Hmm...It smacks, on the surface, of Phelpsishness. The difference would really have to be in the tone of the picket. As much as I, personally, might like it, it would be folly to have signs with slogans like "God is a motherfucker" or something equally inflammatory. The protest would have to be peaceful and as reasoned as humanly possible, and when interviewed by the media, all the people involved would have to be able to give cogent, rational explanations for their derision of Christian extremism.
Otherwise it'll just be a PR nightmare.
Well, Christians don't usually picket atheist institutions because there really are none. But if there was some grievous act of anti-atheist bigotry, then yes picketing would be a good idea. Other groups, such as women's rights groups, have never picketed churches before even though they should have. It might inspire them to do so. Churches have always been off-limits to picketing even if they are the source where all the bigotry foments. It fits in with the New Atheist idea that religion is just like anything else and shouldn't be treated with any deference.
Personally, especially with election season, I think atheists should be volunteering their time to sit through church services and take careful notes. These notes should be published in a public place and hopefully given over to law enforcement agencies who may threaten to finally revoke these institutions' tax exempt status.
I went to a church a few weeks ago where the preacher criticized Obama for saying that Leviticus has absolutely nothing to contribute to public policy. The preacher said he completely disagreed with Obama... and went on to preach about the importance of burnt offering... it was the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Their whole church is full of gay bashing bigots, to the point where they devote a whole sermon to discuss burnt offerings. Because burnt offerings are SO important to Christians and so crucial to public policy. The guy should have kept his trap shut and never mentioned Obama.
Interesting idea. I will spend the rest of the day coming up with clever phrases for my picket sign.
"I will spend the rest of the day coming up with clever phrases for my picket sign."
"it would be folly to have signs with slogans like "God is a motherfucker"
I'm intrigued by the idea. But I thiknk these two writer are pointing to a pretty big dilemma.
The hard part of being an atheist is soundbyting the complex nature of critical thinking.
Its easy for phelps. "God Hates Fags" is almost written in the OT. Even NT christians have simplistic signs like "Jesus loves everyone, including the unborn" Or some such stuff.
How do you put anything compelling about why we think what we think. "God is dead" will simply be ignored like I ignore the phelpsian signs.
As an example, there was that atheist group leader (forgot her name) who put up a 'knowledge tree' during christmas time. She was ridiculed, pandered and given poor press. She just was made to look annoying (and she was) rather than allowing any sort of a rational statement to come through.
However, if as bbk said, we have a specific qualm, you know like ministers preaching a vote, or hate speech. Then yeah, your idea might be good. You may even get religious people involved.
As a general idea, I don't think it's a good idea. Now targeting some specific act by a specific church, then you might want to consider it.
Anything we might do in terms of organized activism will be looked at by many as extreme, or just as a nuisance. All the more reason to do it, I say.
No really. BBK is right to compare this scenario with other groups--any group that has had to transform itself into a coherent social organization in order to acquire rights that had been denied them. This isn't anything new and this dissent is truly a large part of the fabric of our society.
If we started picketing, we would get press--bad and neutral. The only good press would likely come from our own sources. And that's fine. One can't imagine that any other oppressed social group had to deal with anything different as they took those first steps towards equality.
The key really is in its organization and coordination. It's picketing, it's legislation pushing, it's letter and article writing. It's saturating all forms of media and action so that each supports the other. To do any one thing without the others would be doomed to failure.
Also, the question of whether we should or shouldn't be more vocal, to me, is moot. Atheists seem to be waiting for everyone to agree. It's swell that we're so concerned about the opinions of all atheists, but as rational beings, we have to know that ever coming to a happy conclusion that all atheists want is a bit silly. It's not possible. And that's fine too. I see an overwhelming want/need of enough atheists to warrant an organized push for change. And we would be absolutely no different than any other group that's come before us--every one of them had members of their social group who were against the change, some even actively fought against it and actually joined the opposing side. What you do is you push through that, fight them like you would fight the oppressing group, and by fits and starts, you slowly make change.
So, yes, I am for picketing extremist churches. It clearly couldn't just be thrown together willy-nilly. I would suggest it be organized not by any small group or groups, but by a large national rep. It should be carefully chosen, focused, and, like I said, supported by supplementary activism.
I would hope that by doing that, we could eventually, over time, build up enough clout in our cause to picket any ol' church for the sake of reason. 
For me it would depend on the rationale. Merely picketing the local crazies to show off how rational & enlightened I & my cronies think we are, would only play in to common stereotypes of atheists as arrogant & fanatical haters of religion. Picketing in such a way would likely generate sympathy for the crazy church.
On the other hand, if the picketing was done in such a way to isolate and maybe even stigmatize the local crazy church, then sure, I'd be right there.
Depends on what the goal is, to be perfectly honest. I am not sure picketing is where Atheism will win its battles, though it would encourage others to come out and join the fight. A well-formed lobby on Capitol Hill would probably have more effect to protect education and science. Though, a joint lobby with a liberal Christian Church (or at least one of the many who accept evolution) would probably work to our benefit to protect something like evolution and science in schools. It would also negate the whole "anti-religion" stereotypes that many people have of atheists with a partnership to find common ground. I know there are plenty more issues than just science, but I think a "reason"able approach to the battle would produce better results than emotional approaches. I like this topic btw.
I think picketing a church is problematic. It may be hard to convince the public that the church in question is deserving of picketing, and not just an example of militant atheists lashing out at any example of religion.
Better, I think, to target activities or actions on the part of a religious extremist organization. This might come in the form of counter-picketing - say when some religious group is protesting outside a medical clinic, or gathering in support of religiously-motivated political action, etc.
I think the churches should be picketed but not from an Atheist vs. Christian viewpoint. They should be picketed for their views and actions. If someone asks the group who they are everyone should answer that they are "Just concerned citizens, that want to rid the world of hate, bigotry and religious extremism." This way you might just be able to get your message across. If you were to picket them as Atheists then it wont matter if you're right or not, the people that you want to listen will automatically shut out your view and stand strong with the extremists in the church.
If the point of picketing is primarily to raise awareness and spark discussions, surely there are other ways which would provide a more thoughtful, respectable appearance than a picket line. I do think that discussions like this about modes of activism are important, especially as more and more Christian preachers and authors are doing us a publicizing favor by acknowledging "new atheism" as a movement to be rebutted.
Picketing extremist churches? hmmm...To my mind they're ALL extremist. There is not much point in picketing religious institutions, rather, it makes more sense to protest their activities or urge people to ignore their "work" and protest their societal influence. Religion will never disappear as long as humans are gullible (so never). Americans should take a lesson from Europeans and their Canadian cousins. In those cultures religious politicians are treated with derision, public displays of religious observance are not tolerated,religion is a private matter, and I have no problem with that. As a result polling shows that religious observance is much less in Europe and Canada. When I watch American TV, I can understand why American atheists feel besieged. Your protests should be directed at the media - all media. They make religion seem "normal".
Some thoughts on picketing churches.
Ultimately, it is a good idea. The atheist community needs to do less talking and more acting. The goal should be to create news stories that reach outside of the atheist community and delivers a message to outsiders. Our isolated talking among ourselves is not doing any real good.
(1) One should not picket a church. One should picket a person. This is a matter of holding people presonally responsible for their words and actions. Of course, the best way to picket an extremist church leader is at his or her church.
By association, picketing a person (a church leader) also makes a statement of condemnation that targets anybody who agrees with that leader on the matter under contention. However, at the same time, it excludes those who do not agree with the leader. So, it better targets the guilty and leaves the innocent alone.
It also presents an avenue for change. The church can stay together, but change its leadership (and, thus, its teaching). It provides people with an avenue for preserving many of the benefits that they find in the church, and removing those parts that need to be removed.
(2) People should picket the church because of the specific things said and on behalf of the victims of his or her way of thinking. That is to say, the picketers should be seeking to make a moral statement and of condemning the church leader for their immorality. The protest should be made in moral terms.
(3) Though organized by atheists, the protest should not be limited to atheists. It should be open to anybody who disagrees with the statements that one is protesting - even where they come from another religious perspective. Atheist participation and organization should be open and explicit - there should be no hiding of the fact that atheists are involved. But the focus, in this type of case, should be firmly fixed on what you are trying to stop or end - on why it should be ended - and on a willingness to work with others who do agree on that point.
An exclusive philosophy simply invites those who are excluded to side with the enemy - who, to be certain, will be a lot less reluctant to seek alliances and to use the force of greater numbers (and greater power, and louder voice) against the protesters.
You make some really great points...just because they are religions doesn't mean we have to silence our free speech and never criticize them.
One thing I have always despised about most religious people is the fact that they feel the need to force their views on me. Why then should I want to be a part of something that is trying to force my non religious views on someone else?
I think all it would do is to get more negative attention aimed towards atheists. I'm tired of people looking at me like I'm the devil incarnate.Like I have no reason not to take out a gun and shoot people since I can't possibly have any sense of right or wrong.
We should all have a right to believe as we wish but we do not have a right to force our beliefs on others. Picketing would simply be bad light shed on an issue that has enough bad spotlights aimed in its direction. Why not try something that would shine a positive light on atheists? Do some sort of charity fund raiser show that we do know right and wrong that we have hearts and we care about our fellow man? That to me makes much more sense then picket lines outside of a church.
Picketing does have that kind of "rule by thuggery" taste that one generally wishes to stay away from.
I believe that it might be more constructive to form some kind of alliance with religious types to picket a specific practice that might be objectionable to the community as a whole.
For example, standing outside a church with signs stating "Your god is a fairy tale" really isn't going to accomplish anything.
On the other hand gathering together with like minded theist to picket for "reform" of some kind might prove more useful. Possibly "let priests marry" or "homosexuals are people too" or "the earth REALLY IS 5 billion years old".
One has to choose the battles carefully.
If you did it should be one of the really crazy churches that have been doing very immoral things, and it shouldn't be just atheists but an alliance of reasonable people. You wouldn't want to run the risk of it looking like you are interfering with other peoples right to worship.
That's pretty radical thinking, vjack. Yet I find myself excited by the prospect.
The good thing about a picket or general protest is minimal prep for the participants. Organizers have to do a lot, but the others just have to show up. Lobbying, letter writing, etc. is work. Most people don't like extra work.
A rally, on the other hand, designed to showcase the positivity of freethought with a smattering of protests against actual issues, while taking a great deal of participation, organization and cooperation from the general public, would serve the same purpose as a picket and be harder to spin negative. And if it happens to be scheduled across from a church on a Sunday, whoops.
Who's up for getting the ball rolling, though? That's the biggest problem. Who wants to take point and get hit the hardest? Who needs that kind of crap when one can just turn on the computer and bitch? I'm not exempting myself from any of the above, BTW. I just don't know what to do about it.
How about picketing churches with signs that say "Stop Picketing Our Secular Government Institutions And Keep Your Prayer Where It Belongs"?
Maybe we should picket the picketers? http://www.magicvalley.com/artic...tate/
140601.txt
They come across as petty and small. I seriously doubt that anyone outside their group takes them seriously.
Athiest need to be taken seriously.
I don't know that I like the idea of picketing churches. They aren't forcing me to join, so I don't care. I'd rather focus on things like court houses with the Ten Commandments, or schools where atheists are discriminated against. By picketing these places we'd be fighting to uphold the constitution. By picketing churches we're just complaining that we don't like them.
Switch "Christianity" for "Scientology" and you've exactly described the Anonymous protests. I think they are a good model to go on -- they do get a lot of press, most of which is positive.
Now, when you attack the majority cult rather than a fringe cult, you'll meet a harsher response. But IMHO it's a positive step forward.
Excellent question!
I have to agree with bbk, Ron, IsThatLatin, et.al.
It has to be based on a specific event and preferably aimed at (a) specific person(s). A Rosa Park's moment, if you will.
Also, I think BBK is on target about being careful with election year politics. We only have two candidates to chose from, do we want to risk a blowback that could hurt the more separation minded of the two?
With due consideration to the above, I am certainly not opposed.
IMO I think it would be much more beneficial to team up with moderate to liberal christians to battle against the bad things the extremists of all religions do. I don't think in the end picketing churches would do anything to further our cause.
We could team up with them and picket the court houses of the trials of pedophile priests maybe, or Warren Jeffs trial.
Poodles,
Interesting point, but do you think it will work yet?
Historically, in order to get members of the majority to fully join a minority cause, they had to have had the support of other members of the majority and have spoken out on their own.
As of yet, I have not seen a vocal outcry from the liberal religious community against anti-atheist bigotry.
Until I do, I remain skeptical that such a coalition can be formed.
I cannot speak directly to the following; I just read about it online:
A Portland, OR atheist group, United States Atheists, picketed a Promise Keepers gathering at Autzen Stadium (University of Oregon in Eugene) back in 1998. Their signs were fairly confrontational: God Says To Beat Your Children With A Rod, Your God Believes That The Earth Is Flat, Eat Dung, Drink Piss, etc. I don't know if they've held an event like it recently, but you might get their take on it: www.unitedstatesatheists.com.
There was much ado after the event when their newsletter editor wrote a column questioning the tactics and tone of the picketers (he did not take part in the picket), and how the groups were perceived by the public, and how they were presented in the local media. This resulted in a falling out between the editor and the group, so it would be worth seeing his take on it also.
Original article here: http://www.positiveatheism.org/c...crt/
cliff89.htm
Follow up here: http://www.positiveatheism.org/m...ail/
eml9954.htm
At any rate, I think picketing extremist churches is a fine idea. The critical element, related to the Oregon event I mentioned, is making it clear what is being picketed; is it the church, its members, religion at large, or the extremism? And I certainly think joining together with moderate and liberal believers would send and even stronger message about fundamentalism and extremism.
I wish that we could, but it would backfire. Should we go door to door like religions do, no way. I fear that we would be doing something that "we" say "they" do-be annoying. Do I wish that we could do something like that and be effective and be herd, sure, you bet I do. I don't feel that protesting is the thing to do, but i have been wrong many times. Thanxs V.
Kriss
Anonymous has been successful with this kind of thing and it hasn't come off in a negative way. I think if atheists were going to picket, that would be a good example to follow.
Instead of picketing them I believe the solution for getting our message across would be to create something that THEIR "extremists" would picket. That would constitute success.
I must confess that as an Atheist in my 70th year, I have never been able to attend an Atheist social gathering that wasn't a "bitch session", certainly not anything to which I could bring my children or my grandchildren. Is it any wonder that we are perceived as a "fringe" element when, while we can point to a few intellectuals in our midst, we can't seem to organize a picnic.
I think it much better for Atheists to turn out enmass, wearing the same t-shirt/ slogan doing positive things in a community.
Do this repeatedly and/or in conjunction with liberal christian/islamic groups.
You want to paint the picture of a cohesive group:
Soup kitchens, tree plantings cleenups.
Sean the Blogonaut:
I totally agree. Atheists have to be seen doing some good, healthy things in the community. Some of us have children and grandchildren.
Come to think of it, wouldn't it be a good idea for Atheists to picket some Atheist gatherings? I certainly don't agree with many of the rantings of our "extreme" elements and I certainly wouldn't want them around my kids because many of them are just as bad as the Christian extremists.
We want them to clean the "skeletons" out of their closets. I have not witnessed an attempt to clean some of our Atheist "skeletons" out of our closet. For example, have I been missing something when it came to our handling of the "Madalyn" legacy? All Atheists aren't nice guys but we are so focused on the "other guys" that we don't clean our own house.
I've been designing a new kite (about 6 feet tall) with a design based on the FFRF billboard "Imagine No Religion". I was thinking of useing that and going round to churches.
Hmmm, I like the idea, but could see it going horribly wrong.
With the best of intentions you could organise something like this and end up with a few more hardcore atheists (or even fake-atheists trying to give us a bad name), with posters like, "God sucks" or whatever. Keeping it clean might be hard. You can guess which ones would appear on the news.
I think it would be far better to focus on a particular issue that might gain some sympathy with the public at large. Standing up to some bigoted immoral idea that the extreme church is preaching could work. Something to make ordinary people say, "Hey, those atheists are right about that, at least..."
As fun as it sounds, it would indeed backfire. These people thrive on the feeling of victimhood, and this would only help that notion along.
What an excellent comment thread! You all have given me so much to think about here, which is exactly what I was hoping for from this post. I think my sign would say "Christian extremism is still extremism."
I tend to agree that picketing an extremist church would be mainly a PR tactic, at least initially. In addition, those who stressed the importance of coordination, numbers, and articulate spokespeople are absolutely correct. I'm not sure I agree with the notion that the picket would have to be in direct response to something specific the church did. It would seem enough to me that they were regularly preaching hate in the community.
Well, a suitable cause for picketing would be
Matthew 22:15-21
17 Tell us, then, what you think. Is it lawful to pay taxes to the emperor, or not?"
18 But Jesus, aware of their malice, said, "Why are you putting me to the test, you hypocrites?
19 Show me the coin used for the tax." And they brought him a denarius.
20 Then he said to them, "Whose head is this, and whose title?"
21 They answered, "The emperor's." Then he said to them, "Give therefore to the emperor the things that are the emperor's, and to God the things that are God's."
Perhaps picketing the extremist church as atheists is too narrow. Is it Christianity we're objecting to, or extremism? It seems we'd have some natural allies if we, as atheists, picketed alongside moderate theists, against the extremist church.
Also, that gives a direction in terms of the message, speaking to media, signage, perhaps some leaflets... What would be the goal? Probably to oppose extremism and divisiveness, to fight for the inclusive society that tolerates our differences and calls out the agents of intolerance and division for their actions.
(Yes, I know - tolerance of all but intolerance, which could almost get sticky if we're not prepared to show how logical it is.)
I think that if you were to picket as atheists, you'd probably get a serious backlash, even here in sunny Southern Ontario.
Unless you were to protest specific actions: a particularly bigoted sermon or publc statement against atheists, exclusionary charities or something, then you'd just get people angry, especially where you live, vjack. Protesting with a local Pride (or another group that is hated, but most other prejudices are religious) organization might help defuse the very damaging perception as another purveyor of hate.
But I think ultimately, no matter how loathsome "extremist" churches are, you'd only come off as even worse, simply because they have their faith, and they have a right to it.
I agree with IsThatLatin about consensus building. It's easy to demand absolute consensus when one believes in inaction. If there are enough atheists who wish to picket a church, then there's nothing that anyone else will be able to do to stop it, backlash or not. So what would happen if there was a backlash? Would some atheists side with the theists and condemn the protesters? I believe so. Personally, I'd rather be out there protesting than to be the one sitting at home deciding whose side I wanted to pick.
Speaking as a former born-again fundie I think that any “anti-theism” is counter productive. It plays right into their hands and stokes their persecution complex. I am convinced the only effective tool to counter faith is to out ourselves as non-believers and live exemplary lives. Let yourself be a living refutation of the lies they hear from the pulpit every week. Show that you are good and decent person, kind to strangers, generous, and honest. Prove to them that you don’t need religion to be a good person.
picketing sounds good but targeting is key phelps would be a good target and a sign saying god is a bad aim cause i am the atheist would be better than a lotta other things on a sign but who is pickey phelps wouldn't be able to handle a counter protest from atheists sying we love the solders who fight for our freedom from religion neither would anyone who has ever heard about the atheist solder who quit the nfl and died for this free country
I like the picketing idea. I'd join in. I think there should be a picket in front of the creationism museum in Kentucky. That conglomeration of idiocy is certainly worthy of a non-stop protest.
Sean the Blogonaut has the best idea:
"I think it much better for Atheists to turn out enmass, wearing the same t-shirt/ slogan doing positive things in a community."
This approach has the best chance of winning over more people. Plus it would have a direct positive impact on the community.
I really don't care what the general public would think about atheists picketing a church. What I care about is what other atheists would think about it. It's got a lot of potential. Seriously, nobody wants to put on corny tshirts and pick up garbage off the streets. That's such a cop out.
You know what really plays into the Christian's hands? The idea that atheists are going to win the hearts and minds of theists by being the Good Samaritan. The subtext of the parable is that even those non-believers who exhibit superior moral values will go to hell. It's just stupid. I'm not here to live my life proving to Christians that I'm a good person. You know what a good person would do? They would fight to free people from the grips of superstitions. They would fight to bring the rest of the world into the 21st century.
This would not change anything its true it would draw attention to the atheist cause but those who choose to believe in a religion are not going to be swayed by a picket line.
Ryan, and you think getting together in groups and picking up garbage off the street would?
A strong atheist base is what would convince a lot of theists to de-convert. Do you really believe that people have a fear of reason? It's not that. They have a fear of stigma, they have a fear of being in the outside group. The longer that atheists keep going without asserting themselves, the longer that this is going to be the case. If they see that atheists are *not* afraid to question religion, question faith, then they will be more willing to question it themselves. If they see that atheists are people who stand up for their rights and stand up for each other, then they will be more likely to join.
Hey bbk, we agree that the world would be better if less people were religious. We agree that faith is a bad idea and we should do what we can to show people this. I’m just saying that outright anti-theism like picketing will drive the faithful further into their comfort zone and be counter productive. So hop off that high horse every now and then and take a look around. I’m “fighting” just as hard as you to “free people from the grips of superstitions… and bring the rest of the world into the 21st century.” I’m just saying that picketing and the like will have the exact opposite effect.
My point about living an out of the closet life as a good and decent person isn’t about heaven or hell or any of the other stuff you seem to have assumed. It's about removing the stigma of what an atheist is. It’s to show them that we are already their friends and neighbors and we are happy, well-adjusted people.
Personally I think going around calling people stupid and saying their most deeply-held beliefs are just superstitions (even if they are) is not the way to get them to listen to what you have to say.
No bbk I don't believe that picking up garbage will convince people to leave religion I'm simply saying that the people who attend church choose to believe what they do and seeing people standing outside chanting and holding signs is not going to convince them to change their beliefs.
bbk:
If you combine "stigma" with "kids" you may understand that a functioning Atheist society should be able to provide "kids" with "pride"! Or are we employing the very same "brain washing" techniques on our kids for which we accuse "extreme Christians" of doing by individually "controlling" our kids. I have been tuning in on these debates for several years now and have yet to witness an Atheist concern for "kids" or "old people".
This is akin to an argument over "what kind of food is being served at the banquet" going on so long that no one takes notice that the guests are "starving" to death.
In this case, Atheist parents may finally wake up to the fact that their kids would rather be part of a religious group because at least it satisifies their social needs.
P.S.
And . . . the kids maitian their loyalty, more out of habit than thinking about substance. Isn't that what a "meme" is . . .?
Good point, anton. It's not just about getting theists to question the beliefs that they consider unassailable. It's not just about sticking up for other atheists. It's also about raising our own children in an environment where they don't have to feel like their families are social rejects who let everybody else step on their throats.
Picketing should be done against the tax evasion issue not against theism per se.
I would like to see people dressed as Sant the tooth fairy etc with signs like...I believe in Santa, Why do I have to pay taxes.
Given the interest this subject has generated, I will do a follow-up post later this week.
Just saw this post. I think this is a great idea!
But one thing: Instead of a direct protest, why not have an 'atheist meeting' of sorts right outside of the church? People would see that instead of one man droning on to a bunch of robots, an atheist meeting would likely have heated discussion and debate.
I would love to organize something like this in Michigan..I'd just need some help doing it.
A group of friends picketed a church in this area. They would do "lockins" where the church would tell their members to bring anyone gay to come and "convert" them to nongay, without telling them this was the purpose of them being trapped in the church overnight with a (friend?) and strangers.
The police were not happy about the picketing of it, in fact they openly supported the anti-gay sentiment.
Want to bring real damage to the church without having to worry about the legal implications of public protest? Find a college age guy or gal studying to enter the ministry, befriend them, begin to date them, and then sleep with them. The moral failure on their part will likely derail them from further service to the church. You may have to go "undercover" for some time, acting like a Christian and carrying a Bible, but the long term results of having one less pastor of missionary are worth it.
Let me preface this by saying that I am a Christian and regular church-goer. However, I would agree that Christian Extremism is a very large problem.
As to picketing churches, it depends. I certainly would not be in favor of picketing churches because they are, in fact, churches. But I could get behind picketing churches who make a habit out of picketing and protesting causes themselves. Especially if they protest confrontationally and inappropriately (God Hates Fags, Abortionists Burn, etc).
As you mentioned, the most important thing to consider is the tremendous amount of backlash you would receive.
Christian extremists are into victimhood big time, so picketing would play right into their hands.
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