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Bark!

$\"Gravatar\"$ Yup. That's pretty much what I and others said over at BlastFurnace in response to his screed about the cowardice of the other passengers.

http://blastfurnacecanada.blogsp...ve-come-to.html

Stopping a psychotic homicidal assailant like that is like facing down a tsunami; the appropriate reaction is to help others (and oneself) escape to safety.
deBeauxOs | Homepage | 08.02.08 - 6:13 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ People didn't even have the whole story yet, and they're blaming the passengers who did the right thing by getting the hell off that bus. Listen to this shit from this link http://www.citynews.ca/news/news...ews_25353.aspx:

\"Others were critical of the already traumatized passengers who watched the incident unfold. \"37 people didn't have anything to throw at him? 37 people couldn't have over powered one guy with a knife?\" an outraged poster asks. \"Isn't this the same mentality that allowed 2 or 3 idiots with box cutters to take out the Twin Towers?\"

\"No handguns allowed in Canada, we know. But no woman had a purse to bonk him on the head?\" another queries. \"No one bothered to throw a can of diet Coke at the guy's head? Who was on the bus? The Old Ladies' Home and Gardening Society?\"

And still a third called Canadians \"panzies\" (sic) for not doing anything to stop it.\"

Yeah, douchebag, I'll just throw my purse or maybe an apple at his head while he's busy disemboweling a guy. Great idea. That would have stopped him cold I'm sure.
Dr. Prole | Homepage | 08.02.08 - 7:54 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ God, I'm sick of this keyboard Rambo crap. It all began with Mark Steyn belittling the young men who were ordered out of a room at gunpoint by Marc Lepine at the Ecole Polytechnique. Now every time we read of one of these horrific crimes, we get armchair boneheads grunting about the girly-men who let this happen, and things would have been diffrunt if somebuddy wuz carryin' a six-shooter, and our kulcher is gittin' feminized, blah, blah, fricken blah.

The event in question was over almost as soon as it began. The guy kept slashing at a corpse. People helped each other get off the bus safely. Then the driver disabled the bus, and a posse armed with tire-irons and whatnot kept the killer confined in the bus until the RCMP showed up.

Good grief, this was a textbook example of calm under fire. Next time I hope we can put two or three of the hyper-macho computer warriors between the crazed killer and the normal people. I'd pay to watch that, but I think it would be a fairly brief piece of entertainment.
Dr.Dawg | Homepage | 08.02.08 - 8:02 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Let's not forget also that it was a night trip and a bus is a confined space. There's no easy way to intervene in a situation like this. By comparison, when the Knoxville shootings happened a few days ago, some of the members of the congregation did intervene and stop the shooter, because it was broad daylight and the sanctuary was an open space where people could move. It all depends on circumstances.
Chet Scoville | Homepage | 08.02.08 - 8:18 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Chet - don't forget, those people in the Knoxville church who stopped the shooter were - gasp! UNARMED PANZY ASS LIBERALS!!!

Mark Steyn would pee his pants if someone pointed a gun at him, I'm quite certain. So would all the armchair commandos who are bleating about the bus full of pussies or whatever they're calling those poor traumatized people.
Dr. Prole | Homepage | 08.02.08 - 8:26 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ deBeauxOs - Yeah, BF was one of the ones I saw, though by no means the first or only one.

As much as everyone would like to think they'd intervene, most people would shit their pants and run -- it's instinct, unless you're a cop or a soldier and you're trained to overcome that instinct. It's amazing that they were able to stay calm enough to get out in an organized fashion without anyone else getting hurt, just in the escape.
JJ | Homepage | 08.02.08 - 8:36 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Dr. Prole - Those kinds of comments make me want to puke. Hit the guy over the head with a purse? Throw a can of coke at him?? Right! And get disemboweled for your trouble. People are idiots!!!

There was apparently one passenger who was an ex-serviceman, and being unarmed, even he took off. So someone who's trained to deal with life-threatening situations even saw there was no percentage in hanging around.

But it's easy to say you could do better, from the safe confines of your computer desk.
JJ | Homepage | 08.02.08 - 8:55 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Dr. Dawg - You are so right. Keyboard Commandos like Steyn, who's probably never faced greater danger than cutting himself shaving, are always so sure they could do better. That I'd like to see! Most of them wouldn't have even made it out of the bus, they'd be curled up in a fetal position in their seats, crying and shitting themselves uncontrollably.

I was amazed at the calm and organization the passengers (and driver) were able to maintain. This situation could have easily erupted into even more of a bloodbath if someone approached the killer. I think by the time anyone knew what was going on, that poor kid was past help -- anyone approaching the psycho would have been the next victim.

But that won't stop the Keyboard Commandos from beaking off! It's another opportunity for them to talk tough -- do they even know how ridiculous they sound?
JJ | Homepage | 08.02.08 - 9:05 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Chet - You're right, and that's just another reason why approaching the killer would have been the wrong thing to do. Trying to stop him in that confined space, in the dark yet, would have been impossible without sustaining more casualties.

It reminded me of a story I heard about the 9/11 highjackers -- some of them took martial arts courses and specifically requested training for fighting in a confined space. It's not something that just any old street fighter can do, and probably most of the bus passengers weren't even street fighters.

The Knoxville murders at least took place in a space where there was at least a chance of jumping the guy, so those people were able to intervene. I can't see how the people on the bus could have done the same thing in their situation.
JJ | Homepage | 08.02.08 - 9:22 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Dr. Prole - \"Mark Steyn would pee his pants if someone pointed a gun at him,\"

Pee? $\"\"$ He'd shit himself dry.
JJ | Homepage | 08.02.08 - 9:24 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ It's not as if he announced his intentions. That poor boy was dead (or mortally wounded) before anyone was even aware anything had happened, and long before even a trained-but-off-duty SWAT team member could react.

I can't blame shocked and horrified civilians for not intervening to save the life of someone already dead.

In addition, it was a frigging BUS. One narrow aisle. At most two people could possible intervene (one from behind and one from in back), with no way to co-ordinate their efforts.
RealityBites | 08.02.08 - 10:19 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ I agree with this post 100% JJ. It is pissing me off so much, what people are saying about what the passengers should or should not have done. You would think everyone would have some basic understanding of the concept of walking a mile in someone else's shoes.

It makes me think of that story (which I will shorten so as not to torture everyone) where the woman's husband works at night so she takes a ferry over to an island and sleeps with her lover. One night she doesn't have the money to get on the return ferry, so she begs her lover for money, but he won't give her any. So she begs the ferryman to let her go across, but he won't let her go for free. So she ends up having to take the highway around. While she's walking the highway, a man overpowers her, rapes her and kills her.

The question is, whose fault is it? The husband's, for working nights and not keeping an eye on his woman? The lover, for being cheap? The ferryman, for not letting her ride for free? Or the woman's for getting herself in that situation?

Obviously, none. It's the man's fault for raping and killing her.

Similarly here, the only person to blame for this young man's death is the guy that killed him. Anyone trying to point fingers in any other direction needs a reality check...or maybe a refresher logic course.

Sorry to be so long-winded. $\"\"$
pedgehog | Homepage | 08.02.08 - 11:17 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Then there is the 21 foot rule and the fact that many people think it should be lengthened...

A quick reminder/briefing: there is serious research that says that if a police officer confronts someone with a knife and they are within 21 feet they should have their gun out and ready to shoot them, because someone with even limited experience with a knife can close that distance in seconds...

A bus is roughly 40 feet.
Cameron | 08.02.08 - 2:19 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ RB - \"It's not as if he announced his intentions. That poor boy was dead (or mortally wounded) before anyone was even aware\"

Certainly - the first few stabs were in the throat and chest -- and with a hunting knife, not a steak knife -- so the killer was slashing away at a dead body by the time everyone started waking up to what was going on. $\"\"$

The confined space made it that much worse -- plus the killer & victim were in the back seat, in the corner, nothing behind them but a wall, so it would be almost impossible to launch an effective attack on someone in that position. Down a narrow aisle, over other seats -- how do you even get any momentum?

Just impossible. They did the best they could in an impossible situation.

But that's not stopping the Keyboard Commandos from saying they could have stopped the killer if they'd been there -- throw a blanket on him! Pull his hoodie over his head! (Seriously, I've read both of those.)

Did you see that idiot Boisson at FD? He's pretty sure he could have straightened things out. Because he's a bad MF. $\"\"$
JJ | Homepage | 08.02.08 - 4:45 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ pedgehog - Be as long winded as you want, that's what the combox is for. Sound off!

Interesting analogy there, and it does show how perverse people get when things like this happen. More people are talking about how the passengers are to blame than talking about the psycho killer who did the murder! Unbelievable.

But events like this bring out the Tough Guy in people who've never faced anything more dangerous than a hang nail. I get the distinct feeling that the reason they protesteth so much is because deep down they know they'd be lying in helpless little piles of quivering jello in the same situation.
JJ | Homepage | 08.02.08 - 4:50 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Cameron - Exactly, and that's the rule for cops -- trained, armed cops.

So your average person, unarmed, untrained, shocked and half-asleep, in a dark, confined space -- what are their chances of taking down a vicious psychotic killer with what sounds like a gigantic knife? Zero. That guy would have kept slashing at anyone who tried to get near him. (In fact he was trying to slash at the guys who were guarding the door and keeping him on the bus.)

But, hey, if only Mark Steyn had been on the bus, he would have come out with the killer's head in his hand. Yeah! Let's roll!
JJ | Homepage | 08.02.08 - 5:00 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ if only Mark Steyn had been on the bus, he would have come out with the killer's head in his hand.

Since, according to Right Girl, Steyn is an 'Alpha Male' (*snort*) he would have come out with the killer's head in his teeth.

Sort of like my Jack Russell over there in the upper right hand corner. $\"\"$
Dr. Frink | Homepage | 08.02.08 - 6:17 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Also, with regard to the Knoxville shooter, church members were able to rush him when he paused to re-load his shotgun. There would have been a lot more people killed had he been armed with a semi or automatic weapon.
deBeauxOs | Homepage | 08.02.08 - 7:44 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Dr. Frink - I can picture that $\"\"$ These hotshot mouthpieces all remind me of my ex-brother in law. He was constantly telling \"tough-guy\" stories from when he was a fisherman up in Haidagwai, stuff like \"so I jumps into the water with my buck knife between my teeth and cut that killer whale up like a loaf of bread\" etc etc etc. (Meanwhile everyone's rolling their eyes, going \"Yes, Larry, sure Larry, wow, that's incredible, Larry\".)

Except with these wingnuts, it's not stories about what they did, it's stories about what they would do.
JJ | Homepage | 08.02.08 - 9:03 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ deBeauxOs - Good point. As awful as Knoxville was, they had a lot more going for them than the people in the bus. Chet did an excellent post today comparing the two situations, and why people were able to intervene in one but not the other.
It's here.
JJ | Homepage | 08.02.08 - 9:07 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ I think this reminds us of the need for us all to carry weapons of mass destruction at all times. And we should be able to preemptively use them whenever we suspect someone else is about to use theirs.

I think that would work rather well.
Raphael Alexander | Homepage | 08.02.08 - 9:29 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ My ex has black belts in 3 different disciplines along with some other, shall we say, interesting specialized training. When I started taking kickboxing, he took it upon himself to teach me several different defence moves that I was never going to learn in the average class.

And the first thing he taught me? If you feel threatened and you have the chance, get away. Self-defence is something to be used only when you have no choice and is often worse than useless against someone who is armed.

The people on that bus did the only thing they could in a horrific situation and absolutely minimized the loss of life in the process. Anyone who says differently is a delusional ass clown.
LuLu | Homepage | 08.03.08 - 7:19 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Lulu, my kemp teacher taught us the first move of self defense on our first day of white belt class: the wallet draw.

As in \"oh, you want my wallet? Here you go.\"

I can get nice new cards, I can \"suffer\" through a night at a police station filling out reports, I don't get to call a company and get a new life, for me or my wife or my son.
Cameron | 08.04.08 - 8:17 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ RA - Absolutely. There's always room for a little weapons-grade plutonium in every woman's purse.

Are we pussies? NO!!!
JJ | Homepage | 08.04.08 - 9:53 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ LuLu - That seems to be the conventional wisdom according to everything I've heard about the subject, from those trained in martial arts to first responders. First rule of dealing with someone armed: get outta the way.

Ironically, all the commentary about this thing really shows who actually knows what they're talking about and who's full of shit. Anyone who thinks this guy could have been disarmed by a few well-executed karate holds is talking out of their ass. Anyone who thinks he could have been neutralized by having a blanket thrown over him or some such BS -- oh, please! $\"\"$ Fantasy land.
JJ | Homepage | 08.04.08 - 10:21 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Cameron - Absolutely right. The best option is always to get away with a minimum of damage to yourself or anyone else, and this is emphasized repeatedly in martial arts training.
JJ | Homepage | 08.04.08 - 10:27 am | #

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