Did R. Barry Gourary ever explain why his grandfather decided to bring a back room person, i.e. Rabbi Hodakov, all the way from Riga, while people like Chatche were left behind?
Anonymous | 02.01.07 - 10:23 am | #

When Nazis offered to extract RAYATZ from Warsaw he offered them the following list of his closest to be saved with him:
Wife: Nechama Dinah
Mother: Shterna Sora
RASHAG, Chana Gourary, Barry
Sheina and Mendel Horenstein (who could not escape in the end because of Polish citizenship)
Chache Feigin, his wife two sons and three daughters.

This is how they end up in Riga
Tzemach Atlas | Homepage | 02.01.07 - 10:43 am | #

on Page 147 of Rigg's book, after all the delays with visas from Riga to Amercia and after RAYATZ was delayed again with his broken arm:

"The day Finland surrendered to Nazis RAYATZ took one of the last planes to Sockholm, Sweden. In the plane were RAYATZ, his wife and mother. RASHAG, Chana and Barry, Chaim Lieberman,Rebbes nurse Sheina Locs and three other lubavithcers (???). Chache Feigin with his family and few others schedeuled to leave did not make it out."

Was Hodakov on that plane?
Tzemach Atlas | Homepage | 02.01.07 - 10:55 am | #

this is mentality of sheker that I addressed
You start with “Rebbe relocated his headquarters”
And then “decided to bring”

If I saw that anonymous while he was asking the question I would bloody his nose immediately.
Tzemach Atlas | Homepage | 02.01.07 - 11:02 am | #

Remeber Hodakov was a big shot in Latvia, so one should not be surprised if he maneuvered himself out.

And there are literally decades to make a myth out of this.
Tzemach Atlas | Homepage | 02.01.07 - 11:09 am | #

That's exactly why many Russians (gezha) didn't hit it off that well with the Rebbe (in lashon hamaata). The Rebbe chose exactly who he wanted to carry out his plan of sharing Lubavitch with the rest of the world, to the delight of most and to the chagrin of many (including many readers of this blog) who want 'authentic' Lubavitch, like their grandfathers. The Rebbe forsaw the modern age and brought Chassidus to it. Some malcontents may critsize etc., they're entitled to their opinion veyehi lahem asher lahem!

Regarding Shneur's condesending disparaging remarks about some of the mazkirim: His makor 'R. BG (thanks for sparing us the pe'enu'ach ; ) ) has no idea how it was by the Rebbe and either does Shneur, obviously.

In the times of the Rayatz Rabbi Hodakov was running a network of schools etc. I will not get into well documented history here! See the documents in Toldos Chabad Be'artzos Habris. Rabbi Mindel authored (! not just edit) tens of works on Chassidus and history etc. Again, we're not going there (they BTW worked hand in hand with the Rebbe).
Ch. L. on the other hand would push the Rebbe (in the wheelchair) into the farbrengen and go back to his typing and not even listen to the maamar! Some may praise hiom for his dilligence but not for his chassidishkeit! veda"l
Umesayemim betoiv!
Tzfania | 02.01.07 - 11:59 am | #

I never understood this expression, Umesayemim betoiv!.

after 20 minutes of EF this and EF that , he's full of sh** and he's full of crap to top it all off ,Umesayemim betoiv!


With all my due respects to Umesayemim betoiv! fu** you. oh and by the way, Umesayemim betoiv!


It is well known the constant fights that went on in the Rebbes mazkirus, childish squabbles, maneuvering for more exposure etc. I believe the Rebbe even spoke about it at public farbrengens ad kedai kach.

Groner, doesn't seem to know which side he's on, he's still trying to figure where he will get the most free tickets around the world. Krinsky is di bavuzteh baal hagoloh not one inch more of character and Klein while he seems like a nice guy, he is still a Yerushalmi.

It's unbelievable how Chassidim of such "stature" can't see eye to eye for the sake of a larger than life cause. Isn't that what they themselves claim at their "farbrengens".

I think Tzemach, your whole issue with Chabad is the fact that you believed you would become part of some fraternity of love and family "ain mishpocho". Wake up and smell the coffee, get over it. Unfortunately Chabad today is a free for all. There is absolutely no cohesiveness in the overall corporation of Chabad, which unfortunately is the face of Chabad in the world. It's just like it is in the great big world out there. You have to decide on who YOU are and what YOU want from life and choose YOUR own click.

The Rebbe I am sure knows why he decided to leave us like orphans. Perhaps or maybe certainly to offer us more opportunity to merit credit for sticking to the path he has shown us. Unfortunately for the most part this world is still a world of concealment, including those who call themselves Chabad Chassidim

It's up to each individual to be who they think they should be, for the sake of G-d. That's if anyone is still thinking in these terms.
Umesayemim betoiv! | 02.01.07 - 12:43 pm | #

I just read Tzfania, again. A prick of biblical proportions.

To suggest that Russian Geza is a stiro to 'the rest of the world'. What a moron! I guess this would disqualify the Rebbe himself!
Tzemach Atlas | Homepage | 02.01.07 - 3:22 pm | #

schneur,
while not technicaly russian, hodakov did come from a chabad mishpoche
sto pratzent | 02.01.07 - 4:18 pm | #

I am assuming this conversation and the question is about the early years, not towards the end.

Most of the Russian Chasidim simply did not make it out, they were still behind the Iron curtain. Of those that did, many were entrusted with international positions: Binyomin Gorodetsky in Europe, Bentche Shemtov in England, Althous and others in Israel. Leibel Groner had been given to the Rebbe as a Meshares by the previous Rebbe, and aside there really weren't any Russian Chasidim in NY to take on these office and administrative responsibilities. They were sent as the first Shluchim - Raskin, Shemtov, Garelik, Lazaroff, among the other Polish and American.

Shmuel Levitin, although technically an employee of the Rashag in Tomchei Tmimim, was a very strong supporter of the Rebbe. In fact, many of the Russians were already employed in Tomchei Tmimim from before the war, and the Rebbe was careful to never remove anyone from a position the FR gave them or move someone from one mosad to another.

As the Russian Chasidim emerged from Russia, some were given positions of responsibility - Mendel Futerfas for example.

It think the issue arises after large groups of Russian Chasidim left Russia, and by the 80s were utterly overwhelmed by the Americans. But if we limit the discussion to the early years, it seems to be a combination of those already employed in other Mosdos and most being trapped in Russia.
guravitzer | 02.01.07 - 5:19 pm | #

UB

Bravo!
Umesayemim Betov! ; )
Tzfania | 02.02.07 - 2:19 am | #

Shneur
You forgot to mention two more mazkirim of the Rebbe Rayatz.
1) Reb Chonye Morosov HYD, who was one of the first Talmidim in Lubavitch, a huge baal mochin, etc...
2) when the Rebbe Rayatz spent time in Paris his son in law, the Rebbe, served as his secretary, there are plenty of letters around bearing his initials MEM SHIN, MAZKIR
Zuravitzer | 02.03.07 - 10:27 pm | #

Did RaSHaB have gaboyim? Who were they?
Tzemach Atlas | Homepage | 02.03.07 - 10:54 pm | #

Reb Chonye was also a Mazkir by the Rebbe Rashab
Zuravitzer | 02.04.07 - 8:09 am | #

A few comments.
1. What sort of school system to Hodakov run in Latvia ? It was something very akin to YU today !
Yes rabbi H was what the Rayatz called Chaside hanusach and chaside hageza but not Chasid Chabad. (I can relate to that personally as I am hardly a hasid chabad myself.)
As far aRussians , firstly my point is that the rebbe did not want them in his daled amos , perhaps in Paris and in the tiny she be tiny Chabad operation in the UK but not in 770.
By 1950 there were Russian Anash in the Us including some who came here via Palestine or arrived in the Us in the pre War period.
Mazkirim, yes the Ramash served as such for brief periods, but if we mention him as a mazkir should we not include the Yehoshua Bin NUN of the Rayaatz who for close to 30 years hardly left his side .... one by the name of Shmaryahu Gourary .
Finally with all respect to Reb Hodakovs ,in Latvia he was strictly the technical administrator of the Tora Im derech Eretz school system a system bitterly bitterly blasted by the Rayaatz in many sichos while in latvia !!!
The policy people weere Mordechai Dubin, the 2 Wittenbergs, Rav Yoel Baranchik and achron achron chaviv the Riga Chief rabbi Rav M. Zaks.
Finally no one has explained why the rebbe did not have any bar hochis in his daled Amos ?
schneur | 02.05.07 - 10:16 am | #

Tzfania. When the rebbe became ill, we all were suddenly given a very public window of how things were with the Rebbe. And it was not very pretty, was it ? Bere Gourary certainly knew how things were with his grandfather and he never claimed more.
In one of our last conversations I asked the Rachal about an inyan in Avoda , and he said in Yiddish why ask me ask those who are durchkevaykt in Chassiduth the ziknei anash like YK and LG....So he certainly respected the mazkiruth ...
Finally I am not criticizing the private people called YK and LG , but as PUBLIC figures(claiming leadership roles) they like anyone else are open to examination.
schneur | 02.05.07 - 10:23 am | #

what is 'bar hochis'?

Schneur was it Rav Mordechai Zack? If yes I think his kever is here in Boston. I have seen it on Baker St. Cemetery.
Tzemach Atlas | Homepage | 02.05.07 - 10:35 am | #

A can do person very capable.
rabbi zaks was the chief rav of the Jewish community in Riga. He was not lubavitch. he was a leading rabbinic figure active in the World Aguda.
schneur | 02.05.07 - 11:07 am | #

so what is what is 'bar hochis'?
and was he Rav Mordechai Zacks?
Tzemach Atlas | Homepage | 02.05.07 - 11:38 am | #

Schneur, please list names.
guravitzer | 02.05.07 - 12:05 pm | #

Someone like Zalman Posener late of Nashville Shlit'a would have made an interesting addition to the mazkiruth.He knew English was capable etc. There were also any number of older Anash whose addition to the Mazkiruth wuld have added luster to that body people like Rabbis Kazarnovsky,etc.
My point is that the rebbe wanted novices about him who really did not know the Torah sheball peh of Chabad , Lubavitch and Tomche Tmimmim. Tha way he would be in total and complete control.
Were Hodakovs , Mindel Tmimmim ? Was Krinsky a "kenner of Chabad . Was Klein a major league Chabad askan ?. Even people like the Kraner family were excluded from leadership in the post 1950 Lubavitch. As were other Schneersohn members like rabbis Schneur Zalman and Sholm Ber Schneersohn. Someone like Eli Chaim Carlebach was encouraged to walk .
Schneur | 02.05.07 - 3:01 pm | #

I was told once by someone in CH that ‘the Rebbe had to wait 20 years till all the Russians died out’ (this is an exact quote) so he can implement his vision. Now that the vision is implemented the inquiring minds what to know at what price? There were also attempts on this blog to persuade us that the Rebbes hands off approach was to allow entrepreneurial freedom, despite the horrible neglect an incompetents of people who operated under his franchise name. Indeed the premise of deliberate neglect might be argued about far-flung Shluchim. But once can not say that this deliberate neglect theory is applicable to his closest commanders left in charge of the enterprise.
Tzemach Atlas | Homepage | 02.05.07 - 3:40 pm | #

Schneur, let me ask again (3rd time)
so what is what is 'bar hochis'?
and was he Rav Mordechai Zacks?
Tzemach Atlas | Homepage | 02.05.07 - 3:44 pm | #

What about Simpson?
Zalmen | 02.05.07 - 6:38 pm | #

so what is 'bar hochis'?Tzemach Atlas | Homepage | 02.05.07 - 11:38 am | #


A can do person very capable.
schneur | 02.05.07 - 11:07 am | #
Boruch | 02.05.07 - 6:47 pm | #

Since when did maskirus become more important than Askanus? The Rebbe sent those most able into the field, where he saw the greatest lack. This was a staple of every year of the Rebbe's Nesius. Your question would be who was a Russian Chossid who was given no position of responsibility at all, Mazkirus or otherwise. Rabbi's Posner and Kazarnovsky were given positions of tremendous responsibility.
guravitzer | 02.05.07 - 8:49 pm | #

A comment by Tzemach Atlas about the people that the Rebbe Rayatz tried to save out of Russia is not accurate. R' Chatche Feigin had only one son.
a relative of R'Chatche | 02.07.07 - 5:50 pm | #

a relative of R'Chatche, thank you for your input. I quoted from the Riggs book verbatim but the Photo in Lubavitch V'Hayaleho' shows R'Chatche with the family, one son HYD.
Tzemach Atlas | Homepage | 02.07.07 - 6:02 pm | #

I am probably asking something that was documented a 100 times already here but how did the Rayatz get out of Warsaw and what is the story of the Nazi officer? and Finland? and Stockholm...
kushen t | 02.08.07 - 12:19 am | #

You can read it in Rescued from the Reich by Riggs and the documents in Out of the Inferno through kehotonline.com.
guravitzer | 02.08.07 - 2:24 am | #

What is Riggs doing now?
Yehuda | 02.11.07 - 12:12 am | #

Last I heard they were going to be a movie perhaps. He is also teaching history. Beyond that I do not know.
Tzemach Atlas | Homepage | 02.11.07 - 12:14 am | #

I question the accuracy of his account of the rescue of the Rayatz. There is a contradiction between the beginning of the book where the Germans kick in the door to Rayatz's hiding place with the middle of the book, where they knock on the door.
Yehuda | 02.11.07 - 12:28 am | #

Yehuda, he provides the sources, you can (and should) go and prove or disprove every details if you wish by revisiting the sources. The broad strokes are believable.

To simply question the book publicly, without doing it professionally, is just a smear job. Which is usually my job :-).
guravitzer | 02.11.07 - 2:58 am | #

I agree that you do a good smear job. You responded without apparently having read my comment.

How are sources going to resolve the contradiction I mentioned? Did the Germans kick in the door, or did they knock on the door?
Yehuda | 02.12.07 - 2:55 pm | #

maybe they knocked with their feet
oz | 02.12.07 - 7:43 pm | #

silly man, this Yehuda. My precise point is that one contradiction is not an indictment of a book, it is not Torah MiSinai.
guravitzer | 02.12.07 - 9:41 pm | #

guravitzer,

I think that it is an indictment of the book. This is not a minor detail, like the size of the brim of the Rebbe's hat. The Germans entering the apartment of the Rayatz is a major scene, full of tension. How can he have two different version in the book? It leads one to suspect that there is some fiction in the book.
Yehuda | 02.13.07 - 10:51 pm | #