mentalblog.com comments:
"according to a rumor among Chabad Hassidim, the Rebbe had a child who died young. "
?
i heard a rumor and its official denial. the rumor was explained as a confusion of the identity of Barry Gourary as the Rebbe's son (sic!), because in a certain period of his life he preferred the Rebbe's company to his father's.
This article is very painful to read because I see what is happening to our community and we stand idly by as Rome burns.
The Rebbe was in Berlin and Paris 14 years. Did he work a single day? I don't mean to minimize the intensity of his private learning. But considering that he was outside of the jewish community by choice should those years be analogous to Rashbi in the cave?
"In order to preserve the family's distinguished lineage, there were many marriages within the family; these often led to the birth of mentally and physically handicapped children. The Rebbe himself had a mentally ill brother, Dov Ber, who was murdered by the Nazis in the Ukrainian hospital where he was hospitalized"
1. in the rebbes family there was very little inbreeding, if at all.
2.mental illness didnt even come from the schneersohn side of the family.
alot of people married cousins. there werent many options and you stuck with what you knew. this phenomena was in no exclusive to beis harav
The rebbe having a child, well it was his Rebbetzin who would have had the child.
In Slonim's genealogy of the Schneerson family published after the Second World warin Palestine, the rebbe is listed as being the father of Shalom Duber Schneerson. This is probably in confusion with Shalom Dov Ber Gourary.
Perhaps Lubavitch is headed towards a state like some Shia who are looking for the missing Iman.
Or better yet in a post Czar Nicholas 2 era where many Anastasia -like pretenders appeared claimimg to be a child of the last Czar.
Okay I'll make the first claim for the throne just for the record.
"Neched rabbainu" mentioned above had things to say about this subject, I can not repeat them here as I have know way of knowing if they were accurate representations of the truth. A few claims he made , did appear in teh Israeli pres at the time of the book case. Interestingly they were never re-printed.
While Barry was close to the rebbe before 1950, he had little love for him after 1950. At the same time he mad efew crude comments etc against his uncle in the realm of frumkayt, rather his beef was over other areas.
I think 1 reason Friedman has hesitated in publishing his book about the rebbe is the fact that parts of it are seemingly lifted from the 2 volume work by Shimon Deutsch.And if not lifted then Deutsch certainly scooped Friedman in many of his so called Chashifot Rishonot. Years back when Friedman first published his lengthy 2 partseries on the rebbe in Haaretz (?) I e mailed him about this and he conceded the fact and said attributions to Deutsch would be made in any further publication , but I am still waiting.
On the pther hand this sort of literary behavior is not unheard of nn Israel.
Inbreeding in other Chassidishe Heyfen is quite common to this very day. Some don't even venture out of the family at all! Look at any invitation from Vizhnitz or Skver today and you'll very often see that two grandchildren marry each other. I'd like to know the amount of mental illness in those families.
didnt deutsch also claim that they had a child?
1. Deutsch never made any claims that the rebbe had natural children.
2. I spoke to a Geneticist at Yale (he himself) was a scion of a very prominent Hungarian rabbinic family and later killed himself)University over 30 years ago of the issue of the effects of continuous marriage amongst cousins.
His reply that the worst that can happen is deafness.
My late teacher Prof Cyrus H. Gordon of NYU reported that the small Samaritan community in Palestine he was familiar with in the 1930's and 40's were marked by many idiots etc because of many hundreds of years of marriage among close relatives .
I doubt the Rebbe's side of the Schneesohns were any more intramarried than the average family in East Europe so I doubt its applicable. The main line was very intramarried and who knows but it seenms that their fertility was much affected the Rashab had 1 child the rayaatz 3 and only 1 grandchild from 3 daughters and the that child had no issue. Amazing !
Schneur,
"I doubt the Rebbe's side of the Schneesohns were any more intramarried than the average family in East Europe"
really??? hard to believe.
I don't see the desc. of Reb Baruch Shalom Schneersohn marrying each other.
MY grand parents from my fathers side were also 1st cousins and so on, and they were simple baalebatim. (maybe thats why I am crazy)
I did find it unusual that the rebbe's father and uncle married 2 sisters who were not related to the Schneerson family.
It's a tired issue, boring for the most part at this point, but maybe someone can claify something here:
I have noticed on a number of occasions mention of the Rebbe's brother Berel's mental illness (I didn't know this was considered a secret however, I heard about this when I was a bochur in yeshiva, so I wonder what the accusation about this being erased came from), however my understanding was that it a breakdown or something along those lines that took place in his early teens.
Does anyone have differing information?
The business about the Rebbe Z"YA being the seventh generation wasn't new. People in the Rebbe RSh"B's generation found it significant that he was the seventh generation (from the Baal Shem Tov), and the Rebbe himself referred to the Rebbe RYY"Tz as being the seventh generation - because the RRYY"Tz was spiritually joined to his father. So it's not new.
The article states
"but only after lengthy research was the Rebbe's name found in a list of people auditing classes at the university. It turns out that during his six years in Berlin (1926-1932)"
How much research could this have taken, as there is a letter from the University in Berlin in the second Volume of Deutsch's book giving us this information! (check out who the letter is addressed to)
It should say
It turns out that during his six years in Berlin (1926-1932), the Rebbe studied philosophy and mathematics for a semester and a half.
But I just looked at Deutsch and he has nothing about studying philosophy and mathematics, so apparently this was Friedman's find (but is this even true?
The picture is very eloquent. I really wanted you to win the best picture blog, if nothing else.
As far as Rashbi in a cave, the Rebbe gave (at least) a shiur in a local shul. But in general yes, the Rebbe resembled the old country Talmidei Chachomim who would spend the majority of the day learning in private, and any communal involvement or personal needs were accomplished in a very short period of time. The Rebbe continued this in NY to some extent.
Guravitzer IF the way you describe the Rebbe in your post is accurate in places like Berlin and Paris where Torah knowledge was not widespread, why did the rebbe insist that others leave the way of the "old country talmide Chachomim" and get involved rosho veruvo in communal work and later on in PR and fund raising ?Why did the rebbe criticize Zikne Anash like the fellows in Tel Aviv in the 1950's for behavior you state he himself followed ?
If you read the sichos and letters of those times, including the letters to the Zikne Anash of Tel Aviv, you will find the Rebbe himself responding to your questions, instead of my poor self.
Deutsch has an interesting take on the Rayatz’s opposition to the Rebbe’s studies in Berlin and Paris. lubavitchers are so adamant in their denial of the disagreement, at least in part, because they can think only of one reason for it, namely prohibition of secular studying. Deutsch suggests that the Rayatz’s opposition stemmed from his willingness to involve the Rebbe in Rayatz’s work. according to Deutsch, it was the Rebbe’s reluctance to help Rayatz that Rayatz could not accept, and had nothing to do with Rebbe’s activity in Berlin on Paris.
Barry Gourary told me numerous times that upon leaving the USSR the Rayaatz's chief goal was rescue and relief work there. He added that his father Reb Shmaryahu was involved in thsi effort almost full time. And he expected the new son in law to join in this effort. he was very disappointed in the son in law's rejection of this .
So in this case its not the Ramash's going to college that upset the Rayaatz but his going to Berlin and leaving the hoif and its activities .
I think the Rayaatz was also against college , it must have been embarressing for him when meting other important rebbes like thwe Munkatcher, Gerer etc to have a son in law in Berlin and in university.
Schneur, you meant to say two sons in law in university.
The Rebbe's talks and his notes make it clear that he was a Chossid of his predecessor in the fullest sense. He was brokenhearted after the previous Rebbe's death and had difficulty accommodating it. I guess it's possible that this attachment blossomed later, but I find it hard to swallow.
These two extraordinary people may have had a tempestuous relationship. If so, it's because it was a passionate one. I don't believe the Rebbe could have had a cold relationship with anyone, nor that the son of R' Levi Yitzchok could have contemplated a future outside Rabbonus.
jo,
it is evident from the FR letters and the rebbe's reshimos that this relationship didn't blossom later, indeed it was already intense and growing at the very time the rebbe was in berlin and paris.
if you don't believe that the son od r' levi yitzchok could have contemplated a future outside rabbonus how do you [r' berel aside] rationalize r' yisroel areye leib...?
And actually according to other sources, it had to do with the Rebbe not wanting the confrontations with the Rashag, which caused tremendous Agmas Nefesh to the FR as well. It was a case of hurt either way, and possibly the Rebbe judged this to be less hurtful to the FR. The hurt in the family was there regardless.
Interesting that you say rabbonus specifically, because the Rebbe refused to actually pasken himself, and refered questions to Dvorkin and others.
Joe -
At the same time, there's also a concept of the Rebbe's (himself, not attached) being "dor hatshi'i" - from the Baal Shem Tov (and, "shvi'i" in Chassidus Chabad specifically, the Alter Rebbe).
One instance is Bo 5752 - Mugah (in TM - Vol. 2, p. 148).
[Unfortunately, the context there was later used as a warped slogan for the Messianists].
RE - The Rebbe having a son..:
A similar, boggling issue, is with the Frierdiker Rebbe as for being an only son, as well:
In Otzar Minhagei Chabad (Nissan-Sivan), Mondshein discusses the FR's hanhoga of indeed fasting taanis bechoros.
For public benefit – I'll quote the relevant excerpt ( p. 89):
"כ"ק מו"ח אדמו"ר [מוהריי"צ] הי' בכור, הי' עושה סיום מס' בערב-פסח, נוסף לכך שמע סיום מאדם אחר, ובכל זאת הי' מתענה." (שיחת י"ט כסלו תשט"ז; וסב' שמועות-וסיפורים, א, עמ' קכא מסופר בשם הרבנית שטערנא שרה ע"ה, שבנה מוהריי"צ הי' ספק בכור)."
Just wondering – does that mean there was a 'neifel'?
*
More direct to the topic -
There's a rumor that the Rebbetzin (in their first years in NY), flew to England to check with top doctors for any possibility for a child. And, that when the Rebbe went to the airport to pick her up afterwards – the Rebbe met her with tears, realizing the answer..
What I don't get is (besides for having to verify – k'poshut!): Then they were already in their middle-age! Anyone?
be eliezer, "meet her with tears in the airport" is a stylistic signal that the story is nonsense.
I"ll get in trouble for this one.
If the rebbe did have a son , I am willing to bet he would be very much like Barry Gourary in religious matters. Given who his mother and father were.
Does anyone really think if the rebbe had a son born in 1930 lets say ,he would have been sent to Tomche Tmimmim in the 1940's , (certainly he would not have gone to any other yeshiva high school) he probably would have gone to Brooklyn College or even YU and would be an MO like Barry.Given the family interest in math, physics etc , he too would have majored in the hard sciences.
Any son of Rabbi MMS would have been college educated, under the influence of his very modern mother and probably would not have gone to Tomche Tmimmim for any serious period of time.In other words Bernard S. Schneerson would be like his cousin Barry Gourary . And like Barry would hardly be interested in being a miracle working rebbe.
Schneur, LOL!
i am not insinuating anything, but did RaShaG spend any meaningful time with his son? considering all the time that the Rebbe had in Europe for himself, the Rebbe may have paid more attention to his offspring. especially that now we know that the Rebbe's interest in science has been greatly exaggerated.
Faruq. The Rashag and his son, if it was not the Rashag who made the educational decsions for his son , then who was it, his mother ? C"mon you don't beliecve that , or perhaps the educational decision maker was the person - his uncle- he was very close to until 1950 ? Or perhaps the 6th nasi thought that Teyre VeDaas was better for his sole eynikel than TTL ?
By the way how do we know the rebbe's interest in science was exaggerated , all we know from Deutsch's book is that the Rebbe was not the great scientist his PR machine claimed he was , but he clearly had a tremendous interest in science, problem solving etc. And Barry conceded that much. And while the rebbe did not study at the S. in paris , he attended a scientific Institute, . In modern terms just because someone majors in physics at Brooklyn College rather than MIT does not indicate alck of interest in science.Rebbe mechabed scientists Paul Rosenbloom, Dunin, Branover, Velvel Greene, vechuli vechuli.
Finally I am not sure anyone in todays chabad world really knows the nature of the father son relationship(except on the basis of stories thrice told) in the Gourary family as one does not know the father son relationship lets say between Leibel Schneerson and his father.
if someone majors in engineering in a technical college, rather than in physics in either BC or MIT, it does indicate rather practical approach to life.
Back to the Haaretz article, I am shocked at how sloppily it is written. Any occasional reader of mentalblog can find at least six real factual errors in that article. A professor researched that!
What a shanda!
Most of these rumors about the Rebbe in Paris or Berlin are made up. But if they were true ,it would make the Rebbe even greater, look what a regular person can accomplish, became a tzaddik and brought many thousands Ydden to Iddishkait
and regarding the Rebbe's brothers, these are very old news, almost all Lubavitchers know this. In fact to have a brother with special needs, it is a sign that it was a family of tzadikim. Hashem send these kids only to very special ppl
I think that the Rebbe's accepted biography, his interest in engineering reflected in some of his letters, his education etc all indicate an interest in science.Does it indicate a great scientist who knows? but kids reading Science News and high school students majoring in earth science also have an INTEREST IN SCIENCE. There is a distinction between having an interest in science and being a great or accomplished scientist. Are we witness to a new line by 770 that the rebbe went to university in Berlin and paris for Parnosseh reasons(practical approach to life) lets say like Touro college. I guess he doubted thaT his shver was not beyecholes to support him...
i said that his interest had been EXAGGERATED. i had an impression from reading letters to pr. Green, i think, that the Rebbe referenced his sources from much older german scientific works, rather than the new research available in the 1960s. i will have to check that.
are we witnessing an old line of a zubrechener dissident who will drop dead from disappointment if his nemesis disappears? Schneur, i know little of what is happening in 770.
me'inyan le'inyan be'oisoi inyan
http://www.col.org.il/show_news....rtx?
artID=29779
i hope for their sake that its not leibel........
This whole argument is really pointless. The Rebbe's legacy is what he accomplished during his lifetime. The story of his 2 brothers is old news.
Even so, he is not responsible for them.
At the end of the day, the Rebbe's worldwide accomplishments speak for themselves...PERIOD
"Just wondering – does that mean there was a 'neifel'?"
most probably a sofek neifel as a neifel would render him entirely not a bechor
ESTP compares to a prestigious American University like UCLA and the likes maybe even an Ivy League U., certainly not Touro College... please do your homework.
I agree that its not Touro College, but my respectable "bar pleguta" implied the comparison. You prove my point the rebbe was very interested in science and perhaps even was a better than average scientist although he clearly was not mechadesh anything, never finished his doctorate and never published any papers.
I understand that Reb Leibel looks like the rebbe - was balding and had wild hair on the sides of his head like BG. So I guess this is not him.
I am sure Aguch could get Mrs. Dalia Schneerson-Roitman to give them a picture . if they so desired.
I must say its amazing that close to 13 years after he died we are still here debating the fine points of his life, one can not say the same thing about any other major Jewish leader of recent times.
Because no one falsified so much history as on this major Jewish leader.
You will take that statement one way, and I will take it the other, but the conclusion remains the same.
this looks like a government picture and it is not dated.
it's the eyes
sto, who is in the photo? My guess it is Yanovsky side.
theyre not saying yet. check the comments. they are sayingthat its a cousin. (they had a picture of rebbetzin chanehs sister not to long ago)
definitely looks like rebbitzin chanehs family. the rebbe looked like his mother. r. leibl looked like the rebbe. i hope to g-d its not him. not that it's a secret, but will open a pandoras box accross lubavitch (something you are for, i understand)
the bastards did draw him a yarmulke. I will bet my house this is not Leibl.
Schneur said: "was a better than average scientist" how the hell do we know this? i thought a scientist is someone who is involved in research. ok this is futile. i rest my case. the Rebbe was a scientist and "a better than average" noch dertzu.
at least they did not attach a beard.
The problem is, what pandora's box? Lubavitch has never claimed Leibel was frum or not (I have no clue either way, or if somewhere in the middle, or if he had different tekufos in his life as far as observance, which makes the most sense). I won't even lay the blame on that statement at Friedman's door, it's Haaretz shoddy reporting.
The article, read properly, is a puff piece on Friedman. I'm not taking it personally.
they call him a "chossid". why would they refer to an obviously secular person with that term.
guravitzer
what pandoras box?
well -the rebbe called this man a tzaddik. he didnt have to. he wasnt exactly a high profile person in lubavitch. as a matter of fact, other than some old leningrader and tel aviver (who remeber him quite fondly, actualy), no one even knew him.
the rebbe, who by all accounts was a very private individual, went all out and made a huge deal out of him. people go up to his grave on his yortzeit and name their kids for him.
i once told my seventh grade teacher that i heard that rya"l was not frum and he responded emphaticaly that it couldnt be and with proofs nochdertzu.
ask any fourth grader and they'll tell you that he was "a tzaddik", -a term not quite associated with clean shaven people (as the pic will show), never mind a man that was not frum.
Then this is recent as of 10 years ago, and needs to stop. Please show me where the Rebbe referred to him as a Tzaddik in the particulars of his behavior. There is a well known inquiry of the FR as to why he writes to certain people "Ish Yere Elokim", a G-d fearing man, while the person was by no means observant. The reply of the FR was that he sees the pnimius.
Chossid can refer to the level of Chossid of Elie Wiesel as well. He was never described as particularly religious in the older writings about him, nothing about "keeping mitzvos while doing the sciences", which you would expect if that claim was being made. I'm not going to take responsibility for some teacher's statements, and the teacher should be taught to stop making them, but there has been no official write up of Leibel making him out to be observant - again, I say this not knowing if he was or was not.
"the bastards did draw him a yarmulke."
I'm assuming you think they are bastards regardless, because the yarmulke may actually have been there, perhaps out of respect for whatever he was attending. And I'm glad to see that you get to keep your house :-).
I think he is Yanovsky. May be Rebbe's mothers brother.
guravitzer
obviously one cannot confuse "particulars of his behaviour" and the madreigoh that was attributed to him.
my point is that most mainstream lubavitchers (that particular melamed included) would be horrified to learn these facts.
no one ever said that he was religiously observant. all you'll hear is his knowledge of dach, his relationship with his brother, the "chizoyein" of the FR etc.
fact is that if you slap a pic of him the way he was in reality online, there would be tremendous outrage and disbelief and of course, denial.
The problem with posting a pic would be his wish for privacy, and the family's wish. It is one thing to visit his kever and learn the Chasidus that the Rebbe edited for his yohrtzeit. Posting a picture crosses a line of privacy in his case, no more would I post a picture of Barry - and I truthfully do not know if either of them had a beard and yarmulke or what kind.
If the denial is shortlived, it is just natural. Once the denial starts becoming part of the Meshichist method of learning sichos so that they only prove what you want, it needs to be stopped. But then again, an article in Haaretz by Friedman won't stop it.
To faruq (12:03)--
I doubt this to be the case, for at least in other fields, the Rebbe was definitely updated.
See the recent interview on Israel's Channel 2 (journalist Shlomo Nakdimon's say):
http://www.col.org.il/show_news....rtx?
artID=29763
*
(Besides for which, I can't place it now, but there were instances in science as well for this.
-- Albeit, certain statements were generalizations, or just up to that time: See "Mah Rabu Ma'asecha"* by Branover and Ginzburg - where they footnote -- in few places -- updates to present times, may not say so).
*Now translated as "Mind Over Matter", the Rebbe's say on Science.
'' Back to the Haaretz article, I am shocked at how sloppily it is written. Any occasional reader of mentalblog can find at least six real factual errors in that article. A professor researched that!
What a shanda!
yehupitz ''
Yehupitz, something must've brought the apologist out of you.What is it that scares you so?
Prof Friedman did not right the article in Haaretz, it's an article ABOUT his book.(but you knew that anyway, just try to slip the wool over our eyes,eh?)
About the six 'real, factual' (cute usage,btw.Both real and factual...)errors.Can you tell us what they are??
(Btw, tzemach based his post and reportage from Paris with the pic of the Rebbes house on Friedmans research)
*
Write
Guravitzer.
You know fully well that Barry Gourary had a full trimmed beard, (and wore a Kippah) as his picture appeared in the NY TIMES, and Newsday (in color holding a portrait of his Zaide).The ALgemeiner ZHURNAL a paper read by many Lubavitcher also had several pictures of Barry and his mother visiting Satmar. Gourary was wearing a black hat (the brim was shorter than his uncle's) and a beard. In additon hundreds of Lubavitcher people saw him at the book trial. And Barry visited 770 - his parents in the 1960's and 1970;s and was seen then tooEven before the book case when ever Ia sked the chasidim told me that Barry was bearded..So with all respect knock it off !
I will not bother to describe the religious state of the other gentlemen you mention , because I agree with you it has little bearing on a discussion of ideas and issues.
I actually had no clue, and will trust you on this. I have never seen him or his picture. I am not sure how my asking you and others to knock it off becomes an opportunity to tell me to knock it off, but if this keeps you going, so be it.
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