mentalblog.com comments:
What was Chof Sivan?
Sigh.
I know this is a VERY tired issue – especially here. I was pretty young when the events took place, and at the time I didn’t really understood the minutiae that led up to 5 Teves / “Didan Natzach” (which has always been one of the most annoying songs – I got sick of that tune fast, even then). The events were tragic in so many ways…
But there is a basic problem that cannot be solved here. The private lives – that we generally would respect as private, and we really would have had this not occurred – of many people got dragged out and beaten up, driven by many agendas. Unfortunately, all the garbage gets in the way of a very simple story:
1. An act was committed that was clearly improper – enough with the rationales behind it.
2. Long dormant issues about the Rebbe’s right to nesius were brought to the fore – clearly attacking the Rebbe’s legitimacy, and essentially (similar in concept to the Iranian summit to deny the Holocaust) attempting to delegitimize Lubavitch, which is an attack on everything Lubavitch holds dear. In this way it is an attack on all the Rabbeim going back even to the Alter Rebbe.
3. We witnessed the out of control fall-out do quite a bit of damage, with many, many repercussions.
There needs to be a fair minded look at what were talking about:
1. The Rebbe. This is a man who was clearly dedicated – and this is not disputable by honest people – to Torah, Mitzvos, and Ahavas Yisroel. There is no one that worked harder to rebuild Yiddishkeit and Chassidus in the world that he was faced with.
2. Barry Gourary. A tragic person, really. I think it’s terribly sad that he has become a villain. I’m sure he was a man that was in a very tough spot, and sadly this entire episode resulted in what, in my opinion, has done real damage to the legacy of so many people. The family of the Previous Rebbe! Many Chassidim probably cannot forgive him for this, and lay the blame at his feet – which isn’t all that unfair a position.
3. The enemies of Lubavitch. People like Cohen / Fogel, whatever his name is have nothing noble about their position. There position has absolutely no legitimacy, other than simple hatred. The hilarious irony is that he and his kind do the same and worse to those that they don’t like as the despicable bochur did to Chana Gourary – yet they use this to further an agenda solely built on mindless hatred. Puhleeze! How much credibility are we going to give such human debris?
Chaasidim are, and should be, devoted to the Rebbe. When the Rebbe is under attack, they are, and should be, going to feel attacked as well. This is not a sin, this is the proper attitude for a chossid to have; what IS improper is for Chassidim to beat their chests in haughtiness and spew words of hate… As a close relative of mine tried to tell anyone who would listen at the time this all took place: “One “AHA!” sets a Chossid back 50 years in Avoda!”
To me 5 Teves is a day of mixed emotions, but the point of it all – it seems to me – is that it’s a day that this Lubavitch was ruled to be the legitimate heir. And it’s a day to undertake sedorim in Limud haChassidus in an attempt to battle the negative with something positive…
I'm confused. Didn't Judge Clifton rule in favor of Rebbe/Aguch? Why/How are people discussing $$$ settlement?
And I'm curious what Avni/Chadashot wrote that qualifies as "nuclear."
A mental exercise:
Imagine you are Abrohom Avinu visualizing how blessings and the covenant take shape in the multitude to come.
Now imagine you are RAYATZ looking from above at the perishing of your daughter in Holocaust, then at the bitter fight of your childless grandchildren with your only childless grandson. Gloating about this is inhuman.
TA,
I couldn't agree with you more.
cross-eyed, the settelemnet was for the case brought up or threatened to be brought up related to Rebbe being an instigator of the resulted attempted murder and beating of Chana Gourary, Barry's mother. This was settled.
Shneur,
I thought you had more seichel. (I know what your allegiances are, but that is not nogaya klal). You can say what you want. You know as well as I that you can find gedolei poskay Yisroel who can and did pasken about this case (either way) so don't get carried away with 'doing away with hilchos yerusha'. If you were so close to "Bere" you know very well that he wanted to grind the axe.
Details have been published by Harav Moshe Bogomilsky as to which poskim etc. You can read for yourself.
They never accepted the Rebbe as Rebbe (blame them or not) and as far as they were concerned the Chabad Lubavitch Movement that had Beis Chabad etc. was not Chassidus etc. veyehi lahem asher lahem.
It took a smart nochry (after "Bere" said that once it's in court [for restraining order purposes] er gait nit tzu din Tayreh] to realize how ludicrous the taaneh that Lubavitch is non functional is. As far as Yerusha is concerned historicly it went both ways and in this case the Frierdike Rebbe gave it over (even if he was "forced" by circumstance) to Agudas Chassidei Chabad and never asked them to give it back. This is of course in addition to all the ruchniyus that a Rebbe belongs to Chassidim etc. which of course your fleishige oigen and and heart can't see or believe!
Any self respecting Rav can issue the same psak as Sifton al pi halacha. BTW the yoima depagra of Yud tes Kislev and Pesach were also "paskened" by Goyim!!!
Umesaamim betoiv, since you continue to learn in seforim, let's hope that there will be the inyan of "oisiyois machkimois"!!!!!
IN Yiddish there is a saying "Baym Ganef brent dos hittel".
Barry Gourary had no kitrug on the nesius neither did Channa Gourary, Although they both thought someone else was more "raui" to the job ,but by 1986 they had made peace with reality , which in the human sense was sad for all the remaining 6 members of the Royal family.
Only in the mind of someone who perhaps in the deepest recesses of his heart and mind felt that he really was not the right person for the position did this public need for approval suddenly arise. Perhaps that person knew what the Rayaatz stated in his will or felt that in fact the sole eynikel was closer to the Rayaatz than he was while in West Europe.
The Rebbe knew Bere wanted money and that nesius was not the issue, but to blur the issues he raised the issueof a kitrug on his nesius .
And pray tell me did a Besdin rule on the legitimacy of the Nesius, no it was an "orel" who did according to Chukei Akum. How is this of any importance for a heimishe Yid. Perhaps Rabbi Schick could get an American or British judge to rule that he is the Admor of Bratzlav and the heir of Rav Nachman , i am sure that reb Michoel Dorfman Z"L would have chapped a hispaylus from such a ruling and immediately called Reb Schick and coronated him as the new rav Nachman !!!
I am also interested what the taitsch is of the whole parsha of "asher Nasi yechte"??? Is this refering to a hedyot or a gadol be Israel ?
Finally to remove materials one feels is his according to rules of yerushah is not an improper act, it may be disputable but not improper, To use the logic of Lubavitch if it was so clearly improper why did it take the gaon Judge Sifton almost a year to rule on something our correspondent rules clearly improper ?
Friends, for all the years until 1986 the Chabad communtiy thought of these books as the proerty of the Schneersohn family that had not been divided. So i was told in the 1970's by every Lubavitcher I talked to (of course in those days these people were mostly geza).
Rebbetzin Nechama Dina wrote a will indicating clearly that thats what she believed. the libraian who built the collection the RACHAL thought so, the Rashag who never left his shvers side thought so too.
Only 1 person thought differently. I recall when the case first started a zaken Anash told me "ich mish zich nit" and this was a man dedicated to the 7th rebbe. So things were not that clear.
In my hours of conversations with Barry , the idea of his becoming a rebbe never came up. The crowd in Williamsburg wanted him to open a BM and declare himself a rebbe, but he refused.
This idea of a kitrug was promolgated by someone who had serious psychological doubts about his own legitimate right to the post .So instead of working it out with Prof Freud who the 5th rebbe consulted , this person decided to amke a public issue of a family tragedy nad drag everyone to bizyonoth.
Pray tell me which gedolei haposkim ruled in the rebbes behalf, Rav Yosef ? rav Vozner ? rav Elyashev ? Rav Chaskel Roth ? rav Ehrentrau of London ?Rav Padwa of london, Reb David Cohen ? Rabbi Belsky ?the Badatz of the eda ?Reb Moshe Halberstam ? I am interested in knowing which serious poskim with no negioth ruled that Barry had no rights of yerusha .
'Moshe Bogomilsky' - right. This is from the fellow who is still mad at not translating the siddur and who spent every shiur in yeshiva, I kid you not, analyzing how the English translation of the Siddur by Mindel is all in error. What a genius! What an authority.
tzemach...it was not moshe bogomilsky but his brother shmuel pesach in new jersy ,please check you facts................
If he had a right to take the books is that why he took them surreptitiously?
You are just like the regular son'im! Who paid Lieberman (and bought books) after 1950???
Again I repeat, any self respecting Rov or poisek who reads the case as geviyas eidus paskens the same way.
A Nosi does not lie!
Learn Chassidus and you'll undersatnd what: 1. "Asher"; 2. "Nosi"; 3. "Yechetta" means. Learn about Teshuva eela'ah (preceeded by your performance of teshuva tata'ah).
The good news is that at least you recognize "nosi" - albeit as "facts on the ground".
You know very well that "Bere" died as a broken, sad, malcontented individual. He is the one who started and perpetuated the "feud". He didn't let der fetter come to his chassuna etc.
Even under the "status quo" no one ever bothered him or his mother or his father! He did heseiba in front of the Rebbe and no one could care less. They just couldn't face the fact that dynamic "uncle" took Lubavitch to the Jet age and on! Bere said it in as many words...
Since you have a good imagination: Let's say in 1985 he wanted to come and daven downstairs in 770. He would have gotten kavod melachim litterally. He would have sat in the Mizrach and oiben un baim Farbrengen. His trimmed beard (or anything about him) wouldn't have bothered anyone. So, in light of this fantasy who was the bitter one?
Tzfania if you really think that Barry could have come to 770, even casually, and not being considered a threat to succession by Krinsky, Shemtov and Co. you are out of you mind.
He came, went upstairs and no one said a word!
'no one said a word!'
I think I will start banning naivety as much as I try to ban stupidity.
TA,
I have no real way of knowing (personally, I would be inclided to think that nobody would have given Barry any trouble, farkert, by that time I think that most people would have been very kovodik), but if not for this, why do you think Krinsky, S"T, et al, would have been so troubled by Barry showing his face then?
And even if they were opposed to Barry ever taking over, I don't think succession was all that much of a threat by that point anyway. No?
I am not talking about a spiritual succession. I mean he could have laid claim to a large chunk of his grandfather's property including 770 and perhaps even Rebbe's property.
Perhaps there would have been concerns - I'm sure they always maintained some concern of the sort - but do you think this would have manifest itself in violence or ugly behavior?
I have seen perfectly nice people who become villains when their power is threatened in any way. So I will quote a second peroson who also reads this blog and who heard it from one of the characters in the saga. There is a kabolla (tradition) by chasiddim that the Rebbes do mekabel loshe hora...
The description of the death of Barry Gourary is very imaginative where you there at Ishkavta De Rabbi?
The Nasi himself and I say this without glee passed away in less than a manner of Misas neshika which is spoken of in the seforim hakedoshim.The rebbe hot zich opgemateret chadoshim lang unter die getrier ufzicht fun zaine gabboyim.
Why should anyone have bothered the Rashag and Chana, because they did not participate in the personality cult?
But your comment about Lubavitch in the Jet age says it all. Why did anyone need to take Lubavitch to the Jet age Voz teyg nit die alte veggen? You get to the destination fast, but you don't see the scenery. Vehamavin yavin.
Trimmed beard of Barry, such a beard is better than no beard which marked the identity of other close family members of the Nasi who get more than a bit of kavod.
In addition Barry's fashion statement seems to have been copied nowadays by many Lubavitcher yungeleit and bachurim including more than a few shluchim. What gives? the next thing you know they will be wearing baseball caps too!!
Tzfania spent long hours with Barry Gourary to know that "Bere" died as a broken, sad, malcontented individual.” Further he would be revealing the secrets of wholesome, happy and content death on mentalblog.com soon.
Shneur,
Your most recent post was partially "kolaya el hasaara" (if that's possible ; ) )
Lubavitch takes in the scenery of the whole world. Jets help that!
I knew you'd catch the beard nuance! Better to ask a yid voo iz dayn burd than ask a burd voo is dayn yid. But that's a completely different discussion....
Tzemach,
You know that I only relay firsthand information... Those in the know are well aware of the truth of my statement. I need not (and won't) elaborate...
Umesaamim betoiv ain toiv elah torah!
Didan [dehasfarim - sifrei torah] notzach!!!
"You know that I only relay firsthand information..."
No, I don't know and find your comment viscously mean. Out of the all comments on this blog I find these references the most saddening.
Might as well say that jet age or not the Rebbe failed to bring Moshiach and his and all of his believers death is 'broken, sad, malcontented' if they are honest with themselves.
Schneur. Did Bere ever tell you that he wanted to settle this with a Din Torah
Yes, Barry told me that he attempted to bring the matter to Besdin.
I am not tat naive to take this statement as a complete truth.
But it does show that both sides were not eager for a besdin.
Krinsky is quoted in the NYT as saying that halacho has no cease and desisit remedy and therefore he HAD to seek relief from the US court system. I was told by talmidim that when the RAV heard this he said it was a Chilul hashem to describe the Jewish legal systen has unable to provide relief.
TA,
Your cooments and questions that you ask, only show how ignorant you are on this subject and on any other subject regarding Chabad. You claim to be open minded, but in truth you are the most naive individual. You'll beleive anything anyone ever tells you as long as it fits into your sick agenda.
"Didan [dehasfarim - sifrei torah] notzach!!"
Hasefarim sifrei Torah??????? I think the ban on naivete is definitely called for. This hey Teves has reached some epic mythical proportion. It was little more than a family squabble gone out of hand.
Watch living Torah to see Nat Lewin quoting Hellerstein (who has since become a judge) that they want it in court. Same is in Bogomilsky's booklet.
Also see Levin pp 28-29 for a step by step backgrouind proof of the case (which would get the same psak din al pi Torah from any posek). (Reference to the 48 page booklet he just published (printable version on shturem in the archives [search לוין]))
let me try again:
[20 Sivan]
34 Jewish men and 17 Jewish women were burned at the stake in Blois France, 1171, as a result of the first ritual-murder trial in Europe. Rabbeinu Tam declared a fast day to mark the event. The day was confirmed as a fast day centuries later, in Poland, following the murder of 6000 Jews of Niemirov during the Chmielnicki massacres, 1648. Many Siddurim have Slichot for Kaf Sivan.
Although Yom Yerushalayim is 28 Iyar, 20 Sivan marks the day that Israel annexed the Old City and officially untied all of Jerusalem, 1967.
I think you mean united, not untied.
BTW, we are all waiting to hear relayed the Nuclear missile aimed by BG in the newspaper article.
Lest I be accused of plagiarism the typo and the quote is from here:
http://www.ou.org/about/judaism/...ebrew/
sivan.htm
regarding the missile Schenur said he does want to repeat it. But he also thinks that perhaps this was the origin of Rebbe's anger at Barry.
It seems highly relevant.
I don't see what something that is already in the public domain (having been published in a newspaper) can be brushed under the carpet.
DELETED stupid
Edited By Siteowner
IMHO, 5 Teves was the beginning of the takeover of Lubavitch by the PR machine. The Rebbe's death, the unravelling Chabad, the paralysis of modern Israel and the tsunami of nihilism, apathy and despair tell us we haven't fund the way of golus yet.
By the way Shneur, thanks for the trivia that Sifton was Reihnhold Neibuhr's a eidem.
I didn't know that before, but it's cool.
Neibuhr, of course, is the author of the famous "Serenity Prayer" popularized by the Alcoholics Anonymous.
God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
the courage to change the things I can;
and the wisdom to know the difference.
It's a great vort.
Tony: It's a Beferushe NYT!!!
The New York Times
January 7, 1987, Wednesday, Late City Final Edition
SECTION: Section B; Page 3, Column 1; Metropolitan Desk
LENGTH: 681 words
HEADLINE: JUDGE AWARDS RABBI'S LIBRARY TO HASIDIC UNIT
BYLINE: By ARI L. GOLDMAN
BODY:
The question of who owns a valuable Jewish library of more than 40,000 books and manuscripts was decided yesterday when a Federal District judge in Brooklyn rejected the claims of a grandson of a Hasidic rabbi and awarded the library instead to the Lubavitch community that the rabbi once headed.
In a decision peppered with Hebrew and Yiddish phrases that includes a short course on Lubavitch history, Judge Charles P. Sifton of the Eastern District declared that his findings were ''inescapable.''
''The conclusion is inescapable that the library was not held by the Sixth Rebbe at his death as his personal property, but had been delivered to plaintiff to be held in trust for the benefit of the religious community of Chabad Chasidism,'' he said.
The ruling was received with joy on the streets in front of the headquarters of the plaintiff, the Lubavitch movement, at 770 Eastern Parkway in the Crown Heights section of Brooklyn. Hasidic men in traditional black garb danced in circles to the music of a klezmer band.
Issue Divided Family
A lawyer for the defendant, Barry S. Gourary, said he planned to appeal the decision.
The ruling capped an emotional legal battle that divided the family of the seventh and current Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem M. Schneerson, an uncle of Mr. Gourary, and opened the inner workings of the Hasidic movement to the public.
In a three-week trial in December 1985, the case was argued by prominent lawyers, including Nathan Lewin of Washington and Alvin K. Hellerstein of New York. Non-Hasidic experts in Hasidism were called, including Elie Wiesel, the Nobel laureate, Dr. Louis Jacobs of London and Rabbi Arthur Green of Philadelphia.
Mr. Gourary, a 63-year-old management consultant from Montclair, N.J., claimed that the library was the private property of his grandfather, Rabbi Joseph I. Schneerson, and was passed down - via his widow and his two daughters - to him. #400 Books Removed The Lubavitch went into court to establish its claim of ownership after Mr. Gourary removed 400 of the books from the library, at the Crown Heights headquarters, and began selling them to rare-book dealers in Europe. He made $186,000 before he was enjoined by the courts from proceeding with the sales.
Judge Sifton, who was married to the daughter of the late Christian theologian Reinhold Niebuhr, uses the language of the Lubavitchers throughout his 41-page decision. He writes of ksovim (manuscripts), seforim (books), ma'amad (dues), pidyon (redemption) and haas v'sholom! (God forbid!). The judge also prefered the Hebrew-sounding ''Chasid' to the Anglicized 'Hasid' and often refers to the Lubavitchers by their communal name, Chabad.
To a large extent, the decision turns on what the judge calls ''one extraordinary letter'' from Rabbi Joseph Schneerson, the sixth rebbe, to an American scholar, Dr. Alexander Marks, the former head of the library at the Jewish Theological Seminary in New York. The letter was written in 1946 as part of the rabbi's effort to get the library out of Poland. Leaving the books behind, the rabbi had fled the Nazis six years earlier and set up a new Lubavitch headquarters in Brooklyn.
''I turn to you with a great request,'' Dr. Schneerson wrote, ''that as a renowned authority on the subject, you should please write a letter to the State Department to testify on the great value of these manuscripts and books for the Jewish people in general and particularly for the Jewish community of the United States to whom this great possession belongs.''
Lawyers for Mr. Gourary characterized the letter as ''duplicitous and of a piece with the wartime letters in German intended to be read by the Nazi censor,'' according to the judge.
But Judge Sifton rejected the argument. ''Not only does the letter, even in translation, ring with feeling and sincerity,'' he wrote, ''it does not make much sense that a man of the character of the Sixth Rebbe would, in the circumstances, mean something different than what he says, that the library was to be delivered to plaintiff for the benefit of the community.''
Nu, what's the nuclear-tipped missile?
(Shneur, your "analysis" about insecurities and low self-esteem etc. is positively delusional and not up to your usually high standards of commenting...)
regarding the Serenity Prayer: Some people claims that he plagirized it... According to Wikipedia his authorship was later confimed by Elisabeth Sifton in her book Serenity Prayer.... the good people at Wiki "forgot" to mention that she was his daughter, even though she didn't hide it...
דידן נצח is a joke outside Lubavitch. How can you take seriously a chassidus that makes a holiday of winning a דין תורה?
The Rebbe exhibited great wisdom at the beginning of his נשיאות, but there was a slow descent downhill over the decades, beginning with the six day war, continuing with the bickering with Satmar over Entebbe, through דידן נצח and culminating with the tragedy of the משיח campaign where he implied that he was משיח. I leave it to greater historians than myself to provide an interpretation of this sad saga.
yehuda ah stamr bleibe ah stamar
Rabbi Hischprung Zal the chief Rabbi of Montreal and Rabbi Efraim Fishel Hershkowitz of AV Bais din of Klauzenberg and one of the leading Gedolim now both Paskened the Sefarim Belonged to the Chasidim
Both rulings I have
How did abovementioned rabonim pasken without a Din Toyro?
the same beis din shel maale that paskened that the Rebbe should nisgale mamash now!
YOu have to read the ruling it was simple and written clear.
We all agree Rabbi Hirschprung was one of the biggest Gedolim and the last living person who knew shas Bal Peh with Mifarshim.
Rabbi Hershkowitz is 90 years old and lives in Williamsburg and is one of the bigest Gedolim now alive.
He is also a Mumche in Antique Sefarim and old Kisvei Yads etc..
Call him and ask him.
And I believe another rov also did.
That list is not Marlow or Asdaba those are not Lubavitcher Rabonim and Not Mishichistim and Rabbi Hirschprung was not even a CHosid.
Reb Neil
Shneur> What has become of all Bere Gurarys posesions? Did he leave over kesavim that his grandfather gave him. He must have had many objects and other things and pictures from the Beis Harav. What has become of it all.
Reb Neil,
You can present all the proof in the world, but these people will never look at this or anything that has to do with Chabad objectivley. They are naive kool-aid drinkers, and unfortunately believe anything that presents the Rebbe and Lubavitch in a negative way.
Just take a look on Schneur's comment above, "Pray tell me which gedolei haposkim ruled in the rebbes behalf, Rav Yosef? rav Vozner? rav Elyashev? Rav Chaskel Roth? rav Ehrentrau of London? Rav Padwa of london, Reb David Cohen? Rabbi Belsky? the Badatz of the eda? Reb Moshe Halberstam? I am interested in knowing which serious poskim with no negioth ruled that Barry had no rights of yerusha". Now that we know that there were poskim that paskened on behalf of the Rebbe, without "negioth", that is not good enough becaue there was no Din Torah. As you can see that these people will never give up their vicious agenda and hate, no matter what.
Rav Yosef? rav Vozner? rav Elyashev
The psak is from Chasidiehs Rabonim
Would you expect Eliyashiv to ask Rabbi Osdaba a Psak...
Rabbi Hirschprung was although not a Lubob he was a rosh yeshiva here.
But again could you tell me anyone of the list who knew shas Bal Peh at 17. Or The Rosh at 19. And SHulchan Aruch at 24
1. You can't have a pesak w/o a din torah. Both sides need to be heard. If Hirshprung (who was, let's say, a closet Lubavitcher for many years) and the Klasenberger rav issued pesak dinim w/o a din Torah, those pesak dinim are a) worthless and b) show motivation.
2. I spoke with Barry Gourarie a few weeks before he died. He was not broken, He was not "repentant." And he had nothing bad to say about his uncle. He was mentch, unlike most of the people commenting here about him.
3. As for Schneur's "nuclear tipped missile," I agree it (actually them) should be made public. I hope they will be soon.
Hey Neil -
You can give a Rabbi for R' Osdoba and even manage a Reb for yourself but nothing for R' Elyashiv? Just because you're a lubi doesn't mean Torah scholarship shouldn't be respected - even if it belongs to a litvak.
Rabbi Neil. How many farbrengungs did Rav Hirszprung attend .... and how much kavod did the Nasi give him ? Was he paid as rosh yeshiva in MOntreal ? And you claim he is a "honest broker".
By the way he also signed off somewhere in outerspace proclaimig the Nasi as the Messiah
Rav Herskowitz (I have seen him) and he is held in great repute. But did he hear the other Tsad or was he even given the correct facts.Did his chaverim on the Kluizenberg besdin agree with him ?
Did any other Admorim support the rebbe's claim ?Can we say that the Skverer rebbe, Rav Motele Vishnitzer, Rav Itzikel of rachmistrivke, the Sadigerer rebbe , the kopishnitzer all abcked the rebbe ?How about the Gerer rebbe ?
Did the same scores of banshaks, rebbes, rabbis roshe kollel from the hassidic world who show up at Butman's Rambam event support the rebbe here. Did Rav Elye Fisher of Gur support the rebbe ?
Did Rabbi Bick endorse the rebbe's position. How about the Beth Din of New Square ? Did Rav Neuman of Popa -Belz Montreal Hashem yishlach lo refuah bekarov endorse the psotion. Did the Naroler rav Rabbi Schapiro (a good friend of Chabad) who served as a rav in Poland and is one of the oldest Chassidic rabonim in the world endorse the rebbe's position ?
Did Rav Moshe Wolfason back the Rebbe ? Did any of the Vishnitzer rabbonim endorse the rebbe ?
How about the rav fo Radomishla Rav Elchonon halperin of Golders Green can we count him ?
Did the rebbe's good frined Menashe Hakatan back the rebbe ?
So we are left with Rav Fishel Herskowitz . hardly a decisive backing.
Someone should put the entire court proceedings on the web. Many people would be very interested.
knock yourself out Yehuda, it is here:
http://www.mentalblog.com/2005/0...rsus-
barry.html
There is no proceedings there just the list of documents and dates
Regarding Harav Menasheh Hakatan - see Bogomilsky.
Sorry for the last post. I see that the size of the posts are limited. So I posted the rulings here:
http://booksruling.blogspot.com/
it is the full text of the district court and the appeals court desicions in the case.
This troubles me, I spoke to a good friend of mine last night , who does not have a computer. He reports that the Bogomilsky book states that when a Chabad delagation came to rav Fishel Herskowitz for a posative psak,(the rebbe wanted a non Chabad rav to pasken) he said that he needs to hear the other side too.
This is not exactly what some have stated on this thread.
I do not have the book, so I am a bit confused as to the truth.
I have doubts if Chabad had even 1 halachic authority backing their position and if even 1 chassidic rebbe morally supported the campaign. grave doubts indeed.
"We all agree Rabbi Hirschprung was one of the biggest Gedolim and the last living person who knew shas Bal Peh with Mifarshim."
i will have to disagree with you because
there are still people that that know full shas with Mifarshim by hart.
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