mentalblog.com comments:
So much for "leaving Lubavitch out of the picture"...
Outside the US - examples that come to mind are Melbourne and Paris.
Pittsburgh, Los Angeles, Miami, Toronto, Detroit, Montreal
London?
Jo'burg, Manchester
US: Phoenix,AZ New Haven,CT Coral Springs,FL Atlanta,GA Vegas,NV Houston,TX Milwaukee,WI....
Intl: Caracas, Argentina, Vienna, Brazil, Ottawa, Montreal, Toronto, Budapest, Italy, Antwerpen, Johannesburg, Cape Town, Paris,....
The above are some cities and countries that I have seen the success and vibrance of lubavitch along with the local Jewish communities. Some of these communities differed from others... but again these are just some of the places that i have encounterd what I describe. I've been to many other cities and countires where the only Jewish presnce was Chabad and other places where lubavitch could be more acive. but these are places where I ahve seen somewhat of what you ask about.
Phoenix is a very week Orthodox community so are most of the others are your list e.g you've go to be kidding if you consider Las Vegas a 'strong Orthodox community'! In fact you are proving the point Vegas has been very good for Lubavitch with three centers while there is one Young Israel.I.e Chabad is three times as strong as your mainstream Orthodox shul.Is this the norm, is
Lubavitch 75% of Orthodoxy or more like 5%??Chabad is very good in a vacuum.
In Antwerp, for example a very strong Orthodox community exists and Lubavitch is a negligible force there.
In New York City where Lubavitch has it's heaquarters their influence percentage wise is the weakest.Same thing in Israel in places such as Yerushalayim and Bnei Brak i.e wherever the local community is strong Chabads influence is small.
My feeling is that the reason is that where there is an alternative they don't do well.What do others think?
I think the comment about Melbourne is off the mark. Chabad were responsible for building much of Melbourne even though others might not be so kind in proffering that view. There is a Mizrachi in Melbourne who are vibrant. They would have been ten times more vibrant if their best and finest didn't go on Aliyah. The Chareidi shule here is brimming and growing, and there has been a Lakewood Kollel for over a decade. There are very few strong non Chabad/Mizrachi/Chareidi shules/communities though, largely because the frumer elements of those communities gravitated to one of the other 3. There isn't really a MO Young Israel type shule with a more intellectual bent outside of the Mizrachi but that's largely because no Musmachim of such institutions were ever here long enough to make a difference. Chabad, on the other hand are on a mission, and always have been. I don't think the mission has ever been to weaken others, except when perhaps there were early issues with Lakewood.
Toronto has a vibrant, growing and impressive Lubavitch community, as well as a very large Litvish Chasidish Sefardy community too.
Yanki, New Haven hardly has an Orthodox community left besides Lubavitch which "flourishes" not in response to BT or outreach work, or local growth but due to the largesse of the Deitsch faily who have lived there since 1956.Basically its the multi generational members of that extended family who provide the manpower and financial resources for that community.
The local Lubavitcher day school has in the 0ver 50 years of its existence presdied over the complete disintegration of the local orthodox community, to the point that the chief bastions of traditional Judaism (Kashruth, Shabbath, Jewish identity)there are a traditinoal Conservative Synagogue (BEKI) and the Slifka Center, the Yale Jewish student Center presided over by a wonderful reform rabbi James Ponet ,with an Orthodox rabbi serving the small orthodox student contingent.
Getting slightly off-topic, but my view differs slightly from that of Isaac B. who wrote:
"Chabad were responsible for building much of Melbourne even though others might not be so kind in proffering that view."
Chabad did much to make Melbourne what it is today, but there were other factors. One is the attitude of the predominantly Poilish composition of the community and their generosity and dedication to Jewish education. I have always found the comparison to predominantly Hungarian Sydney to be striking; Sydney produced a completely different community in the same time-span with the same resources.
"There is a Mizrachi in Melbourne who are vibrant. They would have been ten times more vibrant if their best and finest didn't go on Aliyah."
Probably true. It is not at all clear to me, though, that these fine Olim have made any difference at all in Israel. The people of Chelm stubbornly insist on doing everything wrong and so Israel is what it is today.
"I don't think the [Chabad] mission has ever been to weaken others, except when perhaps there were early issues with Lakewood."
Chabad fought Counterpoint (YU) tooth and nail. Bnei Akiva was tomeh. Adass (Satmar) meat is still off limits. If I am not mistaken, the Chabad Kollel was started BECAUSE they heard that Lakewood was starting a Kollel. Today, the various parts of the Melbourne frum community cooperate much more smoothly than 25 years ago.
Lubavitch has had its greatest success in Australia.It started from basically 4 Russian Lubavitchers about 60 years ago with a sprinkling of locals who had some backround such as R'Chaim Gutnick.From that small kernel they have grown to be the most powerful organization with most of the rabbinical positions.
They have done this at a price of dumbing down education with one school for boys and one for girls with a spectrum that ranges from frum from birth Lubavitcher shliach kids and non religous alltogether.There is obviously a price for this.The Local post high school yeshivas have been swamped with overseas talent sent in from America.
To stimulate discussion : "Worthy rabbis" For sure a few of the names did accomplish much in greater Boston. The rav Rav J.B. Soloveitchik created a fine institution of Jewish learning there and his shiurim contributed to jewish life. The Bostoner rebbe shlit's helped build the infrastructure of jewish life Mikveh, hachnosas Orchim, Adult Ed, Chevra kaddisha, and pioneered kiruv.
But may I know how some of the other names mentioned contributed to jewish life in Boston ?
If you look in Mayer S. Abramowitz's Chachmei NEw England you will note that many Orthodox rabbis served greater Boston. I posit that some of these contributed as much as several of the names mentioned in the article.
Leaving Chabad out of it? Why the hate. Chabad is just like any other organization with good and not so good. There are some selfish and some generous. The presence of Chabad does not hurt other institutions. We live in competitive diverse society. People go and support whatever they like.
Eric Yoffie made that same complaint in the JPost. Chabad weakens their temples. Yet, one has to ask, "Is it Chabad" Check out this week's NY Jewish Week. The young reform are looking for more tradition not less.
This idea that Chabad is somehow different is really offensive. Aish doesn't want its people to go to Aish? Is Ohr Someach recruiting for other yeshivot?
As for Baltimore being a strong community. I have found it to be one of the most unfriendly places around. No one says hi in the supermarket. I knew some Chabad counselors who were visiting there with British accents. A woman heard them conversing she introduced herself. That is until she found out that they were from a Chabad camp. She turned and left without even a goodbye.
Why the hate? Give someone a hug today and you will feel much better.
Seattle seems to fit the bill
Interesting comment I heard once about Melbourne. Melbourne was the home of one of the first Chabad cummunity kollels. A relative of the rosh kollel told me it was founded becuase chabad was tired of being mekarev people who then when they wanted somthing deeper affiliated with the Lakewood kollel.
Wrong. The Melbourne Lub Kollel has no Rosh Kollel, and was only founded when the Head Shaliach found out Lakewood was about to open their own. It opened up right before the lakewood one, so no-one was going to the Lakewood kollel before. More mythology.
With Love.
A point was made about Baltimore being a 'strong' Orthodox community.It is.There are about 25 000 Orthodox Jews there and besides for the New York area, including Monsey to the north and Lakewood to the south is probably the next largest in the United States.Nothing was mentioned about being friendly or not.I don't live there and even if I did 'friendliness' is quite subjective.Your anecdore about one woman in Baltimore proves nothing, even if it was true, but I've heard all to often Lubab make up stories about how they are hated, to take these stories seriously anymore.
With Love,
As to your opinion that Lubavitch is no different I beg to differ.No other group has gone to the lengths Lubavitch has gone to glorify their leader with,amonst other honorifics:Moshiach,Nosi Hador etc.
The strangest one is the Shlit'a business.Is that something you see amongst other groups??Get real please.
in fairness if you believe or know that your leader is the nasi hador, the mashiach, and a navi, how can you hold back that information?
In fairness if you believe the moon is made out of cheese or Jesus will have a second coming or that Elvis is shlit'a leolom voed, how can you hold back that 'important' info?
Seriously now:It boggles the mind that a major component of Lubavitch has gone bonkers, preaches the Rebbe is alive and they are still accepted as mainstream Orthodoxy.This includes quite a few rabbis of non Lubavitch synaggogues.
chabad has a gift its called chasidus they also have character and spunk to give to the world. they will have luck if they stop acting foolish and start being freindly.
Good question. I can, after living in Chicago for a year and a half, say that while I'm not Lubavitch, if I was Chicago is a great option. With a cheder, Mesifta and a two girls high schools, it offers quite a lot.
Slightly off topic...since I saw various Latin American cities mentioned with large Jewish communities that include Lubavitch, anyone know why Mexico City, D.F. has, as far as I can ascertain NO Lubav presence (unless it is undeground). Mexico City has about 40,000 Jews, quite sizeable by Jewish standards. They seem to have Allepan and Damascene Sephardi Syrian communities, Turkish Sehradim, Litvish, MO, Conservative and Reform, but I have seen no evidence of Chabad there. Google "Chabad" and "mexico" and you come up with Chabad in New Mexico, and apparently the rather small Jewish community Tijuana, right across from San Diego has a shule led by a Lubav. But why no Chabad in the country's capital and one of Latin America's largest Jewish communities? Anyone?
This was the Rebbe's policy so as not to conflict with the local frum community. One of the senior Rabbonim there was a Lubavitcher, and his grandson took his place when he was niftar.
Guravitzer--I assume you were answering my question about Mexico City--thanks, but in a lot of the other cities where Chabad Houses are prominent and where shluchim were sent, there have been strong and established non-Chabad frum communities that Chabad was not shy about "competing" with. It just seems as if Mexico City is the exception--my ex-wife is Mexican and in all of my travels to Mexico City I have seen no evidence of Chabad in Polanco (the main Jewish area of Mexico City). Now if the vibrant frum Jewish community Mexico City doesn't need "help" it would seem that kehilos in other cities in Mexico could use it--i.e., Guadalajara, Monterey. Not that Chabad is the best solution--but I think young Jews in those cities are moving to the capital, the States, making aliyah or intermarrying.
Apparently "Jabad" is opening in Cancun--but that's got to be to serve the Jewish tourists and not the local Jews.
http://oybay.wordpress.com/2007/...ouse-in-mexico/
I was speaking of Mexico (and not just the city). Other communities may not have had the same concerns as in Mexico. In fact, I cannot think of of one place where Chabad had a deletorious affect on the frum community. It may not have thrived, but I haven't heard of damage.
Competition in Judaism is good in Torah matters. Mexico must have been unique in that it would have been harmful, not just competitive.
hey. In Mexico City , there is a Chabad Look this link
http://beismoshiach.org/pdf/338/
...e_a_mexico.pdfd House, Rabbi Meizlich
Rabbi Meizlich is in Mexico City and Rabbi Abrumi Srugo is in Guadalajara and I think that someone else is in Moterrey and Rabbi Polichenko is in Tijuana
Mexico...aha..thanks for the info. I did hear of Rabbi Polichenko in Tijuana, and almost went to that shul when I visited San Diego and Tijuana a few years back. (My understanding though, was that although R.' Polichenko is a Lubav himself, the synagogue is more of a nusakh Ashkenaz MO shul that happens to have a Chabadnik rabbi, rather than a Chabad House). I guess my web-searching skills are bad because my googling found no mention of the Chabad Houses in D.F, Monterey and Guadalajara that you mentioned, and when I asked my former in-laws and my ex-wife's relatives about Chabad in D.F. they said "no hay Jabad aqui!"
I read the article from 2001...interesting.
Are the Meizlichs still going strong in D.F. 6 years later? I was always curious why Chabad had such a strong, even dominating presence in other Latin American Jewish communties over the past sevreal decades (e.g., Argentina, Uruguay, Brazil, Chile, even tiny communities like in Paraguay!)but such a neglible presence in Mexico. I noticed the article states that Meizlich initially knew no Spanish according to the article--I assume he speaks it by now. Most Mexican Jews speak English though, and many also speak Hebrew and/or Yiddish and Ladino, depending on where there families are from and their age and where they went to school, so not knowing Spanish was probably more of an impediment in dealing with Mexican officialdom (although the language of dinero en efectivo is understood by all)than the local Jews.
I know that the Meizlichs are now in Mexico.I dunno if they are succesfulls. This last month Chabad started in Cancun
B"H
I can't belive what i read, I have been here for 8 years the comunity change from conservative to ortodox any jew in this city knows my name!
an you say there no presence?
i think you have to serch before you publish
About Lubavitch "killing off community".
Regarding Boston, that is tremendous shtus. I am suspecting, regarding other cities too. In Boston area, there are subgroups of Jews, to whom Lubavitch "caters". E.g., Russian Jews who would be uncomfortable in MO shulls, college students (who wouldn't go anywhere else), etc. I go to Chabad of Boston University, Chabad of Brandeis University and Chabad of Lexington (a community shull) quite often and don't see too many people being dragged off from Young Israel, the MO shull. Chabad is not in competition with anyone here, and the MO are generally not interested in Chabad anyway. R"L too: Chabad, if successfully appealing to the "core" Boston community would light the necessary fire under it.
The reason why Boston has a week community is that because it is a bastion of MO, and the only worthy source of Yiddiskeit outside of Chabad (the Bostoner Rebbe, who is loved by the yound MO unsatisfied in their own movement, btw) is not as strong as once before. The whole city is full of kaltkeit -- probably because it is full of pseudo-intellectuals, a bunch of professors in humanities and social sciences in local universities, and because it is the home of the MO movement, which, with time, will go the way of Conservative and Reform (I don't know whether I should say "lehavdil").
It definitely looks like once somebody is full of spite towards something, he will lose all rationality and objectivity.
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