I'm not exactly shocked by this revelation. Just look at the reading comprehension level of many who stop by here. Of course, they are righteously indignant when you point it out, but it doesn't change the fact at all.
Spacebunny | 01.12.06 - 4:53 am | #

Maybe degrees should be required to post? Or reading comprehension test be taken before becoming a registered poster? [As an anti-tester, it doesn't mean much to me, but I guess whatever it takes...]

Now, if I can convince my wife that college isn't necessary, we'll be all set (it took her about 8 years to buy into home educating our children
http://dannyhsdad.blogspot.com/ 2...eschooling.html
so I figured by the time my eldest is 18, she'll be convinced (I hope))....
DannyHSDad | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 5:12 am | #

I get folks telling me how Christianity is a brainwashing cult full of rock spiders in the clergy, and also how it completely shapes and controls perception of reality (I don't disagree here). But hardly anyone I know says that about schools and how they do it - and to everyone.

I'm just in a 'care factor: zero' situation when I see how school has shaped and controlled people's perceptions of reality. And these folks are trying to tell me something about my views? It's like Bin Laden lecturing others about being Violent Satanic Nutjobs (which he does).

The smartest folks figure out things on their own, they game society on their terms and then go about whatever they want in their spare time because they can. Others haven't figured it out because they're not as bright as they think they are and need to be lead rather than lead themselves.
Jamie R | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 6:02 am | #

That's what happens with the rise of "info-tainment":
People want crap that supports their emotionalism-based preconceptions, not truth and facts.
Color it the unintended consequence of "pubic screwools" that from the late 1960s to date have taught nothing but agenda-driven propaganda.
Ted | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 6:07 am | #

Spacebunny,

Hear! Hear! To add to this worthless paper nonsense, I am advocating suing corporate america for college degree discrimination in their hiring practices. Unless you can demonstrate that a degree has a direct impact upon the work to be performed, you can't use that as a criteria in hiring. What does the group think of this one? This started out being a joke, but the more I thought about it, hmmm. I am in IT so the degree thing always struck me funny as it seems to have little to do with the work, considering what you need to know to do the work that is done today.
SteveP | 01.12.06 - 6:17 am | #

Education is finally catching up with the declining value of the dollar.

Seems people are getting their monies worth.
A.K.A. | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 6:25 am | #

SteveP: you're better off starting your own (unless your goal is to make money in the suit -- BTW you're not trying to become a lawyer, are you?). PC's are dime a dozen and high speed internet is cheap too. You don't even need to setup your own web page: ebay/paypal does it all for you.

That said, because of my brainwashing (attending schools to "earn" A.S., B.S., B.A. and M.A degrees), I have turned into a good employee (software engineer) but not prepared to be an entrepreneur. I hope to change that with my sons but the ideal would be for me to become an example.... (see http://dannytech.blogspot.com/ )
DannyHSDad | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 6:26 am | #

Vox - please link to the article.

After reading Vox's essays and those of Dr. Mike Adams, I'm not encouraging my sons to go to a university. Seems they would get as much training in sexual perversity and getting wasted as they would in course work.
tiarosa | 01.12.06 - 6:30 am | #

DannyHSDad,

I dont need to, or would want to work for corp america, they would never hire me. I have gotten all my gigs based on my mouth, and work I can show you. I just recently picked up another gig to add to my others simply by talking and showing. I am one of those who can communicate and architect/program in way so even the most limited of educations understands what I am talking about. My idea has always been to be the IT guy for 3 to 5 small businesses. I have found the smaller guys need what I do the most, are the most appreciative of the work as they see a direct impact of it. Each pays a little, but I get a nice living w/out having to play the corp game. It works for me cause I can sell it, not everyone can though. You are right, you do have to take the bull by horns, I train the collegely challenged a lot. The reactions to what I say are the most priceless part, its nice to see the breakthru in thinking once I get done with them.
SteveP | 01.12.06 - 6:50 am | #

You're all missing the mark here. Students should be able to read BEFORE they go to college. The problem pointed out in the article isn't what is learned in college, it's the academic standards set to enter it in the first place.

These statistics reflect a GIGO error - that's all.
Daniel | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 6:54 am | #

tiarosa, I'm willing to bet he found it in a site you need to subscribe to.
Daniel | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 7:02 am | #

considering that the university is a twelfth century concept that made sense before the invention of the printing press and moveable type, you can see that the lag time in human thinking is quite a long spell. today's colleges are probably the MOST inefficient means of transmitting information you could come up with if you thought about it for a year.

today's colleges are little more than fascist day camps that serve only to extend childhood and remove the facility of logic from the students' heads. to say they are obsolete is overly generous, as obsolescence does not necessarily imply harm, whereas modern colleges, excluding the hard sciences and engineering, waste a good deal of hard earned money and give you a 4 year handicap getting started in the real world.

close all state colleges, put a stop to all federal grants and loans to both students and universities and america would be the better for it.
peter | 01.12.06 - 7:12 am | #

Peter, just because a concept is old, doesn't necessarily mean it is obsolete.

That having been said, your last statement is true - not because it would hurt higher education, but because it would HELP it.
Daniel | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 7:45 am | #

Blumenfeld is as sharp as ever. I met him 20 years ago when we (the local conservative student club) invited him to speak at Cal State Hayward. He said, among other things, that a look-say taught elementary school classroom typically breaks down into thirds: 1/3 of the kids figure out on their own that the alphabet is a phonic code, and learn how to read competently; 1/3 blindly accept the look-say premise that the alphabet is an ideographic system, and memorize just enough letter combinations to read poorly; 1/3 never learn to read at all. He pretty accurately described what I saw as an elementary school pupil.
Houston | 01.12.06 - 7:45 am | #

Daniel,

You are right, I actually had this come up in an interview when I was asked why I did not have a degree. Part of my explanation was that as far as what I had seen, I did not understand why there were remedial classes in reading and math in college, my point of view was that if you could not read, you did not belong in college. Of course the person I was interviewing with was one of these people so it was pretty funny. Peter, you are also dead on, if you took the govt financing out of education the tuition would drop like a stone, I am amazed how many people always want more money for school, instead of asking why it costs so much to begin with. Who wants to drop 20k + for an education that may or may not get you a job that pays much more than that?
SteveP | 01.12.06 - 7:49 am | #

Now we know why people don't read manuals.
Athor Pel | 01.12.06 - 7:53 am | #

Vox, While I find the article amusing, it only exasterbates the insanity of the discrimination occuring in the job market. I have seen posters on this site refer to farming as a job for those who cannot handle the necessary course work for college, yet in the adds I have read in the last few days, the first requirement for the farm related job was a college degree.

I personally was refused a farm loan by a bank, and one of the reasons given was lack of a college education. The banker who said this had a college degree, had farmed for less than 10 years, and declared bankrupcy to the tune of a million bucks, then became a banker, so he could tell other people how to farm.
The system is corrupt, filled with self important know it alls who have that piece of paper and what to require the same from everybody else.
farmer Tom | 01.12.06 - 7:54 am | #

These statistics reflect a GIGO error - that's all.

Most agreed... Could not state that any better myself...

considering that the university is a twelfth century concept that made sense before the invention of the printing press...

Yep, look what Gutenberg combined with Luther did to the Roman church, and why subsquently the "Society of Jesus" had to come to fruition. The church's only response and defense against the initial movable type (although "Medici Learning" was germinating well before the Reformation)

today's colleges are little more than fascist day camps that serve only to extend childhood and remove the facility of logic from the students' heads.

Well said, and most agreed... The sooner one realizes that this is not at all by accident, or misunderstanding, or misguidance, but by sheer design, thoughtful and deliberate (albeit stealthly) guidance; the better for all concerned...

close all state colleges...

Would be an interesting observation to behold (especially my nephews being or about to be in two of them), however not probable or even doable at this stage in the game. Perhaps after the collaspe?

...put a stop to all federal grants and loans to both students and universities...

This would be even more interesting to observe. Most "private" institutions are beholden to at least some fed aid. Except for the medical (including biological) sciences and some of the physical sciences, the internet would be most persons avenue of REAL learning. However, with the advent of I-II, one better start acquiring their own private library...
Dread | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 7:57 am | #

The system is corrupt, filled with self important know it alls who have that piece of paper and what to require the same from everybody else.

So pay $200 and get a correspondence school diploma or community college degree, whatever. The intelligent person recognizes the game and uses the rules to his advantage.
VD | 01.12.06 - 8:06 am | #

I see it when interviewing people all the time. It never fails to amuse me how college grads can't figure out the margin between to numbers, or how they don't know the difference between margin and markup. Funny.
Rich | 01.12.06 - 8:08 am | #

or two numbers oops
Rich | 01.12.06 - 8:09 am | #

The banker who said this had a college degree, had farmed for less than 10 years, and declared bankrupcy to the tune of a million bucks, then became a banker, so he could tell other people how to farm.
The system is corrupt, filled with self important know it alls who have that piece of paper and what to require the same from everybody else.

FT

This is what we would coin in one succinct word as -- denial. This is symptomatic of virtually all problems in society. The lunatics are in charge of the asylum...
Dread | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 8:09 am | #

Who was it who said that "in 30 years we've gone from teaching classical Greek in high school to teaching remedial English in college"?
nesselrode5 | 01.12.06 - 8:11 am | #

FT,

The bias against farming is real, as is the mindset that your children are wasting their lives if they don't go to college. The false expectations are amazing.

My 2nd son has wanted to farm for as long as I can remember. (He's 20.) He'll soon be leaving for a 1 year apprenticeship w/ Joel Salatin who is well known in the pastured poultry world.

Neither of my post high school (homeschooled) have an interest in college. Initially, it was difficult for my wife to accept but having seen the nonesense I deal with daily in Dilbertland, she has come around, I think. The 1st is the opposite of the 2nd in that he's still trying to figure out what he wants to do. He has been busy doing a number of different things and hasn't been idle, however.

It remains to be seen whether any of the remaing 8 will choose to go to college.
SWW | 01.12.06 - 8:16 am | #

nonesense = nonsense.
SWW | 01.12.06 - 8:24 am | #

I can think of perhaps four people I know who are actually using their degrees - a doctor, a vet and two lawyers. Now, I think education, for educations sake alone is a wonderful thing, but most degrees are useless.

nesselrode5 - Waaaay back in the day Latin wasn't required at universities because it was assumed if you were applying you already knew it. Now most people don't even recogize that "etal" is a latin abbreviation.
Spacebunny | 01.12.06 - 8:35 am | #

Right on SB-- my parents both come from blue collar families (no college), but 50 years after parochial HS they can still read Latin texts better than most of my colleagues read English. My kids are learning about Kwaansa, though, so, bonus!
nesselrode5 | 01.12.06 - 8:47 am | #

My two homeschooled seniors (aged 18 & 17) are attending community college classes now.

Daughter tells tales of kids not showing up for class, or when they do show up they talk loudly to anyone around them. Her conclusion is that a) they don't want to learn and b) they don't care since it is Daddy's money.

I've got to find some apprenticeship opportunities for them.
Inquiring Minds | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 8:55 am | #

I had 2 years of latin - 7th and 8th grades. French from 7th through 12th.

Shows my age.
A.K.A. | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 8:57 am | #

A supporting anecdote:
A high school chum quit college after his 2nd year and started a lawn care biz. At the 10 year reunion he was set for life, at the 15 he was looking to retire.

VD & Jamie -- Spot on about it being a big game.
Mutly | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 8:58 am | #

Here's the original article:

http://www.wnd.com/news/ article....RTICLE_ID=48309
SWW | 01.12.06 - 9:18 am | #

Hmmm, yes, well, I guess I won't worry so much about having three, going on four children, who don't have a "college fund" yet, because dear old dad is paying his debt off right now.
Astrosmith | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 9:23 am | #

My niece obtained her degree in Modern Dance from the esteemed University of Kansas. 6 years later she still laments that dance instructor jobs just don't pay enough. Worthless career choice, worthless degree, worthless employment prospects.

I asked her why she doesn't just open a studio and become self employed. She responded, "It would take up too much of my time." Time?! Remember, she's unemployed and can't find work.

She's very much of the, "Someone take care of me! However, I'm an independent and strong woman because I say so!"
Daddynichol | 01.12.06 - 9:35 am | #

I use my degree in my job. I make maps and maintain a geographic database for a living. My degrees are in geography (BA, MA) and history (BA). There was a lot of stuff I did before getting those degrees but it doesn't apply to this discussion.

Did I need to take all those classes to do this job? Nope. Four or five classes would of been enough. Specially considering that probably more than half of the knowledge I use on the job was acquired while doing the job.

Why did I stay in school so long? To avoid the assumption of adult responsibility for as long as possible. Even with a part time job while going to college I had lots of free time. I like free time. It's where I got my computer gaming habit.
Athor Pel | 01.12.06 - 9:35 am | #

Athor,

COOL! My wife has a BA in Geography and Environmental Studies.

She's homeschooling our children now, but I consider that using her degree too.
Daniel | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 9:38 am | #

I just found out that I can't get promoted at work for at least another two years due to a lack of degree. They require 14 years with degree and 28 years without. I am a software developer. I am the lead on a number of projects. I have to remove many educated engineers because they haven't unlearned their college enough to be productive yet.

I did go to college for a while. I was taught how to designe computers using Vacuum Tubes. Does anyone out there need this skill? I even have a box of 6UA6's that I can use. Software engineering ios taught so poorly that I am surprised that anyone can learn it through school. They NEVER teach teamwork or proper auditing of others work. It is like writing, if you can't take constructive criticism you should find another line of work.
Kriston | 01.12.06 - 9:39 am | #

Once you get your own farm would you accept apprentices farmer tom?

Do you think other independent farmers would take someone on as long as they only worked for room and board?
Athor Pel | 01.12.06 - 9:40 am | #

It's the pride Kriston. It's all about the pride. Pride blinds us to our own sin and failure.
Athor Pel | 01.12.06 - 9:42 am | #

"Now we know why people don't read manuals."
-Athor Pel

Most manuals are written by those college educated software writers. I don't read manuals that are written by the illiterate either.
Kriston | 01.12.06 - 9:42 am | #

"It's the pride Kriston. It's all about the pride. Pride blinds us to our own sin and failure."
-Athor Pel

I agree completely. Periodicaly we get together and discuss all of the code that we have written. It is sometimes hard to get the newcomers to nat take things personally, but they usually catch on. I think we all are becoming better programmers as we discover our own blind spots. At least I know I am.
Kriston | 01.12.06 - 9:46 am | #

I read manuals. When I used to be a computer consultant, many times I would find out the 'problem' the customer was having, look it up in the troubleshooting section of their manual, and fix it. Sometimes they'd complain about paying me afterwards, claiming that all I did was read the manual. My usual reply was, 'No, I read the manual and then fixed the problem. If you didn't want to pay me to do it, why didn't you do it yourself?'.
p-dawg | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 10:05 am | #

SteveP, if you are doing so well working on your own with small companies that don't require you to have a degree, why so bitter against the large corps that do?

Unless you have some irrational motive for revenge, enjoy your independence and just watch the large corps fall of their own weight.

The silly lawsuit thing puts you in the same camp with the feminazis and other societal parasites.
Somboed | 01.12.06 - 10:07 am | #

I read an article by Gary North who claims that employers know that a college degree is worthless. They demand them to weed out certain groups of people. Remember when many companies required tests? But all the discrimination lawsuits in the 60s put an end to them. Now businesses get around it by demanding college diplomas.
JohnR | 01.12.06 - 10:14 am | #

In this world, the only pieces of paper which truly count are the notes in your wallet. Any PhD would kiss ass for a decent grant. No self-made man would even consider doing the same in order to be considered "intelligent".
Pablo | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 10:20 am | #

I mentioned earlier, that I believe that this "dumbing down" of western society is not by accident or mere mis-placed wisdom. One needs to understand, that in order for one to be "elite," others must be brought under control, therefore "dumbing down." To be "elite," one must have possession of special knowledge or gnosis. Not everyone can become an "elite." Not everyone can come to the state of apotheosis. That is, becoming a god.

When one comes to understand the "post-human" mindset, the statement

"...colleges are little more than fascist day camps that serve only to extend childhood and remove the facility of logic from the students' heads."

Last June at Yale University, the World Transhumanist Association held its first national conference. The Transhumanists have chapters in more than 20 countries and advocate the breeding of "genetically enriched" forms of "post-human" beings. Other advocates of the new techno-eugenics, such as Princeton University professor Lee Silver, predict that by the end of this century, "All aspects of the economy, the media, the entertainment industry, and the knowledge industry [will be] controlled by members of the GenRich class. . .Naturals [will] work as low-paid service providers or as laborers. . ."

Now most people don't even recogize that "etal" is a latin abbreviation.
--Spacebunny

And all this time I thought it meant someone had eaten too much...
Dadoovark | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 10:21 am | #

Folks, Hate to disagree but there is a real utility for technical degrees that real life experience cannot replace, at least in the mathematically intensive fields. I have a MSEE in control system theory and my brother has a PHD in plasma physics. Both of us not only the information we learned in school, as well as the problem solving skills approaches taught in college. There are many colleges that still teach real information and problem solving skills, at least in technical areas that have real answers and absolute standards.

As I work in design in a large company I have seen many who are gifted mentally but have not gone through the rigor of a technical education and complete it. It takes discipline and a certain determination to finish. They can be good, but not having the mathematical tools and understanding (learned painfully in my case) they simply cannot do things that “completed degree” folks can.

I note this does not seem to be the case in programming; I am not sure about the utility of a degree there. I have known some skilled programmers who actually had degrees in foreign languages, not a school programming degree. As my knowledge of this area is somewhat limited, that is only an first order observation, there may be subtleties I have missed.

I would certainly agree that degrees do seem to reduce the entrepreneurial instincts of a person. Most of my friends of that ilk do not have degrees and it is the early work experiences which seem to be of real value to their mind set. Certainly it is really quite remarkable that the builders of many of the significant companies are folks that could not put up with the idiocies of college.

The problem I see is that schools have set up bogus degree programs for folks that are not looking for real mentally rigorous programs, most especially in the liberal arts, where there are no set “right and wrong” answers. In this case the universities are simply responding to market pressures. Folks want a piece of paper, without working for it. Schools are simply providing what folks want, at a very high price.
Frederick | 01.12.06 - 10:21 am | #

Athor Pel claims "I use my degree in my job." That's funny. I have Computer Science degrees (B.S. and M.A.) and even a math degree (B.A.) and I have been programming full time since 1987. However, I can't recall needing anything I learned in school in my work except maybe when I interview for a new job at a new company.

To put it in perspective: I have yet to encounter a situation where I thought: "wow, if I didn't listen to that lecture I won't even know where to begin with this problem."
DannyHSDad | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 10:23 am | #

Frederick, I'm not saying that all degrees are worthless, only about 90 percent of them. Including mine.
VD | 01.12.06 - 10:27 am | #

JohnR proposes "Now businesses get around it by demanding college diplomas."

I find it funny reading about how Bill Gates (who's a college drop out) demanding that he needs more college grads. [He even has scholarships!] Yessiree, he desperately needs us college grads who will become obedient slaves I mean employees....

He doesn't need people like Steve Jobs -- another college drop out -- to compete with him.... I guess Gates got lucky with Michael Dell (yet another college drop out) who seems more obedient (slavishly following the Wintel standards) than independent...
DannyHSDad | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 10:32 am | #

"The intelligent person recognizes the game and uses the rules to his advantage."

Maybe... but the capable person recognizes the game, disregards it, and makes his own way... perhaps remaking the game as he goes.
Nate | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 10:41 am | #

Many of the new educational doctrines harm the students more than help. Most of my family members are Teachers or have retired from Teaching. Most of the people who have retired did so because of the "new" approaches to education like social promotion and failing someone means the teacher failed. Not giving the earned grade is one of the worst ideas ever. There are good teachers. Sadly these are the ones trivialized by the unions and the system.

I can remember the people from my Western Civ I class. Most knew nothing about the subject and most could not care less. I sat next to a guy who was obviously not cut out for College but his parents pushed him there. Of course he was failing. His highest test score was a 44. He got that score he said because he cheated off me but I finished before he could get all the answers. He was an avid fisherman and this is all he talked/thought about. I told him that he should be a fisherman and charter boats. His parents did not want him to do this so they were "forcing" him into college. He still passed the class with a C.
1000xZero | 01.12.06 - 10:45 am | #

Since graduating with a Bach of Music degree (piano), I have held the following jobs:

Finance auditor (contractor onsite at a MAJOR home-repair dealer not named Lowe's) finding holes in the AP system
Audit Supervisor at same -- pioneered new audit concepts and found new system holes to plug
IT generalist at same -- included data mining, programming, backup, and server/desktop maintenance
Client Data Analyst -- retrieved data in many forms from multiple clients, backup, conversion to SQL/Oracle db's

Number of IT or computer-related classes taken in conjunction with a Music degree: ZERO

Number of music-related jobs that the degree mattered: ZERO

All my music work is done on merit alone, and all the non-music work has been done on merit alone. The hard part for the latter was getting in the front door without the paper that said "I Knows How Kumpewterz Werk".

Some jobs only care that one has a degree, others are more focused on what type. In the modern world, unless one is a true go-getter, having a degree of any sort is still better than none at all for 95% of the population. You probably won't be doing what the degree was for, but it'll often be the difference in getting an interview or not.

Do not expect corporations to change anytime soon. The feminization in the past has brought us to this point, and the greater numbers of fems in the pipeline guarantee a strengthening of this trend.

As in the past, the best way to succeed is to build your own business and let the drones be miserable in the monster corporate hives.
skymuse | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 10:53 am | #

Real life anecdote from my college days: One of the required courses for my BA (a useless PoliSci degree) was a class called "Lifelong Understanding." It was taught by a couple of soft-spoken liberal women who blathered about feelings, perceptions, and vaguely referenced sociological studies. Utterly without substance. I cut class for weeks. When I finally showed up, one of the profs told me that I'd missed the final exam. No problem. She allowed me to take it in the department office. It consisted of 3 or 4 touchy-feely essay questions about personal growth and sensitivity toward others. I wrote down several dozen liberal bromides in no particular order. I passed with a B.
Houston | 01.12.06 - 11:03 am | #

More people go to college then ever. All this means is that there are a bunch of people going to college that SHOULDN'T be, and there is no end to the number of colleges that will take you no matter what, and graduate you no matter what, because they want your money.
Renee | 01.12.06 - 11:13 am | #

The price increases continue to amaze me. My school is now $35-40K per year. It simply can not be justified.

Better to invest the cash. 40 year future value on 4 payments of 40,000 at only 5% yields over $1 mil.

I'd rather the kid have a nest egg of $1 mil at age 58.
Zek | 01.12.06 - 11:17 am | #

VD writes:

"This destructive transformation of education into maleducation is not mere happenstance."

Most important part of the post right there, for my mind - So many well-meaning people I know lament the fact that we are aborting/contracepting ourselves to death while raising what few children we do have to be nothing short of morons (who are barely capable of reading their TV Guides let alone critically questioning that around them) without inquiring as to the WHY that might be - Things like this (that so go against nature and simple common sense) simply do not happen without a reason...
Alfonz | 01.12.06 - 11:20 am | #

I graduated with a PolSci degree also. Useless. My dad dropped out of school in the tenth grade to help on the family farm. From birth he told me the gov't was the same as all the other communist and socialist gov't's in the world. I spent four years and his money proving him right.
Tom Bell | 01.12.06 - 11:20 am | #

Somboed,

I am not bitter in the least and have no intention of actually suing for this. This came about with a discussion with my wife who is a lettered actuary. I have no college, and am completely self taught. She was telling me of her interview experiences, what she could and could not do and ask since she was doing the hiring. I thought this would be really funny to sue for considering all the other crazy things people do sue for now. I am not biased against degrees whatsoever, but they have their place, and far too many jobs are simply asking for this when it really has no bearing on the job itself. The science types of things of course should require some advanced training, but I doubt wasting everyones time with elizabethan english lit has much to do with what a physics major will be doing when he/she hits the working world.
SteveP | 01.12.06 - 11:20 am | #

The feminization in the past has brought us to this point, and the greater numbers of fems in the pipeline guarantee a strengthening of this trend.

Interesting how we can tie feminism into this discussion. It was asked before in numerous previous threads what is the real genesis (no pun intended) of feminism? Many of us have been entertained by The Gonzman in attempting to get Kimber to admit from where her feminist ideology is derived and birthed. Kimber asserts that her flavor of feminism may be different from your flavor, at the same time ignoring current standing (as well as past/deceased) archtypes stranglehold on the mindset of all adherents.

Perhaps this statement from antiquity may answer to all concerned here:

"But now the principle of feminine wisdom reappears in the form of the serpent, called the "Instructor," who tells the mortal pair to defy the prohibition of the archons and eat of the tree of knowledge." [emphasis added]
- from the "Hypostasis of the Archon" - an Egyptian Gnostic document

[Lucifer] I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. (Isaiah 14:13-14)

Farmer Tom,

Taking on a huge amount of debt to produce commodities has a very low probability of success. As to your banker, he probably wouldn't have the ability to approve a note if he wanted to. Based upon your posts over time, it's obvious that you have a love for farming and they're not making many farmers any more. I know it's a stretch but what if you just started knocking on doors of older farmers with no sons staying on the farm, cut a deal to take over operations, and then use the capital so generated to start buying your own land piece-meal?

It's unconventional but I think it could work. You think me crazy? I wanted to invest in a cattle operation but didn't want anything to do with cattle. I found a fellow wanting to retire early from an airline job to his ranch but he didn't have the capital to put the cows on the ground. I did. He's happy; I'm happy and his son will be taking over the operation over the next several years. It is possible.

All the best.
RC | 01.12.06 - 11:24 am | #

"It's unconventional but I think it could work."

Actually it's not, most of Ft's Generation, first gen farmers started share cropping. My brother is an example. Though my grandmother had 80 acres, he leased it from her until he made enough money to buy his own place.
equus pallidus | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 11:36 am | #

SkyMuse wrote: "In the modern world, unless one is a true go-getter, having a degree of any sort is still better than none at all for 95% of the population. You probably won't be doing what the degree was for, but it'll often be the difference in getting an interview or not."

I grudgingly came to this conclusion. We've homeschooled, though not currently, so we're open to education alternatives and I am critical of "the system." But, as I've observed my kids, I'm not sure they're the "go-getter" type who can be instant entrepreneurs. I think very few people are. Thus, for those who can't write their own rules, they need a piece of paper to get employed.

But, yes, college degrees are overrated. It was only after about 14 years in my white-collar profession that I finally surpassed the hourly rate of my buddy who was a high school drop-out and a house painter! My brother-in-law's brother sells cars and makes $100k per year. I went to college and make half that. Clearly, college degrees are overrated.

I agree with the practical uselessness of 90% of college degrees (I'm a Religion major doing photo retouching for an ad agency). But I realize one has to "play the game." Vox's suggestion about just getting a quick and dirty degree for the sake of the "piece of paper," and thus gaming the game, is intriguing.
Grendelizer | 01.12.06 - 11:49 am | #

Just a quick reminder: Homeschoolers are CHILD ABUSERS!
Daniel | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 12:18 pm | #

...because they want your money.

Well, yes and no...

They well know that most don't have "money." (or soon will not in possible light of the March "Iran Oil Bourse.") They really want "OPM." (that is of the Chinese and Japanese) Financing secondary education especially today is worse economically than financing a mid-price automobile, a value-price boat, or even an average single family home. You pay way too much for the supposed valued asset, and in little time get literally nothing in return for the investment...

"All there is, is dust in the wind."

The only reason I went to college and law school is you have to in order to become an attorney and the chicks at my college outnumbered the guys 3.5-1 and they were extraordinarilly hot. That's about it for the reasons to go to graduate school.

The misnomer that many have is that education equals intelligence. This is crap. Level of education is more a reflection of opportunity and financial resourcefullness than inate intelligence. One need go no further than a first year law class to become painfully aware of this.
Ihatedashrub | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 12:32 pm | #

As far as degree discrimination is concerned, my problem is the opposite of that mentioned by most of those posting. I have a BA in history and a Master's in library science, but I've been out of steady work for years, because most of those doing the hiring seem to be insecure about hiring someone with a higher level of education than they have (perhaps I would be more accurate in using the term "higher degree" as contrasted with "higher education"). The aspect of library school that gave me the most real education was the experience of observing how the beautiful women of Western Ontario would turn me down for dates in favour of Les Nessman lookalikes--I definitely learned something about the miserable tastes and judgment of women. The most useful course I've ever taken was my grade 10 typing course, back in the days when we learned on manual typewriters.

The comment of a previous poster about the woman with the degree in dance reminds me of a girl I knew in high school who was kicked out of the school dance club. She's been running her own dance studio for years, while all the other girls in the dance club ended up moving on to other things.

As far as Vox's comment about being able to teach a 4-year-old to read in a few months, that's spot on. I was taught to read, using phonics, by a stay-at-home mom who never finished high school. I can still remember the thrill of the moment when, at the age of 4 years and 5 months, I realized that I could actually read entire words.
Professor Moriarty | 01.12.06 - 12:35 pm | #

How are you supposed to learn math, reading comprehension, writing, and critical thinking when you're constantly being indoctrinated in useless 'diversity' classes they require undergrads to take?
voodoojock | 01.12.06 - 12:38 pm | #

When college was all male, it meant something. With women flooding the market, bringing down the real wages, it meas about 40% of what it used to. If a man is smart enough he will stay in the all male degrees, engineering etc. Until a flood of women ruin that as well. I don't think they can ruin the highest level of Doctors and Lawyers, but they are trying their hardest to bring those wages down.

I know one female lawyer, she charges $75/hr after 20 years in the feild. That's what I make as a contractor, in fact working on a roof brings 125/hr. She told me she is still paying off loans from college.
Verlch | 01.12.06 - 12:54 pm | #

Moriarty wrote: "The most useful course I've ever taken was . . . typing."

Concur. And getting a B+ in typing, missing an A by three words per minute, is what relegated me to salutatorian and my buddy to valedictorian!

Damn typing courses. . . .
Grendelizer | 01.12.06 - 1:05 pm | #

"As far as Vox's comment about being able to teach a 4-year-old to read in a few months, that's spot on. I was taught to read, using phonics, by a stay-at-home mom who never finished high school. I can still remember the thrill of the moment when, at the age of 4 years and 5 months, I realized that I could actually read entire words." - Professor Moriarty

I remember that thrill too, in the early days of first grade. Our teacher defied the look-say conventions and taught us phonics, using a story about a thief who tries to bribe his way past a watchdog with a hunk of meat. She drilled us relentlessly in the basic spelling rules. If it wasn't for her bucking the system (her name, appropriately, was Mrs. Buck), I doubt I'd have learned to read proficiently.

In second grade we had a younger teacher who probably gave us 100 percent look-say instruction. I'm guessing this is what happened, but something changed that confused the hell out of most kids, and only a fraction of us continued to improve our reading skills. We were the few who grasped and held to the phonics principle even when they switched methodologies on us.

Here's where the grim humor kicked in. By the middle of second grade the faculty noticed us phonics-savvy kids pulling way ahead of the pack. At first they found busy work for us to do, shoving us to the back of the class with a pile of old look-say "Dick and Jane" basal readers (the irony!) while the majority stammered and staggered through the daily lessons. Then they decided we were "gifted" and created supposedly advanced "special classes" for us to attend several hours each week. Our parents had their egos stroked, we had our little egos stroked, and the look-say crippled kids and their parents were made to look and feel inferior. Know what we "gifted" kids did in special class? We went on field trips, sang songs, and made hand puppets out of paper lunch bags. It was all a fraud to conceal the school's failure to teach most children how to read. I didn't realize this until I met Sam Blumenfeld 13 years later and heard him describe this exact scam.
Houston | 01.12.06 - 1:21 pm | #

Vox, The intelligent person recognizes the game and uses the rules to his advantage.

That is true, I agree, and please this is not an excuse, but the farming game is rigged. The damn government has poured so much money into the ag business that everybody is corrupt. The land owners are consumed with greed, the guys who are farming live and die by the government handout and the bankers will not consider loaning money to someone who rejects the whole system. Land prices are inflated to twice what the land will produce and the vast majority of the land buyers are outside investors who demand an unreasonably high rate of return on their investment.

I have not given up, it just makes the battle much harder.

SWW, I hope your son can make it work. I know the desire to farm for myself consumes me, morning noon and all night long.

RC, Your idea is almost exactly what I am currently working on. The farmer i am trying to work with is going to retire in two years. We will have to have a plan to change hand in the operation established in the next six months.

Author Pel, Yes I love the idea of an apprentice, and it would pay better than rooma and board.
farmer Tom | 01.12.06 - 1:32 pm | #

" Vox's suggestion about just getting a quick and dirty degree for the sake of the "piece of paper," and thus gaming the game, is intriguing.
Grendelizer"

It's not just intriguing, it's good advice.
LC | 01.12.06 - 1:58 pm | #

First:

College/university = education not training; education in broad subject matter/critical thinking/freedom of thought/objectivity = not today cause too many students can't make it

Colleges/universities of today are looking for money. In fact, I contend that the current system is employed as an additional taxation scheme created and operated in a manner to keep the middle class from rising while attempting to pump lower socio-economic individuals into an ever-growing lower middle class of uneducated, degree holders.

Another issue is that, in my experience, the majority of college students today have no interest in an education. Their attitude is "get me trained in what I want"; I don't need no stinkin' science course or what have you.

As for the institutions, in the mid 1970s, the feds coerced post secondary institutions onto the bandwagon by claiming everyone had a "right" to an education and that in order to continue receiving gubbermint monies these institutions of higher learning would let in everyone. Today it has become such that I have had students with 4th grade reading levels attempting to take my freshman chemistry courses. And they fail. They can't do math, can't read, and surely can't/won't write.

Today it's about retention or about minority rights or ... We don't give a damn about the product because we are not held accountable. Hell, how can an uneducated college gradiate hold anyone accountable, he/she can't even spell the word!

Yes, most degrees and 50 cents will get you a cheap cup of coffee but there are and always be those who learn and become educated in spite of the system.

What's the cause? the system - because that's what it does. the people - because they are too lazy to care, too lazy to and do nothing to change things. the government - because it needs good little citizens that it can control so that those in control can maintain their control. the professors - eunuchs without the "fortitudes" to be ethical and make sure the courses they teach provide growth to the student. everything and everyone - read history; the pattern repeats itself and we will not learn.

As to public schools, the "advanced" programs of today are at best the standard programs of the 50s and 60s, BUT the educators (products of the higher ed system discussed above) are not smart enough to recognize it. The "No Child Left Behind Act" is f_cked up and has no semblance of something developed by anyone knowledgeable in the capabilities of children.

What to do? Instill a desire to learn in your child. Teach them skills that you have and educate them also. Get involved in the education process in your state. Get the feds out. There is no constitutional provision for the fed to be involved in education. Run for office. But first take care of your own.

And remember when the shit hits the fan, it will be those who can think for themselves who will survive but it will also be those
Bill | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 2:14 pm | #

I got a story and a few thoughts.

In the early 90's I did the college thing for a degree in electrical engineering. My problem was that, at age 20, I overloaded. I wanted to drink beer, chase women, attend school, and hold 2 jobs (debt free school). I switched from EE to computer science. Switching from EE to CS made school a cakewalk. This was 13-16 years ago.

A few years back my coworker’s job required him to get a degree. He offered to hire me to go back to school with him and take the same classes he did.

I agreed, but decided to try something different. I took 3 "Work at your own pace Web" based IT classes from New Mexico State. Now, no self respecting government sponsored school would do mail order degrees, but I guess email degrees are different.

I completely finished and turned in the entire workload for all 3 classes on day 2 of the semester.

College is a joke. There isn't a subject that can not be learned far faster outside of school for the self motivated/educated individual. Not one. Not even chemistry, business, engineering, law, or the medical field. Getting a job in certain fields without a degree is another question.

If one truly believes public schooling retards learning, why would university be any different?

Where I work about 25% of the employees are college grads another 25% are "going back to school". My son, who is now a 9 year old home schooled kid, can read and write better than 75% of my coworkers.

TheWesman
TheWesman | 01.12.06 - 2:28 pm | #

Spacebunny is HOT! (I've never seen Spacebunny).
A Silver Mt. Zion | 01.12.06 - 2:29 pm | #

This is the kind of reasoning produced by colleges and universities:

Chet says: "I don’t understand what part of the 4th Amendment Chris is having a problem with. Security of the person.

Just as you have the right to expel people from your home that you don’t want there (security of property), even if they might suffer as a result; you have a right to expel a fetus from your body that you don’t want there, even if the fetus is harmed as a result.

Security of the person. The government cannot dictate to any person who they must allow to live inside their own body, and that constitutional protection can’t be infringed simply to protect humans that have no legal personhood anyway."

I briefly responded to this on my blog, but I'd thought I'd share it with you all and let you have at it.
Chris | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 2:58 pm | #

"Where I work about 25% of the employees are college grads another 25% are "going back to school". My son, who is now a 9 year old home schooled kid, can read and write better than 75% of my coworkers." - The Wesman

I've seen this everywhere I've worked, and it's an efficiency killer. Supervisors unable to write memos even in rough draft, illegible work orders and bills of lading, shipments sent to the wrong addresses, customers ticked off at weird misspellings of their names, sales prospects blown because the salesman's semi-literate proposal letter made the whole company look incompetent, etc.
Houston | 01.12.06 - 3:25 pm | #

I think to get promoted in government you have to prove you're illiterate.

Our higher ups are fucking idiots. And they're responsible for probably (at the least) a quarter BILLION a year in disbursements.
Michael Maier | 01.12.06 - 3:39 pm | #

How are you supposed to learn math, reading comprehension, writing, and critical thinking when you're constantly being indoctrinated in useless 'diversity' classes they require undergrads to take?
voodoojock | 01.12.06 - 12:38 pm | #


But the chicks in those multi-cultural courses and women's studies are hot! And they're not all screaching harpies...some are quite feminine, reserved, and above all, horny.
Ihatedashrub | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 3:48 pm | #

Bill,
You said, "What to do? Instill a desire to learn in your child."

You don't have to do that because the desire to learn is already there. They learned to speak english didn't they? When very young they're constantly asking you questions aren't they? They want to do what you do don't they? They want to help mommy and daddy most of the time don't they?

Trust this, children want to learn. It takes attending public schools and being exposed to the indoctrination therein that kills their desire to learn.
Athor Pel | 01.12.06 - 4:11 pm | #

Wow, you guys are so harsh on colleges. ...not without reason, I guess, if the reading comprehension statistics are true.

Still, I have to disagree with the recommendations to not go to school or to go to a local community college and get an associates degree. I guess this is probably the path to follow if you're itching to get your piece of paper and start makin' some money.

I'm another student pursuing a (worthless) political science/public administration degree. I'm well aware that it's probably not going to do me much good in the professional world beyond having a diploma, but I don't care...as far as I'm concerned, life couldn't be much better at the moment. I live with 3 of my best friends in the world in a community of people all within 2 years of my own age, I spend 3-4 hours of the day in discussions about fascinating subjects, I work a part time job and then I spend the rest of my free time volunteering for our campaigning governor in exchange for a few credits.

Who would trade that for a 40+ hour week in an office?

Yes, I'm well aware that state universities are full of psychotic liberal maniacs who try their damnedest to push their own agenda. but what better way to strengthen my own arguments than to understand theirs?

I don't know...just my $.02.
College is fun and it creates a great environment to learn....if you have the motivation.
diggs | 01.12.06 - 4:11 pm | #

diggs: How will you feel when you HAVE to leave school and find out the working world is nothing like college?
JohnR | 01.12.06 - 4:39 pm | #

I wish I could get my money back on my edumacation. My student loans are currently accruing interest faster than I am able to pay them off. I can forget about supporting a family and helping out the declining birth rate.
Randall | 01.12.06 - 4:52 pm | #

So diggs, $40K or so to hang around psychotic liberal maniacs pushing an agenda because it helps you argue?
Have I got a deal for you...

http://feministe.us/blog/

and I'll take a check.
Steveo | 01.12.06 - 4:54 pm | #

Diggs, one question: Who's paying the bill for your college "experience"?
Grendelizer | 01.12.06 - 5:09 pm | #

I don't know...just my $.02.
College is fun and it creates a great environment to learn....if you have the motivation.
diggs | 01.12.06 - 4:11 pm | #



And who can argue with an environment that promotes massive consumption of alcohol and deviant sexual behavior.

Lord knows I did my best to embrace the three pillars of academia...booze, bitches, and bongs.
Ihatedashrub | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 5:23 pm | #

I spent my college years being overly religious, always praying or reading my Bible to the detriment of real, honest human relationships.

I was the guy knocking on your dorm room door wanting to "witness" to you.

The closest I came to a bong was talking to a druggie name Larry, who claimed that, when stoned, he'd get demonic visitations while listening to Led Zeppelin. (Hence, his desperate interest in talking to me about religion.) He subsequently proved to me that backward masking is real by playing Stairway to Heaven backwards: "Satan, my sweet Satan."
Grendelizer | 01.12.06 - 5:33 pm | #

The closest I came to a bong was talking to a druggie name Larry, who claimed that, when stoned, he'd get demonic visitations while listening to Led Zeppelin. (Hence, his desperate interest in talking to me about religion.) He subsequently proved to me that backward masking is real by playing Stairway to Heaven backwards: "Satan, my sweet Satan."
Grendelizer | 01.12.06 - 5:33 pm | #


Are you sure you didn't partake of the wacky weed? Cuz if you're back masking Stairway to Heaven in a dorm room you gotta be smokin something.
Ihatedashrub | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 5:48 pm | #

Hey, blame it on Larry! I've never even been drunk, not once! Never saw the point. . . .

Anyway, I didn't believe backmasking was real until I heard it with my own ears. Also, Larry spun backwards Another One Bites the Dust and I, myself, heard, "Why don't you smoke marijuana? Why don't you smoke marijuana?" But I never took their advice! ;-)
Grendelizer | 01.12.06 - 6:00 pm | #

Athor Pel,

You are correct about my phrase instill. I should have said maintain that desire. As a professor for many, many years, I find that the one thing most college students lack is the desire. The question most often asked by little children, "Why?" The question least asked by college students, "Why?"

Thanks for reminding me.

Bill
Bill | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 6:02 pm | #

Hey, blame it on Larry! I've never even been drunk, not once! Never saw the point. . .

Me? Well, in my early college years I fit your description (although I would have never listened to Stairway to Heaven, forwards or backwards), what school was this?
Larry | 01.12.06 - 6:12 pm | #

And thank you, Bill, for getting us back on track.

College students don't ask "why?" because they've been trained by the system not to have a wide-ranging intellectual curiosity.

If the system allowed the total freedom to ask "why?" and didn't stifle dissent, we wouldn't even have debates about whether to allow intelligent design theories in the schools.
Grendelizer | 01.12.06 - 6:15 pm | #

Larry, if you weren't a Zeppelin fan, then you're not the Larry I'm referring to, although it would be fun to have that happy coincidence online.

School was a small, private Lutheran college in southern Minnesota.
Grendelizer | 01.12.06 - 6:18 pm | #

Much of what you people are saying is true. I have a finance degree I could just as soon use for toilet paper that cost my parents probably $60K for me to get. Yet I wouldn't trade my college years for anything. At no other time in life (except for the idle rich, perhaps) does one get to enjoy adult privledges w/o adult responsibility (I do not consider getting passing or even good grades in most subjects being "responsible" as it is simply not that difficult). Then it's all over and you have 40 years to look forward to in cubicle land.

Degree or no degree, most people will not snag the corner office or become successful entrepreneurs. I see my years spent in college forming friendships, partying and yes, delaying the inevitable as well spent. If y'all want to jump in the salt mines that much sooner, be my guest.
JCB | 01.12.06 - 6:42 pm | #

"Lord knows I did my best to embrace the three pillars of academia...booze, bitches, and bongs."

I've only embraced one, but it was embraced long before college, when the hormones kicked in at age 10.

"As far as Vox's comment about being able to teach a 4-year-old to read in a few months"

Early is good, but not nessecarily going to make your child a better reader. I didn't learn to read until about 6, in first grade, but by the end of the year I was the best in the class. I've been an avid (and fast) reader ever since.

"Anyway, I didn't believe backmasking was real until I heard it with my own ears."

It isn't real. But it's no surprise that you fell for it, being the "witness at your door" type.
Renee | 01.12.06 - 6:48 pm | #

I have mentioned this in the past. In New Mexico public school districts are permitted to temp hire people with bachelor degrees. Public school teachers with master degrees are far more permanent in their employment. Plus teachers with a master degree make more.

In the mid 90s I made a large amount of side cash tutoring "teachers" going back to college for their masters and doing their homework. It was crazy. Not one of them seemed to have any shame. They even referred me to their coworkers. Teachers with bachelor degrees get scared when they haven't finished their masters in the required 5 years to keep their jobs.

I'll repeat. At age 23, I had a profitable business doing homework for public school teachers.

TheWesman
TheWesman | 01.12.06 - 7:09 pm | #

VD:
I will be graduating from high school this summer, and it seems like my only options are to go to college or get a job with a modest salary. Whether a college degree is an indication of intellegence, or not, does not change that most employeers hire college graduates. Would you consider an 18 year old high school graduate more qualified for any given job than a 21 year old college graduate?
Andrew | 01.12.06 - 7:32 pm | #

ELO - Face the Music...

kcab nert... kcab nert!
Steveo | 01.12.06 - 7:46 pm | #

.
That's encouraging. Less competition in the workplace for us smart people. 75% or more of the young engineers I work with are either Asian or Indian.
.
.
the shizzle dizzle | 01.12.06 - 8:22 pm | #

Everyone knows that a degree merely indicates that the degree holder has the ability to learn and has the discipline to make it through the required courses. That is all. Without degrees, how is an employer supposed to get that information? Some may be brilliant but lack discipline, others may have discipline but not good at learning.

The old saying "'A' students invent the world, 'B' students manage the world and 'C' students OWN the world" is generally true. This says to me that there are three general types of personalities. The 'A' students are those who are interested in knowing for knowing's sake - not good in people handling, the 'B' students are not gifted enough or care enough about knowing but realize it is important to know and have a better handle on personal relations, the 'C' students don't care about estabished knowledge but they're great at knowing people - they're looking for something else. Those are the ones who will use the talents of the 'A' and 'B' students combined with their people handing skills to get what they are looking for. It takes different kinds of personalities and talents to make anything happen.

For example, I have a great business idea but I lack the business know-how to take it to the next stage. I have developed the complete idea and online application because I have a good 'A' mind. My limitations in the people handling and business require that I find a partner who has the qualities I lack. I'm looking for that 'C' student who knows how to make things happen - how to get that signature on the dotted line - something I would never in a thousand years be able to do. As the business gets launched, I would require more 'A' students to maintain the application's technical integrity, 'B' students for management and 'C' students to see that the business continues to grow - and I would be looking at their degrees as an indication of their personality and skills. It's not easy sizing up people, but a degree gives you something to go by.
Taylor | 01.12.06 - 8:28 pm | #

Andrew: "Would you consider an 18 year old high school graduate more qualified for any given job than a 21 year old college graduate?"

Take a look at Paul Graham's advice:

http://www.paulgraham.com/hiring.html
http://www.paulgraham.com/bronze.html

His advice: skip college and start your own company for the same dollars as tuition. The funniest comment in there:

In fact, if Bill [Gates] had finished college and gone to work for another company as we're suggesting, he might well have gone to work for Apple. And while that would probably have been better for all of us, it wouldn't have been better for him.
DannyHSDad | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 8:34 pm | #

College is great gift given to those who attend.

The smart way to go to college, if you do not plan to be a professional (lawyer, doctor, that ilk) is to go for the most interesting, yet simple,and CHEAP degree you can think of, say art history and do it ONLINE. Live away from home, take the FULL loan amount and buy a house with the extra dough. Work your butt off in all your free time, which you will have a lot of.

Save every dime you can to pay off that loan no *sooner* than 6 months after graduation, since it's free money until then.

While you're "in school" court the crap out of the job you really want, priming it to be ready for you when you have paper in hand. It does not matter if the job has squat to do with art history.

If you're on the four year plan, turn a house over at least once in the meantime, using loans to improve the kitchen and baths.If you can, invest the sizable balance every semester in something rock solid, but it must at least earn more than your mortagage interest. Easy enough today.

By the time you've received your diploma, you'll be set.
Alex | 01.12.06 - 8:35 pm | #

Alex, the best way to get a degree is to get a company paying for it. Work full time and study part time, with tuition reimbursement from the company. Then you'll be debt free and you'll get a meaningful degree and the necessary experience.

Otherwise, you're crazy for being in debt for a piece of paper (at least that's I'm trying to get my sons to understand before they become teenagers :-).
DannyHSDad | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 8:43 pm | #

Well, they have to have some activity for useless American women. They can't cook, clean, and take care of themselves and they won't have children. Why not have them master extra stupid pet tricks that are useless? It's like teaching a dog to fart while walking backwards. Kinda cute, if you are in the mood for it. Oh, to you feminists... Moooo... or is it now... Bark, arghhh, woof, bark... ???
Doom | 01.12.06 - 9:05 pm | #

Danny,

I was thinking of it mainly as a way for a poor guy to get into a house while he places himself in a good position for the future. Rules are rules.

He's gotta pay rent; it may as well be mortgage. And the money's F-R-E-E until you graduate and still then for 6 months and free again if you attend at least 6 hours of grad school, which is mostly a waste, but I digress.

Cheap school will run you 2 or 3 grand max. Chapel Hill is only a few grand for that matter. The loan will give you @ $13,000 per year. You don't have to take it all, but if you make it work for you, you can easily earn what you will owe, with no interest, during the day during school. Plus the extra is earning money itself. That's free money! Never turn down free money.

And remember, you gotta pay to live somewhere, so this way, you're not throwing away money on rent. The govt is paying your mortgage!(If need be that is - one could easily work in this scenario)

Rich guys can ignore this and remain pure, but my son wants a wife post haste and needs a palace to bring her home to. And a future wouldn't hurt his chances with her either. (He doesn't know I and some friends are already choosing her,heh, heh)
Alex | 01.12.06 - 10:54 pm | #

Speaking of back masking...

Anyone remember Professor Backwards?
He appeared on the Ed Sullivan show many, many times.

Unfortunately he was murdered. Some wag then stated that
no one answered his cries for "Pleh".
.
harry12 | 01.12.06 - 10:54 pm | #

Alex, I'm more convinced than ever before of the need to be debt free and want to not only make sure my sons "get it" but to live as an example. In fact, we currently are debt free (we sold our home and moved to a rental last month). I'm going to do my darnest to remain a freeman and not become a slave again ("The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender." Prov 22:7)

I heard from a friend raised as a Mennonite who was taught to never get debt other than for income producing assets (e.g., rental home with positive cash flow). I hope to drill that into my sons, too, but also [continue to] live it as well...
DannyHSDad | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 11:21 pm | #

I've only embraced one, but it was embraced long before college, when the hormones kicked in at age 10.--Renee

You deviant little wench you. *he says with intrigue* Do tell, do tell!
Ihatedashrub | Homepage | 01.12.06 - 11:24 pm | #

OT - Cthulu rising, or at least a fax in MN:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/ na...er_for_Gov.html

MINNEAPOLIS -- One gubernatorial candidate in Minnesota is giving a whole new meaning to the "dark side" of politics. A man who calls himself a satanic priest plans to run for governor on a 13-point platform that includes the public impaling of terrorists at the state Capitol building.

Jonathon Sharkey, also known as "The Impaler", plans to launch his gubernatorial campaign on - when else? - Friday the 13th. He'll make the announcement in Princeton.

"I'm going to be totally open and honest," said the 41-year-old leader of the "Vampyres, Witches and Pagans Party."

It is not so much as whether he is serious or not, but if the two party's candidates are up to their usual standards, he will be the lesser evil.
tz | Homepage | 01.13.06 - 12:15 am | #

College is good for single courses in science, math, art. It would be much better off as a trade school.You should not have to learn a ton of things you will not use in your life just to get a degree.

What's the point if it is not used in society? You could give someone a well rounded education and expand their horizons just by having a course that teaches a wide variety of subjects in one semester.
LightningAura | 01.13.06 - 1:41 am | #

I like your plan for funding college, Alex, except you ruin it with this:

"my son wants a wife post haste and needs a palace to bring her home to."

All I can say is, Run, boy, run! You're still young and you have your whole life in front of you! Don't do it!
Somboed | 01.13.06 - 8:21 am | #

JohnR–
I’ll do what any man does – I’ll realize it’s time to move on, accept my new responsibilities and I’ll do what needs to be done. That’s life, isn’t it?

Stevo –
Thanks for taking one of the reasons I like college and using it as if it is my only motivation to go. Damn, you got me good.

Grendelizer-
I pay. I work a full time job and a part time job during breaks from school (winter, summer and spring) and then I keep a part time job during the school months. I go to a state school so I can almost get by without needing student loans.
Hell, if my family could help me out I can tell you right now I'd have gone to a Christian college that I had my eyes on. But that just wasn't in the cards.

As far as being in an environment that promotes promiscuity, massive alcohol consumption and drug abuse, if you are strong in your faith in God then everything besides class, church and work becomes rather distant.
If you weren’t strong enough to avoid “booze, bitches and bongs” then don’t blame the environment. Frankly, I consider myself to be accountable for my own behavior.


And sorry about taking such a long time to respond...I wasn't able to get to a computer last night
diggs | 01.13.06 - 9:28 am | #

"My son wants a wife post haste."

Hormones, baby.

Now, to Renee: I don't know how the "backward masked" phrases got on the album, but they were there. You do understand, don't you, that I HEARD THEM WITH MY OWN EARS. Larry took of the belt from the turntable drive shaft, spinal the LP backwards with his finger, and the phrases were recognizable English. Now, unless Larry was a clever ventriloquist. . . .

But before I go any further, please clarify what you meant by saying, "It isn't real."
Grendelizer | 01.13.06 - 11:27 am | #

" I had 2 years of latin - 7th and 8th grades. French from 7th through 12th.

Shows my age.
A.K.A. "

Ditto on the two years of latin. We thought it was real cool to jabber away at school in a language very few could understand. Even better than using a secret code ring.

Then I had to learn Spanish (Southwest Mexican variety) to understand Fox's rejects.
LC | 01.13.06 - 12:17 pm | #

Some of you seem to be clinging to the mistaken belief that colleges can teach. University is mal-education. University retards learning. If you are going to college to chase tail I understand, but don’t confuse this with receiving a cutting edge education. Higher education with rob you of thousands of dollars and of years, to “teach” you what you can learn in 6 months with a trip to the library.

The only thing a degree proves is that you got a piece of paper.

It doesn't prove you are smart. It doesn't measure your capacity to learn. It doesn't even prove you attended school (I know first hand). It doesn't prove that you borrowed money for it, or paid cash.

The only thing a degree is of use is for jobs that require them or government licensed careers. Even then I could argue this as suspect. I've seen black market health care providers, and know a paralegal who pulls down 3x times the lawyers who work in her firm.

University is worse than public school. All the discussions of home schooling vs. public schooling we have had in past blog comments apply.

Most people buy into the lie that certain subjects and fields can only be taught and learned in school. Even when people know from past experience this is a lie, they will encourage others to repeat it.

When I first got out of college, I was blind to the how far cancer and decay had spread. It’s only gotten worse over the last 15 years.

Every few years I get bored and look to get some kicks a few hours a week and "go back to school". What I see is telling.

Most here probably don't have a problem with the argument that certain degrees are likely indicators of mal-education. Econ, Poli Sci and History degrees are good examples.

What about other degrees? From first hand experience, I can tell you these are almost just as bad. Most CS and IT majors can't program their way out of a do/while loop let alone build a software app. Most EE majors can't compute the gain on a transistor, let alone design an IC. How about MBA majors who cannot do math without a calculator, let alone comprehend double entry booking or complete tax returns. I know law majors who cannot write, let alone discuss the Constitution. I could make this list go on and on...

Sure there seem to be a few students that seem to pick up some pieces of knowledge on the way, but these people would have learned faster outside institutional learning.

TheWesman
TheWesman | 01.13.06 - 12:22 pm | #

diggs...

I took your post as tongue in cheek since you stated, "I'm another student pursuing a (worthless) political science/public administration degree." Obviously, you do not believe your degree to be worthless, yes?

And yes, college is fun, I hope you're having it... I did. BUT one big difference - my fun resulted in a TOTAL debt of $7,500 which is tiny in comparison to college students today.

In my opinion the most important letters you can earn from college now are:

ROI


My response was also tongue in cheek... AND more of an opportunity to pound Jill from Feministe who has so recently provided us with so much fun.

Kind regards,
Steveo
Steveo | 01.13.06 - 1:14 pm | #

"University is mal-education. University retards learning."
TheWesman | 01.13.06 - 12:22 pm |

Case in point: I took a Mass Comm. class to fill an elective requirement. The prof fielded the question, "Who are the Contras?"

The prof answered, "Well, uh, contra means against. So those are the people down in Nicaragua who are...you know, against the government. That's why they're called Contras."

I raised my hand, and told her that "Contra" is a shortening of the Spanish "contarrevolucionarios", or counterrevolutionaries. It is Marxist jargon denoting anyone who opposes a Marxist government.

The prof stared vacantly. After a moment she repeated, "It means against."

How's that for retarding learning?
Houston | 01.13.06 - 1:47 pm | #

but, if you don't go to college, how are you going to know which football team to cheer for?
Larry Thompson | Homepage | 01.13.06 - 2:33 pm | #

http://www.stopanimalid.org/index.php

Did you guys see that NAIS?

Does this mean I need to 'chip' my cat, and am I next???
Verlch | 01.13.06 - 2:36 pm | #

"You're just afraid of a strong, independent woman!"


They are so independent that they will rape you in divorce court!!! Take your house, alimoney and anything in the joint checking account!!!
Verlch | 01.13.06 - 2:43 pm | #

"(Yes, the alumni-hitter-uppers just LOVE talking to me... they haven't even bothered sending me a letter, much less giving me a call, in years now.)"

Please, PLEASE explain how you got them to leave you alone.
dweeb | 01.13.06 - 2:45 pm | #

Please, PLEASE explain how you got them to leave you alone.
dweeb | 01.13.06 - 2:45 pm |

I'm nearly 20 years gone from a minor California state college. I've moved to Texas and they still send little begging form letters. Last time they tried to exploit the death of one of my PoliSci profs: give in his memory!
Houston | 01.13.06 - 2:53 pm | #

Another Example:

An outfit I was working for had a job opening. I was asked to help with the interview questions. My boss asked me if there was anything I wanted to ask the applicants. I said sure, "Ask them to hand write two pages on any subject or topic of their choosing."

I got laughed at for suggesting such a thing. I heard the argument, "We want to know if the applicants can use MS-Word not write by hand." My answer was, "If they can write they will know how to use MS-Word, and if not I can teach a word processor in 10 minutes to someone who can write."

The next argument I heard was, "How can we judge the answer if we don't give specify the question?" I told my boss, "Don't worry about it. Trust me. You'll learn more from that question then all the others combined."

What was learned from this written test was more eye opening than I would have guessed. Not one applicant out of the 10 top picks could do it, not one.

Now I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, and I've certainly done my share of butchering the English language. However, I know a train wreck when I see one.

Reviewing the applicants work was comical. One applicant wrote "RRREEEAAALL BBBIIIGGG" and quit after 3 sentences. Another couldn't use a period, comma, or capital letter. None of them could construct a complete and coherent thought. None made it past half a page. Most didn't know what a paragraph was. All turned in their first drafts as their final. Not one asked if the assignment had a time limit (It didn't). Most cracked and gave up in the first 10 minutes. Some looked like they wanted to cry.

99% of the posters on this blog could have out scored the tested applicants.

TheWesman
TheWesman | 01.13.06 - 2:56 pm | #

WesMan, your applicants had it easier than they know. I've got a textbook on ancient history in my library (published circa 1900) which asks about ten essay questions at the end of each chapter. Typical level of difficulty: "Suppose this particular Greek city-state were situated on the east rather than the west coast of the Corinthian Isthmus. Describe how and why its commercial and political development would have followed a different course."
Houston | 01.13.06 - 3:09 pm | #

I have been watching schooling related threads and articles for a couple years.

There used to be a couple of passionate "schooling" fans or "educators" who would show up and defend "schooling", but no one this time.

Does anyone think there has been progress in getting Holt's, Gatto's, et al's ideas to the public?
Gene | 01.13.06 - 3:35 pm | #

There used to be a couple of passionate "schooling" fans or "educators" who would show up and defend "schooling", but no one this time.

Does anyone think there has been progress in getting Holt's, Gatto's, et al's ideas to the public?
Gene | 01.13.06 - 3:35 pm |

I think so. Another reason is that home schooling proponents are wise to the whole "kids need to be socialized" argument, and have formulated several convincing rebuttals to it.
Houston | 01.13.06 - 4:02 pm | #

So pay $200 and get a correspondence school diploma or community college degree, whatever. The intelligent person recognizes the game and uses the rules to his advantage.

Or work for a company that pays tuition reiumbursement and take the courses you want then.
That is what I am doing, since I already paid for my first M.A. I figure that the 2nd M.A. somebody else should pay for it.

At the end of it all I'll have a nice piece of paper to show off to other paper holders so we can compare whose paper is nicer.

Ironically enough I'll probably end up pulling a Nate and stay at home with the boys... which is fine with me. The piece of paper is a hoop to jump through to earn some more money while I give my brain a little bit of exercise and deal with classmates that shouldn't have been passed through HS.
MR | 01.13.06 - 5:20 pm | #

"I don't know how the "backward masked" phrases got on the album, but they were there. You do understand, don't you, that I HEARD THEM WITH MY OWN EARS."

And people believe that ghosts are talking to them through white noise too.

Let me ask you this: has someone ever been talking to you, and you here them say something completely weird- and you repeat it back to them what you heard, and they laugh and tell you no, telling you what they actually said?

I think we all have. In this case, the person was speaking actual human words- and you heard something completely different. It's not a wonder that sounds played backward can sound like human words.

In technology, pattern recognition is that hardest to program. Humans amazing at it. But we're so good that we hear pattens in sounds that have no intentional pattern, and can even interpret things incorrectly that do have an intentional pattern.

Yes, you heard it, but that doesn't mean that I believe that it was intentional or even remarkably close. I've said before that I don't trust other people's experiences, because I understand how fallible my own senses are.
Renee | 01.13.06 - 6:04 pm | #

Renee, we're at an impasse. I'll let it go. No big deal. Nevermind.
Grendelizer | 01.13.06 - 6:06 pm | #

"You deviant little wench you. *he says with intrigue* Do tell, do tell!"

I'm not sure if I should, Zuukie might scratch my eyes out, or at the very least accuse me of being popular because I'm sexually suggestive. But I can't help it, brazen sexuality is part of my real life personality and my online one too.
Renee | 01.13.06 - 6:10 pm | #

"Renee, we're at an impasse. I'll let it go. No big deal. Nevermind."

Depends on what the definition of "is" is *grin.*
Renee | 01.13.06 - 6:11 pm | #

" 'I don't know how the "backward masked" phrases got on the album, but ... I HEARD THEM WITH MY OWN EARS.'

And people believe that ghosts are talking to them through white noise too." -- Renee

Renee - there are more things under heaven and earth than are dreamt of...
or something like that.

Do a little more research; there was a fellow in Denver a couple years back that marketed a tape recorder (easily duplicated, of course) that would run backwards, and at variable speed. He did the talk circuit, live demos, etc.

He made a pretty good case that it was real human psyche at work- where the hidden intent came out in reverse. (In engineering there are mathematical processes -- convolution comes to mind -- where a time-reversed function has real value.)

My favorite was WJKlinton-isms; on the quote where he said, "I never had sex with that woman" in reverse could clearly be heard something like "I boffed her."
Mark Call | 01.13.06 - 7:53 pm | #

Yes, you heard it, but that doesn't mean that I believe that it was intentional or even remarkably close. I've said before that I don't trust other people's experiences, because I understand how fallible my own senses are.
****
I wonder if the following is possible, not that I would know anything about the creative process;

Let's say a rock-n-roll musician, for example, was inspired to write a cool song but needed a jump start. What could they try?

How about; record some interesting wordage, then play it backward to see if it sounded close to any phrase a song could actually be written around. Why? Because people would go nuts over the song and it would sell millions of copies.

Do you think that is possible, Renee?
Gene | 01.13.06 - 8:05 pm | #

That's what happens when we mistake credentialing with educating.
Ted | Homepage | 01.13.06 - 8:56 pm | #

"with" = "for"
Ted | Homepage | 01.13.06 - 8:58 pm | #

Zuukie might scratch my eyes out, or at the very least accuse me of being popular because I'm sexually suggestive.
****
Age isn't everything. One of my closest friends is a 45 year old jaw-dropping, 10. Zuukie could very well be hotter than you Renee, but with too much class to talk about it.
Gene | 01.13.06 - 9:27 pm | #

Someone get Renee ELO's Face the music album...

Listen to the beginning of Fire on High... when he's saying kcab nert... kcab nert... etc...

What was recorded backwards and included in the track (intentional backmasking) was "the music is reversible but time is not... turn back, turn back."

Stop the album (vinyl) on the turntable (round thingy) and spin it backwards with your finger while your needle (pointy thing on the end of the tone arm, the bouncy thingy) and you can hear him say exactly that.
Steveo | 01.13.06 - 9:38 pm | #

the band Jughead's Revenge summed it up best - "my accounting degree, makes it so easy, to figure 40 times the minimum wage."
I work in a student loan company. I am also going to school. But a lot of people go when they're not ready, and some shouldn't go at all because it is not their path to get to their career choice.
Be careful with student loans... you literally can't get out of them unless you die (even in bankruptcy).
Ashley M. P. | Homepage | 01.14.06 - 1:13 am | #

Be careful with student loans... you literally can't get out of them unless you die (even in bankruptcy).
****
Why would you want to get out of a loan without paying it back?
Gene | 01.14.06 - 1:20 am | #

Considering how many lyrics are mis-heard playing normally, I'd say backwards masking is probably bullshit.
Michael Maier | 01.16.06 - 1:29 am | #

you literally can't get out of them unless you die (even in bankruptcy). -

Ashley M. P.



Ah yes, student loans. They are among the 3 debts that are near impossible to get out of. The other 2 are taxes and child support.

TheWesman
TheWesman | 01.17.06 - 2:06 pm | #

At this point, anyone's lingering doubts that public "education" is intentionally designed to make the proletariat more ignorant and controllable should have been long removed.
It now boasts of its non-accomplishment regularly, demands more money to achieve it, and the OMFR in Congress happily lend it, because it empowers them further.
Home-schoolers can look forward to being declared "terrorist training centers" or somesuch BS under HitleryClit and thus eliminated, because once absolute power to mold (deform) young minds is given to Der Schtaat and its mafia-protected, entrenched bureaucracies, they will not give it up without a fight to the death.
Ted | Homepage | 01.19.06 - 12:01 am | #