I agree vjack. They have to prove it is reasonable that their god exists and they haven't proven a single thing for a God being out there. These religions are of course just books of fiction passed on down the line in each of the different areas. And they put us atheists (and agnostics) down for not believing their crap or for when we go with Science and logic proof, or for even when we show the damage religion is causing. Your religion is hurting society (we aren't by wanting accurate religions or none of these phony religions forced onto us, and with you even telling us we aren't good or we'll go to your fictitious hell if we don't go along with your immoral silly fictitious faith) and so we have a right to rebel to the obvious harm it is causing and to the mistruths... Oh, and the first thing any religious person will try to do to prove or defend their religion is to say how can we all be here and with the things as complex as genetic cell makeup etc., if their (say the Christian god) God is not true. It's like either answer that question to their liking or this is proof what is in their Christian bible is the only logical answer and truth. There are no other correct answers to define why we are here. Yes, it must be our God who created things just like as it is stated in our bibles. And do these brinwashed or dumb ones ever think something could have started this billions of years ago and then just left forever without all that other obvious manufactured crap in those books? Do these people ever consider that writers (and governments, etc.)made almost everything up to try to define how we came into existence and/or to try to force certain behaviors they deem appropriate onto the peoples?...
And they bring up how can we have the moral guidance what is incorrect like murder, abortion, etc.. without some God (God's conscience and getting involved), and through his wants and words. This is the more proof (wow they have lots of great proof right?)they have that their God exists. Yes, a God had to put this out there for people to have a moral conscience or we wouldn't know what is right and wrong. Simple answers to that: Why would I listen to anything the Hitler and then fake loving God states in that one bible? Are we all guided by everything he says there (we all seem to know the very wrong things taught in that book and we don't follow those things taught do we, and many just pretend the really bad isn't even there)? And what proof do you have that a God is needed for we people to seem to know what is right and wrong? Those who wrote the bibles etc. were just ordinary people who surely created what they thought were right and wrong for the morals (they knew somewhat the obvious rights and wrongs but they surely missed in other areas) on their own in the name of some fictitious God, and we atheists all the time here know what is right and what isn't by common sense and being rational and good, not going based on what we read in the religious books (I certainly have never went by any books, but by my own conscience and by reasonable law), so we humans today can surely define our own direction and morals better than those clueless writers who were either delusional like Robertson and/or who all had some of that other agenda to force (like the religious here do). I sense we all (maybe other Third World nations don't though) would agree on the major bad things like murder, rape, incest, and for the good parts the being kind to others, being compassionate, selfless, giving, helping those in need, etc. without religion stating it, and without us needing to turn into bad ones by the religion creating the bad parts as the hate, self-righteousness, discrimination and intolerance at the same time to go with the good, etc.- Yes, I surely know people (I have some faith in people when religion doesn't come into play to delude and force other unnatural inborn directions through the fear of some fictitious higher being- people wouldn't kill their own and hate like that if it were not for religion- most animals don't even) would each tend to do more what seems truly right (and it is truly more loving and right than what is taught in those books when you considering everything) on their own without these made-up religions forcing an immoral, hateful, and very intolerant course, mixed in with the good taught.)...
One more thing Vjack: We already know for a fact that all of the religions (I think I read there were over 25 different religious books) can't at the same time be right. That means at least all but one are of course fiction (the religious even deny the God(s) of all those those other religions so they are pretty hypocritical in the hating us when we don't accept their faith, as we atheists just deny one extra religion than they do), unless their book doesn't state only one God or their religion says there are many Gods (how believable is that?). Of course it's logical to even assume the other remaining one is likely even fiction too since the other religions (authors) made up similar claims as being the only literal religious truth about some God (without even any proof, rationality, Science, common sense and/or logic used). I don't even have to read any of the other books since I know they are all made up by people. I surely have no reason to even believe any God would talk to someone billions of years later (Oh, I forgot he now talks to Robertson- funny) from when the planets and living things started to evolve, for a book to be written about how animals or humans came into existence, and for what is wrong or right for how people are to behave. Why wait billions of years for this? Well nothing is sound so I shouldn't even bring anything like this up. NOthing in the bible is rational. IT's filled with absurdities, contradiction, outright lies, etc. The religious have to prove their God exists and their book proves nothing but it being fiction.
I have experienced the feeling of sitting next to Jesus. I have heard an audible voice respond to my prayers and questions to God on 3 occasions. I am 39 years old.
Seems like if you deny the existance of God, especially the Triune God, you have foolishly cut yourself off from experiencing the delight and joy of the miracles that happen in our lives. You must believe in coincidence--which when you add up all the coincidences a year--amount to some really amazing coincidences. You honestly believe that (play fill in the blank here applying your own life events and experiences) this happened and then that happened and then this happened but if that had not happened, then this would not have happened and you would not be where you are right now/would not know such-and-such or have such-and-such a job/spouse/whatever. The endless circles we live in, the endless links that bring us together or keep us apart--they are all only coincidence?
And wars are less about religion and more about power and land. Religion is usually only an excuse to make the masses swallow the reason. Israel is not exactly a "religious" state. Israel is one of the more secular states out there. It isn't about Jews living there--it is about wanting to control that strip of land on the coast of the Mediteranean next to Egypt and Lebanon and the Red Sea and being mad that some people moved in there with more guns and made others move out in the modern day. Fools have allowed themselves to be used in the name of religion, but in the same way that rape is more about power and terror and control than about sex, war is more about power, control, and land than it is about religion.
Laura said, "I have experienced the feeling of sitting next to Jesus. I have heard an audible voice respond to my prayers and questions to God on 3 occasions."
I don't doubt that you had these experiences. The problem is whether these were not just in your head. Once while medidating several years ago I felt the presence of two dark figures on either side of me. Gave me goosebumps. I had to open my eyes to check if I was still alone! Were there really such invisible "spirits" of sorts beside me? Or did the medidation cause my brain to whip up the "mirage"? We know auditory and visual hallucinations, delusions exist. There is no evidence that deities are real. You'd have to rule out the workings of the brain first, before claiming that these experiences are evidence of the supernatural. Personally, I put my money on the simpler explanation.
As for coincidences, just remember to also take into account the bad things and "neutral" things that happen. As they say, count the hits and the misses. And needless to say, not all things that happen to us are coincidences. We do act in the world and work toward what we want to happen.
I think the first prong is pretty much unassailable. Even St. Thomas Aquinas ranked faith below knowledge since the former doesn't possess rational justification--necessary for something to be called knowledge.
Vis-a-vis claims, there needs to be some method by which we can test them objectively. And that's what religion fails to deliver. A large number of theological claims can't be tested. Dan Dennett goes as far as saying that all religions have made it such that various claims of theirs cannot be confirmed/disconfirmed (they're untestable/nonfalsifiable):
"The postulation of invisible, undetectable effects that are systematically immune to confirmation and disconfirmation is so common in religions that such effects are sometimes taken as definitive. No religion lacks them, and anything that lacks them is not really a religion, however much it is like a religion in other regards." (Breaking the Spell, Viking, 2006, p.164)
And even with such seemingly testable claims as "prayer is efficacious," theists will wriggle out of disconfirmation by introducing ad hoc rationalizations--as they did when the results of the Benson study came out last year.
It seems to me that traditional theological beliefs are born out of wishful thinking and fantasy. And when confuting evidence surfaces believers switch over to rationalization mode (or denial mode in the case of creationists) in response to the cognitive dissonance.
Aren't we such an amazing species?
I like your definition of faith. It is very similar to one I have arrived at:
Faith is believing to a degree of certainty which exceeds that warranted by the available evidence.
I also like to point out that faith is generally regarded by the religious as a virtue, but nobody seems to ask why believing something to a degree of certainty which exceeds what is warranted by the available evidence is -- in general, or in specific instances -- a good idea, or why it might be something which should be considered a virtue. It is generally just asserted that it is a virtue, or conversely, asserted that doubting or being uncertain in the absence of sufficient evidence is somehow a failing.
SteveC, *thank you*
It's been bothering me more and more lately how the "faithful" are revered so much more than the curious, inquisitive, doubtful, skeptical, contemplative, etc.
I agree with Dennis above, and need to point out it's not a matter of, say me in my case, trying to undermine anyones faith. I'll leave them alone if they leave me alone, but the bible thumpers won't do that. I have had normally nice people bombard me to point out MY supposed moral failings for not believing in their prefered sky-god/avatar. When I request rational evidence to their stated "facts", OR I don't roll over and immediately agree, OR point out that many of their dictates make NO reasoned sense, per them, "I'm the one harrassing them". They also hate it, (or it scares them), that I have developed strong moral opinions without the fear of "going to hell" as a guiding force.
I have experienced the feeling of sitting next to Jesus. I have heard an audible voice respond to my prayers and questions to God on 3 occasions. I am 39 years old.
Laura, Next time you talk to Jesus will you ask him why he remains silent to the cries of small abused and sickly children who beg god to help them. Some believe they must have done something very bad for god not to answer their cries. Every minute, innocent children are suffering and dying all over the planet. Human intervention can help some of them, but there are so many.
Seems like if you deny the existance of God, especially the Triune God, you have foolishly cut yourself off from experiencing the delight and joy of the miracles that happen in our lives.
Since walking away from religion and doing away with the god beliefs, my life has been much, much better than before because I don't have that negativity of religion in my life telling me I am bad when I am not bad, or that I am being rewarded by some supernatural sky daddy for simply believing he exists.
My fundamentalist relatives live and breathe for Jesus, and their children are ill with serious problems, they have had money problems, they have had all kinds of things happen to them. A friend of mine who is a "devout" believer gave birth to a baby with no brain in its head. Just fluid. It died a short time after birth. What kind of "miracle" is that for a god to peform for one is his faithful? Good things and bad things happen to people whether they believe in the existence of a god or not.
If you truly believe in miracles do you go to the doctor when you get sick or does jesus make a house call? (sorry for my sarcasm, but this is where I see major doubt in xians.)
Xians go directly to human doctors when they are injured or ill, and do not trust their god whole-heartedly to heal them like their holy book says he will do. (They make up that god created doctors that god uses to heal people...how convenient not to have to trust your "inerrant" book.) It seems to me that xians do a good lip service for jeebus just to keep that heavenly ticket insurance going, but in reality they ultimately put their trust in humanity to help them, comfort them, and is only through their own efforts and the efforts of other humans that produces any positive results.
I'll leave them alone if they leave me alone, but the bible thumpers won't do that.
Rocky - I agree. I don't go to xian blogs, I don't start discussions with xian friends and relatives, but they bombard my email box with religious forwards and messages even though I have asked them not to. And you are right about them saying you are harrassing them after you question them when they have approached you first. They get flustered when they can't answer and then their persecution complex kicks in.
My Baptist niece sent me one too many emails/letters proseltyzing for her god and I asked her recently as politely as I could not to send me that stuff anymore and I got a two-page nasty email from her pastor wannabe (he's now a youth pastor) husband to never try to communicate with them again. They have cut themselves off from most of the family who they deem to be "heathens"...even the Lutherans and Catholic members of the family (which includes my parents.) It's sad. It's like they are in a cult.
I related to all the points above except for one. And it's only the faith in some loving tooth fairy that could give these people some peace; it's nothing any fictitious tooth fairy does of course to help. Pretty arrogant to think the tooth fairy is looking after special you. Yes look at all the suffering out there, even in those poor religious countries (the Philippines is 90% Catholic). Look at what the Pope went through. All the faith in the world didn't or doesn't truly help these people right? Oh I forgot. God wanted these people to suffer right? And he wanted others to see the Pope's suffering and humble grace. You religious are so brainwashed from seeing reality from truth. Yes these ones will put their spin on anything. I feel sorry for them from being so deluded.. And yes the religion is of course responsible for lots of the past and present wars. Does Laura deny this? We know all about the Muslims intentions. We know about the Christian wars in the past. And do you think Bush and his conservatives don't go to wars to force that Christian faith and values onto others? Just listen to his words and hate directed towards people of other faiths or those with none. His domestic and foreign policy is guided by the stupid faith of his..
"fantasy from truth"... Well Vjack and fellow atheists/agnostics, I guess I'm starting to lose faith that things will likely ever change in people from some of these types of religious posts I always read. It's almost like all of these ones are in some hypnotic trance, and they just put their head in the sand. And well our society is all messed up because of these people. I don't even want to think of them..
Andrea is right about how the perception that faith is a virtue is annoying. I think this makes a good target because there are no other spheres of life where faith would be considered virtuous. Can you imagine a counselor at a battered woman's shelter saying, "I think you should go home and just have faith that he won't hit you again?" In all other spheres, we recognize faith as irrational, delusional, or even dangerous.
There is alot going on in this post & the subsequent discussion, but this is what struck me in regards to the irrationality of faith.The function of thought is to promote understanding. For understanding to be possible, we must have some method of assessing the veracity of various claims. This method is reason. In my long association with the religion of Christianity, i have found that reason & also facts, are not considered to be as important as theology. In fact, reason & real historical & scientfic fact are set aside for theology, they are considered secondary to theology. I gather that theology is supposed to be the study of religious truth. But, is it?
ltart, I'd say that theology is the study of religious dogma, not any kind of truth. After all, each religion has its own theology.
Of course! That makes perfect sense.
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