mentalblog.com comments:
Simcha Coffer (is that a real name?) tells (there) this story about Reb Itche Masmid:
"I would like to append a story to this email. R' Aryeh Carmel relates that R' Itchele (Yitzchok) Masmid was one of the "mofsim" of Chabad. He was a chasid of the Rashab (three Rebbe's ago incl. RMMS) and apparently, he knew everything! He once had occasion to visit London and stayed by Rav Dessler for several weeks. During that time, these two gedolim traversed the pathways of pinimius haTorah such that Rav Dessler reported that these several weeks were the most enriched of his life. But here's the kicker. R' Itchele was so enamoured with Rav Dessler's tefisa in penimius haTorah that his (Rav Dessler's) Rebbetzin reported that for the entire time that R' Itchele stayed with them, she didn't have to make his bed. He simply didn't sleep due to his excitement over Rav Dessler."
Ironically I heard exactly the same story about the unmade bed of Itche Masmid on his visit to Boston. I heard this story from Pinya Krinsky and this naturally disqualifies the story as the illustration of Rav Dessler gadlus.
Tzemach
Thanks for the link.
Where are all the Lubab when you need them to discuss real meat and potato issues of basic Chasidic doctrine.
When you had the post about what kind of soul a convert had (iirc)they were knocking each other over to show their ignorance in 'ganz Tanyah'
I have always considered the Tanyah to be a precious jewel locked up in a vault of shallow Lubab understanding, and keeping it away from true seekers.
Lets redeem real chassidus from Lubavitch and leave them with their pseudo chasidic talk and tales
I tried posting on this yesterday but cyberspace lost it. You mean we should replace Chasidic talk and tales with pseudo posters dribs and drabs?
What I find interesting is that this story becomes about the greatness of this or the other, as opposed to being about the love of Torah shown by two great men. Similar to the highjacking of Rabbi Soloveitchik visiting his old friend's farbrengen.
'Rabbi Soloveichik visiting his old friend'
If you knew anything about Rabbi Soloveichik you'd know that he was no 'friend'.Lubavitch with its cult personality were not quite his cup of tea, to say the least
He went to only one farbrengen and made a shiva call.This is the totality of the 'friendship'
yitz, I was just at Rabbi Soloveichik kever an hour ago, with bunch of Lubavitchers I might add. You fail to mention that after his visit to the farbrengen Soloveitchink started a regular shir in Tanya in Boston. Kazhdan told me.
Seeker,
You've got a lot of growing up to do.
Edited By Siteowner
TA, please don't selectively edit my comment. The reisha is meaningless without the seifa. Either leave it all or cut it all. I assure you no offense will be taken.
Tzemach
I've followed you blog long enough to know that you don't buy into myths and have done quite a lot to burst many Lubavitch myth-bubbles.You know Lubavitch from the inside having learned there so you must've picked up, already there, that they are masters of 'hagiography' and most of their stories and history is self serving.This love affair between Lubavitch and R'Soloveichik is a myth propogated by Lubavitch so they can add him to their book of admirers and 'chasidim' of the Rebbe.Obviously by being seen at his tomb they further propogate this myth and look good.
About the shiur Tanya:I can just tell you that Rav Ruderman, no fan of Lubavitch at all, would take a pocket edition of Tanya with him when he travelled, told to me by his grandson.
Might I add -
Firstly: Those who raise the point that RYBS only came once to the Rebbe -- I've heard said (and this applies in many other situations as well), that one time is enough to make a statement. (Similar to RYK and RMF posted earlier here).
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In addition, there's a whole background to the 10 Shvat 5740 farbrengen, which was later recounted to R' Avrohom Shemtov. On this basis, it can be more appreciated.
One point he said was (quoting from RAS. I personally heard):
At the farbrengen celebrating the Lubavitcher Rebbe's 80th birthday, Rabbi Solveitchik attended for over an hour, though originally he intended just to come in and wish Mazal Tov, as he had other appointments the same evening. His driver, his student, was surprised that his teacher overstayed his intended time. After all, his teacher was punctual and meticulous with time. What made his overstay?
Rabbi Solveitchik explained using the background of Moshe's 2 sets of 40 days on Mount Sinai in Parshas Ki Sisa. The first time Moshe came down from Mt Sinai he was like a Rosh Yeshiva, scholarly and knowledgeable, having studied all of Torah with the best possible teacher of all. But then he spent the next 40 days on the mountain pleading with G-d on behalf of the Jewish people. He advocated on behalf of sinners and sought the welfare of the Jewish people. Then he came down as a Rebbe.
I knew the Rebbe in Berlin, explained Rabbi Solveitchik. We were both studying there and I knew the Rebbe to be learned and scholarly. Then he was like Moshe's first descent - as a Rosh Yeshiva. This time I heard him speak in defense of the Jewish People, advocating on their behalf and seeking their welfare. This time the Rebbe, like Moshe, changed. Now he was a Rebbe, and I had to stay on to witness this.
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(There were other points, which I don't recollect as of now. When I find them, I'll be sure to post).
[This in addition to other points, as Rabbi Genack and other talmidim of his, told over in the recent "The Early Years" video documentary series on the Rebbe, by JEM].
The 'whole backround' was that R'Soloveichik owed Lubavitch a favour for helping him get some manuscripts of his grandfather out of Russia.He never came back for this 'amazing' experience.
There is a bit more to the 'backround'
Rabbi Soloveichik and Lubavitch shared a similar experience of being given a bit of the cold shoulder by the black hat yeshiva world and with Lubavitch aggressively courting supporters and admirers Rabbi Soloveichik was seen as a great target.World acclaimed, known as The Rav in the Modern Orthodox world, it was very important for the Rebbe to have him come over for a farbrengen as this would make Lubavitch much more acceptable in Y.U. circles.
yitz, you are only proving my point further. It's just a story, and event in history, it happened. You may even be demeaning the Rav by the intentions you give him for visiting. Leaves the parshanus to Parshandasa.
He went to only one farbrengen and made a shiva call.This is the totality of the 'friendship'
yitz
I suppose that is why he later sent a handwritten note to the Rebbe with the greatest respect and titles including "tzadik yessod olam"...
That note is readily available!
Yitz,
Please explain why it is important to know that Rav Soloveichik did not admire the Rebbe?
I can't figure this out. I am talking about feelings and they talk about Soloveitcheik. Let me tell you that he was by far worse than Reb Nissan. I heard some stories here in Boston. Harsh and abusive to his students to the extreme. But anyhow we are not talking about him. This is about feelings and lack thereof in Chabad. Feelings k'pshuto!!!
I agree, and apologize for bringing him up, but it illustrates the point. Instead of his visit being about the feelings between two friends, it becomes about official recognition. Instead of the other story being about love of Torah and the connection that forged between the two, it becomes something else.
the conversation is terrible.
who was R' Nisan? i mean what was his forte besides producing Hirshel Rabiski and what is his legacy?
I heard from Reb Yeiseif Motchkin a"h that when he came out of Russia and had the chance to see Reb Nissan (after ~20 years of separation), Reb Nissan, with tears in his eyes, told him that there was not a single day in all those years he did not think about Yeiseif and Mulya Motchkin...
hey, i need more than that. is there a specific norm or behavior associated with R' Nisan's teachings?
hey, my comment was not an answer to you - I only saw your question after I posted my own comment. Legufei shel yinyan - I am no expert on Reb Nissan. In fact, I don't even remember seeing him alive (I did go to his levayoh in Yerushalaim). His is legendary for stressing extreme iskafyoh (unlike Shleimo Chaim who stressed aveidas hatefiloh).
thank you, just trying to catch up on very basics of shimushoh shel teiras hachasidus.
there you go again...
i don't think any of his talmidim will volunteer a comment, they are scared and traumatized for life.
no, i don't go there... i just can't follow this conversation very well without this info. and i assume that everybody else knows.
truth is this is not about Reb Nissan. This is about people I know personally who can't feel. May be because of Nissan or may be because of the parents, 770, whatever. The main thing is that they are numb from neck down and I ask why?
Tzemach, i know this sounds stupid, i have to ask this. i'm probably numb from neck up, but what exactly do you mean by inability to feel? empathy for another?
Good question, Faruq. Let's say you meet a person and everything you say that person turns into a story about himself.
You have a feeling in your gut, that there is no connection. You get tired after being with this person, it drains your energy.
The person lack the ability for emphaty. He is not listening or perhaps not feeling you at all. You feel like an inanimate object next to that person. But mostly it is the visceral feeling of complete disconnect and mental barriers.
TA,
I would respectfully differ from your position regarding the Rebbe:
While I would agree that the mashpiim have brought a message of unrelatedness towards fellows and towards anything other than "bittul kpshutoy" at best and "bittul hazulas" at worse (regarding farbrenegens proper venues to legitimize these experiences,
the Rebbe at least in the very early years was quite close the people and to bochurim. Many people will tell you that they were especially enthraled by the sense of closeness (and care and empathy) that the Rebbe expressed to many of these bochurim. They will tell you about the yechidus they experienced in those years and how the Rebbe cared for the details of the lives of these individuals.
When Lubavitch grew by leaps and bounds these closeness gave place to other facts of life where it becomes harder to keep touch with these inidivuals in the same mannre that was done years before. Until a time comes and yechidus is closed off completely. Then Dollars took place of that special encounter.
Yet, even in those years, many and many would tell you that they did sense the Rebbe's one second encounter and other forms of communication was a encounter where they felt the Rebbe caring and relating to the minute needs of the individuals.
I know your experience (the way you retell) does not reflect the aforementioned description but you can look up the videos on the dollars and you might see how the Rebbe literally touched upon the human dimension in the most simple and at the same time the most intimate and warm relationship with the individuals he encountered.
While in the late years the rise on the instituions and buildings have erupted; they nevertheless did not erase completely the numerous chassidim who in their simple and modest lives epitomized the Rebbe's teachings and most importantly the warm and relatedness that he required from the chassidim. Rabbi Levitansky a"h grew up in that enviroment (though he was special) and so many others.
It is interesting to note: thatin the the 70's and 80s the Rebbe spoke of the need of private and numerous mashpiim and asseh lecho rav. It is precisely the need to realte and to care and empthize with the particular individual and his life and needs that was in the back and the heart of the Rebbe's mind and heart.
this is so tired not even worth reading. Fuck the theory. I am talking about personal experience. People around me. Aloof Rebbe that I saw. The impersonal shit of retched dollars.
dovie, you are a moron.
Your complaint is as old as history.The struggle against the existential isolation of one man with his fellow, community, society etc., is nothing more than the current iteration of the human condition and the seemingly inviolable laws of nature. Religion, metaphysics, philosophy and psychology when uncorrupted all offer solutions but fundamentally the cure lies in the individual.
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