mentalblog.com comments:
What you are expecting of Yoel would be the same as my expecting of you to see light, joy and hope in the world consistently. It is not a part of you, and what you expect is not a part of him.
No, Yoel is not off his mind. If he would have said more dangerous personally, you would be correct. But they didn't degrade the Rebbe, in fact they upgraded him to a Public Enemy. They never laughed at him. The Chay Vekayam's (and in my opinion the Meshichisten as a whole) create laughter.
guravitzer, i do not understand.
You don't understand how they are more degrading, or what Yoel is like?
Yoel claims that the important shlichus is to 'breng rebbe'n in velt' i.e to show every Jew and non Jew how unique and special the Rebbe was.
So now Judaism boils down to convincing the masses about how unique your rebbe is?
This nonsensical agenda is no better than the Meshichists.
And the lubavichers thought the gedolim who criticized the rebbe, where trying to hurt him. Now even R. Yoel gets it.
The energy is gone.
Chabad has 2 directions and no direction. On one side, the chassidus of the past is replaced with the outreach of the moment, which is now completely commercialized and detached from the chassidus that spawned it. Like a hollow doll, when touched it collapses in on itself with a message no longer backed by substance. On the other they hang on the brilliant vision which is now like a faded photograph from the past, the colors bled into a dull image that's merely an echo of what was or could have been. One looks at the at the photo with a grandparent, seeing the joy and reflection in their eyes with no connection to a vision which is now only a memory and goal of a generation gone by.
The shefa of cheskas moshiach is gone from Chabad.
May Hashem have mercy and bring Moshiach b'gashmius b'olam hazeh mamash now.
Akiva, what you say can be applied to Judaism as a whole since the churban, and in every generation compared to the previous.
I see there is tremendous misunderstanding of who Yoel is. Reb Yoel is a hermit, the perfect absent minded professor, the intellectual whose brilliance brings them to every topic under the sun but cannot relate even one of those topics to reality.
Reb Yoel is the perfect transistor to transmit the Torah of the Rebbe and Chabad in its purest terms, and elucidate it on that level. When he attempts any practical application of this, or when you attempt to understand and apply what he explains without a deep background in Chasidus, you will fail utterly.
When Reb Yoel proclaimed that according to Chabad Chasidus the Rebbe is Moshiach, he was speaking in the realms of Yechidah SheB'Nefesh with no thought as to how that filters through to Olam Hazeh HaGashmi. When Yoel proclaims that Aguch must be followed in every dictum, he is thinking of the levels of Elokus in which BaKol Mosholoh. When Yoel speaks of Chay VeKayam or not, he is thinking of the kista dechayusa of Elokus which is nislabesh in the body. When Reb Yoel proclaims any practical application of any of the above, he has no idea what he is talking about.
I have not yet bothered to read the interview, and I am sure some day I will. It is irrelevant for all practical purposes.
guravitzer, if what you say about RYK is true (and I have no idea whether it is), how could he have been given the responsibility of being a mashpia to impressionable bochrim?
A "little" perspective on guravitzer and Boruch's last posts.
The point of Judaism, certainly of the Judaism sold under the Chabad brand name, is to ultimately prove (or "ufton", or something in-between) that the realities of G-dliness and of "this world" (or better put, reality of G-dliness and "reality" of this world) are not only not mutually exclusive or incompatible, but are inherently part of one, higher order. G-d Himself created this world with all of its inherent contradictions, both its internal contradictions and that as a whole it contradicts כביכול His existence. So "contradictions" between the two are by definition absurd.
Problem is, that for us, steeped in everything from the stock market to philosophical problems of Evil existing in the world, etc etc etc, this is a tall order. One that can be addressed from one of two perspectives:
1) From the point of view of G-dliness, of course all the issues that we grapple with for all our lives, individually and collectively, do not pose a problem in the first place; they exist only for us, mere mortals (though our being mortal has nothing to do with it; the same goes for any corporeal or spiritual inhabitant of any created "world", physical or spiritual).
The problem is that we are mere mortals, so this approach is (or, would be) completely irrelevant if not for one caveat, to be elaborated on soon.
2) For the rest of us, there is only one way to go, which is "durchblondgen" through life and practicing trial and error, much as true Sholom Bayis, to the exclusion of any disagreements/fights between husband and wife, is unattainable except through many years of living together and being forced by practical necessities of life to work out kinks in the relationship.
All of our human efforts to bridge the gap between the worldly and the G-dly, the puny and the Real, fall squarely into category 2. The lone exception we were provided by G-d in His boundless mercy, is one "person", who indeed bridges the gap, who is in this world the "ambassador", if you will, of the first approach, of G-d: the Rebbe.
In the face of the reality that barring the Rebbe, we are dealing only with the possibility of hammering into our pathetic mind/heart its own limitations, it would seem quite a positive thing to have young people who have not yet truly been exposed to real life, start with a strong dose of abstract, "removed" discourse. As to the fact that there will be shocks later on - that is, as said before, inevitable.
Reb Yoel is indeed the perfect transistor to transmit the Torah of the Rebbe and Chabad in its purest terms, with the caveat that he is trying his best to do what no man can do: try to bridge here with there, in the style that the Rebbe does it. Once the ultimate fallacy of such effort (or expecting it to totally work) is recognized, Reb Yoel's idiosyncracies should bother one much less.
Concerned:
That was a VERY long post. My short response.
Reb Yoel's idiosyncracies don't bother me, but NOT for the reason you give. I'm not bothered because, precisely as Guravitzer writes, Reb Yoel is a nutty professor. NOT because, as you maintain, there's an untenable intellectual gulf between some conceptual higher and lower orders. That's bogus.
Plenty of mashpiim with a lot less bekius or intellectual depth in chasidus have been able to bridge da'as elyein and da'as tachtein or yechudo ilo'oh and yechudo tato'oh, or whatever you want to call it, and express the G-dly in tangible terms. Think of the farbrengens of Mendel Futerfass, for one. Manis Friedman, though he lacks emotional color, is a contemporary example of someone who does an excellent job applying haskoloh to real life.
The maskilim in chasidus who are actually savvy enough to really understand what politics are, tend to stay out of it. V'Da"L.
Chasidim ein mishpocho
Guravitzer,
You don't need to defend the askonim whose job it is to get involved in politics. You know what I meant and it didn't need any "tirutz" on your part.
Tzemach, please file under "Another mentalblog.com Movie Parody"
THE NUTTY PROFESSOR
(with apologies to Jerry Lewis and, lehavdil, Eddie Murphy)
Professor Julius Kelp (Yoel Kahn), is an unkempt, introverted, socially inept chasidus professor with a heavy lisp and dredlocks in his beard who discovers an obscure incantation in a rare and ancient kabbalastic manuscript that turns him into Buddy Love, an extremely smooth, obnoxious, metrosexual bochur with a picked-out beard, four-button suit, and six-inch wide, orange silk tie with a giant double-Windsor knot. This newfound persona gives him the confidence to pursue a cute sem-girl he meets at Nosh World, Stella Purdy. At first she despises Love, but she finds herself strangely attracted to him.
The formula wears off at inopportune times, often to Kelp's embarassment. He must rush back to the LaHa"K office in the hopes that no one (but Pinto and Chaim Shaul) will discover his secret.
Although Kelp knows that his alternate persona is an arrogant person, he cannot prevent himself from continually reciting the incantation as he enjoys the newfound attention that Love receives.
In the end his true identity is revealed during the Yarchei Kallah at Gan Yisroel - Parksville, as the Love persona transforms to Kelp during a speech. He admits that he has learned a valuable lesson, and Purdy admits that she likes Kelp better than Love and they get married.
LOL
Tony, that chasidim ein mishpochoh post was not me. It's the capitalist Guravitzer. And I agree with your post. Perhaps Yoel adopted politics or askanus as his child?
Boruch, you hit it on the head - "a mashpia", not the mashpia. It takes many mashpiim to make a man (or a Chossid), and Yoel is one of them. When you want to feel and understand Elokus BeTaharasa, without the blemishes and mayim rabim of this world, you turn to Yoel. You do not turn to him for hashpooh in Askanus.
That R. Yoel is an absent minded professor, the intelectual founder of today's meshichism, with shades of paganism and a cultish ideology (even in this article he advocates part of the theology and a major part in the shlichus the dissemination of the greatness and grandeur of the Rebbe everywhere) is not his fault; the question on Lubavitch is: Why is there is not ONE single sane voice of high caliber that does away with this meshichism (don't believe the Rebbe is Moshiach) and advocates what Jews and chassidim always preached and taught (the dissemination of it's teachings to the everyday life)? Why hasn't Lubavitch produced one single person who is learned and has the authority and capacity and courage to offer a bit of fresh air and fresh vision?
Tony, you and guravitzer made my point exactly. R' Mendel, Manis, Moshe Vishedsky, even R' Sholom, R' Pinye et al, are all shades of the second approach I listed. That's why each one has his own little magic to contribute; same as each one of us does in his own little way.
The problem with R. Yoel (not necessarily of his own making) is az m'hot fun em gemacht a getchke, and expected his reconciliation to be emes la'amisosei. As guravitzer quoted, these are all "a mashpiim", and if R' Yoel would be placed in that category, things would (will) be just fine.
והעיקר - אז דער רבי זאל שוין נתגלה ווערן, און מ'זאל זען אז אין עוד מלבדו.
concerned, those that indeed made him a getchke do suffer from certain problems, but fortunately they are few.
And why indeed are there no sane voices in Habad? I read the piece in Kfar Habad and saw clearly that Lubavitch is not G-D centered but rather Rebbe centered.Basically in my view R'Kahn is almost as bad as the Mesiannics (and actually he was the one that set this madness in motion before the Rebbe died)
He didn't set it in motion in the sense that he has no ability to lead anything. His classes and views were used to legitimize the madness.
Yoel was the one who interpreted or misinterpreted the Rebbes discourses to be referring to himself as the messiah.When a figure with such a long track record of closeness to the Rebbe speaks people listened (and, anyway, that's what they wanted to hear)
Lubavitch as we knew it is probably history.Ironic that a group that did much to regenerate Judaism is now fanning the flames of a post Judaism like cult.Sad.
No one listened to Yoel, sorry. None of the hundreds of families in CH who began chanting Yechi, and few of the bochurim who began signing people on petitions for the hisgalus of Melech HaMoshiach actually attended his classes. His ideas were used by people who rarely spoke a word with him.
Do you think his brother in law R. Butman was not influenced?
If it's not Yoel than I guess it's something in the water of Crown Heights that causes people to lose their minds
re getchke issues:
As was noted long ago on this blog, the core problem behind meshichism (the "yellow cockroach" type) is the concept of "no other authority". There is nobody in Lubavitch today, at all, who is in a position to tell anyone what to do or think.
Except that the blame for this, IMHO, lies not with the Messianic Jews/Hassidim, certainly not with the Rebbe ח"ו, but with a very different "branch" of Lubavitch, and goes way back. In the words of the Mishnah: על דאטפיך אטפוך, וסוף מטיפיך יטופון. Veda"l.
R. Yoel was clearly used by the mainstream meshichist at that time (no need to rewrite history). As a matter of fact, in the famous "coronation" the biggest chillul hashem that Batman made in lubavitch history he was one of the MAIN speakers. He gave credence to that ideology from the sources of the writings and sayings of the Rebbe and he gave some intelectual meat to the new religion. Had he not been a partner with them at that time there would more resistance by some people who would not have been villified by the gangsters who had the backing of "eved melech melech". That is also the reason they hate him so much for saying "toissi" because they did rely on his standing and words.
While he said "toissi" on some of the garbage he proposed those times, his touss is still here big time....
1. The man has no credibility on any issue that pertains to anything practical, nor has he any clue about real-life-related. Would you ever dream of asking him an eitzoh as you would from a kluge mashpia? (Don’t answer this).
2. He should be the very last person to point his accusing finger at the people that have simply taken his very extremist views and ran with them. Instead, he should be pointing at these nuts and proclaim, “Reu gedulim shegidalti!” In any normal place anyone that was so wrong on a major public policy issue, would be expected to stay out of policy-setting debates. Why not ba unz?
3. The substance of what he says in the interview is also very naive and childish. If you have people amongst you that are doing things that are 'worse than yevsektzia', what kind of crap is this about 'love them but not their shitteis'? How about 'purge the impurity from your machane' instead? How about an honest analysis of was has brought so many people to a state where they feel they have a license to explain with smug certainty the precise meaning of all of the Rebbe’s statements that seem to present any kind of difficulty or are not easily nitfos behavono vehasogo? What was it that empowered people to cast away any feeling of bittul or self-doubt when approaching the keidesh hokodoshim of the Rebbe’s Teiroh? What was it that has taken away people’s ability to live with contradictions without a compulsive and ugly need to have an ‘explanation’ for every difficulty?
4. Also, what is this weird talk that 'our job is leharbeis dem Rebben's koveid'? Really now? Who gave us this job? The Rebbe? Was it the same Rebbe that has started the aggressive messianic campaign of 1992-94? Or is this simply another 'brilliant' public campaign courtesy of Reb Yoel?
Sad, really. The world would be a much better place if people would stick to what they are good at. In case of Reb Yoel, another few volumes of seifer hoerchin chabad would be a much better contribution than all of his worthless opining over the last 57 years.
Tzemach, R. Butman had given the infamous interview proclaiming himself Rebbe shortly before all this. I don't think anything he did was with disinterest.
maxi, no one is rewriting history. We all agree he was used, we all need to agree he did not lead anything.
Guravitzer,
To what "infamous interview" do you refer? Please explain in detail.
Tony, he gave an interview in a local NY non Jewish paper (I can't remember which one) in which he essentially proclaimed himself the succesor to the Rebbe, and described various activities of his that would prove this stand. He managed to wriggle out of the aftermath of that one, although I don't know how. Perhaps everyone knew him well then and took it as just another one of his moves.
While he was shouting Yechi from the rooftops of CH, he would mention nary a word of it in Manhattan when raising funds. I am sure he did not get that shitoh from Reb Yoel.
I do not mind my comment appearing here. But I actually posted it on another blog and feel a bit uneasy that someone posted it here using my nick. Not cool, whoever you are.
oops..., this is something a reader of the other blog will do naturally... Figures.
in a good old days one can lift it off the Berl Yemi...
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