Long live the lanzman Guravizer!
Tzemach Atlas | Homepage | 04.26.07 - 9:09 pm | #

So Tzig dedicates the picture to you, and you dedicate it to me?
guravitzer | 04.26.07 - 9:21 pm | #

gerecht!
Tzemach Atlas | Homepage | 04.26.07 - 9:25 pm | #

I would dedicate it to Sr. Guravitzer, but you never stop by anymore.
HirshelTzig | Homepage | 04.26.07 - 9:37 pm | #

I am honored. In general, the farbrengen of the Frierdike Rebbe at the Bar Mitzvah is fascinating (and long). Wonder who wrote the hanocho.

Men kon nit tantzen oif ale chasunes.
guravitzer | 04.26.07 - 9:51 pm | #

That's when the Frierdike Rebbe told the "curse" story...
berl, crown heights | 04.26.07 - 10:48 pm | #

what story is that?
Tzemach Atlas | Homepage | 04.26.07 - 10:51 pm | #

Nit alle, nor tzvei
HirshelTzig | Homepage | 04.26.07 - 11:39 pm | #

The curse story is the one about the Volyn tzaddikim cursing the Alter Rebbe for refusing to sign on to a cheirum against the misnagdim. The Alter Rebbe said that since cheirum cuts a Jew off from sheiresh nishmosei and can eventually lead to a chillul haShem, he will have no part in it. As response, the visitors cursed the Alter Rebbe. The Likkutei Dibburim (where the talk is printed) does not say what the curse actually was, only that the Mittele Rebbe (who was listening in on the conversation behind the door) passed out and was ill for a very long time.

I heard years ago that the curse was something like, "if you refuse, chillul haShem will come from your own children." The Alter Rebbe reportedly replied, "Not in my lifetime." I also heard then that people thought the curse was about R’ Meishe (based solely on appearance of impropriety and accusation leveled against him – no one said then that he actually did anything wrong; nor am I saying or implying it now).
-
berl, crown heights | 04.26.07 - 11:49 pm | #

i can't believe the last comments actually came from berl. it simply cannot be.
Anonymous | 04.27.07 - 12:48 am | #

simply cannot keep silent for the כבוד התורה
faruq | 04.27.07 - 12:50 am | #

faruq, this was technically already brought up here before. I will find the link.
Tzemach Atlas | Homepage | 04.27.07 - 12:52 am | #

i don't care about the subject. all i'm saying is that this was not berl, crown heights, but someone else who had hijacked his alias.

if it was berl, i had gone mad.
faruq | 04.27.07 - 1:13 am | #

Berl seems to be implying that the story with R'Meishe is true.Well that is impossible! (not the story being true, that Partisan Berl would even imply as such.Btw, the mayseh is dumb, it puts serious tzadikim in a silly immature light, nuch a bubbeh mayseh...)
Chaim | 04.27.07 - 4:16 am | #

faruq,
Relax, all is well. This was the "oral law" around this story for a long time (I heard this particular bit from an old chosid in 1986). The gist was, "Imagine, all these years people thought the curse was about R' Meishe!" (vedai lechakimo beremizo).
Look, the accusations against R' Meishe were well known. It is not unreasonable to consider these accusations to be the fulfillment of that "curse". Now, I specifically stated that I did not think nor implied anything beyond that… I meant that.
Anyways, I must have missed some hidden meaning in my own comment...

Chaim,
"Serious tzaddikim" – what priceless drivel! But then what's the point of conversing with a cretin capable of this sort of phraseology?
-
berl, crown heights | 04.27.07 - 5:02 am | #

אן אלטער עם הארץ ווער האט זיך גוט אויסגעלערנט כללי דקדוק לעת זקנותו
faruq | 04.27.07 - 6:59 am | #

faruq, I don't know what your fly bit your ocher. I reported it as I heard it. Anyways, I am not inclined to spend my time on figuring out your remozim. State your problem with my comment clearly.
berl, crown heights | 04.27.07 - 9:25 am | #

first you will have to stop saying Frierdike and Mittele, how about Alte Rebbe? then we will talk.
faruq | 04.27.07 - 9:56 am | #

didn't you know Yiddish is now unisex?
berl, crown heights | 04.27.07 - 10:54 am | #

Imagine that! a missing letter "r" brought Faruq back from the dead. That's all it took; one little r.
Hirsheltzig | Homepage | 04.27.07 - 11:02 am | #

"Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned / Nor hell a fury like a woman scorned." Congreve
Truman | 04.27.07 - 11:03 am | #

rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated.

Tzig,
i heard from a friend, true polyglot, that Hungarian is a uniquely unisex language.
faruq | 04.27.07 - 11:29 am | #

This is true.
Hirsheltzig | Homepage | 04.27.07 - 12:15 pm | #

HEY! was that some kind of underhanded shtech?
Hirsheltzig | Homepage | 04.27.07 - 12:15 pm | #

While on the subject I just remembered this: Der Alter fun Slaboka's Rebbetzin was known as Di Alte.

discuss amongst yourselves.
Hirsheltzig | Homepage | 04.27.07 - 12:19 pm | #

'Chaim,
"Serious tzaddikim" – what priceless drivel! But then what's the point of conversing with a cretin capable of this sort of phraseology?'

-
Why would I want to converse with Mr Yeshus himself, the all time 'know-it-all'?
Chaim | 04.27.07 - 2:35 pm | #

I had heard that the curse was a literal curse word, but I can't remember which. The legends abound.
guravitzer | 04.27.07 - 4:03 pm | #

While on the topic:

I've heard (from several sources), that the Rebbe frowned on chassidim referring as "Der Frierdiker Rebbe" (which may sound passive and derogatory), that it should be "Der Rebbe Rayatz" etc.

Also, there's a sicha from the early years (IIRC - TM vol. 14), in the footnotes - that a chassid referred as the "Rebbe's shver", to wehich the Rebbe, smilingly, said "Der Shver iz nit Shver".
Ben Eliezer | 04.28.07 - 6:21 pm | #

I'm curious, what are these sources?I've never heard of this. The Rebbe always referred to the Frierdike Rebbe in public as Der Rebbe der Shver. The reference is always published as Cha"K Mu"Ch (Mori Vechami, my teacher and father-in-law) Admo"r.
guravitzer | 04.29.07 - 12:49 am | #

Guravitzer - you're right; the Rebbe did say "der [Rebbe der] shver" on a regular basis. I brought this case, on the topic, which was Al derech Hatzachus, if you will.

Here: TM vol. 5 [Shmini 5712], page 182:
..
[כ"ק אדמו"ר שליט"א ביקש לעיין בלשון הגמרא, ולאחרי העיון המשיך לדבר בענינים אחרים באחזו את הגמרא בידיו הק', וכשא' החסידים הציע ליקח הגמרא, באמרו "אפשר איז דעם רבי'ן שווער", אמר כ"ק אדמו"ר שליט"א: "א רבי'ן איז תורה ניט שווער"].
*

R' Leibel Groner says the vort about the Frierdiker Rebbe - on many occasions; that the Rebbe told (him?) in yechidus. Others I don't have on hand. [Bichlal, you see certain mashpiim that b'davka will say "Rayatz"].
Ben Eliezer | 04.29.07 - 1:38 am | #

"I've heard (from several sources), that the Rebbe frowned on chassidim referring as "Der Frierdiker Rebbe".

Ben Eliezer,
That's very interesting, but if true, there is no appropirate way to refer to the Freirdiker Rebbe. His father is always refferred to as דער רבי נ"ע , not 'RASHA"B'. So why would it be respectful to call him 'RAYAT"Z' ? Besides, while the Rebbe always called him נשיא דורינו , the chasidim never did that.
berl, crown heights | 04.29.07 - 2:01 am | #

I'm sorry - the TM is incorrect. Here's the right one (also - the Rebbe is saying about the FR not liking the word "shver"):

TM vol. 11 [Beshalach 5714], p. 69 (בלתי מוגה), footnote 107:

(לא' אמר:) ישנם כאלה (כמוך וכמו חותנך*) שבטבעם חוששים שמא הזולת ימעט בהדמות שלהם. אך האמת היא, שמה ששייך לכם, לא יכול אף אחד ליטול מכם בשום אופן, וכן לאידך, מה ששייך להזולת אי אפשר ליטול ממנו בשום אופן, כך שאין ממה לחשוש... ואדרבה: כאשר משתדלים ועוזרים להזולת שיוכל למלא שליחותו, הרי זה מהוה סיוע במילוי השליחות שלו.

*) כשהזכיר את התואר "שווער" – אמר: כ"ק מו"ח אדמו"ר לא הי' סובל שיקראוהו בשם "שווער", והי' אומר: "דער שווער זאָל ניט זיין שווער".

If it doesn't come out straight, see it here:

www.chabadlibrary.org/books/

[-- then click on the appropriate sefer; Noteworthy, that the search engine there didn't pick it up; I had to flip through myself].

I can't get the "Smileys" off either. Tzemach? Technical assistance..?
Ben Eliezer | 04.29.07 - 2:03 am | #

Berl -
I don't have answers; I merely brought up intersting points of discussion.

But in a similar vein to your point - there's a piece in Haoros UBiurim last year, about when the Mitteler Rebbe started being called such (somethign discussed there before as well).

See:
http://haoros.com/archive/?kovet...&cat=11& haoro=8
Ben Eliezer | 04.29.07 - 3:19 am | #

Thank you.
guravitzer | 04.29.07 - 3:32 am | #

Ben Eliezer,
Thank you.
As for the ‘smileys’, just insert a word space between your text and the brackets.
berl, crown heights | 04.29.07 - 7:18 am | #

I just turned off the smileys, they are useless.
Tzemach Atlas | Homepage | 04.29.07 - 8:32 am | #

"The curse story is the one about the Volyn tzaddikim cursing the Alter Rebbe for refusing to sign on to a cheirum against the misnagdim. The Alter Rebbe said that since cheirum cuts a Jew off from sheiresh nishmosei and can eventually lead to a chillul haShem, he will have no part in it. As response, the visitors cursed the Alter Rebbe."

See also Igros Kodesh M'ha'Rayatz vol. 14 letter 5135, sefer hasichos 1936 p. 80

In reshimos the story is recorded with names, and iirc the curse was only an uttered profanity...
he who walks the walk | 05.02.07 - 12:27 am | #