mentalblog.com comments:
Tzemach,
I think you're right about that, but it's part of a bigger problem, which is that Haredi Yiddishkeit at least is a completely monastic way of life. When Rav Schach ZTL said that students should not learn even a scrap of anything practical, but devote their entire lives --every waking moment-- to Torah lishma, he advocated for an economically impossible way of life, in which Jews he felt worthy of the name would inevitably be parasites on other Jews or CVS on non-Jews. In many cultures, monasticism is an outlet for those in society who are drawn to it, but in at least some of those cultures, there are legitimized ways of life open to those who don't have it in them to become monks. (Don't let the fact that Jews marry and raise families confuse you from the fact that the yeshivish life is a monastic life.)
Gandalin: This is an old machlokes in the Gemara in Berachos between R' Yishmael and R' Shimon ben Yochai. The Gemara concludes that "harbei asu k'R. Yishamel v'alsa b'yadam; k'R. Shimon ben Yochai v'lo alsu b'yadam. Both traditions - i.e. Torah im derech eretz and kulo Torah lishmo - have deep roots in yahadus, and both are legitimate paths in avodas Hashem.
Kishke,
Well I guess Rav Schach didn't rely on that conclusion.
At any rate, I should have also mentioned the entire exclusion of women from the monastic klal that the haredi world envisions as the Jewish community.
Although, the fact that Jewish monks were also baalei baysim does mean that my complaint that their monastic lifestyle made them parasites on other Jews or CVS on non-Jews should be somewhat altered; in a number of cases, the monks are parasites on their wives, the eishes chayil who is expected to support them while they learn and davven.
Part of the problem is that the monastic life of study and prayer was not in the past considered feasible let alone obligatory for the majority of Yidden, but only for those rich enough or smart enough to make it. Nowadays, every frum bochur is expected to learn like an ilui, or count himself a failure.
That isn't going to cut it.
Or you could argue that Jewish life as a whole was monastic in the sense Gandalin describes until the material benefits of the Industrial Revolution reached the Jewish population. In essence, we were bombarded on two fronts: Renaissance, and Industrial Revolution. The Renaissance was addressed by everyone in some way: By adding Mussar, Chumra, Chassidus, Torah UMada. The Industrial was only addressed by YU and Chabad, how to combine a material world with furtherance of Yiddishkeit. The retreat to the Kollel didn't address this in any way, and thus allowed materialism to creep in, and create keeping up with the Yonas communities, in which Kollel yungerleit cannot compete.
guravitzer,
Was Jewish life always monastic? Before the churban, wasn't Jewish life wholistic? Don't we have evidence in Torah and Gemara of all sorts of complex activities in Jewish life, particularly in agriculture?
Perhaps monasticism in Jewish life began when the Resh Galuta in Bavel decreed mandatory and universal male education and literacy, enabling the masses to escape the farm and adopt more sedentary lifeways.
The idea of characterizing the development of Mussar and Chassidus as a response to the Renaissance is interesting.
On the other hand, I absolutely dispute the idea that Jews were unaware of the physical, material world until the industrial revolution. Unless I misunderstand what you mean by "materialism."
I take it that you wouldn't accept the Reform movement or the Jewish Renewal movement a la Reb Zalman Schachter as responses to the industrial revolution?
I meant forced monasticism, due to the restrictions placed on them. They may have been aware of the outside world, but it was only atainable through outright shmad. By materialism I mean when the ghetto walls came down and they need not convert to enjoy the world. Materialism was to them like Gan Eden - theoretically obtainable, practically impossible.
Haskalah was an outgrowth of the Renaissance (the culture outside of Judaim finally having something of value to give the learned Jew), and Reform is an outgrowth of Haskalah, so that answers 2 questions.
guravitzer,
So you think the Haskalah is more the outgrowth of the Renaissance, which preceded it by 300 years, rather than the Enlightenment, with which it was nearly contemporaneous? An interesting perspective. Other than the music of Salamone Rossi, I had not thought that the Renaissance had much impact on Jewish life or thought. I had thought that the movement of ideas was more the other way, e.g. Pico della Mirandola, etc.
Reform is certainly part of the Haskalah. But according to hints that Gershom Scholem scattered in his writings, without so far as I know every completely elaborating on them, Reform was also a manifestation of the Sabbatian movement, at least in so far as its antinomianism is concerned, and possibly in terms of the actual personalities who developed it. That is, Scholem asserts that (some) (many) Reform leaders came from Sabbatian lineages (families).
But to return to my questions, was authentic Jewish life monastic before there were "restrictions placed upon them?" Or is the monasticism of Jewish religious life (in the orthodox communities) a manifestation of a response to outside forces (ghettoization, marginalization, ideological oppression and suppression)? What would traditional Jewish life have looked like in an atmosphere of freedom?
To your questions, the latter is correct. Traditional Jewish life burst with technological and scientific advance in peaceful times in Eretz Yisroel, Bavel and Sfarad/Mizrach.
Good point on Enlightenment vs Renaissance. I wasn't getting to specifics, I was just contrasting the fact that it was an outgrowth, rather than a response (such as Chasidus and Mussar).
To claim that Reform was an ideological outgrowth of ST is astounding to me. Is there any online paper or article you can direct me to? I can see making a casual connection, but they were very clear that they were dropping rituals to be closer to Xtianity, not to ST or Judaism.
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