mentalblog.com comments:
What a bunch of primitive psychobabble!
גמר חתימה טובה צו אלעמען
amazing penetrative-ness!
lol
Berl, stay out of forensic psychology. Phonetics is your field. For inasmuch as you are the Henry Higgins of mentalblog-land, I aspire to be its Porfiry Petrovich.
I was thinking about this post and in some odd way everything I ever talked about is here.
Without exception, anybody who spent any amount of their formative years in the frum society is, to some degree, emotionally disturbed. Some over-compensate and re-adjust better than others, but no one walked away from that place without deep emotional scars. What I'm talking about is the symptomatic characteristics of post-traumatic-stress-syndrome from living in a totalitarian society, namely suspicion, hyper-vigilance and rigidity.
Faruq, I would beg to differ. The emotional wounds suffered by those who spent their formative years in "frum society" are different.
What is of interest to me is not whether or not they have “bad breath and rotting teeth,” but a social network of so-called “chabad chasidim” who seem to engage regularly in behavior that exemplifies wanton prikus-oyl. So superficial is their brand of “chasidus” that one could behave like a shikkurer goy and still identify as chosid. Once upon a time, chabad leaders were either authentic (if not eloquent) communicators, or if not, then at least, possessed of some sense of accountability. Now, thank God, Chabad is available as never before to the masses.
faruq, do you think it makes a difference if you stay in Russia, as in staying in frum society all your life. In other words is disorder activated by moving to a different environment? Or it is always there?
p.s. let's assume that everyone has a disorder yet it is the unique aspects of this Russian disorder that are spot on.
This is purely anecdotal from my personal experiences but, if you ever get a Russian to relax and lure him into letting down his defenses for a minute (which is rare) and ask him if, despite it all, does he believe in communism, he will become uncomfortable, even deeply pained, because he knows that even now, even as he can tell you how much he hates those bastards with a passion, there is still a part of his mind and heart that they own, neural pathways that have been disrupted forever. I think a lot of Russians are searching for the posion powerful enough to burn away that malignant growth. (Berl, forgive the psycho-babble, this is just one man's opinion but...)I think many Russians hope that Yiddishkeit (the sam ha'movess of it davka) can finally destroy that quiet little tumor.
TA, i don't know what you are talking about. wall i want to say is that this kind of general talk, which cannot be either proved or disproved, and where you can substitute infinite number of values and it still will hold true, annoy me a lot. this is a single aspect of chasidic discourse that drives me crasy. it is this kind of talk that the Rebbe used to employ to defend the faith from the scientific "attacks". it is empty and void.
o! here it goes:
This is purely anecdotal from my personal experiences but, if you ever get a lubavitcher to relax and lure him into letting down his defenses for a minute (which is rare) and ask him if, despite it all, does he believe in Rebbe and Chasidus, he will become uncomfortable, even deeply pained, because he knows that even now there is still a part of his mind and heart that they own, neural pathways that have been disrupted forever. I think a lot of Chasidim are searching for the posion powerful enough to burn away that malignant growth. I think many Lubavitchers hope that the sam ha'movess can finally destroy that quiet little tumor.
Faruq, I don't think my statements about Russians are general at all. They are very specific. If you want, I can write a discourse about how Israelies are screwed up or Americans and I would say completely different things. Maybe the statements just don't resonate with your experiences, and if so, to each his own. But I think I described a pretty specific syndrome.
so are mine (pardon, yours) statements about the lubavitchers.
faruq, this might be not your style or interest by just parroting it makes no point.
The problem with your satirical rendering of my words is that your parody doesn't ring true. When you change the operative words, the statements fall apart.
If you want to go take a newspaper horoscope and substitute Gemini for Libra to prove how general their statements are, that might be funny.
I will write a post about this. This is a big subject. What Tony said helped me to distill my thoughts about this and he is absolutely right, this explains a lot. Here is hint. Faruq, please explain why every single Chabad post soviet structure in Russia and beyond follows a totalitarian model?
statements like "without EXCEPTION, anybody who spent any amount of their formative years in the Soviet Union is, to some degree, emotionally disturbed." are so general that they make no sense at all.
to be emotionally disturbed "to some degree" is a very safe statement that could be applied to anybody at all.
not being able to go away without "emotional scars" is equally senseless and could be universally applied.
Faruq, I went on to detail exactly which specific emotional scars I was talking about. But I see no point arguing this with you because you are obviosuly not a fan of this style of discourse. Again, to each his own. But don't try to poke holes in my logic just because its not your cup of tea.
Faruq, this is an age old dilemma that all classification are general and to some degree inaccurate. I have seen time and again that people whom I consider to be overly rational react to such classifications with derision and disdain. Yet there is no other way in investigating and more importantly understanding of the cultural differences.
TA, please note, i do agree in GENERAL with Tony. as a matter of fact, that was exactly what i told Ms. Chava. it is the absolutely disproportional amount of words and general and inflated statements (what is known in chasidus as צרעת )that annoys me.
fine, please wake me up when you are ready for the GENERAL conculsion. sorry for the broken pen and wasted ink.
faruq, compared to an average article you see out there, all the posts on mentalblog even by the people with some writing skills like TM are very short. You are getting your emotions into this debate.
fine, fine. keep talking. i am sorry for the wasted web space.
yea, right, you of all people should accuse me of getting emotional. good night.
look what Chava wrote could be applied to all Lubavitchers yet it is undeniable that aspects of her description are uniquely Russian. What am I missing?
"Yet there is no other way in investigating and more importantly understanding of the cultural differences."
I beg to differ. One could start with a thesis on how SPECIFIC characteristics of, say, two SPECIFIC time periods of two SPECIFIC societies leave two SPECIFICALY different 'emotional scars' on the members of said societies.
Doing that kind of granular due-diligence would take the conversation out of its present realm of ‘psychobabble’. But to do that, one has to know a bit more about Russian history and its socio-political realities than the mere fact that it was a 'totalitarian society'.
thank you, berl. בערל יהיה נביאך
Geeks
Geeks? May be so. But I would rather be a geek than get my information from the field reports by bad-breath-sniffing-Chava. :)
I wrote a broad brushed post about this here
http://www.mentalblog.com/2005/0...-
geography.html
Chava sniffed Adam into trouble we are in.
Berl,
Please be more specific.
one last thing before i leave this podium to more serious debaters.
Tony has no idea what he is talking about when he says. “…In those days, the BTs were revolutionaries who practiced defiance through dabbling in Yiddishkeit.”
yes, and all students of tomchei temimim perished in GULAG in the name of Yiddishkeit.
faruq, i have a feeling that it is your own post perestroika history that leaves you without an idea of what was then. Tony is 100% spot on.
nice try. no comment.
i don't care for the try or who you are. But one thing for sure you do not know what was then. The only history you know well is the history of Tzadik from Leningrad, and he was the one who started this Stalinist machine rolling.
PS Besides it all happened in Moscow and only Moscow.
Faruq is farookt.Go ask your yiddish teacher
To the geeks:
Please file any further criticism of my methods under "Whose Afraid of Human-to-Human Intimacy," for while you're busy digging for objective data, you lose the underlying truth that a little reflective listening has to offer. I am no Margaret Mead, but what I do have a modicum ofis the abstract thinking it takes to figure out what people are about. Sizing people up is an art, not a science.
Both of you are just too concrete for this discussion. Faruq, correct me if I'm wrong, but you were the same guy who when a grocer in Boro Park wouldn't let you use your Amex card, your first response was, "But that's illegal!" And Berl, I think I nailed it more than I first realized when I likened you to Pygmalion.
"...Who’s Afraid of Human-to-Human Intimacy..."
Tony, I have one word for you. Oprah.
You would do well to be a little more like Oprah and a little less like Joe Friday.
Tzemach, the only history you know well is the one that fits your dreams, does not offend your aesthetic sensibilities and does not threaten your comfortable place in heavily sanitized, idealistic past.
Tony, i am ready to take back all my objections to your post on condition that you modify it to include the follosing qualification:
"What I will say is that everybody, with exception of faruq, who spent any amount of their formative years in the Soviet Union is, to some degree, emotionally disturbed."
No problem, Faruq. You are the exception.
I am tired, but I will site one SPECIFIC phenomenon that had a far more significant effect on the psyche of the soviet citizenry than the totalitarian nature of that society – a huge number of children in USSR grew up without siblings (or effectively without siblings). Analyze that.
Now you're finally saying something interesting, Berl.
Tony, since we are on the subject of geekdom, have you not noticed that ‘berl’ is always with a lower-case 'b'?
Like ee cummings?
Okay, berl, why do you spell your name with a lowercase "b"?
berl, even speaking about totalitarian aspect of russian society, there so many important details that could really shed light on the origin of russian psyche. one of utmost importance, i think, was centuries old close cooperation between the church and the state, effectively shutting any ability of the church to serve as a spiritual guide. one of the obvious results: unprecedented religiousity russians display towards their literature.
Another SPECIFIC example is that in that society many aspects of life were completely predictable. How is that for a psychological scar?
What I have been saying all along on this entire blog is that only real facts and carefully verified data (while understandably geeky and boring to some) can serve as a springboard for a meaningful conversation.
P.S. Regarding my nick spelling preference – the reasons are purely aesthetic. My point was not to hint at some hidden psychographics behind it (although I am sure they are there). Rather I was expressing slight annoyance at the fact that you kept spelling it with an upper-case ‘B’.
... huge, unprecedented metamorphosis in the russian language following the revolution...
faruq, I agree that one can also mine for specifics in the political system of Russia (and USSR) and its effects on human psyche.
Like you, I took exception with the very general and fluffy nature of the discussion.
...two centuries old schizophrenic ambivalence about race and religion...
Actually, it has nothing to do with Russia and nothing to do with frum society. Everyone who has spent his or her formative years on this planet is emotionally disturbed to one degree or another! Life is emotionally disturbing! And then you die!
Of course, there are better and worse. There are more disturbed and less disturbed.
Read "Saharasia" by James De Meo for some more details on the more extreme forms that this emotional disturbance can take.
Alone among the creatures on the earth, the human being senses his alienation and his finitude.
This is the only proof of the great love of Hashem Yisboroch that you need!
Alone among the creatures of the earth, the human being, although of the earth, and immersed in the earth, is not satisfied with life on earth as it is, and finds that there is something fundamentally wrong with it, thus the emotional appeal of the Prophets.
Gandalin, we will address American BTs in a different post...
This must be a a god post, why does everyone thinks its just about them?
I 'detest this conversation' for its stupidity (although 'detest' is much-much too strong a word here). I only came back into the conversation when I saw that faruq’s simple point was not understood at all (it still was not). I actually love history-based psychological analysis, but not when generated by the intellectually lazy.
As to 'intimacy': I know this word can be used to describe a certain high level of trust (as in 'intimate advisor') and is thus 'kosher' even when talking about a man-to-man conversation. However yours and Tony's insistence on constantly using this term for this purpose is disturbing, and - what the heck, I will just say it – fagot-like. I much prefer to leave this word for describing intimacy between a man and a woman (no, not only the physical kind). For relationships between men, words like 'honesty', 'openness', 'and integrity’ do a much better job (again for me).
What’s more, you guys are leaning on the 'intimacy' crutch when your logic and analysis in a history-based conversation are found wanting; to top it off, you then resort to more stupid pop-psychology.
I will write in first tense about it. What I feel about this post based on my experience. Let it be misunderstood then.
My point wasn’t that what Tony wrote was not true. Much of it was all too true. It's blurring the difference between 'truth' and 'truism' that was annoying to me (and I think that was faruq’s point as well).
what is truism?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truism
It was not obvious to me before TM wrote about it.
דער אויבערשטער זאל בענצען אלע רוסישע אידען בתוך כלל ישראל
It was not obvious to you that living in a totalitarian society is bound to leave psychological scars? OK then... It's obvious to every other person I know. I am tired of this banter and it's erev Yom Kippur. Gmar Teiv.
I guess we were talking about different things. You were talking scars and I was talking the new breed of BTs. See next post:
http://www.mentalblog.com/2006/1...elieved-
in.html
The scars comment I glanced over.
"The scars comment I glanced over"
LOL. That was the gist of the whole comment!
On the subject of scars TM clearly qualified stereotyping. And although one can claim that the every society leaves scars to deny the psychotic intensity of the Russian legacy is disingenuous. There are certainly might be individuals who left unscarred but for the vast majority of people I know closely the Soviet legacy left heavy markings. Indeed post traumatic disorder migh be the description I was looking for. It is so painfully true.
a cynic might say that faruq's persistent annoyance with tony only reinforces tonys point.
but i am no cynic...
it is obvious that soviet legacy caused heavy emotional scars on certain people, e.g. individuals with high "human development index." russian-jewish intelligentsia was a unique breed, combining jewish depth with russian sensitivity. these people were all about "emotional scars." and, yes, there is no environment that would have not left heavy markings on their souls. i recall talking to a moscovite friend, who was genuinely upset after a visit to a mental professional had failed to uncover any abnormalities.
i meet "provincial jews" from White Russia and Ukraine on a daily basis. to my untrained eye, the vast majority of these people are emotionally very healthy, may be too much so.
Mendel Futerfas retained his paranoia to some degree.
speaking of disorders. want to observe mass possesive-compulsive disorder? go buy a lulav. it is frightening to watch, and be a part of, the process of esrog selection. personally, i leave the store relieved from a bundle of cash and an acute panic disorder.
what kind of idiot is that guy?
I grew up in the most beautifull city in the world, called Petersburg where I was a chief district engineer.
I came to this US of Aids just to check it out and these quazi orthoshmaks almost ruined me!
May you all burn in Gehenum!
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