mentalblog.com comments:
Although I agree with the comments here, there is more than meets the eye.
Indeed Chabad has gone off the deep end in the last 15 years. I won't argue there.But the fact that the Yeshiva world (As I have remarked many times these people are not Lithuanian jews they are of Yekke, Hungarian or American Young Israel or BT extraction and backgrounds except for the roshe yeshiva there are few Litvishe talmidim in this world)) gets along with Ger, Belz or Bobov means nothing. The only Chassiduth that stresses Chassiduth as a derech hachaim and the intense study of Ruchnius al pi Nistar is essentially Chabad and Bratzlov. And both are disliked by the Yeshiva world.
They also disliked Shlomo Carlebach,Shloime Twerski , and others who talk in a ruchniusdike lashon and actually talk about G-D, man their relationshiop etc.Spirituality and the yeshiva are not a "pohr" as we say in Yiddish.
I think one can sit in the yeshiva wold for weeks without a serious discussion of man's role in this world and what G-D seeks here.
Do you really think the average Litvisher knows the difference between the Mehalchim of Vizhnitz and Chabad vis-a-vis nistar? Are you kidding?
The antipathy to Chabad and the minimal antipathy to Breslov are caused by the same thing. Looniness. Nuttiness. Fringe behavior and theology. Quit trying to excuse it away. Us Litvishers have no clue about the subtle differences between the Toirah of the Alter Rebbe and Toiras Ger. None at all. And we certainly dont base our positions regarding these movements based on that.
"I think one can sit in the yeshiva wold for weeks without a serious discussion of man's role in this world and what G-D seeks here."
This is by far the most ridiculous sentence I have read in a very long time. The average Yeshiva Talmid learns and knows the contents of Mesilas Yeshorim, Rav Dessler, Orchos Tzaddikim, Shaarei Teshuva, Alei Shor, and all the rest...
It seems to me that Chabad defenders truly live in an alternate reality.
Shlomo Zarchi sheyichyeh used to say that pishen in Mikveh iz di gringste zach....
Announcing to the world that you oppose another group of jews makes you look all zealous and G-d fearing. It's so easy. Joe and the rest of these people are wading in a Mikveh full of yellow stuff feeling all warm.
HZ, this is not the 7FC site, please some decorum!
Joe, is it practices and theology of chabad, or fringe behavior and looniness(of the minority), that repels the litvack?
Tzemach
please. I've seen much worse on this site. But I apologize if I offended anybody.
"Joe, is it practices and theology of chabad, or fringe behavior and looniness(of the minority), that repels the litvack?"
Unfortunately, the fringe behavior and theology is not limited to the minority.
I also note that Tzig stays true to form in blaming the 'haters' with no awareness whatever that we would prefer not to be opposed to Chabad, that we would prefer to embrace Chabad as a part of the rest of Klal Yisroel, but cannot. Somehow it is OUR fault that Chabad has gone off the rails, and it is WE who should feel guilty for being turned off by the craziness. Enjoy the cocoon Tzig.
c'mon, Tzemach, HT is obviously refering to yellow flags.
OJoe, Lubavitchers have a keen awareness of how we are perceived, both in the secular press and society and in frum press and society. We are also aware of the fact that many of the things that we were previously condemned for are now actively pursued by general society.
It makes it very difficult for me to argue with a Meshichist about how the Rebbe himself wrote that he is destroying the effectiveness of the Baal Shem Tov and on, when he can turn around and say "But they opposed us on everything else too - they will come around to this as well!"
I understand this is in Israel, but from a non-Jewish small-town perspective, many non-Jews like seeing stuff like this. They see the Lubavitcher Rebbe's picture and some get a feeling of awe, and every Jew in a black hat and tzitzit they think is Matisyahu (or as cool as him).
OJoe
I live in Boro Park, not exactly a cocoon.
"from a non-Jewish small-town perspective"
right....
The cocoon is in your mind Tzig.
and your mind is as open as the Kansas Plains. Right.
Tzig, Let me know when you want to submit a response with some Toichen. Until then I will not respond to you.
Is this a new topic, or one that has been regurgitated an endless number of times? I'm tired of repeating the`same answers to the same Taynes. As if you don't know them.
OJoe,
I am not going to defend Chabad here, but the ... stuff that goes on in Ponovitz, Baltimore and a million other snag places is just as or even more disgusting as Chabad. Or let just say hard to compare. Yes there are a few snag places that learn Mussar but most just pay lip-service to it. There are individuals who are exception to this rule but movements or large school systems don't care about Mussar or Chassidus or any ideology matter of fact.
"OJoe,
I am not going to defend Chabad here, but the ... stuff that goes on in Ponovitz, Baltimore and a million other snag places is just as or even more disgusting as Chabad."
Not remotely. There is no widespread looniness institutionalized in those places. There are occasional goons and nuts acting out, but there is no institutionalized craziness on the scale which you find in Chabad. Not even close. Can you find me the website which promotes Baltimore style looniness? I can find 20 Chabad ones in 5 minutes.
"Yes there are a few snag places that learn Mussar but most just pay lip-service to it."
This is a ridiculous and completely baseless claim which shows you have no clue as to what goes on.
"or any ideology matter of fact."
Ridiculous.
This is more of the same Chabad self-congratulation mindset in which it's only Chabad who is actually acting and thinking Jewish. All those other Jews are drones and litvaks whose soul has been sucked out. To the Chabadsker all other Jews are mindless robots who have no hashkafos, no bren, no yirah, no hislaavus, no mussar... Its just another example of what I am talking about.
OJoe,
self-congratulation is very far from me and Chabad self-congratulation is even further. If someone is playing the ideologist here it's you. Prekär arbeiten, prekär leben - zusammen kämpfen!
Actually OJoe, your extremism in painting this picture weakens your case. There is a long way from believing that your way is best to believeing that no other way exists.
MY extremism???
Here I am being told that in Litvishe Yeshivos there is no derech HaChaim, no mussar, no 'ideology', and I am the one being extreme?!
This is not about whose way is best. Its about utter falsehood.
This is all big fat red shmaltz herring. This whole discussion is predicated on a claim that the opposition to Chabad is based on their unique devotion to Chassidus and Nistar. This claim is utter poppycock. Litvaks and 'snags' could not care less that there are people who live al pi Chassidus and Nistar. This is a self-serving lame excuse created to avoid introspection about the real problems which drive Chabad outside of the machane of the rest of frum Klal Yisroel.
Joe or OJoe, please do not change your nickname. This is highly discouraged here.
um, OJoe if they so didn't care how other Jews live and what they learn what was all that excommunication talk in Holy Vilna 200+ years ago?
Sorry TA, I was posting from another computer which had Joe punched in automatically...
Hirshel. I am not talking about Vilna. I am talking about now, today. I specifically said that when I pointed out that the opposition to Chabad has brown by leaps and bounds in the past 2-3 decades.
My whole point was that the original Hisnagdus based on issues of nistar vs. Nigleh no longer exist.
No one has accused Misnagdim, Litvishe, Olamishe or call them what you want of being extremely unspiritual. Mostly unspiritual, partially unspiritual, but not all the way. You made that up to emphasize your claims, thereby as I said weakening your point. Make your point based on the argument, not on how far you can take it.
Your last paragraph is so naive as to cause me to pity you more than anything else. If you truly believe there is no more argument of nistar vs nigleh you are a true innocent. Which is not bad in and of itself.
Guravitzer.
I was responding to this utterly ridiculous comment:
" I think one can sit in the yeshiva world for weeks without a serious discussion of man's role in this world and what G-D seeks here."
Even your comment that non-Chabadskers are "mostly unspiritual or partly unspiritual" is ludicrous.
As far as Hisnagdus based on Nistar. You just dont get it. You folks in Chabad are stuck in a chabad cocoon and seem to be entirely unaware of the fact that the Litvishe velt gets along just fine with virtually all forms of Chassidus. Chassidim who dress, learn, act, and live al pi nistar. Whose customs and hashkafos are significantly informed by the Zohar and other sifrei kabbalah. NO-ONE is misnaged to them other than perhaps 10 cranks somewhere. This battle is over and has died. Chabadskers believe it still exists simply to explain away how they got to be outside the machane of frum Klal Yisroel without having to face the real reasons why it happened.
BH
getting back to the subject of this post, "No-one goes near Chabad with a ten foot pole"
-- except when they're stuck or on vacation or their children are on their way to yeshiva/seminary in a country where Chabad is the only reliable source or only source of Yiddishkeit, and/or they need/want free or cheap lodging, food, travel agency services. Then we're kosher ve'yoshor.
on shlichus.
Good point. Even folks who oppose Chabad ideologically do enjoy the perks of chabads good work. This is only one of the reasons why this departure of Chabad from Klal Yisroel is so sad.
As far as anon's drive by - I am always struck by responses which amount to 'Nu-Uh' without any intelligent component. I note that virtually all responses to my comment were a version of "I know you are but what am I". Are there any Chabad folks out there willing to look these issues in the eye and talk about them frankly? I'd love to have a conversation with him.
On shlichus:
'No one goes near Chabad with a ten foot pole' was probably not meant literally.You are right that Lubavitch out of town is very welcoming of all Jews and many frum Jews who have little to do Chabad at home can be found in Lubavitch center out of town:However, it really proves that frum Jews are not inherently opposed to Lubavitch as much as alienated by the last two three decades of questionable and strange behaviour and highlited in the last 14 years with a large part of Lubavitch unable to accept the Rebbes passing.
Last but not least:Lubavitch out of town gets a lot of financial support from frum folks who would not be comfortable associating with Lubavitch at home:See the new mikva donated by a Satmar guy to Lubavitch in Beijing
The Satmar guy donated the Mikveh to atone for the Aveiros he does while "Intervegens." The Mikveh is quite appropriate....
It is only in the last decade or two that this phenomenon of available Chabad houses came to be, which is when you claim the hisnagdus arose.
Yankel,
Please dont speak about people, you do not know. This individual is a real Varimer Satmerer Chossid, and is real Yirei Shomayim. He BTW also donated the Lubavitcher Mikva in Budapest.
"Are there any Chabad folks out there willing to look these issues in the eye and talk about them frankly? I'd love to have a conversation with him."
Joe, which issue specifically do you refer to? That there are loonies amongst chabad? yeah we know. That at least a third of the population in CH or any other large Chabad community have messicanic undertones? yeah we know. That many people outside of Chabad relish highlighting the destructive actions of the drumbeating minority as apposed to the constructive activities of the 'silent majority'? yeah we know.
When you are ready to discuss Chabad, not what you want to perceive as Chabad, not what a dying sect of messianic heretics and nut jobs whsh Chabad was, but Chabad - what it is and what it stands for; what it's sainted leaders of righteous memory stood for, and what thousands of true adherents practice, live and strive to prefect every single moment of their waking hours, then perhaps you'll find plenty Chabad folks out there willing to look these issues in the eye and talk about them frankly [sic].
You have to be an idiot or have a serious agenda to think for a moment that those inside the movement are unaware of the problems and issues Chabad faces and will have to face in the future, and no, they don't need every samrt ass who once 'pressed a bentch' in ponovich or lakewood (as if their hardly impartial to begin with) to tell them how to go about rectifying them.
Frankly, the 'maztav kloli' of the 'frum world' at large is pathetic, and the spiritual bankruptcy which is rampant leaves much to be desired...anybody with half a noggin on his shoulders wouldn't pay too much credence to the popular opinion expressed by the hearsay, word-of-mouth informed mASSES about any issue of importance, Chabad included. Those within Chabad surly shouldn't, and probably don't piss in their direction, let alone care what they think.
When you're ready to drop your bandwagon propaganda and have a objective discussion if the issues i'm sure you'll find with whom to speak. Noone needs to hear another voice in the crowd regurgitate the hogwash he's been indoctrinated with from the cradle.
"And so tonight—to you, the great silent majority of my fellow Chassidim — I ask for your support."
Listen Mr. "He".
I wish we could sit back and talk about all the wonderful things about Chabad and its heritage. The problem is that those things are being destroyed by the gargantuan problems that Chabad has now.
Before we begin though, dont even bother with the 'small minority' bit. I have quite enough connections in Chabad to know that a significant majority are Meshichist, if only silently. Find me a minyan of Chabadskers to say "The Rebbe is dead and therefore is not Moshiach" and we'll farbreng together.
Whats worse is that there are VERY few who openly speak out against this mishugas and those who do are marginalized.
I am not at all, in any of my comments, referring to the Tzfatim nutjobs, or violent kooks. Those folks are not representative of Chabad any more than child molesters are representative of the general frum velt. We all have our kooks.
I am referring to other things such as rampant and basically universal meshichism. Communicating with a dead Rebbe (faxing, random pages of likkutei sichos, etc...). Praying to a dead Rebbe. A theology which holds Chabad to be the true yiddishkeit and all other versions to be 'Kefirah Bedakei HaDakus'. A self-centered ideology in which only Chabad Toirah is worth studying. In which the Chabad Rebbe is the 'Nosi Doreinu' of all Klal Yisroel regardless of what the rest of Klal Yisroel think of it. In which is is vital to compete with the existing frum institutions of a city, even if it undermines them in order to spread Chabad theology. A one in which people who are not Chabad are missing an essential element of their avodas Hashem.
And more important than all of the above, the ridiculous lying PR baloney about the 'small minority' doing these things and believing them. The fact that virtually NO prominent Chabadsker has spoken out against these behaviors and theology shows that it is universal, the only question is whether to be public about it or secretive. IOW, what is the definition of 'B'Oifen Hamiskabel'. This attitude that it is ok to lie to the rest of Klal Yisroel about what you truly believe and say behind closed doors is reminiscent of the approach of Scientology which only backfires when the people you are trying to fool know more than you think. I have examples, but this post is already too long.
My good friend, if Chabad would simply be all of the wonderful things you highlight, it would once again be beloved by the rest of Klal Yisroel and no longer on the periphery and michutz lamachaneh.
”Before we begin though, dont even bother with the 'small minority' bit. I have quite enough connections in Chabad to know that a significant majority are Meshichist, if only silently.”
Yeah, I also have a few connections within in chabad. They tell me that mesichisim is a dying breed, especially so amongst the youth. You don’t have to believe it but in reality numbers are irrelevant without growth and if there is one thing the meshichist movement is not doing, it’s growing.
Learn some history my friend, it’s not the first time the Jewish people at large, nor a specific sect in particular have been challenged from within by messianics, and as history has shown a little patience goes a long way in letting them die out on their own without bloodshed.
“ Find me a minyan of Chabadskers to say "The Rebbe is dead and therefore is not Moshiach" and we'll farbreng together.”
You’re not serious, are you? I have ten such people on my speed dial.
“Whats worse is that there are VERY few who openly speak out against this mishugas and those who do are marginalized.”
Is there any logical way to counter that? No. So I'll just say ‘you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about’?
We’re going in circles here. Do you really think that anybody needs your bright ideas of how to deal with Chabad’s problems? I think one would have to be a delusional fool or an outright lier to maintain that all is well within Chabad. All is well nowhere. That doesn't mean that the internal issues are as every tom dick and harry wish them to be, nor does that mean they are unnoticed or not being addressed.
You’ll maintain that meshichisim is universal; I’ll maintain you ignorant and partial. לא קרב זה אל וועט זיין כל הלילה.
You’ll bring all the usual arguments, talking to a dead rebbe, nosi hador, compition with all other frum organizations, blah blah blah, and I’ll tell you when you done oiling your propaganda machine I’ll stop talking to you like a PR agent. You’re beating a dead horse. These issues have been chewed swallowed and spit up again. But I’m hardly convinced you’re interested in an answer, nor would you acknowledge one if it ran you over.
I would love to discuss every single one of these issues with you one by one, but I not sure here’s the place.
”And more important than all of the above, the ridiculous lying PR baloney about the 'small minority' doing these things and believing them. The fact that virtually NO prominent Chabadsker has spoken out against these behaviors and theology shows that it is universal, the only question is whether to be public about it or secretive. IOW, what is the definition of 'B'Oifen Hamiskabel'. This attitude that it is ok to lie to the rest of Klal Yisroel about what you truly believe and say behind closed doors is reminiscent of the approach of Scientology which only backfires when the people you are trying to fool know more than you think. I have examples, but this post is already too long.”
I know from reliable sources that most Mir alumni are gay. The fact that no prominent Mirer has spoken out against homosexuality only shows that it’s universal, the only question being whether they proudly wave the rainbow flag or if they’re still in the closet. What disturbs me the most is the way they deceive Klal Yisroel...
Must I go on illustrating how pathetic your logic sounds? Never mind that it comes back to bite itself…
”My good friend, if Chabad would simply be all of the wonderful things you highlight, it would once again be beloved by the rest of Klal Yisroel and no longer on the periphery and michutz lamachaneh.”
As if they were ever beloved to the rest of Klal Yisroel, and and if that would a valid reason for them to recognize ther errors of their ways. ואולי י''ל דוקא להיפך…
I apologize for the lengthy post.
"once again be beloved by the rest of Klal Yisroel.."
When was that?
OJOE Wrote
I wish we could sit back and talk about all the wonderful things about Chabad and its heritage. The problem is that those things are being destroyed by the gargantuan problems that Chabad has now.
No one needs you to sit back and talk about wonderful things at Chabad, who do you think needs your stamp to continue doing the things of all the hole Rebbe's back to the Alter Rebbe and the Besht!
What are you talking about this as old as we can go back! how about when Schach called Chabadniks Goyim, do you know when that started and over what? when Aaron Kotler fought Chabad in Shanghai and six Lubavitchers died from starvation? When the Rebbe came out with Mivtzah Tefillin they all screamed in the litvisher velt (although today I see the Rosh Hakollel here puts on tefillin with guys in shorts and pony tails, a new thing) Every single thing the Rebbe did since he became Rebbe they critisized and railed against! It is pure Sina with new reasons found daily.
What did you say about davening to a Rebbe that passed away na dsending faxes? that proves my point even more! What happens every day in E"Y at the Kosel At Rashbi at the Ari At so many more? this is a basic tenet of yiddishkeit KALEV BEN YEFUNE went to daven at Kivrei tzadikkim! and the Torah bothers to hint it! and Rashi bothers to discuss it! why? does it bother you that you have no one to seek inspiration from because most of your leaders are corrupt? Vayaaminu Bahashem Uvmoshe Avdo! we say that every day! Every generation has an ispashtusa D'moshe! Is it our problem that you yourself know that your leaders are not fit to be nosi hador? well we revere the Rebbe because he is worthy of it! because he is the ONLY one in this past generation who really cared for every yid no matter who with out any motives! who wouldnt sleep at night because another yid had troubles! No one will deny that the Rebbe was the only address where people from all walks of life-Satmar Litvish Bobov Mizrachi Secular Russian Israeli-knew they could turn to where someone cared and would guide them. Go look at the Sunday dollars and see who came!You cant deny the facts or forget what happened.
and in general when you say Chabad is not part of klall yisroel who do you mean? Lakewood? Ponowitch? The Jewish and Frum community respects Chabad very much Al Apcha Val Chamoscha! I live in a community where all the Frume come to Chabad and seek Chabad programs, look at FL look at LA look at NY (five towns, manhhatan Boro Park (heichal Menachem) and so on) only a few bitter misnagdim berger and some others-a minority of frume- hate CHabad.
Even Berger in his book rails that the Orthodox community accepts Chabad, probably everyday you eat food that a Chabadnik gave a hechsher on! I could go on and on.
And yes there is NOTHING halachicly wrong if a chosid believes that his Rebbe is going to get up to techiyas Hameisim and be Moshiach-look at the Abarbanel, the Gemara and so on, even Reb Aaron Solovechik who was not a Lubavitcher said it was Halachicly permitted-as long as it is a Chosids personal hergesh he has every right to it and does not have to answer to you! that is the Majority of Chabad.
The Majority of Chabad are people who are Shomer Torah umitzvos Kalo Kvachamura, who are makpid on kashrus, Cholov Yisroel,(not like alot of litvishe I know who will eat Cholov akum for convenience! that is Halocho mamosh) Yirei Shomayim who are always helping others, who go to the hospitals to make a yid could hear Shofar, Bentsch Lulov and esrog, have a seder to go to, Chabdsker learn Chasiddus are misbonen, learn chitas Rambam and so on They LIVE with a chayus!
To some it up (as have to go) NO ONE NEEDS YOU TO ACCEPT US IN KLALL YISROEL (IN FACT YOU MIGHT NEED US TO ACCEPT YOU)NO ONE NEEDS YOUR PERMISSION TO GO DAVEN AT THE OHEL WHERE HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE SEE YESHUOS EVERYDAY, GO BACK TO YUOR HOLE IN PONOVITCH WHERE THEY DONT RESPECT THEIR SO CALLED LEADERS (WE WONT GET IN TO THE SHFICHAS DOMIM KIPSHUTO THAT TAKES PLACE THERE)
sTOP WITH YOUR SINAS CHINOM!
Sick of this Garbage, you spent all the time typing and could think of a better name?
that is the only comment you have on the whole post?
i said the truth, in the whole post!
Sick of this Garbage. here is my comment. I read till this point: "how about when Schach called Chabadniks Goyim."
This is not true, I will not read the rest of the "garbage".
To "sick"
Thank you for embodying precisely what I am talking about.
"They tell me that mesichisim is a dying breed"
Funny. They also said that the day the Rebbe died. So, are we seeing fewer Yechi Yarmulkas or more?
"You’re not serious, are you? I have ten such people on my speed dial."
I have yet to meet one. Not only that, I have yet to see such a comment published anywhere on any mainstream chabad publication or website. I have never heard one Chabad rov or mashpiah voice this or publish this anywhere. I would really love to see this somewhere. Can you post a Url for me or a link to a mainstream chabad publication which openly states that the Rebbe is dead, he is not moshiach and those who say so are wrong?
“Whats worse is that there are VERY few who openly speak out against this mishugas and those who do are marginalized.> Is there any logical way to counter that?
Yes, find someone who does.
"You’ll bring all the usual arguments, talking to a dead rebbe, nosi hador, compition with all other frum organizations, blah blah blah,"
As we see, you have no response. Nothing.
As far as people not speaking out. That is the PROOF that it is universal. Dont give me your silly Mir gay example. Its not like there are respected Mir roshei Yeshiva who go around openly gay and signing letters that every Jew must be gay and handing out rainbow flags. I assure you that if such a thing would go on you would hear a caophony of voices protesting and shrying. What you hear from chabad is crickets. There is virtually NO opposition to meshichism, and there is a torrent of open meshichism. There IS opposition to open and brash meshichism. But not to quiet meshichism. But open statements that say "why dont you all cut the bull already, he's dead and not moshiach so quit it"? Never.
"As if they were ever beloved to the rest of Klal Yisroel"
As I mentioned, in the 70s and 80s, the only people who kvetched about chabad were Ponovitchers. Regular litvish and chasidish got along with Chabad just fine and participate in their institutions. No longer.
Excuse me Tzemach! He called Chabadniks like goyim you cant drink wine they touched and you cant use thier Mikvahs, and worse. What do you know you were probably back in Russia in some farvorfene shtetl!
Besides, Tzemach you rail about Chabad not helping yoy, be embarassed! even after all your garbage there were shluchim who tried to help you with a shidduch who invited you to thier house many times even though you were ungrateful, oh and by the way how much time does Moshe Lieberman spend with you?
Stop complaining!
Talk about the Russians you are justa miserable pessimistic Russian who is jealous about other peoples success
To OJoe, you are very wrong that there is no opposition to Meshichism in Chabad. How can you be that misinformed. You really put all your jive in question.
To Garbage, I don't intend to go into a dialog with you. You have no knowledge of things you are talking about.
To "Ojoe"
Very good answer, you cant face the music. you blame everyone else for beating around the bush, well you dont even get near the bush.
To Tzemach,
I know excactly what I am talking about my parents entire family are Schachniks, my grandfather was Eliashiv's Chavrusa for many years and he was mesader kiddushin for all my uncles and aunts except my dad, I clearly remember the whole Saga, go do some research.
To Sick...Garbage!
After the long post, without any substance (typical of chabadskers fueled by alcohol),
Please cite me ONE writing by a public rov or mashpia in chabad stating that the Rebbe is not the Moshiach. (Rav Sofer right after 3 tammuz does NOT count, because he was marginalized right after and never again spoke out about the matter (therefore semi reaccepted)). There simply isn't ONE such public declaration in writing.
this conversation is pointless. This is beneath the level of discourse that I try to maintain. Please stop.
Tzemach, I am very proud of you. You are holding out well, without even being personal about it. Keep it up, even though for the first time I have been scanning certain comments and skipping them.
As I see this thread dwindling I note that this conversation ends pretty much the same very time.
The Chabad defenders cannot find one example of a mashpiah or prominent rov openly disputing the idea that the Rebbe is moshiach, but they insist that those who believe it are a minority.
More broadly, instead of addressing the issues raised, they revert to simply accusing the ones who bring these issues up as being 'haters', 'snags' or whatnot, essentially casting aspersions on the ones who bring up the issue rather than addressing them.
I have tried numerous times to get an honest and forthright discussion going about this with Chabad folks and it is almost always the same. It is sad because it means that Chabad will be further marginalized from the rest of Klal Yisroel.
Yoel Kahan openly disputes it. Published as well. Stop the self aggrandizing nonsense.
guravitzer,
Were does Yoel say that the Rebbe can't be moshiach? Moreover, who said that such a belief is a halachic imperative? Most importantly, who ever said that talmidim should proclaim " רני מת "? Quite the opposite, in this the other Jews should really emulate Lubavitch. Remember: כל מאן דאמר 'נח נפשיה דרבי' ידקר בחרב !
Meir and Ojoe,
I see you dont get it! i mentioned before that no one has to come out and say that the Rebbe is not Moshiach as it is not against Halacha! Look at the Abarbenel, the Gemara, in fact Rabbi Aaron Solovechik (a non lubavitcher Halachik authority) says it is not a problem halachicly, if this is someones personal belief it is fine as long as they dont make a campaign about it.
And to Meir thank you for the disparaging remark about being drunk, very mature way to have a conversation. However I think i addressed all the issues clearly obviously you both have nothing to answer.
His question was who says the Rebbe is not, not who says the Rebbe cannot be. No sane person actually, Lubavitcher or not, in a position of authority has taken the responsibility of saying the Rebbe cannot be.
guravitzer,
Being that moshiach still tarries, I don't see the difference between 'isn't' and 'can't' be.
Guravitzer,
A Yasher Koach for the explanation.
And btw, as you know, Rabbi Berel Levine did write a series of kuntreisim where he set out to prove that - according to the Rebbe's shitoh - the Rebbe can no longer be The Moshiach. So some people in position of authority did say this (for the record, the stuff he says there, especially the stretch about the midrosh, makes no sense to me). Anyways, it’s davka this sort of a declarative statement that our detractors claim they need to hear before they agree to stop hating us and go back to the pre-1994 days of wall-to-wall-Chabad-love-fest. Sounds like an incentive to me.
Rabbi Yoel Kahn openly disputes with those who say the Rebbe is not dead. He has not, to my knowledge, ever come out against Meshichism. I dont ask that you find someone who says that he cannot be the moshiach. Simply someone who opposes the idea that he is Moshiach.
I cant fathom how you expect people like me to believe that this belief is only held by a minority and dwindling, when not one single Chabad Rov or mashpiah has openly disputed it. Sure, there are those who dispute the idea that the rebbe isnt dead or dispute with te tactics used by the more vigorous meshichists, but none dispute the idea that the Rebbe is moshiach. If there is one you know of, let me know.
I know this is probably a stupid question, but why does it matter who Moshiach is?
"I dont ask that you find someone who says that he cannot be the moshiach. Simply someone who opposes the idea that he is Moshiach."
Great, please explain the difference between the two positions.
"Rabbi Yoel Kahn openly disputes with those who say the Rebbe is not dead."
Not true, he simply said that the fringe group that declares the Rebbe to be "alive in a physical body" are beyond the pale. He did not ever say "the Rebbe is dead". No real talmid / chossid / would EVER say that about their Rav / Rebbe.
"[Lubavitch] would once again be beloved by the rest of Klal Yisroel and no longer [In our opinion] on the periphery and michutz lamachaneh."
Could someone please explain or justify entertaining the comments of a zahr such as this who is capable of making as assinine a statement as this? Rather than add to the debate he keeps it mired in a hopeless cesspool of ignorance surrounded with the promise of some unwanted and illusory acceptance. Who needs to pursue this hopeless line of discussion? Why are you letting a prattling liar set the terms of the debate?
Once again, Truman drops in to confirm my original thesis. Dont like the discussion? No problem. Call the other guy a 'hater' and 'snag' or the like. Poof, no more problems. Funny how that works.
"No real talmid / chossid / would EVER say that about their Rav / Rebbe."
Oh, stop being childish and picking on semantics. In Judaism we do refer to people as dead you know.
Vayamas Sham Moshe
Nach Nafshei D'Rav
Yes, yes, I know 'Yaacov Avinu Lo Mes', etc...etc... And as any intelligent Jew will tell you, this doesnt mean that every Rebbe/Rov/Rosh Hayeshiva has yet to reach the olam HaEmes or does not need Hesped or Aveilus. It means that their hashpaah is still here. So yes, the Rebbe died. He is dead. As is Rabbi Akiva, Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi, the Arizal, etc... And their hashpaah is still here. Any intelligent talmid/chossid DOES refer to their Rebbe/Rov as dead, but knows what it means. Only silly people do not refer to dead people as dead.
Ojoe,
You apparently stirred up a bee hives here, but if it makes you happy I will say it publicly that I don't believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach, unfortunately he passed away, yadayada. I will let HaShem decide who Moshiach is, but it would be nice and quite time already for Him to pick his candidate. And I am probably not the only one with these beliefs.
K. T.
What OJ wants is a public known person, (choshuve anonymous members of mentalblog moronland does not count) to state his belief that the Rebbe is not Moshiach now and that there is no source that identifies him to be the moshiach and become the moshiach.
Besides: R. Sofer and R. SB levine there is not. Nothing past 5757 has been publicly stated. The reason is: a) majority do beleive strongly like the meshichistin, 2) with an intensity, that stating contrary to their belief will marginalize the proponent (as the did with R Sofer and R Levine).
Abarbanel etc. do not advocate proposing a particular candidate of the deceased to be the meshiach. Identfying someone in particular with a certainty has no source whatsoever and goes counter to the ways Rambam (the only halachik possek in these issues) codifies the process of such identification.
Kushen,
I admire your honesty and willingness to state this. I am curious what response you get when you tell this to your Chabad colleagues.
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