mentalblog.com comments:
I know next to nothing of this history you speak of, so I will not comment on that aspect of the post.
However, my instincts (and only instincts, I claim no real knowledge here) tell me that the current situation in FSU has less to do with the Tzadik from Leningrad or the new breed of Russian BTs (and btw, the difference between the BT’s from 70’s-80’s and the current crop is another obviously true and indisputable point in the original post) and much more to do with the fact that the indigenous BTs found themselves unable to relate to the new-moneyed class in Russia and thus were all booted out one-by-one by the foreigners who knew exactly how to speak the language of the 'new Russians'. Additionally, Russian deep-seated inferiority complex toward all things foreign probably played a significant role in making the foreigners more acceptable (‘if it’s imported, it must be better’).
The bottom line – it’s all about who is better at fundraising. And that is universal, not just in FSU. Now, whether this is ‘good for the Jews’ or bad, and if bad, how bad, is where we probably differ greatly. But I am sure that my take on this is, as usual, much more nuanced that you would assume.
In fact, Tzadik from Leningrad is only still in Russia and is pretty independent, because he, too, can speak to the New Russians and has a significant following in those circles. Otherwise he'd be back in Israel faster than he could say "El-Al'.
I always found a lot about chabad to be very Russian -- and BTW much about Communism was very Russian and was carried over from the czars. E.g., the propaganda stories -- in the USSR, everything ever invented was invented by a Russian, no one else ever got credit for anything. The airplane, the polio vaccine, yadayada -- everything was invented by Russians. In Chabad, every famous story you ever heard of (like the one about R' Yisrael Salanter coming late to Kol Nidre because he heard a baby crying) happened to one of the seven rebbeim or to the Besht -- after the Besht, their history contains nothing but chabad! (oh and misnagdim of course -- to play the role of the heavy in every story -- parallel to the "betrayers of the revolution" and "saboteurs" who were the USSR's excuse for everything that went wrong)The cult of personality, The Picture on every wall -- very Russian. I noticed this YEARS ago, decades ago in fact. Of course chabad didn't have a KGB for enforcement, no secret police nor Siberia. Having to operate in America didn't give them much scope for genuine totalitarianism, but they were very Russian.
1. There are many similarities between chabad and communism precisely because their goals are quite similar- idealistic utopia on earth through the efforts of a select few.
2. Many Russians who exited communism felt bad because it didn't work out so well, were very happy to find a more acceptable version of the same thing in chabad.
3. There are many similarities between the two movements that you have not commented on : Tzivos Hashem and Young Pioneers, for example.
4. For more information about mass cults, see my post and the movie link on it : http://onionsoupmix.livejournal.....com/
51024.html
Poor Ms. Katz must have not broken her fast yet – she is so very confused. Let’s help her out:
1. The ‘crying baby’ story is with Alter Rebbe’s grandchild and has nothing to do with Kol Nidrei.
2. The Kol Nidrei story is about the Alter Rebbe helping a woman in childbirth.
3. I do not know about the Salanter story, but I have seen numerous stories about chassidic Rebbes that were ‘adapted’ for one of your gedOlim. It is especially funny when the original story was around (and often in print) before the ‘godol’ du jour has had a chance to grace this earth with his blessed presence.
My post was about the different psychological makeup as it relates to the two generation of Russian BTs. And while we talked about the general makeup of Chabad culture or the current Chabad management in FSU numerous times this is not the subject of this post. In fact the Moscow phenomenon I described here was always independent from the Chabad culture per se.
As to the similarities between “Soviet” propaganda legacy and Chabad, I tend to think that they are not specifically Russian rather comparable to a common totalitarian model. You might say that every religious vision creates mythology where the universe is by and for the tribal entity representing the faith.
Berl
Why can you not make any point without being a cynical bastard?
Ms Katz raised a serious point:The apparent similarities between Lubavitch and a part of Russian culture which seems to take underserved credit for many things , in her opinion at least.This point is something Tzemach makes often.Lets debate if it's true,NOT, answer with arrogance and nitpicking about who's gedolim the stories happened or did not happen with.Deal?
Heshy, Berl does not mind when Chabad is behind criticized by people whom he considers “insiders”. But if someone who has a whiff of misnagdik affiliation says things many times more innocent than I do, the hammer of justice is not far away.
Tzemach
Some honesty now:I would be able to live with many parts of Lubavitch .
(though sometimes it's very exasperating)Even the crazy Meshichists, the non violent ones at least.The Lubavitcher that really turn me off are the arrogant, partisan kinds such as Berl.I actually believe that they are partially to blame for the Lubavitchs' downward spiral since the Rebbes zatsals passing.They will allow no critique of Lubavitch, especially by an 'outsider'EVEN when any sane person sees how wrong they are.
Lately things are really getting out of hand, including a fight in 770 on Rosh Hashona,when a member of the bais din was given an aliyah, against the wishes of the supporters of another member!
In my humble opinion the way to fight this insanity is some humility, an attempt by the sane elements to reachout to other frum communities and rabbis to help them rid themselves of the troublesome elements
Chabad representatives broadcast totalitarian culture not out of deep conviction rather because it is the only ideology they know. This ideology is part of the educational indoctrination system that is present in any group that strives to maintain identity in a hostile culture. The major goal of the group is to survive tribal breakdown. Indoctrination mixed on totalitarian ideology is just the ticket. Additionally Chabad despite its name is not interested in refine intellectualism and cultural awareness. For every crank Ashkenazi that is put off by the communist imaginary there are two nostalgic Russian BTs and six Sephardim who can’t get enough of that crap.
Sorry to disturb the illusion, but IMHO (and as a first hand witness I feel entitled to it) the worst trait in '80s Russian BT's was the dissident part, also one of distinctions between the "young" self-proclaimed leaders and older ehrliche Yidden. (For the really good, but merciless satyre on the Dissident crowd, see "Скажи:"Изюм!" by Aksenov). I have lost connection with Chabad too long ago to know how it is playing out there, but in evil Misnaghishe kreizen the percentage of kollel yungeleit is way higher between 90's BT's, when the whole Dissident exaltation fizzled, along with many other idiocies.
Political Chabad seeks influence like political movers everywhere; that's as American as much as Russian. Apart from the political aparachniks, Chabad does share some Russian traits, also Ukrainian. And it not exactly news to see how American Chabad has become after 2 generations. As for the Russian-ness of Bolsheviks, (despite their dislike for nationalism), the same trend can be seen in French politics of Louis XIV, Robespierre, Napoleon, de Gaulle and even Chiraq.
TA,
While I disagree with you about an appropriate venue for critic, I do not care a whiff whether the critic is ‘an insider’ (and what difference would it make in a public forum?). However, I do care when the critique is based on contrived ‘facts’. Ms. Katz made a statement, in effect, that Chabad takes credit for the accomplishments of others. She then backed the statement up with a lie (the Salanter story). In case this seems like an innocent little remark, let me assure you that this is very representative of the current climate of an out-and-out war waged against Chabad by the ArtScroll-Judaism establishment. They are making every effort to write Chabad and the Rebbe out of their version of history. They are, in fact, the ones taking many age-old stories about the Rebbeim and their Chassidim and re-purposing them into gedOlim stories. After a while you start seeing the true believers (like Ms. Katz here) get incredulous when they recognize one of those gedOlim stories in a story about one of the Rebbeim. I believe this is pure evil and has to be confronted.
Berl
Nice 'conspiracy' twist-Artscroll in a 'holy' war against Chabad.
Man, you are so out of touch! Why not step out of your inner city ghetto and see what the rest of us Jews is up too?
Just for the record:Kehos, the Lubavitcher publishing house, probably has a 'holy war' against all other Jews:They only publish Lubavitch authored/interest books (based on the 'holy war' logic at least).
Classic example of what Toby Katz 'felt', pity she has never listened on to a 'farbrengen' by the likes of Berel.She'd see that her comment was the 'understatement' of the year.Btw the reason the Rebbe zatsal is not allowed to rest in peace is also part of this propoganda war:The Messiah 'must' be a Lubavitcher (thematic with the
'Lubavitch is best' theme)
P.S.
I've noticed another Berl theme.When taken on forcefully, will play the 'it's beneath me to answer lowlives like you'. I used to think this was a sign of arrogance and hubris, maybe it's really a sign of uncertainty and weekness.Berl,It's ok to concede a point, especially when this partisan practice of 'we are always right' has left you with a bunch of zombies running you main shul,770 and many other places.An institution which will not accept constructive critiscm is doomed for failure.That's what happened in Russia.It seems to the same scenarion in Lubavitch today
Moron, Kehoth is a narrow-specialty publisher that is only there to publish Lubavitch seforim. They make no other representation! They will publish a history book and call it 'Chabad history in whatever...'
No so with ArtScroll. They will publish a 'Jewish history in whatever...' and exclude Chabad; they will publish a Rashi Chumah and exclude the Rebbe's biurim on Rashi entirely (this while they manage to include even the most insignificant of the gedOlim)! Are you so stupid that you do not understand the distinction?
Two points:
The fact is, Kehos' mission is to promulgate Chassidus. Other than in the first years when it tried to fill a void in general jewish education i.e. our People, Marcus Lehman books ect. They publish material relevant to Chabad history/chassidus. Not si Artscroll. Just as an aside, the dedications and sponsorships of Kehos are printed at the back of the book/sefer, versus Artscroll where you have to flip the first 20 pages to get to the gemmoroh.
Second point, one obvious ( to me ) inter-generational difference, is an almost total lack of activist zeal in the newer crop. Either because it's built into the russian mentality, or because no effort is made to cultivate a new generation of Russian speaking leaders.
I will gladly concede this point though:
Chabad institutions should welcome constructive criticism.
(Feel-good truisms seem to now be welcome on this blog. I can do feel-good truisms.)
lipovitzer, since your second point actually addressed the theme of this post I would be interested if you can elaborate please.
Berl
Firstly lay off of the name calling.Using shrill language does not make your case stronger, in fact the need to use it shows that your argument has a problem standing on its own merits.
Now about Kehos:The point being made was that though Lubavitch have the resources to publish many books, they are ALL Lubavitch focused,this from a group which has an outreach network geared towards all Jews.Now ask yourself this:Since Lubavitch has emmisaries everywhere why is none of their publishing efforts made in the direction of general Jewish Orthodoxy?Why have they not tried to set up anything remotely similar to Artscroll, who even according to Berls narrow focus, does cover a very wide Orthodox spectrum?
The answer is quite simple:Lubavitch is only interested in their version of Judaism,there is no Jewish kaleidescope there.
Now it's their right,I guess(though they are always focusing on general communal projects, AND general Jewish donors)but in my opinion it's the height of chutzpah to criticize another Jewish group or publishing house for not 'acknowledging' Chabad, when they themselves will never ever do the same.
Heshy, as all can plainly see from this exchange, you are an idiot.
True, this does not make my point stronger, but neither will it get any stronger through a prolonged discussion with someone who simply doesn’t know his ass from his elbow.
Yesterday on YK, I saw in the park two Jews sitting on bench talking in Yiddish, I approach them to wish Gut Yohr. One of them stood up and unexpectedly started talking to me angrily in Russian. I notice this strange habit; some old Russian Jews just assume the world speaks Russian and barge into a tirade that everyone supposed to understand. Anyway he was telling me with foam coming out of his mouth that I should not go around with a Talis on the streets. I thought about scars then…
If Ms. Katz is the same that posts on other lists (like Arevim) I beleive she is not originally a habad hater, or if i'm not mistaken, she is not a art scroll fan ( i believe she would actually criticize some otheir takes on many matters).
If she is same person on the other lists, actually her father had a connection with the Rebbe (Rav Volbo z"l) if i'm not mistaken and mekarev a lot of people.
In any event, while the example she used is poor (and for that matter there may be many similar stories that are found by many people etc.), she does make a strong point nonetheless.
Whether a moron of moronim ascribes the title of moron and other epithets to those who disagree with him will not make his case any better.
A common slogan and "answer" given here, without substance was: Lubavitch covers Lubavitch history. Others who claim to cover general history are not allowed to hide lubavitch facet.
In addition, that in the spirit of Ahavas yisroel (so much lauded in speech by lubavitch and practiced even to people who are lacking in morality etc.) it would behoove to find ways in which to speak in favour of many great jews of the past that have followers in the present,
Most importantly and to the point: when talking about accomplsihing for yiddishkeyt in a certain place (like U.s.a or Russia in the past) at a certain time, to write and publish in a manner that ALL was accomplished by Chabad and that no other group of people or great individuals had any take in the matter is a mtter of TRUTH AND FALSEHOOD.
"moron of moronim" - that's good!
For a moment there I thought you were referring to the מרן המרנים (aka זקן ראשי ישיבות ) ;)
Aharon, actually I do not have much disagreement with most of what your say in your comment. And I have said before on this very blog that all groups are guilty of a certain amount of exaggeration of their accomplishments.
However, it’s no ‘slogan’ that the Lubavitch publishing house Kehoth (the topic of my 'discussion' with the infantile ‘Heshy’) is, in fact, a specialty publisher that makes no claim to be producing a broad range of material on general Judaica. ArtScroll does. And Chabad houses are filled with ArtScroll chumashim, volumes of Talmud and Na"CH.
Now, please explain the Rashi Chumash with zero beiurim from the Lubavitcher Rebbe! Please explain Berel Wein’s ‘history’ sanitized of any mention of Lubavitch! Please explain the Goldwasser book about an old Lubavitcher sheichet from Moscow with no mention of Lubavith! Please explain why all orthodox-establishment types that claim to be ‘inclusive’ and ‘across-the-board’ are united in their boycott of Lubavitch. When you do, we can talk. When you do, we can discuss the ‘points’ raised by Ms. Katz and chat about her wonderful family history. When you do, we can joke about the ‘adapted’ stories that used to be סיפורי חסידים and are now סיפורי מיתנגדים . But until you explain all these phenomena, don’t you dare get all indignant on me!
? רצחת וגם ירשת
years ago, the last time i ever attempted to persuade a stranger to put on tephilin was when i encountered an elderly polish gentleman. he was playing chess with his "russian" friends. when i started talking to the russians, he became noticebly agitated. when i turned to him and suggested he puts tephilin on too, he started shouting at me in an angry wisper, with tears in his eyes. i do not remember exactly his words, but it was something like "your tephilin failed to save my family back then."
Hesh, Berl's statement is obvious on the face of it and need's no defense from me but I am amazed on two accounts. 1. Why Berl even bothers? and 2. How you just don't get it.
Years ago when Rebbitzen Yungreis splashed onto the "kiruv" scene in Madison Sq. Gardens there were some Lubavitchers who took umbrage over her "muscle'n in our turf." Rabbi B. Cohen (formerly of Gateshead who has been reish hayeshiva in Melbourne for three decades) explained that "kiruv" per se is not our raison d'etre except by default. In other words nobody else was doing it so somebody had to wipe the baby's bottom. The purpose of Lubavitch "outreach" as set by the Besht down through the n'si'ai Chabad is to diseminate the wellsprings of Chassidus. (Now Heshy, if you really knew something you would know that this is where the true rub begins.)
Truman, 'berl' is with a lower-case 'b'. :)
As we say in Missouri, unsthuldik mir.
we also lisp, untshuldik
faruq,
Is that why you stopped persuading Yidden to don tiffillin?
Berl
Thank you for the compliment.Your calling me an idiot and a moron really furthered your cause,right?
Man, I feel that old style Lubavitcher 'ahavas yiroel' like the Chasidah that does chesed only with her 'anash'.
As I noted earlier, the more shrill and cynical you get, the weaker the point you make.
Reminds me of the politician who gets his printed speech from his speech writer:A couple of lines are underlined with small notation on the side.It read: 'Raise voice, weak point'
As I noted earlier, the more shrill and cynical you get, the weaker the point you make
Heshy, you might make berl's point "weaker" by posting something of substance with regard to the subject matter. Absent that, you are reinforcing his point of your being an idiot; under the circumstances, with nothing to say, most non-morons would choose to just shut up and crawl back into their hole.
If Ms. Katz is the same that posts on other lists (like Arevim) I beleive she is not originally a habad hater, or if i'm not mistaken, she is not a art scroll fan ( i believe she would actually criticize some otheir takes on many matters).
If she is same person on the other lists, actually her father had a connection with the Rebbe (Rav Volbo z"l) if i'm not mistaken and mekarev a lot of people.
---------------------------
Her father was R' Nachman Bulman ZL.
Yisroeli
Take the five seconds to read my post before you too start calling me names,ok...
Berl has a campaign against what he calls the 'ArtScroll-Judaism establishment' I pointed out that Chabad has the ability to publish books ,has a large publishing house, has printed many titles, but......is narrowly focused only on Chabad Lubavitch.Since that is the case don't dare criticise Artscroll for not giving Lubavitch the recognition Berl 'demands'
I know that KEHOS is a specialty publishing house,I was just showing that Lubavitch has the ability to publish IF THEY WANT!Obviously they have decided that no Torah carriers any weight unless it is written by a Lubavitcher. (similar to their idea of 'Lubavitcher shechita' only another Lubavitchers shechitta is kosher enough?)
Hesh,
It is not a case of Artscroll failing to include Lubavitch rather they purposely exclude it. A wink is as good as a nod to a blind horse. Something else we say in Missouri (short-i)
Truman
A factoid:The largest distributor of Artscroll books is Eichlers, owned by Meir Eichler and now run,very well, if I may add by his son Shloimy.Meir is a Lubavitcher in good standing,lives in Crown Heights and on the board of some of the largest institutions there.
So one of two things:Either Lubavitchers will do anything for money,including 'selling their soul' OR Berl is a classic rabble rousing hater a failed wannabee shliach who ended up not being sent anywhere, who's views about Artscroll are not shared by most .
Since I know Meir Eichler well(we are related)and he is an upstanding individual, I would have to go with the latter
Artscroll is unsympathetic to Chabad's grander dillusions. Perhaps this is the same as Klal Yisrael's view on Chabad- tolerance (without the package deal) that morphs into irritation when Chabadniks go into their superiority routine.
Heshy, IMHO you are well an truly a fool. An honest fool, though, which is why I will try once more in a conversation that I basically (would) consider pointless.
I pointed out that Chabad has the ability to publish books ,has a large publishing house, has printed many titles, but.....
You appear to be unable to differentiate between the principles of a free market and basic decency and honesty. On a personal level, I am free to choose to eat whosever Shechita I like, be that Lubavitch, Satmar, my brother-in-law or close friend, or nothing but Hebrew National. And that choice will not be your business. The same goes for what I choose to do with my checkbook, whether I donate to Belz, Novominsk, the Nation of Islam, Tzfatim, Hare Krishna, or all or none of the above.
The same principle applies to an organizaton that runs on public funds, on the condition that they use the money for the purposes that they outline from the start. Asking why a Hachnosas Kallah in Boro Park does not use their resources for Bikkur Cholim in Williamsburg is feeble-minded Jewish kricherrai at best, and gratuitous smearing at worst.
There are many good frum publishing houses with far more and better resources and manpower than Kehot, and we thank G-d for that. Kehot was a society that was founded in the first place to focus on Chassidic, notably Chabad seforim that nobody else was printing; to start asking why they do not print other seforim is, I hope you would agree, stupid looking-into-the-other-guy's-cholent-pot that would more than adequately qualify for admission into the moron club here.
If, and only if, Kehot would publish a list of Talmudic luminaries of the last century, and for some reason would omit Reb Elchonon, that would be good reason to assume a vendetta on the part of Kehot against Reb Elchonon. If Kehot would begin to claim to provide services to and within the broader Jewish community, and then omit people they didn't like, they would then probably be guilty of dishonesty and fraud. Of course, they do not do that; ArtScroll does. So does most of the Torah Umesorah/Agudah/Paysach Krohn - The Maggid "establishment".
IF and only IF Lubavitch had beliefs that were considered normative Orthodoxy............................
How does the 'Long live the (deceased)Rebbe' fit in?
How does saying that when alive the Rebbe was all knowing and all powerful?
People,remember:You are witnessing the birth of a new offshoot of Judaism with worship of the deceased leader aka 'Rebbe Shlita' a main tenet of their faith.
Lubab, don't snicker,offshoots of Judaism take time to develop from conception to full fledged fruition.You guys in the age of the internet super-highway are well on the way,Christianity took hundreds of years.You have already opened synagogues with the Rebbe the focus of prayer not Hashem.See Millsteins 'Lubavitch Temple' in Milwaukee.Much more to come
Harvey
after how many years will you finally decide to shut up and admit that you're wrong? Milstein from Milwaukee's offshoot is at least 6-8 years old, is there something else you can point to?
If not go hide behind a rock.
i guess that a reasonable person (sorry Harvey, i don't mean you) would shut up and admit that he was wrong in one generation, in 20 or so years.
Speaking about 'admitting' to being wrong:Why don't the Lubab 'admit' that the Rebbe passed away??(even the non meshichist, will generally not used a honorific such as zatsa'l when mentioning the Rebbes name, nor will they call the Rebbes passing, the day he was niftar, rather they''ll use a euphimism such as 'gimmel tammuz')
Will any Lubab 'admit' the Rebbe as a deceased individual is no longer a candidate for moshiach??
Talk about the pot calling the frying pan black!!
As to Millsteins new Lubab style offshoot, he is by no means the only one, another guy has even set up a blog whose name gives it away:Rebbegod.blogspot.com
This is only the beginning.The more extreme Meshichists are not very far behind (I feel funny calling them 'the more extreme meshichists' what could be more extreme and irrational than calling a dead man alive more than twelve years after the fact?!)
Many shuls and Yeshivas have pictures of the Rebbe in the prayer sanctuary a leading yeshiva in Crown Heights has a large than life portrait of the Rebbe in their sanctuary.How much longer will it take before they start praying to this icon? Don't laugh, the Rebbes picture has been used for many years to be placed under the baby's head at the bris.
But there will always be idiots who are totally blinded to REAL facts and will protect and shield their cult because they know no better.
Who would have believed twenty years ago that upon the Rebbes passing a whole cult of Elvis like devotees would evolve?Most people would not, but then again most people are dumb.Great men saw a long time ago through Lubab inc, realized it was a dangerous cult with a worship complex.Now those who did not stop it are waking up now.To little to late
Harvey, you are absolutely right. chabad is an abominable cult, the Rebbe had failed miserably; every day, this cult is resembling judaism less and less. your great people were right all along...
happy now? now get lost!
Tell him, faruq! Gevald!
a gut yontev, TA. pray for us.
Faruq
I feel bad for you.Your Russian backround with it's search for human-godheads such as 'Sun of the nations' Joe Stalin and the 'glorious' story of the young boy who turned his own father in for being a 'counter revolutionary' is where you come from.Before you misconstrue what I mean,LET ME BE CLEAR.I'm not saying you thought Stalin was anything besides the power hungry lunatic he was.That's the backround:Many Russians are looking for these godheads ,you have an innate need for it.HOW in heaven can anybody convince you using LOGIC?It's evident that anybody with a normal level of intelligence still stuck in Lubavitch is not there because of a logical conviction, they are there because they have a need to worship a hero.How else could one explain why the need of significant numbers of Lubavitchers to say the Rebbe is alive.Is such a statement logical?Of course not!But this human need of a godly hero is very real.How can one explain how a super rationalist, the mother of all cynics,Berl, can be part of a cult that worships a dead man?
"Many Russians are looking for these godheads ,you have an innate need for it."
great! now, combined with the analysis provided by Tony, my psychological profile is complete.
faruq, you don't fit the mold, don't worry.
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