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Brainwashed is the only explanation of why women would go against their nature and then end up embittered and lonely when men do not respond to them as women. So many have bought into the accomplished superwoman expectations of a twisted society that they simply don't even know how to be a real woman - a woman that a man would die to protect. Truly sad. They are more victims than anything else.
Taylor | 01.10.06 - 4:40 am | #

It's a funny thing about us; we know who likes us and most of us have no use for spendin' any time around those who don't, much less a lifetime. Women with unrealistic expectations of us (a large percentage of professional women) may be attracted to us physically, but are not comfortable or interested in our tendency to monopolize domestic decision making.
JACIII | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 5:05 am | #

VD, your 30-something female interlocutor has at least grasped something of the truth about the tremendous mountain of lies that have been generated by Diva Friedan and the rest of the sisterhood over the past several decades. As one who has had to repent of decades of believing in lies myself, all I can say is that this is the hopefully the start of a journey towards genuine freedom for her.
Carolus | 01.10.06 - 5:05 am | #

Vox's Deprogramming School for Women

There may be an untapped market here. Many women, like that doctor, who haven't a clue on how to be the woman that men want and are at the end of their rope - realizing that the Cosmo articles just aren't cutting it - would sign up. I have an idea that you could give them quite a few lessons on how to regain their feminine side and become the woman that men are looking for. Besides making a ton of money, you might enjoy it.
Taylor | 01.10.06 - 5:29 am | #

In the following, I am specifically speaking of eros, not phileo, or agape...

Love is not scientific. It is NOT a method. It cannot be taught, or even learned. Love comes, when it comes, and it goes, when it goes. It cannot be manufactured or fabricated. True love is a mystery.

In and after commitment, loves comes and goes as well. In commitment, when love appears to fleet and whither, then it must be fought for as a knight battles a dragon for his life and the life of the damsel. Why? Because it is a commitment!!!
Dread | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 6:03 am | #

Men don’t give a rip about a women’s resume when they are looking for a wife. Imagine that.

Ladies we’d rather have a pleasant women who wants to make us happy than a wife with a great career. Chick flicks aren't reality. We don’t care about your job. We are men. We’re not Burger King. You can’t have it all, your way and on your terms.
Res Ipsa | 01.10.06 - 6:07 am | #

Agreed Res...

I don't care as much about her job/career as I am for her intellectual capacity to keep pace with me in satisfying conversation along with proper pace and volumes of fine beers, spirits, and a good cigar...

That's the kind of woman I dream of. The best kind of woman, is one that will surpass your best male buddy of old. You just enjoy hanging out together. You can talk together about anything from the absurdities of Britney and Paris to the marvelous wonder and mystery of Iapetus. She is truly "bones of my bones," and "flesh or my flesh."

Girls, you want to watch a REAL "chick flick?" Watch "The Bridges of Toko-Ri" with William Holden and Grace Kelley. You want to know how REAL men think and feel about REAL women, then watch it and learn. That's REAL life folks...
Dread | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 6:35 am | #

Watch "The Bridges of Toko-Ri" with William Holden and Grace Kelley

That is a good one. Not a chick flick, but still loved William Holden in Stalag 17. Enjoy it every time I catch it on TV. Not much for chick flicks. Also loved The Great Escape. Excellent, entertaining movies of man doing manly things...ooh, that's more to my liking.
Taylor | 01.10.06 - 6:44 am | #

As have all other decent and noble sentiments of bygone days when people were expected to at the very least try to act like the human beings that God intended for us to be.

Sad, but very, very true these present days -- Taylor...
Dread | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 6:56 am | #

Ms. Dr. Banshee shrieks, "the Bachelor was like every other f*@#&ing male doctor she's ever known." (In fact, every other word was bleeped at that point)

That says it all. This female doctor THINKS she is wise, but she is a fool. Any person who would spew vulgarities to millions of viewers has no class, no self-esteem, no emotional control, and no vision.

Any sensible man will see these attributes from a mile away and get the heck outta the way.

So many feminazis have these traits (including many who post here) and they wonder why oh why...
Somboed | 01.10.06 - 7:48 am | #

Dread - I highly doubt any woman can truly take the place of that lifelong buddy, but I think you generally correct. When Vox and I were dating one of the things that helped us to know we were right for each other was our ability to just hang out and read, talk or just sit in comfortable silence.
Spacebunny | 01.10.06 - 7:58 am | #

Res - Glad to see you survived the weekend!
Spacebunny | 01.10.06 - 7:59 am | #

I feel genuine saddness for the lawyer who wrote to you Vox. She sounds as though the light came on for her, and yet the odds are she will not find a guy that would be proper marriage material. Futhermore, she now has to face that reality alone, she was afraid to post it on her on blog because her parents might see it? Did they push her into pursuing the career path? My guess is that she is a nice person who bought into a wicked idealogy when she was younger and will pay the price in her older years.
farmer Tom | 01.10.06 - 7:59 am | #

Some of the best advice for discovering compatability I ever got:
Take a week long road trip and see if you make it. Not a vacation but a road trip. Things go wrong on road trips just like life, then you have to adapt and make the best.
Mutly | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 8:06 am | #

I saw it, and immediately thought of this blog. The most amazing part was that she expected that having the same career as him (and a demanding one at that) would be a good thing. The guy has probably met a thousand female doctors, and you think he came on the show to find another one?

Most men already have a career, and don't need another one as baggage. Women are rarely bringing anything to the table by selling their career achievements, and too often simply revealing that their focus is in the wrong place. Guys are looking for what we don't already have: a loving relationship.
Hoots | 01.10.06 - 8:07 am | #

...one of the things that helped us to know we were right for each other was our ability to just hang out and read, talk or just sit in comfortable silence.
Spacebunny

I once told Mrs IM:
"When I'm with you, it's like I'm all by myself."
My intended meaning was what you have expressed, but the way it came out continues to be a source of hilarity to this day.
Inquiring Minds | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 8:10 am | #

Actually, I wrote this e-mail to Vox and I am 51. My advanced age is probably why I felt compassion for this poor girl.

And--I am old enough to have regrets rather than anger.
Sue Bob | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 8:24 am | #

I see women like this everyday at work. Pretty, hardworking, spunky/bitchy personalities, 30+ and utterly vapid. They are simply sluts with expensive shoes.
aLutheran | 01.10.06 - 8:29 am | #

to the lady lawyer. find a compatible church and put the matter of a compatible husband into the Lord's hands. you screwed up big time and this is next to hopless without Him. 'is nothing to hard for the Lord?' next is there a repeat of the show?
cruft | 01.10.06 - 8:34 am | #

I highly doubt any woman can truly take the place of that lifelong buddy

Your prolly right here outside of the "ideal" sense. In the proper context of my actual "lifelong buddy" going on 30 years, my hope is that she would far, far exceed that buddy, and more be the opposite of him. ;-) (he's a bit unique) For a person who claims a 160 IQ and photographic memory, this guy does NOT READ! I mean, I could never discuss Dante's "Inferno" with him...

or just sit in comfortable silence.

Now, that's a REAL sign of true compatability...
Dread | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 8:48 am | #

In and after commitment, loves comes and goes as well. In commitment, when love appears to fleet and whither, then it must be fought for as a knight battles a dragon for his life and the life of the damsel. Why? Because it is a commitment!

Yeah, right. Those sentiments have gone the way of the knight and dragon. As have all other decent and noble sentiments of bygone days when people were expected to at the very least try to act like the human beings that God intended for us to be.

No, they haven't.

These may be qualities that are not reflected in today's crass culture, but they live on nonetheless. The reason they are more rare than they used to be is that women no longer cultivate that behavior in their sons; even worse, they don't cultivate the expectation of those qualities in their daughters.

Feminism (of the radical egalitarian type - for kim) has been an utter disaster for Western civilization, but even more than that it's been a personal tragedy for many women and even more who will never know what they are missing.

My wife and I were walking through a department store the other day and I was struck by the sheer immodesty of our culture. A walk through the lingerie department tells as much about the low expectation of women for themselves as it does for the low regard men have for them.

Eve has once again bought into the serpent's lie.
hoosiertoo | 01.10.06 - 8:53 am | #

In the following, I am specifically speaking of eros, not phileo, or agape...

"Love is not scientific. It is NOT a method. It cannot be taught, or even learned. Love comes, when it comes, and it goes, when it goes. It cannot be manufactured or fabricated. True love is a mystery.

In and after commitment, loves comes and goes as well. In commitment, when love appears to fleet and whither, then it must be fought for as a knight battles a dragon for his life and the life of the damsel. Why? Because it is a commitment!!!
Dread | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 6:03 am | #"

I would modify this to say that lust and infatuation are fleeting, but love (committed servitude with no strings) never fails. And yes, you can teach others how to do this. It happens most naturally when two committed parents teach their kids how to have great marriages simply by the parents creating their own great marriage for the kids to watch.

But it is work.

When someone says, "I just don't love them anymore!" you can say, "Why did you stop?"

Love (the commited serving kind) is a choice.
BS | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 8:57 am | #

Forgot to read this:

"In the following, I am specifically speaking of eros, not phileo, or agape..." - Dread

That's why it had no quotes around it.

I probably could've just said, "Yup. Eros is fleeting" and that would've been better...

:o)
BS | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 8:59 am | #

hang out and read, talk or just sit in comfortable silence.

The women I know where this is 'natural' are the ones not interested in a relationship. It's the ones who revel in drama who seek the relationship.
Salt | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 9:02 am | #

So many have bought into the accomplished superwoman expectations of a twisted society that they simply don't even know how to be a real woman - a woman that a man would die to protect.

If there are "real women," then there must be "fake women." Are you refering to post-op trannies, or something?
MikeWC | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 9:10 am | #

I heard the miffed doctor's comments on the radio this morning, driving to work. She also had the obligatory 'He's just afraid of strong women' quote in there. It was like it was right on cue. Very very predictable. I think the next time I hear any woman say something like this in person, I will laugh out loud. Maybe even point...
Rainman | 01.10.06 - 9:11 am | #

Chick flicks aren't reality

REALITY shows aren't REALITY.
kim | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 9:16 am | #

"REALITY shows aren't REALITY."

Ain't that the truth... ;)
Mutly | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 9:26 am | #

Evidently not, judging by the womans comments about the show.

It's just stupid. Honestly.

I wouldnt really want to marry someone in my own profession. Especially if we were both doctors. We'd never be home. What would be the point?

And who the hell wants to date ANYONE that talks about their eggs/sperm getting old on the first freaking date? I dunno about anyone else...but desperation and biological clock ticking doesn't say romance to me.
kim | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 9:36 am | #

Allie told him that she was ready to reproduce because her eggs were getting old.

What Allie fails to grasp is that she may reproduce anytime she pleases.

Just get pregnant and whamo -

It's the husband / 'would-be father' part she does not understand.

And since she is a successful career woman, why the husband anyway? She can afford the daycare / nanny. All she needs is an anonymous donor.

Come on Allie, be that modern career woman. Show us what you got.
Salt | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 9:37 am | #

Mr. Dread:

Well put!

On another note: In a recent thread, just down the page, someone asks where were Kim, Renee, etc. Well, Kim is still here. I suspect that the 'Renee' persona is either back at class at University, if she is real, or, more likely, the persona generator for this entity has lost interest or the time to maintain the construct.
Jack | 01.10.06 - 9:47 am | #

Women --

Read the book of Ruth.

(It'll probably take more than once...)
Mark Call | 01.10.06 - 9:55 am | #

Chick flicks aren't reality

REALITY shows aren't REALITY.
kim | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 9:16 am | #

I'll agree there. Now Myth busters is a good reality show.
ZT | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 10:03 am | #

"I dunno about anyone else...but desperation and biological clock ticking doesn't say romance to me -- Kim

Ayyyyy-men. Preach it, Kim.
(No sarcasm, here. EXCELLENT point, and true.)
Dadoovark | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 10:10 am | #

ZT - I LOVE that show!

Mike - real women instead of shemales.
Spacebunny | 01.10.06 - 10:13 am | #

"And who the hell wants to date ANYONE that talks about their eggs/sperm getting old on the first freaking date? I dunno about anyone else...but desperation and biological clock ticking doesn't say romance to me."

Pretty much sums up what I was going to say. Guys don't want to think that far ahead. We will only take things in this order: romance, love, marriage, kids. You don't talk about step 4 when you haven't finished step 1.
.
.
the shizzle dizzle | 01.10.06 - 10:24 am | #

This psycho doc is a retard. Now she can't even say "I was on TV" for fear that someone might have seen it, remember her and run from her at full speed!
Michael Maier | 01.10.06 - 10:37 am | #

Ms. Dr. Banshee shrieks, "the Bachelor was like every other f*@#&ing male doctor she's ever known."
...and yet she thought this one would be different? "As a dog returns to his vomit, so a fool to his folly"

He one the other hand had probably been down that road before and wisely ran from past follys.
Mark in OC | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 10:41 am | #

In the real world, there are limitations and consquences based on the choices you make. Not enough women do an honest cost/benefit analysis before embarking on a 'career'.

A woman with a $100K education who spend her early 20s struggling through grad school to land that high paying dream job will be obligated to work into her mid 30's to pay off the debt. Ooops, the clock is ticking, now its time to pop out a few kiddies.

You do the math. If she stays at home; the $100K education is a financial wash (at best).

You can understand the financial incentive to make all that college pay off. Unless you make a full time career out of it; there's really not much economic justification for it.

This is pretty close to the situation Mrs. PORCUS and I are in.

Thanks to some signing bonuses and an unexpected inheritance; she's passed the financial 'breakeven' point. The financial pressure is off and she can consider cutting back to one or two days/week (mainly just to keep a foot in the door and have access to the benefits).

If she weren't in the medical field; there wouldn't be nearly so many opportunities for occasional or part-time work. It would be an all-or-nothing situation.

Unfortunately, most women don't consider this when they are getting an MBA from Ivy U. or a marketing degree. There are no part-time management positions in the corporate world.

Making the high-powered education pay off can take years...maybe longer than your biological clock can hold out. You've got to have an 'exit plan' that leaves you available to your husband and kids without sticking them with a bunch of debt.

Your impressive resume might land you a good job; but no 'family oriented' man in his right mind puts an impressive resume at the top of his wife-search criteria.

If you DO go through with the full-time career thing; don't be surprised if the pickins are slim. Most of those responsible, kind, good-natured, family oriented daddy types got snatched up while you were busy launching your career.

This is the advice I will give my daughters. Young ladies 18 to 24 should take it to heart and govern themselves accordingly.
PORCUS | 01.10.06 - 10:43 am | #

"During the show, when the Bachelor meets and talks with the women, Allie told him that she was ready to reproduce because her eggs were getting old."

Besides sounding desperate, it sounds like having kids is just one more life goal to achieve. I'm sure she won't let a kid stand in the way of advancing her career further, so most likely the child will be left with a nanny to raise 'em. The child may growup not knowing mom that well, but at least they'll know Spainish.
Mark in OC | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 10:57 am | #

There is a business opportunity here. There needs to be a school for professional women to learn how to be a respectful, affectionate companion and sensuous playmate.
Common Lawyer | 01.10.06 - 10:59 am | #

Hoosiertoo: I don't think that sexy or revealing lingerie is bad in the context of a proper marriage. What do you care what a husband and wife do behind closed doors? It's not immodest and it's not immoral.

The marital bed remains pure.

-Bart
Bartleby | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 10:59 am | #

I wonder how much of the woman's rant was put-on. Come on, remember this is a reality show, which means some of it is concocted. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the producers and the woman cooked it up. Makes great publicity. How do we know she was actually a doctor and not an aspiring actress?
JohnR | 01.10.06 - 11:10 am | #

"There is a business opportunity here. There needs to be a school for professional women to learn how to be a respectful, affectionate companion and sensuous playmate"

Call it the "Travis McGee Finishing School for Wayward Women" (Founded c. 1965, Ft. Lauderdale, FL).

If there's one fictional character (other than James Bond or Vox Day) who could pull it off; it would be Travis.
PORCUS | 01.10.06 - 11:10 am | #

I enjoyed John MacDonald's TM books. Or was that John D.?
[Goes and looks up Travis...]

It was John D. MacDonald. :-)
.
harry12 | 01.10.06 - 11:38 am | #

Shamefully, I watched it. I have a vested interest in the show because I am in a Bachelor “fantasy league” since I owed my wife for her filling a vacant spot in the fantasy football league I run (she loved it, btw, and will be playing next season). Give and take...lol. But make it a game or competition and I'll ante up.

At any rate, the Oncologist's scenes started out humorous as she mentioned being ready for her "reproductive stage" after having just met the guy. Clearly, she has no concept on how to draw a man's interest...soon after meeting a man, if a women mentions she is looking for someone to "reproduce" with, he is gone. From the Tao of Seinfeld: No big, sudden movements ("I'm trying to get a little squirrel to come over to me here. I don't wanna make any big, sudden movements. I'll frighten him away." - Elaine, Seinfeld - Ep. 120).

Then, it became kind of surreal and scary as she later got angry and kept talking about "reproducing"...I mean, I've heard women who are desperate to get married and have a family say things along the lines of wanting to "have babies", but all she ever seemed to say was "reproduce" and conjugates thereof (although, I am sure some (and only some) of the editing didn’t help her a ton). It reminded me of the alien’s drive in "Species". At least she is honest and upfront…and thinks, "maybe making 'having babies' sound more clinical won’t scare men off."

In the end, it was kind of sad to see a relatively intelligent woman, at least by most standards, totally lost in important aspects of life outside of career, fearful on missing out on one of the true joys in life, yet STILL buying into the modern feminist garbage. Even after all her failings at blind dating, internet dating, dating services, it was still men who are too threatened by her to be with her. She thinks she has done it all right, and is afraid to admit she bought into the lies. It is not her, but someone else’s faults, fears, narrow-mindedness, etc. – the perpetual human “blame game”. Not only that, she has to now face her family, co-workers, patients and the general public after the melt-down...how embarrassing. It was very pitiful and I honestly feel sort of dirty for witnessing the whole thing as offered entertainment.
LPP | 01.10.06 - 11:45 am | #

Vox, didn't you say under your advice to women- in a column a while ago- that women should only date men that want children- and that dating someone who didn't in order to change their mind was silly?

Obviously the man did not want children- so she's better off, aye?
Renee | 01.10.06 - 11:47 am | #

I wonder how feminists would spin this? Surely the sheer number of single cat-stewards which fill their ranks should clue them into the fact that their philosophy isn't amenable to relationships with the other gender.
Or was that the point in the first place?
Ah, nevermind.
Pablo | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 11:50 am | #

Where's Nate? He'd be the expert blogger on marrying a doctor.
ajw308 | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 11:54 am | #

Renee - of course she is in that context, but that's not what this is about and you know it.
Spacebunny | 01.10.06 - 11:55 am | #

It's about the fact that she's a bitch. People don't like bitches. I don't like bitches.

My friends and I don't exhibit the "catty" attitude- but I've noticed that it's more prevelant in the "popular" females- the sorority girls that the men salivate over. Us geeky types don't generally generate slobber, but we don't scratch each other to death either.
Renee | 01.10.06 - 12:03 pm | #

I've got no gripes with busy career women who marry busy career men and by-pass having children.

Their conspicuous consumption is good for the economy. Especially Caddy and BMW dealers.

And if they both smoke (or kill each other before retirement age) they help keep soc-sec afloat.

From a gubment stand-point; high-earning non-breeders who off themselves before age 65 are the ideal taxpayer.

Maybe more liberals would smoke, BASE jump, and stay childless if they knew just how much a high-income and early death contributed to the welfare-state.

We can always hope.
PORCUS | 01.10.06 - 12:04 pm | #

Renee, I don't think it is that he doesn't want children (which may or may not be the case), but most men do, in fact, want a real relationship and to be more than simply a means to an end. When a woman immediately starts in on seeking to "reproduce", a man is going to wonder if she wants him for who he is as a person or merely a live-in sperm donor who fits some fairytale profile (eg "you're a doctor, you're handsome, you make a good living - let's reproduce!"). Just as women, men do not want to be mere objects of someone else's attempt at making their fantasy world a reality. We're people, too! lol
LPP | 01.10.06 - 12:05 pm | #

I suppose. But when I'm interested in someone I always ask if he wants kids and how he feels about abortion, very soon after meeting. If he tells me he eventually wants kids, I cross him off the list. It's certainly not attractive to talk about your aging eggs, but if I were her I'd probably bring it up with the same quickness that I bring up not wanting any now. There's no point in starting something when you're fundementally incompatible about your life goals.
Renee | 01.10.06 - 12:12 pm | #

You and John Ross seem to be on the same page: Feminism's Blunders.
Mr. Bruce | 01.10.06 - 12:12 pm | #

I knew someone who got on a reality show. The person didn't belong on reality television as there was a lot of problems in the background. On the show there was a meltdown in part because of the way the show was stacked. My guess is that producers want a show that will generate excitement and pick the participants on that basis, not giving a damn about the long term consequences for the participant.

The professional women I've met married well as there are men do want women who bring money and prestige into the relationship. The men would rather be able to say to colleagues that their wife is a such and such rather than a housewife who stays home and watches the kids. In the past women who stayed in the home provided a back-up, freeing the man to use his time to develop his career, and in smaller towns the women provided the social contacts that lead to business arrangements. I think things have changed as corporate life has expanded.

Then again I might be wrong.
Zuukie | 01.10.06 - 12:13 pm | #

In many of the marriages I see that tend to be rocky with or without women's carrers, a lot of the problems are rooted in the woman's lack of authority orientation. Even when the women are not acknowledged feminists, they see the notion of "submitting" as degrading. They don't respect their husbands eventhough the men are by and large respectable. IMO this is some of the residuals of feminism. Though they are nominally Christian they don't buy into God's plan for successful marriage. This is bound to interfere with their happiness.
WGM | 01.10.06 - 12:28 pm | #

I was recently listening to a discussion between two women who were deriding a man who had essentially this attitude - that since he was successful, he was "all that." Funny how feminists deplore in men what they aspire for women to be...
Daniel | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 12:31 pm | #

Obviously the man did not want children- so she's better off, aye?- Renee

This is not at all obvious. What IS obvious is that they were not even at the hand-holding stage, and she was jumping ahead to the "put-it-in-and-inseminate-me" stage.
"I'm ready to reproduce." That's what I call romance!
The only emotion she seems capable of is rage.
Pon farr, anyone?
Dadoovark | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 12:37 pm | #

Mike - real women instead of shemales.

I prefer the term She-its. And the faster pronounced, the better.

Obviously the man did not want children- so she's better off, aye?

I would think so... although her anger likely stems from the realization that the man may actually want children, just not at the very start of the marriage. Men in their mid-30s don't date women their age for just this reason. They want to be able to be married a year or three before getting started with children.

One of my best friends is in this category. He's closer to forty than thirty, but because he wants to have children, doesn't bother with anyone over thirty. He has no problem with women his age, finds them attractive and doesn't even mind the career thing. But he wants children, so first dates with women over thirty are out.
VD | 01.10.06 - 12:44 pm | #

WGM - that is a very good point and one I also see.
Spacebunny | 01.10.06 - 12:50 pm | #

Obviously the man did not want children- so she's better off, aye?
Renee | 01.10.06 - 11:47 am | #

He wanted children but just not with her. Wasn't that obvious?
Athor Pel | 01.10.06 - 1:02 pm | #

No, actually it wasn't. I didn't see the show, because I don't watch TV, but did he actually say he wanted kids?
Renee | 01.10.06 - 1:10 pm | #

He wanted children but just not with her. Wasn't that obvious?
Athor Pel | 01.10.06 - 1:02 pm | #

What he wants is a wife. What he does not want is to be a possible temporaty appendage.

It's not that a woman having a career is bad, but these women put the career before everything wlse.
Salt | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 1:11 pm | #

Vox, has your friend had any luck finding a wife? If he's rich, he might be fine, but he's getting old and if he's TOO picky he might not end up with kids OR a wife.

Women in their early thirties can still be pretty fertile. Heck, my aunt accidentally got pregnant in her early forties, and now I have a three year old cousin.
Renee | 01.10.06 - 1:17 pm | #

The Oncologist's words of "reproduction" rather than "have a family" is very telling. The very fact she uses a reductionist term as it pertains to love, sex, family, children and life speaks volumes about her state of mind.

No doubt she would think someone telling her that all of her desires are simple, naturalistic, biochemistry is degrading to her as a person, but that is exactly what she does to herself.

Where is the beauty, truth and goodness in her? Is she nothing more than a clever ape in a dress with ovaries that has a biological need to reproduce before she dies? She would take offense at this description of herself but her very words reduces her to nothing but and ape in a dress.
aLutheran | 01.10.06 - 1:17 pm | #

psh

He doesnt want a wife.

He wants to be on tv.
kim | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 1:19 pm | #

He doesnt want a wife.

He wants to be on tv.

Truer words... with regards to everyone on that show, but especially the guy.
Spacebunny | 01.10.06 - 1:25 pm | #

Mrs. Crom (who is an elementary school teacher) told me sometime after we were married that one of the women in her gym group once commented in a derisive fashion how it was that my wife, the "school teacher" managed to catch a husband while working when she herself and her MBA from UT was still single in her late twenties...

My wife explained to her that men prefer women who aren't selfish and shallow when it comes to prioritizing family and careers, and that she was not amazed that this woman and her MBA were still single with an attitude like that.

The interesting postscript to all of this is later when one of my single buddies heard this story while over one night immediately wanted to know a. was Ms. MBA hot? (kind of) and b. would my wife set him up with her -- because he instantly knew he would get everything he wanted, and nothing that he didn't.
Crom | 01.10.06 - 1:47 pm | #

Allie G. distilled:

"Why won't you marry me and sire my children, you worthless son of a bitch?!"

Yes, very attractive.
Anti-War Conservative | 01.10.06 - 1:55 pm | #

Farmer Tom: I feel genuine saddness for the lawyer who wrote to you Vox. She sounds as though the light came on for her, and yet the odds are she will not find a guy that would be proper marriage material.

Hey... uh... I'm a 30-something single guy. I wouldn't mind marrying a lawyer if I could get along with her.
Randall | 01.10.06 - 2:19 pm | #

Yeah the mother of my son is the same way. I want a baby is all I heard when I met her at 28. She was 28 and I was a sucker sperm donor!!!

Many women are so desperate that any man will do and hopefully the one she is with will stay will her, even though her baby comes out black and she's white!!!!

I would only want that Dr. for financial security, other than that, it would be a war zone I can imagine. How a man could serve her. A man have to be princess universal treatment specialist. On call, even when he's sleeping!!!

I'd rather marry a broke ass hottie, than a female professional, unless I'm super rich!!! Women rarely marry down for love. An H-bomb is what they call professional women at Harvard and Yale.
Verlch | 01.10.06 - 2:19 pm | #

How hard is it for a woman to act pretty, act like they need us, and to be a ditsy klutz???
Verlch | 01.10.06 - 2:21 pm | #

I would only want that Dr. for financial security, other than that, it would be a war zone I can imagine. How a man could serve her. A man have to be princess universal treatment specialist. On call, even when he's sleeping!!!

I wouldn't mind being a stay-at-home dad. Nate has it made. I could stay home and bring in a few extra bucks with my computer skills. Mow the grass. Work out. And be ready for her when she gets home.
Randall | 01.10.06 - 2:26 pm | #

If you want to see a few seconds of her outburst, it's on AOL Television-TV's Top 5. I know, but I'm cyberneticly challenged and have to use AOL. And, yes, she uses the "F" word.
Tom Bell | 01.10.06 - 2:44 pm | #

Spacebunny,

Thanks the kids enjoyed it and I had fun too.
Res Ipsa | 01.10.06 - 2:50 pm | #

MikeWC asks: "If there are "real women," then there must be "fake women.""

Sure. Any woman in what is traditionally a man's profession (any not traditionally a woman's field), a feminist, a woman with short hair, a loudly argumentative woman, a large unresponsive woman with naturally small-to-nonexistent breasts, a woman past her reproductive years who chose not to have children without a compensating public-service career (would NOT involve gov't work, high pay, fame, or authority over men) -- any of these would qualify IMO.
MinnesotaSmith | 01.10.06 - 2:59 pm | #

"Nate has it made."

Yeah, I think about that sometimes.

In our current jobs, I'd say Mrs. PORCUS has better long-term earnings potential (and job security) than I do. I make slightly more than her; but not by much - and certainly not for much longer if the raises keep coming a the rate they do.

BUT...she's in a field where you can work part-time or as needed. It's also a physically demanding job (she's a PT) and it takes a toll on her poor little frame.

For me, it would be a career killer to quit working...even for a little while. "Stay at Home Dad" does NOT look good on an engineer's resume.

There's a certain 'front' you've got to maintain in the manufacturing world...100% dedication; work before family; etc. Not that thats TRUE for very many of us...but you've got to keep up appearances, otherwise you make yourself a target for the head-choppers. "Part time", "job sharing", etc. don't exist in my world.

Maybe it boils down to pride and self-image. For me, not having a 'real job' (not matter how loathesome) is a scary thought. There's even a sick pride in doing something you despise in order to put food on the table.

Either Nate has the self-confidence to handle it and be comfortable with it; or he's full of crap and just pretending it doesn't other him.

Personally, I think its the former. I've never detected a hint of resentfulness toward Mrs. Dr. Nate. I've never heard him complain about NOT having a job outside the house. He seems totally cool with his arrangements.

It might just be too tough for me.
PORCUS | 01.10.06 - 3:00 pm | #

"Any woman in what is traditionally a man's profession (any not traditionally a woman's field)"

Currently? For instance, in the early 1900's being a secretary was considered a man's profession, because using a typewriter was considered a skill that woman couldn't master. I'd be interested to know what other professions you think being female should preclude you from.

"a feminist, a woman with short hair, a loudly argumentative woman"

How short? Some women look really cute with bobs.

"a large unresponsive woman with naturally small-to-nonexistent breasts"

Great, I'm petite and large chested- this must make me a real woman!

"a woman past her reproductive years who chose not to have children without a compensating public-service career (would NOT involve gov't work, high pay, fame, or authority over men)"

J. Lo is too famous to be a real woman then, huh.
Renee | 01.10.06 - 3:10 pm | #

“How short? Some women look really cute with bobs.”

Maybe to other women. Men tend to like women who look like women, long hair is one of those attributes. Butch and bitchy isn’t as attractive as feminine and friendly.

I know that hair style, dress, etc is largely a matter of personal taste. As a general rule a physically fit women with long hair, a friendly smile, pleasant personality that wears feminine looking dresses will not want for male attention.
Res Ipsa | 01.10.06 - 3:28 pm | #

"How short? Some women look really cute with bobs."

So says a woman. bleck.
Supernaut | 01.10.06 - 3:37 pm | #

It is most likely not a "bit" or a scripted act. As to reality shows. Our head Script writer took a job at Survivor in 2002 from a media company in Richardson TX.

Last year while hanging out with a friend in an upscale watering hole in Las Colinas (Irving,TX), I met a 30 something professional Woman. She engaged me in conversation and immediately asked about my Marital status.

She almost immediately told me "I cannot seem to meet Men who want to commit or have a Family." She also explained how her Mother destroyed her family because she embraced Feminism.

Women have an expiration date. Men don't. Men who are successful want what they don't have. Agreeable, sweet, feminine companionship. Life is tough, and the market is competitive. Men don't want to come home to a competitor. They want companionship, intimacy, appreciation.

With the huge numbers of Single Mother homes, young Women don't know how to relate to mature Men. And "Slut Feminism" is not the way to do it. Young Males who are absent a Father are not being taught the proper way to behave as a Man. Fathers transmit cultural values to their children, and teach their sons how to be Men.
khankrumthebulgar | 01.10.06 - 3:46 pm | #

As a doctor, she should have access to a sperm bank. I mean one that uses cyrogenic test tubes, not the kind that walks on two legs.

But try to imagine the next Bachlorette show with her as the focus. "Why do I have some roses left?" as we see dark tux shaped shadows doing hurdles over the hedge in the background...
tz | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 3:48 pm | #

"Your impressive resume might land you a good job; but no 'family oriented' man in his right mind puts an impressive resume at the top of his wife-search criteria."

Unless he can muster up enough foresight to realize he may not be around forever and his wife will have to pay the bills and feed the kids somehow. Husbands can leave, husbands can die. I would think a good husband wouldn't want his widow working for minimum wage and his kids to scrape by because "being a good mother" in his mind only extended to child care and house keeping.
kim | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 4:16 pm | #

"Unless he can muster up enough foresight to realize he may not be around forever and his wife will have to pay the bills and feed the kids somehow."

This can be delt with with life insurance. Real men make provision for such things.
Res Ipsa | 01.10.06 - 4:25 pm | #

Super and Res: Some of the women from the 20s with short hair were GORGEOUS. The difference is that they also took the time to feminize the rest of themselves. They wore makeup, dressed nicely, and otherwise acted feminine.

Khan has it right.
-Bart
Bartleby | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 4:29 pm | #

Kim,

That's what life insurance is for - to take care of the family if the father dies.
Penciloid | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 4:41 pm | #

"Obviously the man did not want children- so she's better off, aye?"

No Renee...the only thing that is obvious is that he didn't want children with HER.
Dave | 01.10.06 - 4:45 pm | #

Vox, has your friend had any luck finding a wife? If he's rich, he might be fine, but he's getting old and if he's TOO picky he might not end up with kids OR a wife.

Not yet. His problem is that he tends to move too slow. By the time he's ready, the girl has assumed that he's either gay or aloof and has met and broken up with at least three other men.

But he's very not hurting in the wealth department. He'll be fine.
VD | 01.10.06 - 4:46 pm | #

Kim, are you seriously suggesting that a man's choice of wife should be based on the sort of woman who could survive best without him?
Darren Blacksmith | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 4:47 pm | #

I'm all for women being able to provide for the family if hubby gets hit by a bus.

No one has suggested that women should be illiterate and unskilled. I'm just suggesting that most women don't consider what they are going to want at age 35 when they are choosing a college major at 19.

If you decide to drop $200,000 and 8 years of your life on a legal or medical degree; understand where you are going to be and what you'll be doing when the biological clock goes off...and what kind of "men" will be available to you.
PORCUS | 01.10.06 - 4:48 pm | #

How short? Some women look really cute with bobs.

Yes, and they look even better with long hair down to at least the small of their back. Space Bunny has fairly long hair and I still lobby her to grow it out.

Hair = Good. I mean, there's a reason that the career most dependent upon appeal to men inspired the term "stripper hair".

Can you even imagine mid-80's Tawny Kitaen rolling around on a car with a bob? And if so, why bother?
VD | 01.10.06 - 4:51 pm | #

"...there's a reason that the career most dependent upon appeal to men inspired the term "stripper hair"."

I always thought it was because their hair smelled so good.

I say that based soley (I assure you) on very limited experience from a very long time ago.

Misadventures I have since repented of.

But I still remember how their hair smells.
PORCUS | 01.10.06 - 5:11 pm | #

Lots of porn stars have short bobs, right? I mean, if that is what men want to fantasize about, that is what the porn industry, strippers and escorts, and even Hollywood big name (young) actresses will show on the red carpet, right?

Some women do look cute in a bob. Some women have super thin hair and can't have long hair. But if you are serious about catching the eye of a man, you should do what you can to enhance your appeal to men, not to your fellow women.

Look at the hairstyles in men's magazines, and not women's fashion magazines.
JCclimber | 01.10.06 - 5:13 pm | #

The men would rather be able to say to colleagues that their wife is a such and such rather than a housewife-Zuukie

Sorry Zuukie. I think you are wrong. Perhaps not universally so but I think in general this is not what men hope for. The last 4 decades have conditioned us to believe that this is how we should be. That to even think otherwise is a moral failing, a giving into instinctive patriarchal desires that must be repressed. Bah! Most men want a woman that is willing to become a part of him and his identity. To take his name, give him children and bring those things, the woman's touch things to the relationship that he know he is no good at. Someone who believes in him enough to trust him with her future and well being. We know it is not 'fair' and we wouldn't push it on a woman that doesn't want it. We want her to want it. Every man wants to be a hero, even if only to his family.
Viking | 01.10.06 - 5:29 pm | #

If she's such a strong woman, why doesn't she just go get artificially inseminated and have a kid all by her lonesome? She's pretty much bought into the rest of the Big Lie, why not that part as well?

Not that I care; I just hate seeing someone go about something half-assed. :)
voodoojock | 01.10.06 - 5:35 pm | #

"Great, I'm petite and large chested- this must make me a real woman!"

Yep, you got it!
Sir Desdicado | 01.10.06 - 5:36 pm | #

"Women have an expiration date. Men don't."

Well, Viagra has certainly helped some people, but not the men who don't care enough to bother.

"I mean, if that is what men want to fantasize about, that is what the porn industry..."

And the porn industry is filled with woman with fake boobs. And for some reason, while men LIKE boobs it turns out that most don't care about size too much as long as they're there.

Or maybe all the guys I know are atypical...

I do agree that long hair is generally prettier though.
Renee | 01.10.06 - 5:46 pm | #

Men... want... Agreeable, sweet, feminine companionship. Life is tough, and the market is competitive. Men don't want to come home to a competitor. They want companionship, intimacy, appreciation.-Khan

This is so true. If there is only one item to take from this whole thread it is this ladies. Your husband need you to be on his side. Not wants, needs. If you are against him your marriage will die. No maybes, you may or may not get a divorce but it will die. If you don't like where the two of you are is going, talk to him about it. Don't hint about it. He won't figure it out. Tell him your worried, tell him your scared but for God sake tell him that you are still on his side and that you believe in him. Companion good. Competitor bad.
Viking | 01.10.06 - 5:47 pm | #

Zuukie - you may be right to a certain extent for a very small minority of men. Men with real power and money wouldn't dream of wanting their wives to work. It demeans their ability to be seen as the provider. It is a bigger point of pride for them to be able to support their wives/lifestyles without "help" from their wives.
Spacebunny | 01.10.06 - 5:57 pm | #

husbands can die. I would think a good husband wouldn't want his widow working for minimum wage and his kids to scrape by because "being a good mother" in his mind only extended to child care and house keeping.

Yes, husbands can die. A good husband knows that his wife is taking a huge chance and making an incredible sacrifice for the sake of family. A good husband will bust his ass to make sure that money gets saved and that his insurance is paid on time. This is also why Jesus said that pure religion was to care for widows and orphans. Women give up so much to be mothers. For that they should be honored and not forgotten when terrible things happen. When Jesus was dying on the cross he didn't say much. Of the few things he did say where these words to his mother and best friend John 19:26-27 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home. Think of that. Knowing where he was, what he was and where he was going he yet took the time and effort to make sure his earthly mother was taken care of.
Viking | 01.10.06 - 6:31 pm | #

"Maybe it boils down to pride and self-image. For me, not having a 'real job' (not matter how loathesome) is a scary thought. There's even a sick pride in doing something you despise in order to put food on the table."

For me it was an extension of the commitment I made when I married a med student. I knew that I would have to follow her for residency. We also expected that she would practice in a rural area in KS, so the prospects of having a career (as opposed to a job) were pretty limited for me. It just made more sense to stay at home when we started having children.
Papapete | 01.10.06 - 6:33 pm | #

BTW, would anyone in their right mind marry a man or woman who thought so little of themselves that they would appear on a show like "The Bachelor"?
Papapete | 01.10.06 - 6:35 pm | #

Freaking hilarious how Allie G's rants included the favorite whine of the "liberal" (socialistic altruist):
"It's not FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIR!!!"
Ted | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 6:43 pm | #

And the porn industry is filled with woman with fake boobs. And for some reason, while men LIKE boobs it turns out that most don't care about size too much as long as they're there.

Mostly true. While men that are looking only for a trophy or a short term fantasy might go for fake hooters, most average guys want the real thing. That said, bigger is still considered better but not at the cost her being slim. Universally, through out human cultures, men are physically attracted to those women what appear to be the most capable of bearing children. i.e. Those who are young and healthy, fit but soft and have symmetric facial features with unblemished skin. Generally having a hip to waist ration of 70% with boobs that are as large as possible while still being natural. This is the ideal. The kind of woman that topples nations. Most of us are just being realistic.
Viking | 01.10.06 - 7:07 pm | #

Viking, I think the figure you are describing was once refered to in a book I read as, "A figure to make a Bishop kick out a stained glass window."
farmer Tom | 01.10.06 - 7:27 pm | #

This can be delt with with life insurance. Real men make provision for such things.
Res Ipsa | 01.10.06 - 4:25 pm | #

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Life insurance gets eaten up real fast. Especially for a family.
kim | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 8:23 pm | #

If you decide to drop $200,000 and 8 years of your life on a legal or medical degree; understand where you are going to be and what you'll be doing when the biological clock goes off...and what kind of "men" will be available to you.
PORCUS | 01.10.06 - 4:48 pm | #

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I hate to be the one to burst your bubble, but there are good men out there who don't end up married early.
kim | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 8:26 pm | #

It is a bigger point of pride for them to be able to support their wives/lifestyles without "help" from their wives.
Spacebunny | 01.10.06 - 5:57 pm | #

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Aaahh, I see.

So it really isn't about them or her....it's about HIM. His pride, his ability, how others view him.
kim | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 8:29 pm | #

"So it really isn't about them or her....it's about HIM. His pride, his ability, how others view him."

In the case of the doctor, it's clearly about HER. If she wanted to, she could find a man to marry and raise her kids. The problem is her pride; she doesn't want to introduce "my husband the kindergarten teacher" or "my husband the assistant manager at Quik Trip" to her associates.

While it's true that men frequently measure each other by occupation, it's also true that many women do the very same thing when looking for a mate.
Papapete | 01.10.06 - 9:12 pm | #

"Aaahh, I see.

So it really isn't about them or her....it's about HIM. His pride, his ability, how others view him."

Yes, that's it, well done. You're very quick. Did you figure it out all by yourself?

Of course, the desire to provide for the family after his death is merely a shallow, ego-stroking exercise...everyone knows that - where have you been?

The only thing shallow here is your cynical world-view...
dave | 01.10.06 - 9:43 pm | #

Life insurance gets eaten up real fast. Especially for a family.

I am a Dave Ramsey fan and I tend to agree with his recommendations and numbers. He suggests having a level term policy valued at ten times what you earn per year. If that entire amount less funeral costs is properly invested then the she should be able to draw off about 8% a year and have the nest egg remain stable. That is a perpetual income of 80% what they lived on together. That is not a bad retirement. Yes, it does assume that the economy will remain about as stable as it has been over the last 70 years but then there is no way to entirely avoid the worst case scenario. It also assumes that she does nothing. Neither wasting it all nor getting a job and adding to it. The point is that with a little planning, discipline and not to much more bad luck she should be financially able to finish raising their children and after that retire comfortably.
Viking | 01.10.06 - 9:49 pm | #

Of course, the desire to provide for the family after his death is merely a shallow, ego-stroking exercise...everyone knows that - where have you been?

The only thing shallow here is your cynical world-view...
dave | 01.10.06 - 9:43 pm | #

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Evidently, the desire to provide for his family is overshadowed by pride if it means he may look less like a "real" man to people outside his family because his wife works, or will work if he's gone...( no mention of it if she has to work if he leaves her though). Then, you get life insurance and cross your fingers and hope that's enough (it rarely is for the average person) or hope he doesn't leave.

Not too realistic and based on a whole lot of feeling, doncha think?
kim | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 10:28 pm | #

The point is that with a little planning, discipline and not to much more bad luck she should be financially able to finish raising their children and after that retire comfortably.
Viking | 01.10.06 - 9:49 pm | #

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And another cross your fingers and hope it's enough , but if it isn't you're screwed plan.

Dunno about you, but that's just not good enough if Im thinking about family. Too much crap can happen between that and disaster.
kim | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 10:33 pm | #

Kim, Yes bad things can happen, I know they did for you, but my wife chooses to stay home and raise the kids. We homeschool so the idea of her working all day won't fit with the homeschool thing anyway. homeschooling was a choice we made together. Sure it limits our income and if something happens to me, she would struggle financially but if the choice is between her working for financial security or educating our children in the manner that we see fit, well she has accepted the risk.

If God is gracious in the next couple of years our financial situation will be much better and the future will be much more secure. When she married a farmer she knew that the financial returns were not as good as the lifestyle that farming brings. Now if we can only get that oppertunity to farm for ourselves again, then we can work on securing the financial security she deserves.
farmer Tom | 01.10.06 - 11:03 pm | #

farmer Tom: it's all matter of risk management [where all kinds of insurance comes to play]. And time management: pay now or pay later.

How much positive influence we can provide for our children is a very small window, anywhere from 13 to 18 years so the more we pour ourselves into that small window, the better the odds of the [positive] "return(s)" will be.

I myself started home education as a pure educational effort [i.e., merely trying to do better academically] but has now turned into a whole lifestyle issue/effort [i.e., raising godly sons].....
DannyHSDad | Homepage | 01.10.06 - 11:36 pm | #

Kim,
if I marry a responsible woman, I don't see any realistic scenario where she and my children cannot live for many years off 10 years of my salary. She can go back to work after the children grow up. They can put themselves through school.
JCclimber | 01.10.06 - 11:48 pm | #

Actually, I'm insured for 14x my salary, and she is a nurse who can make 6 figures, but the point is that if I die suddenly, she and my family will be provided for financially.

I'm not asking her to trust me based on nothing.
JCclimber | 01.10.06 - 11:52 pm | #

Evidently, the desire to provide for his family is overshadowed by pride if it means he may look less like a "real" man to people outside his family because his wife works, or will work if he's gone...( no mention of it if she has to work if he leaves her though). Then, you get life insurance and cross your fingers and hope that's enough (it rarely is for the average person) or hope he doesn't leave.

Wow. That is amazingly cynical. Some guy must have really screwed you or someone you love over badly.

Being a fulltime mom definitely requires a lot of trust. A woman who chooses to stay at home is placing herself and her future at the mercy of her husband. A lot of men don't have the character it takes to not take advantage of that. On the other hand, not every man is a rat bastard. Honorable, loving men do exist and women who want to be a stay at home moms can find them but they do need to choose wisely. Trust does not come without learning to depend on someone and that dependence brings with it risk. I suppose it all depends on whether or not we believe that the reward of no holding back, full trust relationship is worth that risk.
Viking | 01.11.06 - 12:26 am | #

Viking and Spacebunny, according to some people, "A million dollars isn't what it used to be" and you may know people in higher brackets than I've met.

I can only go by what I've seen. In the middle class when the wife stays home, it's a happier home than if she was working. It's a big strain on the wife because going to a job and running a house can make a good woman darn crabby and tired out. Holding a lower level job while being married does not bring fulfillment to a woman's life.

However, when two are making very good money, there are child care helpers, cleaning services, and gardening services, to start with. There are tutoring services, live-in help or there is money for eating out often. A vacation doesn't mean a cabin on the lake in Wisconsin.

A good relationship between husband and wife is not dependent on whether or not a wife works but what values the partners have in common.
Zuukie | 01.11.06 - 1:12 am | #

I found this blog while doing a google search looking for clips of that woman's meltdown. No luck so far. Anybody know of any links to any video somebody has posted online?? thanks.
anonymous | 01.11.06 - 6:27 am | #

Kim: Men know that one can use a little male chauvinist tool called "mathematics" to get enough life insurance for one's family.
Nesselrode5 | 01.11.06 - 6:52 am | #

if I marry a responsible woman, I don't see any realistic scenario where she and my children cannot live for many years off 10 years of my salary. She can go back to work after the children grow up. They can put themselves through school.
JCclimber | 01.10.06 - 11:48 pm | #

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She can go back to work after the kids grow up. So thats at least 10 (as an exmple)years of no work history and depending on the field she goes back to, employers aren't all that eager to hire people who've been out of the work environment that long.

Motherhood isn't viewed as a viable job skill,regardless of the fact one has to be damn competant to be one.

Think of it like marriage. The older you get, the smaller your opportunities become.
kim | Homepage | 01.11.06 - 9:39 am | #

"Wow. That is amazingly cynical. Some guy must have really screwed you or someone you love over badly."

It's not cynical, it's realistic.

It's not a coicidence that the majority of those living below povertly level are single mothers. Alimony and child support doesn't seem to be the cash cow it's portrayed as, and if you're poor to begin with and can't afford life insurance or struggling working class and can barely afford minimun coverage, death of a partner can bring financial disaster. Lingering illnesses, bills, acrued debts..there's just too many variables to risk. A college education can at least buffer it.

Motherhood is just not translated into viable work skills to those that matter when you need a job. And if she does get a job, it will be a strike against her when it comes to deciding her salary.

It's a fine line to walk, and Im sure if you're confident you've covered it, you don't worry too much about it. But not everyone can, and the tune changes when you're among them.
kim | Homepage | 01.11.06 - 9:51 am | #

Kim, I have a spacific question for you and your views "feminism".

How does your ascribed theory of feminism operate within the realm of Biblical Patriarchy? If you are not a Christian then do not answer this as this is entirely a theological issue to see how ones current world view works within the Biblical frame work. It has no meaning if you are not a Christian. If that is the case we could only look at world views on the results they have and then see which is better.
ZT | Homepage | 01.11.06 - 11:06 am | #

Spacebunny: Re: teen mothers. It's certainly not just them spreading for anyone that happens by. It's usually the same mentality, but I know of plenty of dork women with no business (or excuse) getting pregnant. But there they are, shooting out kids with no father in the picture.
Michael Maier | 01.11.06 - 11:39 am | #

I hate to be the one to burst your bubble, but there are good men out there who don't end up married early.

And they aren't the ones with a ticking biological clock, nor are they the ones writing angst-filled articles and books about how they can't land a woman. As a mid-forties single and successful man, I get all the sex I want with a roll of 20's and C-notes from young and nubile ladies. If I decide I want to breed again - hey - Tony Randall was how old when he last became a father?

A bitter and used up 30-something pushing forty doesn't even make the wildcard round. And there is a lot more of YOU than there is of ME.

You're successful. Bravo. So am I. I have money. What else do you have to offer?
The Gonzman | 01.11.06 - 1:59 pm | #

So, kimmie, of all those single mom's below the poverty line - how many of them were teen mothers? Skews your argument to pretend that they were all left by their husbands who either ran away or died. I'm sure all those teen mothers were on track to go to college and become doctors and lawyers right? Right.
Spacebunny | 01.11.06 - 10:45 am | #

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What, does being a teen mom suddenly exclude you from the massive numbers of women having kids just to milk child support from the poor innocent man?

I keep reading how being single and a mother is some sort of cash cow and women who are left or widowed will all just be A OK.

Where are they?

Oh, and where did I assert all the below poverty single moms were anything but below poverty single moms, spaceballs? Since you think Im claiming they're all widows or divorcees, surely you can find where I said it, right?
kim | Homepage | 01.11.06 - 3:40 pm | #

You're successful. Bravo. So am I. I have money. What else do you have to offer?
The Gonzman | 01.11.06 - 1:59 pm | #

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What do you have to offer?

Money? Got that covered.

Success? Got it covered.

Kids? Got sperm banks for that.

Nice car? BFD, me too.

House? Paid for, thanks.

Sex? Dont have a problem getting it, could step out my door and get it when and how I want. And when I don't, I have a backup with 5 speeds.

See this is the thing. Successful smart women can still be good mothers, good cooks and offer everything any other woman can. But when they're successful on their own, what can a man give us beyond what we already have? All you really had before was money and security to offer..and if we have money and can buy security, whatcha got?
kim | Homepage | 01.11.06 - 3:46 pm | #

How does your ascribed theory of feminism operate within the realm of Biblical Patriarchy? If you are not a Christian then do not answer this as this is entirely a theological issue to see how ones current world view works within the Biblical frame work. It has no meaning if you are not a Christian. If that is the case we could only look at world views on the results they have and then see which is better.
ZT | Homepage | 01.11.06 - 11:06 am | #

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Im not a christian
kim | Homepage | 01.11.06 - 3:47 pm | #

The oncologist seemed lost in the universe. Incredible by any standard.

As most Western women are brainwashed like this, men's best option is not to marry! Why bring the government in when one can enjoy life, focus on career, and sport sex women?

Today it is downright dangerous to marry, given that laws favor women!

Plus, foreign women are more feminine, family friendly, and think highly of American men. YOU MUST BE CRAZY TO WANT TO MARRY IN A WESTERN COUNTRY AND THE ONCOLOGIST PROVES IT!
Tormentor | 01.11.06 - 4:03 pm | #

Might want to retract those claws kimmie, you already look like an idiot. Your entire case up till now has been that women should work even after they are married because you never know what might happen to your husband. You then cited poverty level single moms to try to support your case. It doesn't work because many of those women were never married to begin with. It doesn't work.

I keep reading how being single and a mother is some sort of cash cow and women who are left or widowed will all just be A OK.

Where are they?

Presumably above the poverty level which is why your statistic doesn't work if many of the single mom's living below the poverty line (which is a ridiculous, arbitrary line anyway and has little to do with true poverty ala the third world, but I digress) were never married to begin with.
Spacebunny | 01.11.06 - 4:48 pm | #

Still remains - I'm - and my brothers - aren't the ones screeching about "not finding a woman" on national TV. Or writing columns. Or writing books. Or going on Oprah.

We're the norm.

You're the odd woman out.
The Gonzman | 01.11.06 - 4:03 pm | #

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Theres a contradiction here then, because if you scroll through many of these threads a common theme is that feminism has ruined women for all those men who want to get married.

In fact, its a common complaint lately. All those poor maligned men who just want a nice woman to settle down with, but can't find anyone because evil feminism has brainwashed them all.
kim | Homepage | 01.11.06 - 5:16 pm | #

"want to retract those claws kimmie, you already look like an idiot. Your entire case up till now has been that women should work even after they are married because you never know what might happen to your husband. You then cited poverty level single moms to try to support your case. It doesn't work because many of those women were never married to begin with. It doesn't work. "

No sweetie, I haven't said all women should work. Or must work. I said job experience or higher education helps if she has to go to work after a death or a divorce. And the chances of her having to work after are high.
kim | Homepage | 01.11.06 - 5:18 pm | #

We, Western men have choices. We can look for women in Russia, Poland, South America, Thailand etc.. who haven't been polluted by the lie of femenism. Kim and other feminist DO NOT have a choice. We rant on this and other sites because we like to share our expericences and horror stories about feminism. of course Kim has made a list of all the material possesions she has, but the fact remains that women like her are the ones panicking because men don't want them for anything else that an occassional fuck.
bernie | 01.11.06 - 5:31 pm | #

I wouldn't mind being a stay-at-home dad. Nate has it made. I could stay home and bring in a few extra bucks with my computer skills. Mow the grass. Work out. And be ready for her when she gets home.

Randall, this is just a guess, but I have a feeling the typical career woman would not find this offer to be terribly attractive. (Visualizing figures in powersuits and high-heels vaulting over hedges here...)

See this is the thing. Successful smart women can still be good mothers, good cooks and offer everything any other woman can. But when they're successful on their own, what can a man give us beyond what we already have? All you really had before was money and security to offer..and if we have money and can buy security, whatcha got?

Apparently whatever it is, Doctor Meltdown desperately, screechingly needs it. If your assertion is true, how do you explain the good Doctor and many more women like her? Why do we not see men in a similar situation of such incredible panic?
Desert Cat | Homepage | 01.11.06 - 5:51 pm | #

No sweetie, I haven't said all women should work.

Actually, you have said that all married women should have a career to fall back on. You've said how important this is over and over. You clearly don't pay attention to what anyone else says, but over and over again you don't even keep track of what you have said. I find you amusing in the extreme.
Spacebunny | 01.11.06 - 6:17 pm | #

See this is the thing. Successful smart women can still be good mothers, good cooks and offer everything any other woman can.

Actually, they can't be good mothers, at least not as good as stay at home moms. A recent study in Britian found this to be true as did a 2004 study in the US.
Spacebunny | 01.11.06 - 6:21 pm | #

A common theme. Assorted posts on the internet as opposed to article after book after TV show, yadda yadda yadda, etc. etc. ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

Yeah, there's an apples to apples comparison.
The Gonzman | 01.11.06 - 6:01 pm | #

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Oh, Ive seen many a book written for men who can't figure out why their impressive checkbook doesnt land them the ladies, and Tv shows with so called "eligble" millionaire bachelors who just cant find a woman. They're just ever so puzzled over it...they have money after all, a nice house..several cars what else could a woman want?

Plenty of books out asking "what do women want" too. Which is a stupid question to begin with because it's not like we pass around a list of attributes for The Perfect Man in high school and it never changes.
kim | Homepage | 01.11.06 - 6:50 pm | #

Actually, they can't be good mothers, at least not as good as stay at home moms. A recent study in Britian found this to be true as did a 2004 study in the US.
Spacebunny | 01.11.06 - 6:21 pm | #

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Andrea Yeats was a stay at home mom.

Why do we not see men in a similar situation of such incredible panic?
Desert Cat | Homepage | 01.11.06 - 5:51 pm | #

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Because they aren't on edited "reality" TV shows that get ratings for hysterical displays of stupidity. Though the Bachelorette had its share of rather whiney men hurt they werent picked.

"Actually, you have said that all married women should have a career to fall back on. You've said how important this is over and over. You clearly don't pay attention to what anyone else says, but over and over again you don't even keep track of what you have said. I find you amusing in the extreme.
Spacebunny | 01.11.06 - 6:17 pm | #

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It's prudent, it's not mandatory. It's realistic, it's not something that should be a mark against her as marriage material. She had the foresight to go to school. Is there some guarantee Im not aware of that states all women who wish to be married will get married, educated or not? And can bank on getting married and not having to worry about finances or eating? Or have housewives suddenly become marketable and considered good potencial employees soley on the merits of staying home?

You don't want employers forced to hire women, you justify not paying them equally because of potencial child rearing duties and you balk at the idea of them being well educated or working outside the home. But really, you just have THEIR best interests at heart.

Right.
kim | Homepage | 01.11.06 - 7:00 pm | #

Why do we not see men in a similar situation of such incredible panic?
Desert Cat | Homepage | 01.11.06 - 5:51 pm | #

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Because they aren't on edited "reality" TV shows that get ratings for hysterical displays of stupidity.
kim | Homepage | 01.11.06 - 7:00 pm | #

So what you are saying then is that Doctor Meltdown is either an extreme anomaly or an outright fabrication, and/or that there are lots of men just like her, (who are, perhaps being carefully concealed by the Patriarchy?)

"I see noTHING! Lalalalala!"
Desert Cat | Homepage | 01.11.06 - 7:40 pm | #

Successful smart women can still be good mothers, good cooks and offer everything any other woman can.

It depends on what you mean by successful. Smart, educated women do make, in my opinion, the best stay at home moms. There are a lot of women out there that want to stay at home because they don't want to work, not because they want to make a house a home and raise children. A no ambition, no work ethic woman makes a horrible wife and mother. I know, I was married to one. Of course having a degree is no guarantee but I think it makes her a better candidate for several reasons.

She is more likely to:
- be smart enough to home school.
- have a reasonable work ethic.
- have some organizational skills.
- not feel inferior and bitter.
- not feel trapped by it.

I don't want a woman that can't think of anything better to do or that she had no choice. I want a woman who chooses motherhood as her vocation. A woman who believes that it is her calling. A woman who is going to put effort into doing it well. I don't want to be her manager, pushing her to do her job. I want a self starter who is trying to figure out ways to make our home better. That's what I would call a partner.

Successful? I would say so, but that defines success in terms of how smoothly the home functions and how happy everyone is. If success has to be defined in terms of income and title from an outside job then she is not going to be a good mother. You can't have to many irons in the fire and expect to do a good job on any of them.

Motherhood is just not translated into viable work skills

I think it does if it is done well but I will agree that it is neither recognized nor easily quantified.
Viking | 01.11.06 - 7:43 pm | #

"Also are most women in their twenties really willing to go out with 40 year old men?"

Karen, Absolutely. At least younger women in other countries are.

Whereas younger american women are usually experimenting with lesbianism or getting laid with every "bad boy" they can find.

Interestingly enough, men in the USA have a six year shorter lifespan which means there are slightly fewer men than women at age 35. However, there are substantially fewer men than women in the forty year age range.

In Russia and the Ukraine, men have a 16 year shorter lifespan which means that there are fewer men than women at age 30. A lot of fairly young Russian/Ukranian women, who are not feminists, and don't like the idea, actually travel to the US (if they can afford it) looking for an american husband. Likewise, american men are beginning to travel to these countries, in greater numbers, looking for a wife who doesn't intuitively hate men. American women tend to have an amazing ability to project an aura of hatred, dislike and even predjudice against men in general, (so I hear).

When women over 35 whine that they can't find a "man", there is a level of validity to this complaint. There are fewer men and increasingly intense competition with women from other countries for american men beginning at this age range.
SM777 | 01.11.06 - 7:44 pm | #

Guys, help me out,

Are all the men here basically in agreement, that a woman over 30 should count on never getting married? I just turned 35. Are you seriously telling me to give up hope, I just can't give up hope. It's my lifelong dream to be a great wife and mother. Even if I am still thin and still look 25 and am still young enough to have four or five children, I should give up hope? Also are most women in their twenties really willing to go out with 40 year old men?
Karen | 01.11.06 - 7:33 pm | #

Just my $0.02, but I see no reason to give up hope...provided you are willing to elevate your dream of being a great wife and mother above any other ambitions you may harbor. If not, you might get lucky and find a guy like Randall.

The real question is, what are you willing to give up to make your dream a reality? What are you willing to bring to the relationship to make it happen? Are you willing to squarely face what it is older men are looking for and determine whether you are willing and able to meet that, in order to see your own goals fulfilled?

Just as a random data point, I'm 40+ and if I were (God forbid) in the market now, I would not be as concerned about appearance now as I would have been ten years ago. It would be much more about character, personality, intelligence, character, heart, wisdom, character, and character.

Looking great is stupendous gravy, but I'd never be so idiotic as to hook up with a greedy, shallow, hot mama who saw me as a meal ticket to her biological destiny.

(Actually, in the current climate, I would probably stay single. If I wanted, I could still get plenty of what I need without any of what I don't need.)
Desert Cat | Homepage | 01.11.06 - 8:04 pm | #

sm77,

Yeah, I hear a lot of guys talk about the foreign women but I don't know anyone who married one. I have an eight year policy meyself. I won't date anyone older than me by over eight years. I think most american women are about the same, am I wrong?
Karen | 01.11.06 - 8:41 pm | #

(Actually, in the current climate, I would probably stay single. If I wanted, I could still get plenty of what I need without any of what I don't need.)
Desert Cat

Desert Cat, What a terrible thing to say! I'm being serious here. I'm not talking aobut being immoral or using anyone. Actually, the type of man I seek is very rare, a devout practicing catholic. If I were willing to settle I could get married anytime I wanted to.
Karen | 01.11.06 - 8:47 pm | #

Well Karen there are plenty of Catholic guys looking for a good woman. Good women are recognized fast and marry at a younger age. Are you so some kind of reformed party-animal who converted after years of promiscuity, drug use and such? I find it hard to believe (I, being catholic myself) that you just couldn't find a good man.
Also, I know lots of guys who have married chinese, brazilian and colombian women..
bernie | 01.11.06 - 8:54 pm | #

I didn't say I would, just that I could. It wouldn't fit with my spirituality.
Desert Cat | Homepage | 01.11.06 - 9:16 pm | #

Well, Karen, you are not wrong, it's merely a preference.

When I was in my early twenties, I was amazed by how many women in my age group were totally focused on their college courses and future "careers" while sleeping around with serious low-life types of men. I also noticed that a lot men in my age group, also concentrated on their schoolwork/job work and were all around decent men. These men would tell me that they were completely ignored by these same types of (american) women. I myself never intended to get married and still don't so it didn't concern me directly, just through friends.

It must have been that "boring nice guy syndrome".

Anyway, as I approached my upper thirties, I was constantly approached by (american) women in my age group for long term relationships, the same types that completely ignored even me (an aspiring player) when I was younger in favor of the low-life types. Usually, during conversations over coffee, the first series of statements these american women would give me were something like, "I'm independent, I don't need any man for anything, therefore, I am a great catch."

Uh-huh.

Anyway, I live in the DC metro area where there is a large international community, especially, women from other countries. I know several Ukranians, mostly women with degrees, and on a first date, the one thing they tend to verbally emphasize immediately goes along the lines of, "I am a really good cook, I only keep a clean house, I like men and I am easy/peaceful to live with, my place or yours...."

Definitely the classic sign of a different culture. Usually, these Russian/Ukranian women are in their upper 20's to low 30's. They know my age. So apparently, preferences vary by culture.
SM777 | 01.11.06 - 9:16 pm | #

Karen, I'm in early 30's and would consider a woman my age. Adoption is always an option. I had a black/American Indian g/f and we were pretty serious for a while. She had hysterectomy (sp?) due to disease and we joked about adopting an asian kid, a blonde kid and a red headed kid just to make people freak out if they saw us together as a family.

The heart matters way more than the age.
Michael Maier | 01.11.06 - 9:26 pm | #

Where did Karen go?
bernie | 01.11.06 - 10:09 pm | #

No bernie,
Your theory is wrong. I was always a good girl.
Karen | 01.11.06 - 10:25 pm | #

Well I don't know what to tell you..maybe you give off the same vibe women who are not marriage material give, since you claim to be attractive and such. There is a woman in my work place that gives off the vibe of being the career-oriented, "I don't need a man", bitchy etc.. It turns out one of my friends started dating her and she's a 28 year old virgin, devoted to her church. Who would have thunk it?? Maybe you don't look aproachable, wear too mcuh make-up, or dress like a corporate career-oriented woman does.
bernie | 01.11.06 - 10:33 pm | #

Karen,
Are all the men here basically in agreement, that a woman over 30 should count on never getting married? I just turned 35.

My thoughts, statically your odds suck. I don't know any Catholic guys that age who are unmarried, well except for the guys from my high school class who have been married twice and the women left because the guy are full blown alkys, but thats your typical catholic farmer types.

As someone said above you had better be willing to give up your career, and show that raising a family and soon is your highest priority. Problem is that most guys won't want to start a family for a few years after they are married.

My personal opinion is that you would be wise to look for a man who has lost his wife through some tragedy, car accident, cancer, you get the idea, and who has children who need a mother. Find him, marry him, love his children and make a couple of your own. Too many career women want their own children but would never consider raising someone else's. They are to self-centered to consider being a mother to a child who has lost their birth mother.
farmer Tom | 01.11.06 - 10:34 pm | #

SM77,
Thats good to know. I was beginning to wonder. There are plenty of american woman who are not like the ones you describe. Would you reject them because of the majority? I Don't reject all American men just because most of them have disgusting morals or are brainwashed by the culture. I look for the exception.
Karen | 01.11.06 - 10:41 pm | #

Farmer Tom,
"My personal opinion is that you would be wise to look for a man who has lost his wife through some tragedy, car accident, cancer, you get the idea, and who has children who need a mother. "

Why wouldn't a man in my age range be interested in me, though? Are you saying that someone in my age range wouldn't be interested in me or that they don't exist? I am very feminine, gave up my career long ago. It seems there a fewer widows my age than men who are still single.
Karen | 01.11.06 - 10:48 pm | #

Andrea Yeats was a stay at home mom

Who? Or should I say "Who cares?" One example is meaningless. Now what about the other 150 million women in America?

It's prudent, it's not mandatory.

She doesn't have to work outside the home but she is just an idiot (i.e. not prudent) if she doesn't. Another example of feminism trying to shame fulltime mothers for choosing this path.

it's not something that should be a mark against her as marriage material.

Having an education and a job is not a mark against. But what are her goals? Putting off marriage and kids in favor of a job or career demonstrates where her priorities are at. Being a fulltime mom IS a career choice. Those who succeed have to choose one or the other and concentrate on it.

Is there some guarantee Im not aware of that states all women who wish to be married will get married, educated or not?

This is both a false absolute and red herring. Nothing in life is a sure thing but a woman plans and works toward being a good mom will have no trouble finding a man willing to die to make her dream come true. Note the words 'plans', 'works' and 'good'.

You don't want employers forced to hire women

You are absolutely right. Companies should not be forced to hire based on a quota. That would be fascist. They should be allowed to hire the best candidate for the job. Oh, wait, you were being sarcastic. Sorry.

you justify not paying them equally because of potencial child rearing duties

I have no problem with equal pay for equal work. I have no problem paying a woman who is committed to her career the same as a man. If she is going to try to moonlight another career on the side like say "almost fulltime motherhood" then no.

and you balk at the idea of them being well educated or working outside the home.

Again, I have no problem with either. It is a choice, however, that has an opportunity cost. You may choose one of three paths but you only get to choose one at a time. You can work outside the home. You can work inside the home. You can spread yourself between the two and do both poorly.
Viking | 01.11.06 - 10:49 pm | #

Bernie,
I look too young. I routinely meet 25 year old women who are shocked to find out that I am not younger than they are. When I was 25, everyone thought that I was in High school.
Karen | 01.11.06 - 10:57 pm | #

Karen, Since you asked, I will also say that the Catholic thing is part of the problem. I know a lot of Catholic guys, none of them waited till their thirtys to get married. Your chosen religion sends lots of conflicting messages to guys, marry and have lots of kids or don't marry and serve the church. To bad they won't allow the biblical office of pastor, you know the one, husband of one wife, I Timothy 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desires a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that rules well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

instead your religion teachs heresy 1 Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God has created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

Kind of hard for a normal red blooded male to serve your religion and not chose the family path as soon as oppertunity presents itself, ie marriage at an early age.

So you've been a good girl, you are the exception in my experience and that makes your odds even worse. Too bad you are so tied to your religion you might find a marriagable Christian guy close to your age who hasn't bought the lies of the Catholic church.
farmer Tom | 01.11.06 - 11:05 pm | #

Karen,
Why wouldn't a man in my age range be interested in me, though? Are you saying that someone in my age range wouldn't be interested in me or that they don't exist?

I'm saying odds are they don't exist. If they do, they are probably the playboy never intend to settle down type.

Do some basic math madame, if you wait till (you are 35) 37.5 to start a family you will be 55 when the first kid graduates from high school, if you want more than two kids, this almost guarantees being a 60 years old when the last kid graduates and into your seventies before you see grandkids. These is not most guys idea of smart family planning. Most guys who want children would like to live to see the grand children. Start at 25 and the picture is entirely different.
farmer Tom | 01.11.06 - 11:22 pm | #

Why wouldn't a man in my age range be interested in me, though? Are you saying that someone in my age range wouldn't be interested in me or that they don't exist? I am very feminine, gave up my career long ago. It seems there a fewer widows my age than men who are still single.

I think they would be interested in you. I am 37 and I think I would be interested in you. I would be a little concerned about high risk pregnancies but I would be very willing to take the chance and possibly have to adopt if I was confident that you really wanted to take on the traditional role of fulltime mother and wife. Honestly, I am pretty skeptical concerning women. I would be wondering if it was a bait and switch scam. I would ask the question "Why have you waited so long." Choosy is a good answer, but then I would wonder if you had realistic expectations and if I could live up to them. You sound like a great catch. I would keep up the search. Make sure you are sending the right signals. Be choosy but realistic. Perhaps broaden your search. A Christian is a must but what about a non-Catholic? What about a divorcee that had a good reason?
Viking | 01.11.06 - 11:22 pm | #

Karen, I'm 30..Too young?
bernie | 01.11.06 - 11:25 pm | #

Farmer Tom,

Many Catholic males my age chose to live chaste lives as thy prepared themselves for Marriage. For many, the right girl hasn't come along yet. They are in their thirties and still chaste and still waiting to find the right one. By the way, they are normal and healthy and joyful people. It isn't a matter of if you are a certain way, then you are guaranteed to be married by a certain age, these thing happen in God's own time. If you belive that my religion is heretical, then I can see why you would identify it as part of the problem, I'll let that go. I'm open to men of other religions as long as we have very similar values and they would agree to raising the children Catholic, but this is not preferable.
Karen | 01.11.06 - 11:26 pm | #

I look too young. I routinely meet 25 year old women who are shocked to find out that I am not younger than they are. When I was 25, everyone thought that I was in High school.

You better pray every day that your ovaries are as young as you look, and start hanging around where young guys are at. Guys 21 to 25 who are looking for a family.
farmer Tom | 01.11.06 - 11:28 pm | #

Oh, Ive seen many a book written for men who can't figure out why their impressive checkbook doesnt land them the ladies,

Names? Many a book ought to fill several pages at amazon.com.

and Tv shows with so called "eligble" millionaire bachelors who just cant find a woman. They're just ever so puzzled over it...they have money after all, a nice house..several cars what else could a woman want?

I'm a multimillionaire who uses a dating service because it's better money spent that way. My time is worth more; I lose money trying to sort the wheat from the chaff.
Malcolm | 01.11.06 - 11:38 pm | #

Karen, Many Catholic males my age chose to live chaste lives as thy prepared themselves for Marriage

Like I said I know lots of catholic guys, more than half my graduating class were catholic guys. None and I repeat for emphasis, none of them lived as you describe. I have never met in my 40 plus years on this earth a catholic guy who lived like you describe, I know at least 6 batchelor farmers who are catholic but none of them were exactly chaste, and one has a serious booze problem.
farmer Tom | 01.11.06 - 11:42 pm | #

"None and I repeat for emphasis, none of them lived as you describe."

I'd actualy have nominally disagree with you on that one. I have a college friend who is very Catholic and is saving himself for marriage. Of course, he's relaxed his standards somewhat.

When I first met him my freshman year, he was committed to marrying a woman who was also a virgin and firmly stated that he believed masturbation was wrong. But I "loosened" him up a little. (Oops. Am I the devil?) He still wants to save himself for marriage, but I was given a hearty thanks from his first and current girlfriend, who is a very sexual woman.

We'll see how long it lasts, but who knows, they might end up getting hitched.
Renee | 01.11.06 - 11:48 pm | #

"I am 37 and I think I would be interested in you. I would be a little concerned about high risk pregnancies..."

My aunt accidentally got pregnant at 44, had a completely normal pregnancy, and now has a very healthy three year old son. So don't lose all hope!
Renee | 01.11.06 - 11:54 pm | #

It's all relative farmer john. some so-called "bible christians" are hypocrates like my last girlfriend who smoked pot on a regular basis. Her justification? " I don't think God loves me any less becuase I do it" So some people who claim to be Catholic are really not,because they don't practice the faith. Bush is a "born again christian" yet his little war in Iraq has caused over 2000 amercian soldiers deaths. WWJD? certainly not start a war..
bernie | 01.11.06 - 11:54 pm | #

"Thats good to know. I was beginning to wonder. There are plenty of american woman who are not like the ones you describe. Would you reject them because of the majority? I Don't reject all American men just because most of them have disgusting morals or are brainwashed by the culture. I look for the exception."

Well, Karen, it's not really rejection, since I will never marry. I have too much common sense to get married in this country considering the predjudiced anit-male divorce laws and the fact that 75% of all divorces are initiated by women.

However, most of the american women I have encountered at work and on-campus do have that feminist, "I'm too independent to ever need a man for anything..." mindset. Hence, I have a preference for foreign women due to this specific attitude.
SM777 | 01.11.06 - 11:59 pm | #

Viking, Bernie, thank you! big hug! I knew that there was still hope!

The divorcee question is tricky. I wouldn't even be able to date someone with any amount of seriousness until he had applied for and obtained a Catholic annullment.

Farmer Tom,
Yes, unfortunately most catholics of my generation weren't raised to have a clue what their faith teaches. Worse yet, they were raided to believe that they could pick and choose which parts of it they wanted to believe. Just a sign of the times we live in.

I actually saw the Bachelor episode where the Doctor got rejected. That poor girl had done everything "right", everything that they told her would make her happy and fulfilled and attractive to men. She worked so hard to become "desireable". The moment of realization for her was ugly. She did actually admit it though, she said that apparently she had been focusing on developing all of the wrong qualities, that apparently those were not the ones men wanted. I thought that Carolus's comment above about this hopefully being the beginning of a journey of freedom was soo cool. Those of us who see through the mass brainwashing are very blessed and should have a little charity for those who haven't yet.
Karen | 01.11.06 - 11:59 pm | #

"She doesn't have to work outside the home but she is just an idiot (i.e. not prudent) if she doesn't. Another example of feminism trying to shame fulltime mothers for choosing this path."

She isn't an idiot. She's taking a huge risk. And sooo wrong on trying to shame mothers for choosing their paths its not funny. Get past your projections of radical feminism for half a second and try to get the point I'm making and not the one you want it to be.

"This is both a false absolute and red herring. Nothing in life is a sure thing but a woman plans and works toward being a good mom will have no trouble finding a man willing to die to make her dream come true. Note the words 'plans', 'works' and 'good'."

Bullshit. Plenty of women who dream of nothing but being a wife and mother don't find it. What do you suggest they do in the meantime? Stay at a half assed job they can quit with no notice just in case?

"Again, I have no problem with either. It is a choice, however, that has an opportunity cost. You may choose one of three paths but you only get to choose one at a time. You can work outside the home. You can work inside the home. You can spread yourself between the two and do both poorly.
Viking | 01.11.06 - 10:49 pm | #

-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------

So by applying that last sentence to men, fathers who work and spread themselves between home and work do both poorly?

Like you said, you cant have it both ways. Either working and raising children means both jobs are done poorly or it doesnt. Which parent is irrelevant.
kim | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 12:03 am | #

SM777,
Forign women are cool but there are many younger american women who are afraid to admit to anyone that they aren't independent and that they do need a man. They are afraid that guys will reject them if they admit that they aren't independent. Maybe you could find on with a good heart and save her.

Or ever consider becoming Catholic? The divorce rate among catholics mirrors the general population, but the divorce rate among catholics who actually follow the church's teaching, especially on the more controversial things like birth control, virtually nil!
Karen | 01.12.06 - 12:08 am | #

Karen, I hope you do find somebody and soon!

On another note, you really ought to examine your belief system in light of the Word of God, evern if you do find a man, your eternal destiny is dependent on a proper understanding of who Jesus Christ was and what he did for you and me. It's a free gift Karen, and it would be horrible to miss it because the group you belong to didn't get it right.
farmer Tom | 01.12.06 - 12:12 am | #

"It's all relative farmer john. some so-called "bible christians" are hypocrates like my last girlfriend who smoked pot on a regular basis. Her justification? " I don't think God loves me any less becuase I do it" So some people who claim to be Catholic are really not,because they don't practice the faith. Bush is a "born again christian" yet his little war in Iraq has caused over 2000 amercian soldiers deaths. WWJD? certainly not start a war.."

I personally don't see how smoking pot is anti-Christian, but okay.

You bring up an interesting point though, about hypocrisy. It's amusing, because hypocrisy is not a Christian sin- it's a moral relativist's sin (their only sin), and a sin popularized by our culture.
Renee | 01.12.06 - 12:17 am | #

Forbidding to marry

Come on. This is a stretch. Celibacy of the priesthood is a far cry from generally forbidding marriage and it is certainly not clear how specific Paul was trying to be here. Also, a priest is not entirely forbidden to marry. He must give up his holy orders to do so but he will not loose his salvation or be excommunicated.

I have a problems with a number of Catholic theological points but I am far more convinced of their faith in Jesus than I am of the faith of several many protestants who say Lord, Lord. The important point is do you believe that you are saved by faith or correct theology? Is there a church anywhere that gets everything right?

To become catholic you basically have to accept the following:

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. AMEN.

Are these not the same things we believe? Be sure to note that c in catholic is lower case. It means universal.

I believe that we are seeing a polarization of belief throughout Christianity. He is separating the wheat from the chaff. Goats and sheep, left and right, but those on the fence are disappearing. Some churches are endorsing abortion and homosexuality and even that Jesus was a great teacher but nothing more. At least Catholicism hasn't so drifted with the times. Bearing in mind that Jesus said that we will know them by their fruits, do you think that the work of Blessed Mother Teresa had been lead by the devil?
Viking | 01.12.06 - 12:17 am | #

So Farmer Tom what are you? Bible Christian? Who put the bible together?? There are so many chrisitan denominations in this country than anywhere else in the world..so who's right? who hold the truth? who are the real christians?
tough questions uh! of course it's easy to bash the catholic church,because of recent incidents with pedophile priests and such. We don't deny it happened, but you can't deny other denominations have similar problems or worse ones. Take that clown Joel Osteen.. He's a millionare, he SELLS God to people when God is free. He's a phoney who takes jabs at the catholic church, yet his sermons lack any biblical references. All he talks about is personal experices and sells books on self improvement. Is he a christian? he claims to be. I suggest you read about the catholic church and not let the media and your drunken buddies form an idea for you.
bernie | 01.12.06 - 12:24 am | #

Karen, My pastor grew up catholic, accepted Jesus Christ as his personal Savior at the age of 21 and is now in the ministry as a fundmental Bible believing pastor. I know your religion, it is not Biblical. Get yourself a Bible, read it and understand that it is God's Word, written to us so that we could know him and the free gift of his Son.
farmer Tom | 01.12.06 - 12:26 am | #

Renee, thanks. Lots of thirty five+ women get married and get pregnant right away. I know a catholic girl who wanted to get married at 22 and didn't get married until she was 35. She says that she would complain to God that she got the wrong "curse" .(In genesis, the result of Original sin is that women would have painful childbirth and that men would have to earn their living by the sweat of their brow.) She laughs now, because she says that her first childbirth was virtually painless. It seems God does have a sense of humor. I have hope too because I know that He has a plan. The general consensus among those who have to wait to meet the right one is that they were worth the wait.
Karen | 01.12.06 - 12:28 am | #

what's not biblical is the belief that the bible itself is the sole rule of faith. Where in the bible is that? Catholicism has scripture and apostolic tradition. Of course if you use the King James version and all other editions conviniently doctored by protestants to fit their brand of christianity you'll never see the biblical references to the catholic faith.
bernie | 01.12.06 - 12:38 am | #

bernie, I agree that there are numerous "christians" out there who are frauds, charlatans and liars. The Bible is not part of the problem however, it is people who claim to be "christian" yet reject the Word of God as their final authority for Faith and Practice. If you want to argue about which church is right I will agree that most are full of heresy, thats because most of them do not follow what the Bible teachs. I'm not saying I have all the answers only that the Bible does, not some "church", Holy Roman or otherwise.
farmer Tom | 01.12.06 - 12:39 am | #

some so-called "bible christians" are hypocrates

This is why I treat even "christian" women with skepticism. I met my ex-wife at a prayer vigil the evening of 9/11. She went to church. She read her bible. It was all an act. She stole $10k from our joint acount. She cheated on me. She told a friend that she planned to leave me after her kids were out of school. And she was generally a miserable, foul tempered harpy. So much for her good baptist upbringing.
Viking | 01.12.06 - 12:39 am | #

well it's time to go to bed in the east coast. I wish all of you guys luck. i hope all you guys find decent mates at some point in life. let's not forget the original subject of this board, regardless of religion it seems like american women are a raw deal,(with maybe a few exceptions 1% at best)
Good night..
bernie | 01.12.06 - 12:47 am | #

bernie, II Timothy 3:
14 But continue you in the things which you have learned and have been assured of, knowing of whom you have learned them;
15 And that from a child you have known the holy scriptures, which are able to make you wise to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

According to the Apostle Paul scriptue contains everything we need to know for teaching, for refuting incorrect doctine, for correcting false teaching, and for righteous living.
farmer Tom | 01.12.06 - 12:52 am | #

Viking, some so-called "bible christians" are hypocrates

agreed that's why Jesus talked about fruit(deeds), "by their fruit you will know them," we are to be fruit inspectors.
farmer Tom | 01.12.06 - 1:12 am | #

try to get the point I'm making and not the one you want it to be.

Saying that is it is not prudent for a stay at home mom to not also have a job outside the home makes it very clear that you believe that the "stay at home" part is not good. That investing in your family fulltime is not a very smart thing to do. I get your point. I don't agree with it.

Bullshit. Plenty of women who dream of nothing but being a wife and mother don't find it.

Bullshit^2. You must be thinking of those princesses who are not realistically counting the cost of being a good homemaker. Lots of women want to stay at home. It quite a bit harder to find a woman who wants to work at home.

So by applying that last sentence to men, fathers who work and spread themselves between home and work do both poorly?

Yes. That would be true. If he is trying to make up for what a mom can bring to the home, he will fall very short. A man who sacrifices fatherhood for his job will probably go farther and do better in that career than a devoted family man but a man who pours everything into being at home starves his family or forces mom to leave the home. A good father will put as much of his after hours and weekends into his family as he can but he will not be having nearly as much direct impact as his wife. Indirectly he is freeing her to be able to make that greater impact. A widower will do his level best to raise those kids but even he know that they would be better off with a mother at home. A Mr. Mom is never going to be as nurturing and loving as a good mom, and he will deprive his children of a real father figure. I know you are going to disagree with me here but Dad doesn't make as good a mom as Mom and Mom doesn't make as good a dad as Dad.
Viking | 01.12.06 - 1:22 am | #

it is people who claim to be "christian" yet reject the Word of God as their final authority for Faith and Practice.

But what is the Word of God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jesus is Logos, the Word of God. The gospels are the good news and the Bible is the best way of learning about God but salvation does not come from having an adequate knowledge of Jesus. It comes from faith in Jesus.

II Tim 3:15 And that from a child you have known the holy scriptures, which are able to make you wise to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

Notice what the scriptures are able to do, make you wise to salvation. They point us to salvation or reveal the way to salvation but they don't save. salvation comes 'through faith.' For that matter it doesn't come through a prayer either. It come through faith.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

I believe this is true. I believe that we have no better or even comperable source of knowledge for God. Yet it never says that scripture or its reading is necessary for salvation. No one come to the Father but by the Son and our salvation is through faith in Him. Catholics do believe that salvation come through Christ alone. That is good enough for me to call them brothers and sisters. After that I may start arguing with my brothers and sisters about details.
Viking | 01.12.06 - 2:02 am | #

Andrea Yeats was a stay at home mom.

anecdotal in the face of thousands of families studied. Very convincing kimmie.

. But really, you just have THEIR best interests at heart.

Yes, I am, you on the other hand are actively shooting them in the foot. I not only have their best interests at heart, but their children's as well. What do you have to offer them? That's right, nothing.
Spacebunny | 01.12.06 - 3:36 am | #

Gee SB, looks like we're the only ones up. Actually, I just woke a couple of hours ago. Well, if I ever find a woman, it would appear most conducive that we both be vampires for the time being... 8)

Kim, do you ever come up for air? Chill dudette, before you hyperventilate...

Karen, you sound like a very nice and warm lady. I'm looking too, however I'm prolly outside of your age threshold. Just turned 47, but most folks say (like you) I look 10 years of less. I guess it's more of who I hang out with. The majority of folks I "hang" with are 10+ less my age.

"We don't stop playing because we grow old..... we grow old because we stop playing."
- Don Henley

The pic on my homepage is about 3 years old. Looks havn't changed much from there. Hair is longer, with tinges of gray. I'm a "frustrated" musician among other things. My homepage (although a bit atrophied) tells you most of what one needs to know about my personality and character. It's practically all there....

(geeze, I feel like I'm posting a personal ad...) [puking emoticon please?]

Or ever consider becoming Catholic?

Now this would be the kicker. To preface this, 3/4 of my family (on my dad's side) profess the RCC faith (although I'm not certain as to what % actually confess this). Understand, my father is a retired Lutheran pastor. I, at present, still hold to the Lutheran confessions. I have yet to find doctrinal error with them. My dad buried both his older brother and sister (he was the baby) in the RC rite. I still recall the "hail marys" at my last cousin's funeral. Interesting enough, my younger brother married a "lite" RC, who later accepted and confirmed to the Lutheran confessions. Her mother was born/raised Lutheran, but married a Catholic. Thus their subsequent family was RCC. My sister-in-law's father just passed, and I will be attending his funeral this week. For my father and I, it will another interesting observation of an RCC internment. I'm going to keep my ears attentive this time out for the word "purgatory."

I had this very same problem with my last "love interest" a couple of years back. She was devout RCC. I believe she would have had more designs of bringing me to the pope, than I was intent of bringing her to the "confessions." Basically an oil and water situation. That relationship prolly would have never worked.

Since communication is paramount to me in any future relationship that our generous and loving Creator may ever grant in his wisdom, one prerequisite for any future mate of mine will be to engage on at least one (1) comprehensive reading of "RULERS OF EVIL." There is no chance of embarking on to the "next level" until we have discussed this phenomenon. Yes, it is best to approach this first as a "phenomenon." It is not a reality to the majority...
Dread | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 5:49 am | #

So by applying that last sentence to men, fathers who work and spread themselves between home and work do both poorly?

Like you said, you cant have it both ways. Either working and raising children means both jobs are done poorly or it doesnt. Which parent is irrelevant.

I call "BULLSHIT." The question is being the full time stay at home parent or not.
Malcolm | 01.12.06 - 5:50 am | #

Ah, damn. Malcolm beat me to it.

It's what I get for sleeping of nights.
The Gonzman | 01.12.06 - 11:04 am | #

call "BULLSHIT." The question is being the full time stay at home parent or not.
Malcolm | 01.12.06 - 5:50 am | #

-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------
Exactly. And if you're not a full time stay at home parent, you're doing your parent job poorly and your outside job poorly.

Even if you're the male parent.

"A Mr. Mom is never going to be as nurturing and loving as a good mom, and he will deprive his children of a real father figure. I know you are going to disagree with me here but Dad doesn't make as good a mom as Mom and Mom doesn't make as good a dad as Dad.
Viking | 01.12.06 - 1:22 am | #

-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------

Then why all the complaints about men not getting custody of their kids?

For all those that think this is unfair and feminist caused discrimination against men, now you have an example of the root of it. And it isn't feminists.
kim | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 1:02 pm | #

"Saying that is it is not prudent for a stay at home mom to not also have a job outside the home makes it very clear that you believe that the "stay at home" part is not good. That investing in your family fulltime is not a very smart thing to do. I get your point. I don't agree with it."

The stay at home is fine. I'm just concerned that with no back up or education those stay at home moms will get screwed big time if something happens. I don't think thats an acceptable situation for stay at home moms to face. They sacrifice enough as it is, the reward for that shouldnt end up being a maid until you drop, just to pay bills. They deserve better.
kim | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 1:08 pm | #

Exactly. And if you're not a full time stay at home parent, you're doing your parent job poorly and your outside job poorly.

Even if you're the male parent.

Go hence from here, Kimmee, find your logic instructor, and beg to be beaten for failing to learn your lessons.

You attempt to remove context from a statement, which, sadly, yet falls short by leaps and bounds of the definition of "Sophmoric."

Attend: The chief source of much angst, writings, and hand-wringing by the modern working mom is her guilt at being a part time parent, instead of a full time SAHM. It is quite correctly pointed out that one cannot have it all - you cannot succeed at being a full-time parent while having a full time job - a career, if your prefer.

Whether this makes her a failure as a parent is another discussion entirely; despite the bullheaded insistances of the "gender as a construct" crowd - a cretinous bunch of assbags, at least - most normal women (normal in a statistical sense) desire, innately and intrinsically - to be full-time mothers to their offspring.

(See this is what produces this bunch of women who get written about and commented on about feeling guilty - that whole statistical significance of their incidence, despite the ancedotal evidence of the out of normal range women who feel no such guilt).

The failure does not lie in being a parent, but in being a FULL TIME parent. While it is true that many of those who fail at full time parenting also fail at parenting, the two are not necessarily linked in a causative relationship.

As for your second piece of drivel, (a) Viking is one person, and not representative, and (b) the chiefest complaint from the Men's Rights types are in primary physical custody effectively resulting in them being locked out of one's children's lives. Which doesn't take a great leap of intuitive thought. Hence, in order to have *ANY* relationship with their children, they require primary physical custody.
The Gonzman | 01.12.06 - 1:38 pm | #

Hence, in order to have *ANY* relationship with their children, they require primary physical custody.
The Gonzman | 01.12.06 - 1:38 pm | #

-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------
And the primary care parent generally tends to be....... feel free to fill in the blank here.

If you're going to state flat out that to be a "good" parent you must stay home and not work outside the home, coming back later and saying " oh, I only meant mothers" is weak.

If splitting your time between the two is less desirable, then splitting your time between the two is less desriable period.

If mothers do the best job at raising children and raising children while staying home, then custody should always go to the mother (unless there is abuse) and the father can provide the means and isn't necessary to the 24/7 primary care. If the father plays a more intregal part in child rearing, and is splitting his roles, then according to people here, he's doing a poor job since it's not possible to do the best parenting job and work at the same time. If his role is just as important as the mothers, then he gets the benefit of the same standards being applied. If he is just as important, then the bar shouldn't be set lower. It should be raised.
kim | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 3:06 pm | #

And the primary care parent generally tends to be....... feel free to fill in the blank here.

Define primary care? An indifferent babysitter who is barely there and does the minimum, or an engaged parent who gives their all, even if they have to work?

If you're going to state flat out that to be a "good" parent you must stay home and not work outside the home, coming back later and saying " oh, I only meant mothers" is weak.

YOU are stating this. Jeez, you feminuts just love shoving words into people's mouths and erecting strawmen once you run out of substance, don't you?

Okay. I just ran this by my seven year old niece, and she gets it. It's all one syllable words. I hope you can follow. I'll type slow.

Stay at home mom.
^^^^ ^^^^
Stay Home.

See how that works, chickie-poo? If you want to be a Stay at home mom, and don't stay home, you're not going to do a very good job of it now, are you? In fact, right out of the gate, you've disqualified yourself without even taking a step.

Works for a man who decides to be a Stay at Home dad and goes off to work. It's as dumb as a sack of hammers.

I guess I can break out the crayolas and post a scan somewhere if you have trouble with that...

If splitting your time between the two is less desirable, then splitting your time between the two is less desriable period.

Again, no dear, do try to address the argument being made. Trying to be a SAHM and going to work is a logical and physical impossibility. It is diametrically opposed.

If mothers do the best job at raising children and raising children while staying home, then custody should always go to the mother (unless there is abuse) and the father can provide the means and isn't necessary to the 24/7 primary care.

If that was so, yes. Evidences please?

If the father plays a more intregal part in child rearing, and is splitting his roles, then according to people here, he's doing a poor job since it's not possible to do the best parenting job and work at the same time.

Wrong. Strawman.

If his role is just as important as the mothers, then he gets the benefit of the same standards being applied. If he is just as important, then the bar shouldn't be set lower. It should be raised.

Yes, it should be raised for mothers. Far too many SAHMs do little more than stay home, and immediately upon dad coming home foist the child and chores (which she didn't even start) on him, claiming that they were too tired from watching junior in the playpen all day, and couldn't get a thing done.

See, staying at home - to be a Stay at Home Mother - is just a start. But that reflects your feminist bias that such women don't do sod all - which is why feminists generally make piss-poor SAHMs.
The Gonzman | 01.12.06 - 3:26 pm | #

if you're not a full time stay at home parent, you're doing your parent job poorly

Look a little closer at my argument concerning a good father as compared to the extremes of being an absent father or mr. mom. I don't believe fatherhood is best expressed in a full time context, at least as we are defining full time for motherhood. Another way to look at it is that fatherhood is best expressed by spending a significant amount of time working hard and providing security. So I don't think that a father is doing his parenting job poorly when he is does what is traditionally thought of as the father's roll.

Then why all the complaints about men not getting custody of their kids?

This is a false analogy. In this case, what is best for the kids, a married and loving mom and dad, has already passed. At this point you are simply trying to salvage what you can. It does not necessarily follow that mom is the best choice for custody. With dad out of the picture mom will not be able to do her role fulltime and therefore looses her advantage in parenting. The case should be decided solely on the merit of what would be best for the children. I would say that the most significant factor should be to favor the party that did not cause the divorce. For example if one parent cheated on the other then that parent obviously valued there desires above providing a stable home for their children. All things being equal, if any assumption could be made, I would think that is would be in favor of the father since he has a much better chance of finding a new mate at this later point in life.

The stay at home is fine. ... I don't think thats an acceptable situation for stay at home moms to face.

This post truly makes no sense. Is it, or is it not acceptable for a woman to be a stay at home mom?
Viking | 01.12.06 - 3:34 pm | #

If splitting your time between the two is less desirable, then splitting your time between the two is less desriable period.

Only if 'splitting your time' is applied in the same context. Motherhood and Fatherhood is not the same thing. This is a classic feminist assumption.

coming back later and saying " oh, I only meant mothers" is weak.

Why? Perhaps I was tired and I am sorry if I didn't point this out earlier. Failing to bring up a valid point in a timely manner may make for weak retoric but not necessarily weak logic. A points validity stands on its own merit not on its timing.
Viking | 01.12.06 - 3:50 pm | #

Far too many SAHMs do little more than stay home, and immediately upon dad coming home foist the child and chores (which she didn't even start) on him, claiming that they were too tired from watching junior in the playpen all day, and couldn't get a thing done.

Wow, sounds like my ex. We had a 1100 sqft 3 bedroom place. She was a SAHM with a 15 year old and an 18 year old. That house never got clean and a meal was cooked no more than 3 times in a week. And 3 times was a good week. What the hell? But talk about everything going to shit if you suggested that maybe we could save money if she cooked a little more often. I swear that 18 year old did more housework than her worthless mother ever did. That's why I had no problem paying for most of her wedding this last year even as her mother and I were splitting up.
Viking | 01.12.06 - 4:14 pm | #

This post truly makes no sense. Is it, or is it not acceptable for a woman to be a stay at home mom?
Viking | 01.12.06 - 3:34 pm | #

-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------
Good lord.

Ok, just to clear it up, STOP right now, with thinking I do not support women who want to stay home. Stop.

Now, it's acceptable to be a stay at home mom. Its UNACCPETPABLE to treat stay at home mothers like unskilled undesirable workers if they have to enter the work force due to divorce or death of the husband. Right now, the choices for stay at home moms that face either divorce or widowhood are

1) be covered by insurance and hope its enough

2) get a crappy job if you have no higher education or work skills

3) go back to school and work

4) welfare

Hows that for a thank you to all those moms that sacrificed for their children and husbands? Society pays little more than lip service to stay at home moms. Oh its great, its best for the children..we should support those stay at home moms in their choice......unless and until they lose the husband, then they're on their own. Suddenly that support is gone and "get a job" is tossed out as an answer. Forget that its hard to get a good paying job when you've spent 15 years staying at home or that its been over 20 since you've had any schooling of any kind. It's a doubled edged sword. Keep your resume updated and you're a shitty mom. Don't and you could face poverty. The choices are bad and worse.

Thats reality. So when I say " cover your ass, you might need it", NO I'm NOT trying to shame or demeen their decision. Im trying to keep a rather noble decision from ending in disaster because no one gives a shit what happens to them later, and sure can't be motivated to help.
kim | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 6:25 pm | #

See, staying at home - to be a Stay at Home Mother - is just a start. But that reflects your feminist bias that such women don't do sod all - which is why feminists generally make piss-poor SAHMs.
The Gonzman | 01.12.06 - 3:26 pm | #

-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------
No, what all this reflects is that you have your head so far up your own ass that you cant or wont see that I have never once said stay at home moms made the wrong choice, dont do anything or aren't needed.

Im just trying to figure out this logic

(stay at home parent =good, but only if its the mother}
+
{mothers staying at home= primary care parent)
=
fathers should get custody.
kim | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 6:31 pm | #

"Forign women are cool but there are many younger american women who are afraid to admit to anyone that they aren't independent and that they do need a man. They are afraid that guys will reject them if they admit that they aren't independent. Maybe you could find on with a good heart and save her."

Hello Karen, if that's the case, then those young american women are in big trouble. I have more important things to risk my freedom and property on than attempting to save deluded women. There are a lot of risks involved in trying to save young american women. Such as, false accusations of rape, false accusations of stalking, false accusations of paternity, the list goes on. These are very good reasons to avoid them altogether.

If you want to hold someone responsible for all of this, try the feminazis. You shouldn't go around making suggestions to men that they risk their property and freedom to make you and your friends feel better. Do it yourself first. I avoid dealing with young american women, (except close female relatives), due to all of the problems they seem to enjoy causing.

Also, there are simply too many foreign women competing for me (and other men my age) for me to even waste my time dealing with those two legged headaches.

A younger Nice Guy (tm) friend of mine, who comes to me for advice, was recently distraught because he was dumped by his girlfriend who is a "liberated" american woman. I told him, "Congratulations, she did you a great big favor. You should pity the future emotional tampon she eventually latches on to after she's finished whoring around with bad boys." After thinking it through, he was relieved.
SM777 | 01.12.06 - 7:02 pm | #

Wow, sounds like my ex. We had a 1100 sqft 3 bedroom place. She was a SAHM with a 15 year old and an 18 year old. That house never got clean and a meal was cooked no more than 3 times in a week. And 3 times was a good week. What the hell? But talk about everything going to shit if you suggested that maybe we could save money if she cooked a little more often. I swear that 18 year old did more housework than her worthless mother ever did. That's why I had no problem paying for most of her wedding this last year even as her mother and I were splitting up.
Viking | 01.12.06 - 4:14 pm | #
----------------------------------------------

Viking, it's the many situations like this that make me thank God I never married. Unfortunately, I foolishly came close at one time when I was younger. I'm glad someone wiser than myself talked me out of it.
SM777 | 01.12.06 - 7:04 pm | #

SM77,

I was suggesting that you find an american woman with a good heart, someone sweet. They are out there. I know many who went along with the career thing while they had to but were so relieved to be allowed to stay home with the children. The fact that they have been fed lies about what men want by our culture will not make them treat you badly. A woman like this will strive to serve and love you more and more, the more you strive to serve and love her.

Men are as clueless about how to discern character in women as women are in men. The kind of woman who would act like Viking's ex are not the majority, and the clues are there berforehand. At least 99% of American men are damaged goods too. They are self-centered, pornography addicted and deluded. We don't have an easier time of it than you do.

Compare your comments to the comments of Taylor and Carolus at the top. They have a gentlemanly compassion what do you sound like. Let me put it this way, what would you think I sounded like if I said that I intented to stay single for the rest of my life and never let myself get used by a man because they are all evil?
Karen | 01.12.06 - 8:03 pm | #

cover your ass, you might need it

But you are still saying that she should cover her ass by maintaining a job. If she does that how can she be a stay at home mom?

unless and until they lose the husband, then they're on their own.

This is exactly why the Bible says that pure religion is caring for widows and orphans in there distress. A fulltime mom is very vulnerable precisely because she doesn't work out the home. What your list didn't include was options like her being taken care of by others in her family or community. It use to be the norm for an older widow to be cared for by her sons. A younger widow would be cared for by her husband's brothers or friends. Remember Jesus on the cross and what he said to his mother and John?

So who exactly is saying that the woman who looses her husband is on her own and that no one gives a shit what happens to them? It not the patriarchal christians. It's feminism and those who pay only lip service to their Christianity.
Viking | 01.12.06 - 9:04 pm | #

I am with you SM777. I am not sure I would limit it just to American women though. Pretty much all western nations have this problem and as we push our values on the east, their women will go to hell as well. I can see what Karen is saying. There are good american women. The are just hidden within the smallest of subcultures here in america (I envy the Amish) and as our society ferrets out these, usually christian, sub-groups and forces them into the educational machine they will disappear.

You say that women are afraid to
admit that they aren't independent.

I believe that women can be independent. At least reasonably so in our society. The problem is that so many of them, like Kim, refuse to understand that to be most effective as a mother they must allow themselves to become dependent on men. It is this that they refuse to do, and so end up ruining their kids, their marriage or both.
Viking | 01.12.06 - 9:35 pm | #

I've personally known men who have married foreign non-Western countries women. If these women are end-all be-all as wives, why did these men come on to ME? Another one who did not come on to me was such a rat that nobody liked him and it was quite conceivable that he would not have been able to find an American wife even if he wanted to. I can only imagine the woman married him for her own selfish motives. It seems to me that women from these third world countries would say and do anything to snag an American man just to get out of the hell hole they're in. This does not guarantee a happily ever after scenario for the marriage. There are many cases where these women gain independence and then dump the poor sap.
Taylor | 01.12.06 - 10:30 pm | #

Continuing from previous post:

I've read quit a few posts suggesting that men find women from such countries. You are deluding yourselves if you think this will solve all your problems. She will get other family members entry to the country, then you're in for a whole slew of other problems dealing with the needs, requirements, demands from her family. You don't know what you're in for. These people do not have the same mindset as Americans so expect your life to get very complicated.
Taylor | 01.12.06 - 10:41 pm | #

To sum up previous 2 posts in Vox's own words: "It's never pretty when reality intrudes upon fantasy."

Taylor | 01.12.06 - 11:33 pm | #

If you're going to state flat out that to be a "good" parent you must stay home and not work outside the home, coming back later and saying " oh, I only meant mothers" is weak.

Kim, may I suggest a book called The Fascinating Woman by Helen Andelin. I promise you'll find it interesting. It is practical advice about how to make your man (and yourself in the meantime) very happy. Basically, men are happy when we appreciate what they do to provide for us, when we make ouselves vulnerable and dependent ad admire the manly qualities that they have and that they use to serve us. They want us to need them and they want to need us. They want us to be angelic creatures who are neat and clean and capable woman when it comes to running the house and raising the children and yet be still childlike in our dependence on them.

My point is that Viking is applying a double standard but that it's a good double standard. We need to be protected, they want to protect us, and marriages go bad when we show men that we don't need them by becoming independent and telling them that tehy are irrelevant and, (in the process), developing manly instead of womanly traits in ourselves in order to be able to be able to be independent. I think he is trying to say that children need their father to be a provider and they need their parents to have a happy marriage, and they need at least on full time parent there all the time. Also, keeping the house and the children clean, while making a home by preparing food and doing nice things for our husbands, etc., etc., can't be done properly by a part-time homemaker.

You do have a point about the practicalities. I'm living proof because I'm having a hard time making enough money to feed my self with the "girlie" jobs I hold while waiting to meet my future husband. We no longer have fathers and mothers who are willing to let us live at home until we are married, and we no longer have a society that takes care of it's elderly or impaired. Still, I refuse to play the "you might get divorced so you have to be practical" game. There are many terrible things in life that might happen, but God does provide and it will be okay.
Karen | 01.13.06 - 12:00 am | #

Karen, you have substantially hurt yourself by waiting so long to marry. If you are going to try to have a real marriage (bearing kids with your own eggs within it), I strongly suggest you be open (if nonpushy/nonthreatening) about letting on that you are ready to have kids. The guys that want that, will respond to it. (I know I do.)

I suggest you read the series by Bernard Chapin (online) on "The Quagmire of Older Women". It has 3 or 4 parts.

BTW, what part of the country do you live in?
MinnesotaSmith | 01.13.06 - 12:13 am | #

Taylor,

Thank you for that point. Our generation was given a raw deal to be sure, but there is no where to run from these challenges. More and more people will wake up, because our current mindset is so insane that it is unsustainable. But, in the meantime, despite it all, there is hope. And if we are willing to strive to embrace our crosses and offer these thing to Him, who is in charge, then there will be joy and redemption.
Karen | 01.13.06 - 12:14 am | #

Minnesota Smith,

I hardly think that I qualify as an "older woman". I have been wanting very much to be married since I was twenty, it just hasn't happened yet. Part of the problem is finding a man I can respect in this day and age. I appreciate your advice about letting men know that I want children but this is not an issue since the kind of men I date are good Catholics and this is very much assumed. I don't want to read the article you are suggesting because I'm afraid it might make me cry or something. At what age did I become an "older woman"? I live in Detroit btw.
Karen | 01.13.06 - 12:24 am | #

Okay, if we're going to get personal...

No, what all this reflects is that you have your head so far up your own ass that you cant or wont see that I have never once said stay at home moms made the wrong choice, dont do anything or aren't needed.

In that case show me where *I* said any of the below.

Im just trying to figure out this logic

(stay at home parent =good, but only if its the mother}

Show me where I said this.
+
{mothers staying at home= primary care parent)

Show me where I said this.
=
fathers should get custody.

Show me where I advocated this.

Bad Troll. No Biscuit.

Now, pull your head up out of your ass, and actually address the arguments people make to you, instead of cherry picking random excerpts from different people and losing track - and let's not forget quoting things out of context - and addressing imaginary arguments according to the fantasy script your are writing in your own mind.

This is why you seem to be treated, and look, like a fucking idiot.
The Gonzman | 01.13.06 - 12:28 am | #

A strong, independent and INTELLIGENT woman who works in medicine would realise that the problem of so-called old eggs has a simple solution... put a bunch of them on ice and then TAKE YOUR TIME IN FINDING A MATE.

Heck as a male target of the predatory entrapment minded female (and they do develop a somewhat mercinary attitude when the fuse burns low) l am thinking of putting some seed on ice and getting snipped. Then again, l wouldnt be surprised if my seed gets mixed up and finds its way into a same sex couple's life only to be hit with child support when they break up 9dont larf, this happened in Sweden to a donor male).

Haste is a mark of desperation and every woman who doesnt live in a cave knows... DESPERATION is VERY UNNATTRACTIVE.

Wake up and smell the formaldehyde, doc.
modernwimmins | 01.13.06 - 3:43 am | #

"...It's a doubled edged sword. Keep your resume updated and you're a shitty mom. Don't and you could face poverty. The choices are bad and worse." -- kim

kim - Unfortunately, you have absolutely NAILED it.

Now the hard part:

This is exactly why the Bible is so condemning of exactly what our society has done -- by replacing the commandments of God with the traditions of men:

Idolatry (false gods), reliance on man's (including both sexes here) strength and hubris, and replacement of His plans for marriage, covering, and provisions for "widows and orphans" with the State.

What you have nicely described is the ultimate OPPOSITE of Biblical Patriarchy -- and the results are just as clear.
Mark Call | 01.13.06 - 11:21 am | #

MN Smith,

That quagmire article, at least the first part of it is great. I especially liked

Should the reader ever be in a bad mood, give yourself a free case of the giggles by imagining a date with Maureen.

That is humorous in the 'not in a million years sense.' I mean, who would go on such a date. Even if it was part of a contest prize.

"You have won a spectacular evening out with the enchanting and successful Maureen Dowd. You will be taken by limousine to the finest restaurant in New York and then on to latest Broadway show followed by..." uhhhh, yeah, Thanks but, uhh, I will be having my molars removed using C4 that evening. Thanks, bye.
Anonymous | 01.13.06 - 11:38 am | #

Nuts, my name vanished. That was me MN.

Mark. Here, here. Dead on.
Viking | 01.13.06 - 11:41 am | #

"As have all other decent and noble sentiments of bygone days when people were expected to at the very least try to act like the human beings that God intended for us to be.

Dread"

Did not God intend us to remain in the Garden of Eden forever? Did not God warn Adam and Eve NOT to eat of the tree of knowledge?

Seems to me that Adam and Eve were the intended final product that just didn't work out. We, as the supposed descendants, were never in the original plan.

Oh yes... if god created everything, he also created the serpent. Sounds like a real nasty double-cross to me.
LC | 01.13.06 - 1:08 pm | #

I've read quit a few posts suggesting that men find women from such countries. You are deluding yourselves if you think this will solve all your problems. She will get other family members entry to the country, then you're in for a whole slew of other problems dealing with the needs, requirements, demands from her family. You don't know what you're in for. These people do not have the same mindset as Americans so expect your life to get very complicated.
Taylor | 01.12.06 - 10:41 pm | #
-------------------------------------

It sounds as if someone doesn't like the competition.
SM777 | 01.13.06 - 2:58 pm | #

"Seems to me that Adam and Eve were the intended final product that just didn't work out. We, as the supposed descendants, were never in the original plan.

Oh yes... if god created everything, he also created the serpent. Sounds like a real nasty double-cross to me." -- LC

Not necessarily, LC. "Why good & evil?" is a whole Torah study, but here's the simplified 101 version from an engineer:

If you were God, and wanted to create a companion (or set of them):

and the resulting Things were just "yes-robots" --

(they do what you ask, but have no free will, in other words)

how satisfying is that?

Unless there's TRUE 'free-will' (and a genuine choice to obey, love -- or not) --

then the creation may just be boring.

The one we have, and the One who made it - is infinitely more interesting.
Mark Call | 01.13.06 - 3:06 pm | #

Ah, free will.

Can one love good unless they are free to choose to love it? No.

So, they must therefore have to be able to choose to love something else, IOW, evil.

What is evil? That which causes suffering.

Is suffering real unless it causes harm? Many philosophies posit that such is mere illusion - if that is so, it is a sham.

This is why evil must exist for there to be free will.

And why those who complain that no real God would allow evil to exist secretly desire to be slaves, and to have no free will - and it also explains why they have no compunctions about inflicting such slavery upon others.

God is a Libertarian.
The Gonzman | 01.13.06 - 3:45 pm | #

It sounds as if someone doesn't like the competition.

Um, did you read where these guys with foreign wives are coming on to me? My point was that these women must NOT be much competition. Obviously. in your haste to get off your petty remark, you failed to comprehend what was plainly written.
Taylor | 01.13.06 - 4:27 pm | #

"But you are still saying that she should cover her ass by maintaining a job. If she does that how can she be a stay at home mom?"

Um, no. Education is a far better bet.

"They want us to be angelic creatures who are neat and clean and capable woman when it comes to running the house and raising the children and yet be still childlike in our dependence on them."

And there's my problem. I'm no longer a child. A child isnt capable of running a household or being emotionally mature enough for a marriage. Pretending to be one is beneath me. Sorry, it just is. I'm not going to trick you into thinking Im one so you can be a meal ticket. That in no way respects men either.

We're human. Not angelic creatures and Im sorry if that fact is something they cannot handle. Thats not really my problem. Trying to be perfect for someone else is a recipe for disaster. It's also rather manipulative.
kim | Homepage | 01.13.06 - 5:41 pm | #

We're human. Not angelic creatures

Kim: I have to agree with you on this. I mean even Eve was not so angelic after all, was she? And from there we've gone downhill. Given the corrupt environment we're raised in, it is indeed very unrealistic to expect women to be angelic beings - or men for that matter. If women are "bone of my bone" as stated in the bible, then they should not expect more from us than they do from themselves. Would these same men who expect such from a woman consider themselves to be angelic beings? I've met some truly gentle men who I would call an angel and I could see how they should expect their wife to be the same, but the majority fall far from that mark.
Taylor | 01.13.06 - 6:52 pm | #

"I'm no longer a child. A child isnt capable of running a household or being emotionally mature enough for a marriage. Pretending to be one is beneath me. Sorry, it just is. I'm not going to trick you into thinking Im one so you can be a meal ticket. That in no way respects men either."

No one is talking about pretending or tricking. Those are not the motives. Also didn't mean to imply that we are not fallen creatures, I was just talking about what we should strive for. A woman can be an adult and let herself be taken care of all at the same time, you are really stretching to try to find an argument.
Karen | 01.13.06 - 7:07 pm | #

Let herself be taken care of is fine.

Not being able to decide when that is isn't.
kim | Homepage | 01.13.06 - 7:49 pm | #

Are you saying that we musn't let ourselves be in too vulnerable a position lest he take advantage? I'm not scared.
Karen | 01.13.06 - 10:12 pm | #

No, Im saying that I have the sense to know when I need help or when I need to be taken care of and I'll ask for it when I need it as opposed to just having it decided and done for me because I've put on a false childlike dependency mask to make you "feel like a real man".

It's nice to be needed, but I'd much rather have someone with me because they chose to be and not because they had to be.

One thing about no fault divorce no one seems to see, is that if you're still married, the chances are high that its because your spouse WANTS to be married to you. They're there because they want to be, not because there's no way out.
kim | Homepage | 01.14.06 - 10:56 am | #

So you think the contract of legal marriage is just a fiction? No argument here. It's a tax status and tool for taking the more financial successful spouse's assets in a divorce.

Nothing more, legally speaking.

But I've still never read a good argument for letting one party nullify the contract without cause.

But then again, I think personal bankruptcy laws are ridiculous in application too.
Michael Maier | 01.14.06 - 2:25 pm | #

Depends on what you consider cause.

Listening to the sound of you breathing at night causes an overwhelming urge to smother you with a pillow is a pretty good cause to leave. If they'd rather gouge out their eyes with fork and acid douche the sockets than touch you, let em go.
kim | Homepage | 01.14.06 - 3:35 pm | #

Kim says" No, Im saying that I have the sense to know when I need help or when I need to be taken care of and I'll ask for it when I need it as opposed to just having it decided and done for me because I've put on a false childlike dependency mask to make you "feel like a real man".

I'm not suggesting anyone put on an act. If you want to toughen yourself up and let you man know that you can survive just as well without him, that's your choice. It was just a suggestion. Most tough and independent women I know, though , are miserable deep-down. I think it's the tough, independant "act" which is really a farce. Truth is, we do need them.
Karen | 01.14.06 - 8:36 pm | #

Truth is, we do need them.

We need them to the extent that they treat us and our children decently. Before women gained a foothold in the workplace, they were completely under the husband's control. Many wives and children have had to suffer the man's mistreatment - whether is was taking her for granted, physically and mentally abusing her and the children, cheating on her, witholding money from her with which to run the household, etc. Men are only human and having completely dependent and weaker individuals under their control is not thus inconceivable to imagine that they would become the helpless targets of the man's personal faults. Under these all too common circumstances women had no recourse. They had to endure whatever mistreatment the husband chose to inflict upon the family. I'm not saying that women are never the cause of problems in a marriage, but the complete dependency that you seem to think is so important has made victims of many a generation of women and their children. The backlash was inevitable.

I guess the moral of the story is that a woman should be very careful when she chooses a husband to whom she will look to for all her needs, love and be a good father to their children. Even with the best intentions, no one knows what the future will bring. People change, circumstances change, society changes. I'm not sure what the ideal balance is, but being put in a position of complete helplessness to do anything about one's and one's offspring gross mistreatment - should it arise - is not the ideal. It just makes it too damned easy for a man to be less than noble towards his dependents.
Taylor | 01.14.06 - 10:05 pm | #

I'm not suggesting anyone put on an act. If you want to toughen yourself up and let you man know that you can survive just as well without him, that's your choice. It was just a suggestion. Most tough and independent women I know, though , are miserable deep-down. I think it's the tough, independant "act" which is really a farce. Truth is, we do need them.
Karen | 01.14.06 - 8:36 pm | #

-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------
How far has your take on it gotten you?

Honestly, has it gotten you closer to your goal?

I've been married and my husband had no problem with me being independant and not needy. He knew I was there because I wanted to be. And vice versa.
kim | Homepage | 01.14.06 - 11:32 pm | #

if you tried 20 electrical appliances in a single power socket and none of them worked,what would you think?a man would assume that the socket was broken,a woman would think it was the appliances that were broken,and alas that is how women today view men,it just does not occur to them that maybe they(women) are the ones with the problem and untill they do realise this and take steps to correct it its going to be awful lonely for these women.
andy bould | 01.15.06 - 3:02 am | #

Karen, you became an "older woman" somewhere between 27-32. At this point, now, over 80% (conservatively; probably closer to about 92%) of your fertility is behind you, wasted, and your looks peaked (and have been declining ever since) probably 18 years ago. That is, your physical appeal has been dropping for over half your life. Only a woman who was an 8+ (on the 1-10 physical appeal scale men use) at her peak can IMO deal with having to compete (with women who have NOT lost so much ground) halfway easily after having lost 3+ points, and even then has to lower her sights a bit. Demi Moore isn't landing Brad Pitt, after all.

BTW, I don't mean to sound unsympathetic, or that I think I wouldn't like you if I knew you IRL (as I wish I did). You sound far more appealing as a potential wife than do RKkN, who is VOLUNTARILY barren. Such women simply don't understand that, by taking the family-creating potential out of the picture, they remove the primary motivation for men to marry them. Without that commitment (and thus W/O what brings about that commitment), once a man tires of a woman, as is likely within 2 years tops, he hits the road, and appropriately so.

I just think that you likely either have had your standards too selective (not same thing as "too high"), or have not searched adeptly (not looked where there are good men). Any college hard-science or engineering department, gamer's (military simulation or fantasy roleplaying ala Dungeons and Dragons), computer helpdesk department, environmental laboratory, petroleum service company that widely employs degreed employees, or the Appalachian Trail all generally have oodles of good men under age 45 who are lonely and willing to commit to a feminine woman. I can attest to all those personally.
MinnesotaSmith | 01.16.06 - 8:34 am | #

More for Karen...

She said: "Kim, may I suggest a book called The Fascinating Woman by Helen Andelin. I promise you'll find it interesting. It is practical advice about how to make your man (and yourself in the meantime) very happy. Basically, men are happy when we appreciate what they do to provide for us, when we make ouselves vulnerable and dependent ad admire the manly qualities that they have and that they use to serve us. They want us to need them and they want to need us. They want us to be angelic creatures who are neat and clean and capable woman when it comes to running the house and raising the children and yet be still childlike in our dependence on them."

Reasonable enough. I'd suggest even more strongly (I haven't read the Andelin book) this nice one:

"Created to Be His Helpmeet" by Debi Pearl. www.nogreaterjoy.org has a nice excerpt of it at http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/inde...id=76& tx_ttnews[swords]=Debi%20Pearl&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=198& tx_ttnews[backPid]=118&cHash=cc42f45942 . If the direct link doesn't work, go to the home page, put "Debi Pearl" without the quotes in the search box, and scroll down about 8 items to the Nov. 2004 entry that reads "Created to be His Help Meet".
MinnesotaSmith | 01.16.06 - 8:46 am | #

To the Anonymous who liked the reference to Bernard Chapin's "The Quagmire of Older Women":

I think you just read the recent update. Here are the original three articles, in order:

http://mensnewsdaily.com/ archive...hapin122303.htm

http://mensnewsdaily.com/ archive...hapin122803.htm

http://mensnewsdaily.com/ archive...hapin010204.htm

I have occasional e-mail exchanges with the author, a man of whom I think highly. He is planning to write a book with these articles as the starting point.
MinnesotaSmith | 01.16.06 - 8:52 am | #

"Karen, you became an "older woman" somewhere between 27-32. At this point, now, over 80% (conservatively; probably closer to about 92%) of your fertility is behind you, wasted, and your looks peaked (and have been declining ever since) probably 18 years ago. That is, your physical appeal has been dropping for over half your life. Only a woman who was an 8+ (on the 1-10 physical appeal scale men use) at her peak can IMO deal with having to compete (with women who have NOT lost so much ground) halfway easily after having lost 3+ points, and even then has to lower her sights a bit. Demi Moore isn't landing Brad Pitt, after all. "

Ew. You're one of those almost a pedophiles who get off on the "barely legal" girls.

Nasty, considering you're an old man. Ugh, there is nothing, NOTHING more disgusting than an old man staring at you.

And Brad Pitt? Please.
kim | Homepage | 01.16.06 - 8:04 pm | #

"Almost pedophiles?" Wow, more in depth analysis by little kimmie.

Yes, a woman in the prime of her childbearing years isn't something a healthy man should be attracted to, is it?

I personally dislike the "girlish look" (in fact I think most models look not womanly enough), but if I met an attractive 18 year old that seemed to have her head together, you're damn right I'd date her. Why not?

She's had much less time to steep in her bitterness like kim has.
Michael Maier | 01.16.06 - 10:53 pm | #

I also find the whole "cougar" concept quite funny. I've recently met two such predator women in their mid to late 30's that LIKE to be used for sex by what THEY call "little boys".

But I guess that's different, right?

Actually it is. Because the young girl acutally HAS prospects for a serious relationship out of it, unlike the older women.

On a related note: what's the Vegal line on Ashton leaving Demi?
Michael Maier | 01.16.06 - 10:55 pm | #

RKkN, at 44, I'm still fertile, unlike a woman of my age. Since I still wish to have a family, why in Hades should I date women (such as those of my own age) who are likely unable to do the same?

Women waiting until their late thirties to marry and have children makes as much sense (is just as adaptive) as any person waiting until age 50 to start training for the Olympic marathon.
===================================
From the middle "Quagmire of Older Women" link above:

"...it is clear to me that there is nothing superficial about male sexuality and nowhere is this more evident than in our preference for young, attractive mates.

Indeed, a man’s desire for feminine youth and beauty is thorough proof of depth. This preference is intrinsic to our biology and independently is the reason why our species has survived into twenty-first century.

In my own case, had my father, a man of forty in 1968, married a woman his own age rather than my 24 year old mother, the chances are very good that I would not be here to write this piece at all. For me to call into question my father’s selection bias is equivalent to me calling into question my own right to exist. I will not do so.

We know indisputably that youth correlates with fertility and that beauty correlates with health. Rather than attack men, women and the media should be grateful that ancient males coveted who they did.

Robert Wright, in his masterpiece, The Moral Animal: Why We Are the Way We Are, clearly identifies that a man’s concern for a female’s age is both essential and universal:

“Just as women have special reason to focus on a man’s ability to provide resources, men have special reason to focus on the ability to produce babies. That means, among other things, caring greatly about the age of a potential mate, since fertility declines until menopause, when it falls off abruptly. The last thing evolutionary psychologists would expect to find is that a plainly postmenopausal women is sexually attractive to the average . They don’t find it. (According to Bronislaw Malinowski, Trobriand Islanders considered sex with an old woman ‘indecorous, ludicrous, and unaesthetic.’) Even before menopause, age matters, especially in a long-term mate; the younger a woman, the more children she can bear. In every one of Buss’s thirty-seven cultures, males preferred younger mates (and females preferred older mates).” [p.65]"
MinnesotaSmith | 01.17.06 - 7:35 am | #

"But I guess that's different, right?"

No, it's just as creepy and gross.

Btw, most 18 year old girls find 40+ year old men rather pathetic and disgusting. He'd have to be seriously hot, famous, wealthy or all 3. If not, they're laughed at.
kim | 01.17.06 - 10:26 pm | #

"If not, they're laughed at"

Laughed at the way women over age 35 are laughed at by men who want a family, no doubt. (Triply so for women who are tied up caring for another man's children, and still somehow think they deserve a relationship with some unencumbered guy of the same market level those women could get when 10 years younger and childless.)

BTW, I'm not looking for an 18-YO woman to marry. Late 20s would do fine.
MinnesotaSmith | 01.18.06 - 8:04 am | #

Most women have a 10 year rule. 10 years older is the end limit of how much older a man can be and be considered datable. 10 years is pushing it too. 5-8 is preferable.

Older men can still father children...but with their significantly weaker libidos..well, it gets pointless.
kim | 01.18.06 - 1:10 pm | #

"Most women have a 10 year rule...

Older men can still father children...but with their significantly weaker libidos..well, it gets pointless." -- kim

"Most women" end up embittered, unfortunately. "Most women" at age 37 (the supposed 'peak') still have an 'average libido' far less than the alleged 'older man'.

Read Isaiah 4:1 again if you never have. (although that ratio may admittedly be a little high, it's at least food for thought.)
Mark Call | 01.18.06 - 1:35 pm | #

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