mentalblog.com comments:
A Janover esrog , of course.
note the lulav is wrapped in a basket-like thing. I think there are other Roman-period coins that show a lulav/esrog without the basket-thing, showing that the machlokes about how to tie the lulav together goes back to the Tannaim.
note the lulav is wrapped in a basket-like thing.
If you look at this image I think it's clear that the "basket" is really the base of a huge bundle of hadassim with a couple of belts around it:
http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/g.../
Hendin_687.jpg
Here's another one from the same site. COmpare the shapes of the etrogim, which are reflected in the shapes of etrogim today:
http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/g.../
Hendin_669.jpg
This is really remarkable! There can't be many fruits that have remained so unchanged over millennia of domestication.
Looks like Joe of Australia is right.
Hey, kudos!
Anyways, the basket-thing is weird, and hard to believe that back then anybody would do this. It's a pretty unnatural looking arrangement.
I am not a Lubav, but I totally agree with this part - all the minnim need to be tied up as they are.
But the interesting part is that in the picture there are only 2 wraps around the Haddassim as they are tied up to the Lulav, different from Lubav minhag.
Any comments?
It's like I said - the second coin Joe brings (I assume you're the Joe who stayed with us and Zev S. in the hotel in Philadelphia in 2001?) shows the lulav tied like the Lubavs do today - no basket, so there is a machloket hatziyurim that shows the current variants go back to Tannaitic times.
The first coin is pretty clearly a basket-thing to me, albeit perhaps woven differently than ours today. Two sprigs stick up from the basket-thing, presumably representing the hadassim and arovos.
what says to me "basket thing" is that in all the pictures, the strands are interwoven - alternating rows shift over half a column. That suggests basketwork to me, rather than a bunch of parallel hadassim tied together.
Thanbo:
Yes, I am indeed that Joe. And I stand by my conclusion that the bulging part is hadassim. The two strands sticking up are the two aravos. This is a literal representation of a set of arba minim that is consistent with modern rabbinic halacha. The large amount of hadassim is because there is no maximum shiur - even today many people use large amounts of hadassim.
If the bulging section were supposed to be a basket you'd see diagonal strands, not vertical columns. I can't see any evidence for what you describe as interweaving.
Zorba:
But the interesting part is that in the picture there are only 2 wraps around the Haddassim as they are tied up to the Lulav, different from Lubav minhag.
Now that I look closely I see three belts in each picture: one right at the base, one at the top of the bare part of the myrtle stems, one further up the stems. As to why it isn't consistent with Lubavitch minhag, if it isn't, I guess that it was an earlier dispensation.
"As to why it isn't consistent with Lubavitch minhag," the coins, without question, must be m'zuyoffim. Yep, that's the only possible explanation.
Joe: the interweaving isn't obvious in the Hendin pictures, but see http://amuseum.org/book/page19.html examples 98-100, where the interweaving is very obvious - each of the 4 rows shifts over half a space.
The engravers had no problem depicting parallel lines, see #96 - the fluted lines on the jug.
There appear to be ties at bottom and middle, while the top is an open edge. Perhaps it does enclose a lot of hadassim, with two aravot out the top; but then what about our rule of hadassim on one side and aravot on the other?
Seems more likely a basket thingie with two plants coming out the top, one each, following Rebbi Akiva in Sukkah 3:4, who was associated with the Bar-Kochba movement. Then there are some stems that stick out the bottom.
The ones you mark Hendin 669 appear to be tied Lubav-style, perhaps as you say with a lot of hadassim - but the stems are clearly tied directly to the base of the lulav - there's no bulging basket-holder.
Looking at page http://www.amuseum.org/book/page14.html in the Hbk of Jewish Numismatics, #69A might be a lulav/esrog, and it shows three branches and a lump that might be an esrog - following Rebbi Akiva, again (First Revolt 66-70 CE).
Examples 73-75 appear to be tied directly to the lulav, with an indeterminate number of side-twigs.
The next coins to show lulav/esrog are Second Revolt, as above.
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