If he already had a bris, why do you need to draw blood. The blood is drawn from the guilty organ, correct? Would Beis Din do this without a mohel present?
Tzemach Atlas | Homepage | 10.25.06 - 6:34 pm | #

Despite what Rabbi Berger says in the Australian Jewish News this is not the first time that R. Yoram Ulman has done this. I was part of the Beis Din for a conversion in Adelaide a few years ago and he discovered that the 5 year old boy's bris was also not done correctly. This caused a lot of anguish to the family - especially as the mohel was "officially" accepted by the orthodox rabbi there.
The family took the boy to Sydney to have the bris done "correctly". The boy got an infection and was in pain for a long while. Surprisingly his family are still frum and active in the shul in Adelaide.
NB | 10.25.06 - 7:04 pm | #

TA if the first bris was part of an invalid giur the haftofas dom bris would be needed for a new giur done under the auspices of MG and YU.
I know all three MG, YU and YB. MG and YU are both on the bes din of sydney and know halacha very well. YB is a nice guy but he is not exactly someone to ask a halachik question.
AP | 10.25.06 - 8:12 pm | #

The article says that they immediately summoned a mohel. My question: would they do a haftofas hadom without a mohel?
Tzemach Atlas | Homepage | 10.25.06 - 8:16 pm | #

You don't need a Mohel to do Hatofas Dam, it's only a needle prick.

Rabbi Ulman knows what he's doing, he's done thousands of Brissim in his days.
Nemo | Homepage | 10.26.06 - 1:17 am | #

so Gutnick and Ulman were prepared to make a quick conversion on a goy whose mother could care less for Judaism as evident in her splitting at the last minute and not accepting the recomendation of the "Judges" and Barber says who cares Bar Mitzvah a Goy, and lets Partyyyy.

Nice going Aussies.
wondering | 10.26.06 - 9:37 am | #

With apologies to all who wonderd and to wondering himself I am re-posting my comment with my correct nom de plume:

I am wondering at what else you would have had them do. According to the newspaper account the mother predictably spitting and cussing, left them for the accepting arms of other less discriminating Jews. In affect, the Rabbis of the bais din acquitted themselves quite nicely and it is evident that there was si'atta da'shamayah.

In Missouri we would say yosher ko'ach.
Truman | 10.26.06 - 11:42 am | #

Truman,

The Bais Din aquitted themselves of nothing. They were prepared and are still ready to convert a goy who obviously doesn't have the proper environment, background or support system,to justify a Giur Kahalocho.

Their "lack" of spine to set the record straight right from the start, their willingness to accept a goy as a member of their Organization is what led to this debacle.
Ca. Rabbi | 10.26.06 - 1:11 pm | #

You can go back and forth on this forever. As far as why the phenomenon exists, it's simple: As the intermarriage and assimilation rate grew, the amount of people of Jewish descent, who may have even considered themself Jewish, became involved with a Chabad/Yeshivish/MO/Msinagdish/Sefardish mosad and suddenly discovered they are not Jewish! After overcoming the initial shock, and possibly deciding to stick with Torah, they will opt for a conversion. The cases are then much dicier, and no one has issued a clear ruling, article, essay or paper on the subject: Do we want to bring them in? What are all of the considerations? What are all of the ramifications?

As far as the Aussie mother herself, consider this: You been accepted as Jewish for 13 years (or your entire life), and are suddenly told: You're not Jewish! The shock of hearing that alone can cause almost any change in behavior.

Obviously, there are Geirusen performed that are improper. I am not familiar with Russian modern society, and thus have no idea if these are "shiksas" who had Jewish great great grandmothers or shiksas who just showed up, or what the concerns are. Above are the concerns in America.

I think we may see an improvement in the next few years based on the recent crackdown of the Rabbanut and the establishment of valid regional Batei Din for Geirus. No one wants their conversions questioned by the Rabbanut.
guravitzer | 10.26.06 - 1:50 pm | #

Somebody said in an earlier comment that Australia has man geirim.A)Can anybody preferably from 'down under' tell us if it's true and B)Why are there so many?
Tsomo | 10.26.06 - 2:48 pm | #

Ca. Rabbi,

I was not aware that you are privy to all of the relevant facts and could thereby arrive at a catergorical denunciation. The matter of giur is not some well worn path that allows for easy pronouncements of kosher and posul. Take a look at what the Mechabber has to say about it as just one example of the degree of leniency that can be employed. I once questioned what I perceived was an unseemly lax attitude towards giur. I was informed that Ha Rav Zalmen Shimon z''l took into consideration the matter of whether an errant Jewish male had married and then fathered children. You might be closer to Australia than I am but you are still too distant to make any final judgment.
Truman | 10.26.06 - 2:49 pm | #

I met Rabbi Ullman a number of years ago.He is a real sweet mentlicheh guy and learned, at least by Lubavitch standards.Unfortunately he is an avowed Moshichist.After meeting a guy like him I realized that Lubavitch was in serious trouble IF a normal,sweet talmid chochom like had also bought into the yechi garbage.This was probably 6 years ago, since than unfortunately my gut feeling has been borne out.Lubavitch inc. has turned into a screaming, menacing
'in your face' Yechi slugfest.I was at the Sinchas Beis Hashoeivo in Crown Heights in the wee hours, when the real action takes place:IT was a non stop repertoire of nonsensical Moshichist 'songs', HaRebbe chay vekayom, yechi, etc ad nauseam with the yellow moshichists with their flags and yechi yarmulkas firmly in charge.Nebach, ah rachmonus auf unz oon auf zey
Pinny | 10.26.06 - 3:11 pm | #

I know Rabbi Ulman quite personally and have done a lot of Shimmush with him and the Sydney Bes Din. I know him to be a real Yiras Shomayim and Talmid Chochom. I have also studied and prepared a few Geirim for conversion.

There is no secret to the fact that he's a Mishichist. All the Rabbonim in Eretz Yisroel who he meets with are quite aware of this and don't seem to mind. He was even behind having a girl converted in Bes Din Hagadol who was initially rejected by the London Bes Din for her Mishichist beliefs.
YN | Homepage | 10.26.06 - 4:38 pm | #

yn
Thank you for making my point.I did not at all say he was 'ashamed' for being a Moshichist, though he should be.I was just stating my fear that the Moshichist phenomena is here to stay....and get a lot worse.Last step on the Jewish train is meshichisim, next stop is 'yechi boreinu' like Sokolvsky and Milchtein in Milwaukee.That's the historical process we have seen in Christianity and this seems like an encore performance, only that in the modern communications era it will be a lot faster than Christianity's hundreds of years of development
Pinny | 10.26.06 - 4:47 pm | #

Aderaba, I think it shows that Gedolei Yisroel are becoming more and more open to it.
YN | Homepage | 10.26.06 - 8:23 pm | #

I live in sydney here are a few pointers.

1) the boy was schedueled to go through with his geirus a few days before his bar mitzva he was already mekabel mitzvos and all that was missing was hatofas dam (and mikve). he had been learning for a few years and going to chabad every shabbos

2) the beis din was under the impression that he was circumsised and all that was needed was hatofas dam and were totaly surprised at the mikve when he was ready to do the giyur


4) I know all three rabbis and each one of them are highly regarded in their fields. YU and MG are dayanim on the sydney b'd and big talmidei chachomim. YB is also well learned and one of the most inspiring rabbis in sydney (he made many baalei teshuva)

5)the rabbis involved are trying to leave every door open for the boy to go ahead with a proper giyur
a.b. | 10.26.06 - 10:52 pm | #

Pinny,

I take it that you know next to nothing about the history of Christianity because if it were otherwise you wouldn't make such fascile comparisons.
Truman | 10.26.06 - 11:42 pm | #

Truman
I take it that you are a partisan Lubavitcher standing up for your 'faith'.Only somebody blinded by partisan cultish beliefs can fail to see the similarities with Christianity.Hey, have you ever heard of 'the second coming': Christian theology,right? Well Chabad also believe in a second coming of their leader as the Messiah. A small group has allready let the world know that the Rebbe is the Almighty CHAS VESHOLOM.Looking for any other similarities? Lots of them but you wouldn't know even if it knocked your dumb yechi kappel off your head.Get your head out of the ground soon.
Pinny | 10.27.06 - 1:35 am | #

Pinny,

Not only do you know nothing about Christianity you are also woefully ignorant about l'havdil, the inyan of Moshiach. Why don't you try reading Netzach Yisroel or Hayim Vital before wading into topics that are way above your head. You also display a thoroughly unseemly eagerness to castigate and hate for Jews, who for argument's sake may be confused, which only betrays the filth that lurks within you.
Truman | 10.27.06 - 12:23 pm | #

r' Truman,

Does your information also tell you that HaRav Dworkin allowed giur (after he was intermarried and fathered children) in a case where the father and consequently the children would not keep shabbos, kkashrut and tahrat hamishpocho? In a case where the child would continue his studies in let's say a non jewish school but would shabbos to synagogoue?

Lot's of misinformation the last few years, where a proliferation of false conversion in chabad circles caused false rumors and shmuoss beolmoh to make everything permissible and even MITZVO. Where in the public letters of the Rebbe do we find this? Where in the public sichos of the Rebbe do we find this? We find this trend post 3 tammuz where everything goes, whether or not the propsective convert is ready to partial observance of mitzvot, and it helps immensely if the propsective convert promises a nice sum to a building or a project in chabad.
Moshe | 10.27.06 - 12:32 pm | #

Moshe, you sound like Ma. Rabbi. The last sentence specifically is preposterous.
guravitzer | 10.27.06 - 12:49 pm | #

Moshe wrote: "… Where in the public letters of the Rebbe do we find this? Where in the public sichos of the Rebbe do we find this?"

Moshe, beli neider, as soon as I finish indexing the multitude of sicheis and letters where the Rebbe urges lay-people to publicly criticize his sheluchim and other Rabbonim (based on presumption of guilt to boot!), I will try to find the sicheis you are looking for as well. Please hold your breath.
berl, crown heights | 10.27.06 - 1:19 pm | #

Moshe,

That was the case and it seemed odd to me but who am I. I know of cases where the shalom bayis was non-existent (drug addiction, physical abuse etc.) yet Rabbi Dworkin refused to allow proceedings for a get. That family is today intact and thriving. Another case where the major problem was one immaturity and selfishness was reported and concluded in a divorce within one month. The wife went on to remarry and create a beautiful family. The former husband is on his trying for his third or fourth marriage. The crucial factor is the Rav. Any Rav worth his salt will always caution others away from applying his p'sak in one case to another. The particulars, the devil is in the details, and the siyatta d'shamayah are his domain not ours who sit in the peanut gallery. Basically, watch your tongue as you might one day find yourself hanging from your own petard.
Truman | 10.27.06 - 1:52 pm | #

Berl,

it sounds like you are being sarcastic. If that's the case and really you have a problem with Moshe criticizing Shluchim, then you have a great issue to deal with.

If Shluchim are publicly disobeying the Rebbe in his name. I.E. as a Shliach they are falsely and wrongly converting goyim something that our holy Torah and the Rebbe himself spoke so strongly against, If that is the case -- which it certainly seems so not only from this story but from tens of stories I know personally. ( check the preschools in California as one example for the amount of goyim that attend)

are we just to stay quiet and as the Rebbe said so many time ve-ain poitzeh peh?? The Rabbonim themselves privately say its a sham. They themselves are afraid to confront establishment!!!!


No one gives a sh## at what's happening in Chabad today. It's free for all from all the way on the top down. The more money and the more power equals the more prestige in the current corporate atmosphere.

We need new leadership and out with all the incumbents.They can NOT be redeemed.

PS whats up with Sicheis and Teirah. How about Toirah or Torah and Sichois or Sichos.
Ca. Rabbi | 10.27.06 - 1:54 pm | #

or nooooo, here it goes...
Tzemach Atlas | Homepage | 10.27.06 - 2:03 pm | #

Tzemach, you invite one rabbi to your forum, and look what happens...

So now we have a Rabbi who disavows differences in pronunciation, loshon hora and rechilus, denies possibility of redemption, and lies in the name of Rabbonim. With this sort of "rabbi", who needs corrupt shluchim to game the system?
guravitzer | 10.27.06 - 2:19 pm | #

guravitzer, wouldn't you be on the lookout to protect the above mentioned leadership? You should recluse yourself from the discussion. Or reveal who you are.
Tzemach Atlas | Homepage | 10.27.06 - 2:24 pm | #

Sophomoric comments such as "out with the incumbents" sounds like nothing more than the steam emitted from an immature mind on overdrive. Out on the farm when someone did something that obviously lacked any true forethought we called it chickensh##t.
Truman | 10.27.06 - 2:27 pm | #

Good luck in trying to figure out 'what the Rebbe wanted'. One could probably bring proof to any side of the discussion from one sich or another, from a 'non mugedik' sicha as a last resort or make up some bobbeh mayseh from R'Zalman Shimon and 'force' us to accept it, just like Truman, the deep analytical preacher.
Simple task:What did the Rebbe hold about WHO is Moshiach, did he mean himself?The Frierdiger Rebbe? Both ?(nishmoso bi)None of the above?Has no importance who it is, just let him come?Second coming?.For any of the above you''ll have another Lubab bringing proof from noch a sicha (or SICHAYS ala Berl,CrAYn Heights)or Letter or 'baich' sevoro.
Good luck.
P.S Truman:Make sure to ask the doc to readjust your hallucinatory meds and make sure your bog yechi/boreinu kappel stays on your head.
pinny | 10.27.06 - 2:52 pm | #

There is no real good way to transliterate a Litvishe cheilom:
True, the way I do it makes it sound like a tzeire, which is, strictly speaking, wrong. A really good way would be ‘EU’ or ‘EW’ (which is also similar to one Yemanite rendition), but when you actually try using it in print, no one will be able to read a single word: "teuroh, bayeum...". So I stick to the imperfect 'EI'.

Among other pronunciations, the German 'OU' is the only one that makes grammatical sense.
The rest are problematic:
- 'OI' is identical to komatz followed by yud (like at the end of sheim 'ad-noi')
- 'OH' is identical to komatz godeil
- 'O' is identical to komatz kotein
berl, crown heights | 10.27.06 - 3:19 pm | #

Ca. Rabbi,
You, naturally, did not understand the meaning of my original comment, not did you identify the cause of my sarcasm.
berl, crown heights | 10.27.06 - 3:23 pm | #

Only great, geniuses understand Berl.
Hey, freak, your pomposity knows no bounds.You define yeshus.
denim | 10.27.06 - 3:33 pm | #

You are right Tzemach, as always. Please scratch the loshon Hora and rechilus from the list of sins.
guravitzer | 10.27.06 - 3:38 pm | #

"Pease scratch the loshon Hora and rechilus from the list of sins."

or nooooo, here it goes...
berl, crown heights | 10.27.06 - 3:40 pm | #

about the comment of the baal gaavoh sheyn loy gvul vessof (which btw is a comment d'tmihoh: after all he is guilty of the same crime on this same venue etc.): See a halocho bruroh Admur Hazoken in Shluchon Oruch Orach chayim 156 seif 7-9, also simon 608. See also Talmud Brochos 19b. AS i saved him some time, i hope that he now has the sufficient time to find the other mareh mekomoss. Or maybe not, for it is not kday to argue with him (al derech sanhedrin 38b).

To r' truman,I cannot argue with what you perceive to be true. But to convince others that what you're saying is the objective truth you should provide some name of a convert that we can verify that RZS OH said what you said he said. Until then, the chazokoh is that RZS would NOT convert or tell someone who is not shomer shabbos, kashrus, taharas hamishpocho to convert.

In addition: Since he did not give anyone guideliness on how to rule on these matters; one cannot imply from the cases what he would rule to current situations.

The pashtus in poskim (as it is recorded in writing and we can verify together what they said and the rationale they used as opposed to cryptic descriptions without guideliness how to pasken etc.) from many spectrums is : if there is no shabbos, kashrus, taharas hamishpocho on a very basic level can make the whole gerus retroactively invalid, let alone to convert him lechatlchila!

Al achas kamoh vekamoh, when what we have from the written writings of the Rebbe he places the meaning of kabbalat mitzvos in gerus at a very high level and is very "orthodox" in it's definition and about the halachik ramifications thereof (for instance: whereas some in the velt feel that there is room for leniency in kabbalat hamitzvos by children's conversion the Rebbe's position in letters is clearly to the contrary). So too in his Letters.

al achas kamoh vekamoh when there are issues of chillul hashem (in a certain gerus) certainly it seems that there is no indication for such heterim; on the contrary.
moshe | 10.27.06 - 4:31 pm | #

I onced knew a psychiatrist whose professional manner during initial interviews, was cool, deliberate and aloof. (Aside from being a brilliant diagnostician he also possessed a deep intuition.) People with personality disorders were terrified of him. On one occasion a patient rushed out of the interview declaring, "that man is not human." If any of his colleagues ever had any doubt about whether or not someone was suffering from a personality disorder they would schedule an appointment with the above mentioned psychiatrist. It worked every time.

berl's (lowercase becaue of his humility) postings serve a similar function. The resultant ranting, howls and foaming at the mouth signal the achievement of something similar to exact resonance to a musician tuning his intrument. The perfect note and pitch has been struck. The raving tells us all we need to know about you and here's a napkin to wipe your lips.

As we would say at the ol' fishing hole. Boys we got us another one.
Truman | 10.27.06 - 4:52 pm | #

Moshe,

"In addition: Since he did not give anyone guideliness on how to rule on these matters; one cannot imply from the cases what he would rule to current situations." Isn't that contained in what I wrote, "Any Rav worth his salt will always caution others away from applying his p'sak in one case to another."

My purpose is not to argue the merits of any particular case as I am not a Rav and I don't know all the facts. Neither do I need to defend the absolute necessity to adhere to halacha. It doesn't need my defense. Rather, I am cautioning against a prevalent tendency to ascribe the worst motives without ascertaining all of the facts and doing so in inappropriate forums.
Truman | 10.27.06 - 5:02 pm | #