and a matter of worldview I see the vision where fathers and sons fight and davka in these fighting families the sons blast the way to the new frontiers. This is the path of Avrohon Avinu. I also believe the curses and animosities of talmidin of magid are real, a mortal combat of tragedy and drama rule the lurid truth of life. The chosen fall, the boundaries are raped and struggle is without mercy. This is the truth of life I know."
This leaves me astounded at the insight into your soul. I feel ashamed at having shared this feeling, even for the moment it took to read it. Perhaps instead of saying shelo asani, I should say sheasani chosid?
Binyomin, in Russian vino=wine, vinograd=grape.
guravitzer, I say boruch she asani IVRI, as in the one "from the other side of the river". You obviously do not what to be counted with this tag.
What evidence besides rayatz do we have that R Boruch was a talmid of the BST?
I mean, if he was a chassid already,so then why did he have a choice between vilna and mezrich?
EVIDENCE??
It's a total joke!
Lubavitchers have their own versions of history.Yes, even the 'smart' ones.
Do you know that the Rebbe referred to his own father-in-law a number of times as 'shlit'a' after his passing!(COPIES CAN BE SEEN IN THE IGROSS KODESH)?Do you know that the Rebbe claimed that one can see the previous Rebbe ,his father-in-law, with physical eyes (fleyshigeh oygen)Do you really think the Messianics (and all Lubavitchers actually are, some are still closeted)were 'smart' enough to make up the crappola about the Rebbe being alive?.
Think about this before The Chabad Telethon.Give your money to REAL JEWS,not fake scoundrels!
P.G., please provide reference for "the Rebbe referred to his own father-in-law a number of times as 'shlit'a' after his passing"
To each their own interpretation. I am not ashamed of you, I am ashamed of what the feeling did to me.
P.G., please provide reference for "the Rebbe referred to his own father-in-law a number of times as 'shlit'a' after his passing"
faruq | 08.31.06 - 5:11 pm | #
Look at the inroduction to Rav Shalom Dov Wolpe sefer on shiatels called Leket Shikcas Peah he qoutes it over there as backing up why he refers to the Rebbe as shilta.
The Russification by the Ukranians of NorthEast Hungary and Slovakia is heartbreaking.
Ungvar became Uzhgorod,Selish became Vinogradov, which would rather have, the Yiddish/Hungarian or the Russian?
HirshelTzig: Which do YOU prefer: St. Petersburg or Leningrad?
The real original name is Petrograd.
Tzig preferres Chmelnitzky.
The real original name is Petrograd
I am afraid not. Peter the Great was a germanophile and he (his daughter?) named the city St. Petersburg in the German style. In 1914, at the onset of WWI, all things German suddenly went out of vogue in Russia and the name was changed to a Slavic-sounding ‘Petrograd’ (the commies later changed it into ‘Leningrad’).
I do not know what to make of it, but in his sefer 'aveidas hakeidesh' (referenced earlier by Noson), Rabbi Berel Levin mentions that he found a copy from a pinkas chevra kaddisha in Liozno, where the Alter Rebbe's paternal grandfather’s name is recorded as Avrohom! Rabbi Levin reports being told by the Rebbe to publicize the find! (Which, apparently, he did).
You see contrary to your position the Rebbe was for a free flow of ideas.
Is R'Berel Levin a Chabad historian? The reason I ask is because many years ago in Oak Park, Michigan I had a conversation with R' Itche Meyer Kagan z"l on the topic of Selush being the resting place of the AR's father (I had just returned from visiting my wife's relative in Teaneck where I saw the Selush memorial book), when he smiled and said he had recently shared a cab in NY with one of Chabad's official historians (and I think he mentioned the name Berel Levin) who had made IMK a bet that he couldn't name the town where the AR's father was buried and when IMK couldn't take him up on the bet he proceeded to tell him that it was Selush. This would have been in the early 80s.
Berl Levin is not a historian. He is a librarian and a reference on Chabad canonic legacy. He is an occasional publicist and a spokesman articulating talking points of the Chabad dynasty, but under no circumstances one can call him a historian. Just look at his opinions about R. Moshe. Certainly IMK could have called him a historian but it says nothing about who is burried in that grave.
R' Boruch's father-in-law was Avrohom.
faruq, correct, that's why the stress is on 'paternal'
To fill in the picture a little more, it needs to be stated for the record that Rabbi Levin is a serious talmid chochom who for many years edited the Yagdil Teiroh journal and is the publisher/editor of the new edition of the Shilchan Aruch HoRav.
TA you are wrong about Berel Levin. I think if you would understand hebrew well, you would agree that he is a serious historian by all means.
I would like to add. It seems that the Selush masora about this grave is based according to the Hungarian “moron” Greenvald on the fact that the Alter Rebbe made a trip there. To my knowledge there is no Chabad history documenting such a significant and a far away trip. I don’t see how that would have been possible particularly due to the fact the Alter Rebbe was at the prime of his kingship. But is seem that the legend of proximity of the Alter Rebbe’s grave to his in-laws is emotionally important to Binyonim so I am sure this is the Alter Rebbe grave because our emotions and feeling is all that counts in the end.
Contrary to your position the Rebbe was for a free flow of ideas.
1. I think my position is a bit more nuanced that you imply.
2. Whatever my position is on any subject, it is subject to change without notice if I am shown that it is not in accord with the Rebbe's view on the matter.
Berl, I think you should add "2" to your standard sig :+:
You mean a small-print discalimer? I have thought of it myself as well.
Yes. Like the lawyer have: This communication is intended for blah, blah. In the event that an opinion surfaces that the Rebbe contradicts my opinion, my opinion does not count and should be consider like the dust or the earth!
The biur chometz analogy is good; but for me the following works better:
כל דמקדש אדעתא דרבנן מקדש ואפקעינהו רבנן לקידושין מיניה
אמר ליה רבינא לרב אשי תינח דקדיש בכספא קדיש בביאה מאי איכא למימר
שויוה רבנן לבעילתו בעילת זנות
I just got back from New York this weekend where I learned a bit more of the story.
Moshe Berliner, whose matzeivah is on the left-hand side of the picture, had a grandson, Joseph Berliner, who in the mid 70s asked Rabbi Piekarsky and Rabbi Henoch Cohen (US director of Chinuch Atzmoi of which Joseph Berliner was a major supporter) to ask the Lubavitcher Rebbe permission to exhume the remains of both the Alter Rebbe's father and Moshe Berliner and move them to Israel. Permission was denied by the Lubavitcher Rebbe and Joseph Berliner was advised by Rabbi Piekarsky to not pursue this intiative and so he did not proceed with his intentions to move the remains of either kever to Israel.
It would appear then that there was an awareness at 770 at least as early as the mid 70s that the AR's father's resting place was in Selush. I am not aware that this was contested by anyone at 770 either then, before, or afterwards.
Who took the picture? In the 70s, Joseph Berliner had a brother-in-law still residing in Selush by the name of Joseph Rosner. Rosner took the picture and sent it to Joseph Berliner in New Jersey. From there it made its way into the Selush memorial book and eventually on to this blog.
"I am not aware that this was contested by anyone at 770"
nothing is contested in 770. Please, you are making a spectacle of yourself, Binyonim.
"nothing is contested in 770"
The uninitiated (like me) could use an explanation of this statement, Tzemach.
BTW, there is no emotional interest here (as I think you alluded to earlier) in identifying the kever as belonging to the AR's father. The descendants of Moshe Berliner z"l are not affiliated with Chabad; the closest any may have come would have been to have bought some milk or cheese from Leibl Bistritzky on the Lower East Side. Neither the shuls in which they davened, nor the social circles in which they travelled, were particularily sympathetic to Chabad (just the opposite).
I AM PLANNING A TRIP TO SEVLUSH, DOES ANYONE HAVE INFO ON WHERE THE ALTER REBBES FATHERS KEVER IS? OR ANY OTHER INFO OF THE TOWN?
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