mentalblog.com comments:
It saddens me that you feel this way.
BTW, how do you define freedom?
freedom is a feeling, you don't define it, you live it.
And what holds you back from this feeling?
the way we feel is a complex mystery, like a weather. But we know how we feel always.
Freedom is a frame of mind - I am trying to understand why you find the seder to run counter to your concept of freedom.
You speak of distant relatives, but the seder isn't about the past, it's about the here and now. The seder is about transmitting the mesora of Klal Yisroel that connects us back to our roots and carries them on to the future.
Infinite patience with G-d? No personal redemption? I reject the entire premise.
Now, if we were speaking of G-d’s infinite patience with us, I would be able to relate – but if someone seeks a stronger relationship with G-d, he needs to devote his energy to that goal. He would need to build a relationship with his soul.
Sorta reminds me of a certain fellow I knew that sat in the back row of a shul where I used to daven; he would often tell me that it’s unfair that he never became a rov – it’s just that he didn’t want to do the learning part…
Presumptuous, annoying little bullshit
LOL
Sorry that I couldn't help. But those were the exact sentiments I had when I read your post here today.
:-)
muteness of God is inclusive to inability to communicate with people who claim his side.
Inability? Rather, His decision not to.
The human mind is a great tool, but it goes where you take it. You'll take it where you want it to go. So, although I am saddened by your struggle, I know that you know all the answers already - as such, I'll quit while I'm behind.
The seder is about transmitting the mesora of Klal Yisroel that connects us back to our roots and carries them on to the future.
i didn't know you are that stupid...
Well, as they say: "Now you know."
From Rav Kook:
==============
Who is Free?
The main theme of the Passover holiday is, undoubtedly, freedom. But we must understand what this freedom is all about. Does it refer simply to the end of Egyptian slavery? Is it only political freedom - a luxury which has eluded the Jewish people for most of their 4,000 year existence?
True to Our Inner Essence
The difference between a slave and a free person is not merely a matter of social position. We can find an enlightened slave whose spirit is free, and a free man with the mentality of a slave.
True freedom is that uplifted spirit by which the individual - as well as the nation as a whole - is inspired to remain faithful to his inner essence, to the spiritual attribute of the Divine image within him. It is that quality which enables us to feel that our life has value and meaning.
A person with a slave mentality lives his life and harbors emotions that are rooted, not in his own essential spiritual nature, but in that which is attractive and good in the eyes of others. In this way, he is ruled by others, whether physically or by social conventions.
Vanquished in exile, we were oppressed for hundreds of years by cruel masters. But our inner soul is imbued with the spirit of freedom. Were it not for the wondrous gift of the Torah, bestowed upon us when we left Egypt to eternal freedom, the long exile would have reduced our spirits to the mindset of a slave. But on the festival of freedom, we openly demonstrate that we feel ourselves to be free in our very essence. Our lofty yearnings for that which is good and holy are a genuine reflection of our essential nature.
[adapted from Ma'amerei HaRe'iyah, Celebration of the Soul, pp. 141-143]
i meant insensitive.
Insensitive? I am merely sharing what I think, but I certainly don’t think there was any insensitivity there.
Perhaps you misunderstood the word future and you impact on it?
You write of a royal "we", personally the Seder is a time of tremendous freedom. Celebrate your Seder as you wish, perform the chumros and kulos that you wish, ignore the books and guides, let the Seder run as short or as long as you wish, get good and smashed on some heavy wine or sip your grape juice, invite who you wish of your enemies, your friends and your family. It's time to drop all limitations, if at least for one night.
Tzemach,
With respect to the silence of the Creator, the purpose of prayer is not to operate a transmitter, but to learn how to tune the receiver.
With respect to guravitzer's note, I am reminded of a story about the Berditchever Rav, after completing what he thought was his most perfect Seder, with all the kavannos and yichudim of the Arizal.
To continue with a quote:
It is told that on the Seder night Rav Levi Yitzhak reached great heights of enthusiasm and appeared to be in "seventh heaven," when the Heavens revealed to him: "Do not be boastful; the Seder of Haim the porter is grander than your Seder!"
At that point, Hassidim who had already finished their Seder had come to the Rebbe's house to hear and see the Seder of the great Tzaddik. Rav Levi Yitzhak turned to them: "Do you know Reb Haim the porter?"
The Hassidim scattered throughout the streets of Berditchev looking for him, until they discovered where he lived. They knocked on the door for him to open up. A woman came out and said, "What do you need my husband for? He's drunk and asleep in bed." The Hassidim, of course, ignored her words, woke her husband up from his sleep and carried him on their shoulders until they reached the Tzaddik's home. The Tzaddik ordered them to seat the porter by his side, and turned to him with questions: "Dear Reb Haim, what inspirational thoughts did you have during the Seder?"
The porter fixed his bleary eyes on him, nodded his head and said: "I'll tell the Rav the truth. I heard that it was forbidden to drink alcoholic beverages for eight straight days, so this morning I drank a right proper amount that would last me for all eight days. I got so tired that I fell asleep. When night came, my wife woke me from my sleep and said, 'Why aren't you getting ready for the Seder tonight, just like all other Jews?' I answered her, 'What do you what from me? I'm just an ignoramus, son of ignoramuses. But see, I know this, our forefathers were captured by the Gypsies [he got 'Gypsies' and 'Egyptians' confused. Since he knew about Gypsies personally, he mixed them up with the ancient Egyptians.] We have a mighty God who led us out of there to freedom, and now we are again captives, and I know and will tell you, God will lead us to freedom again.' Afterwards I saw that the table was set with Matzot, wine and eggs. I ate and drank and gave my wife to eat and drink. After that I was overcome with joy and raised my cup to the Heavens and said, 'Look, my God, at the cup that I am drinking, to Your health! L'haim to You, God! Hear us and redeem us.' And then I went back to sleep."
http://www.pardes.org.il/online_...days/
pesach.php
cute story.
Gandalin, the point of this story is that spontaneity and personal sincerity counts. Precisely what is missing in the “seder”.
no one can provide spontaneity and sincerity to the seder besides yourself. how can you order someone to be spontaneous?? the seder is a context in which we can express our personal feelings.
great, everyone got a ready tirutz...
pathetic
Is it a terutz, or their personal experience?
it is a cliche answer, nothing personal about it.
Sein Blick ist vom Vorübergehn der Stäbe
so müd geworden, dass er nichts mehr hält.
Ihm ist, als ob es tausend Stäbe gäbe
und hinter tausend Stäben keine Welt.
tochas, translate the rilke.
Tzemach,
Of course the story has many levels, and your interpretation regarding spontaneity and personal sincerity is correct. However, on another level, the story shows that within the limits of his knowledge and experience, the Porter experienced his seder fully and arrived at the core of what the seder is teaching us to feel, and of course he felt that. We were slaves! We were freed! By HaShem! He will free us again! So let us celebrate! And in the midst of celebration let us praise HaShem and beseech him to redeem us. If you get that across, and if you feel that truly and sincerely in your deepest self, then your seder will be as wonderful as the Porter's.
TA,
It's hard to find a good translation. This is ok.
The Panther
in the "Jardin des Plantes" in Paris
Passing back and forth the bars his gaze is grown so weary that it doesn't grasp anything any more. To him it's as if there were a thousand bars and behind the thousand bars, no world.
The supple gait of easy, strong steps, turning round in the narrowest circle, is like a dance of power around a center where a great will stands stolid.
Just once in a while the curtain of the pupils lifts silently--. Then an image enters and passes through the tense stillness of the limbs--and fades when it reaches the heart.
Actually I only quoted the first paragraph in the original. It a beautiful expression of the desperation and hopelessness someone suffers who yearns and is supposed to be naturally free. You may disregard my words here, the poem needs no explanation
tochas, unlike the post the poem is about literal slavery of a zoo animal.
TA, a poem is not literal. The literal details of locking up an animal is for the zoologist, an artist uses it as an expression for something inexpressible. Here is a link to some better translations: http://picture-poems.com/rilke/p...e/
panther1.html
It's like all good poems - or perhaps any text or feeling - impossible to translate.
If the people sitting around the table don't care about each other -- if they are together because that is the way it's supposed be rather than that they enjoy each other's company, then there is no life to the ritual. The participants have turned themselves into slaves. It's not the fault of the Seder. It's the fault of the people.
Tzemach, I hope you have not become an atheist.
Here is another poem.
Tyger! Tyger! burning bright
In the forests of the night,
What immortal hand or eye
Could frame thy fearful symmetry?
In what distant deeps or skies
Burnt the fire of your eyes?
On what wings dare he aspire?
What the hand dare sieze the fire?
And what shoulder, & what art,
Could twist the sinews of thy heart?
And when thy heart began to beat,
What dread hand? & what dread feet?
What the hammer? what the chain?
In what furnace was thy brain?
What the anvil? what dread grasp
Dare its deadly terrors clasp?
When the stars threw down their spears,
And water'd heaven with their tears,
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the Lamb make thee?
Tyger! Tyger! burning bright
In the forests of the night,
What immortal hand or eye,
Dare frame they fearful symmetry?
William Blake (1793-94)
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