It only gets better:

Update I chose the word "sociopath" quite deliberately. I think parents who leave their children unvaccinated are the moral equivalent of people who drive drunk. I imagine the person in my comments who contracted measles at 15 months from an unvaccinated child, and ended up with permanent corneal scarring, feels even less kindly than I do.
Wendy | 03.24.08 - 3:22 pm | #

Then again, demanding trouble seems to be what the US government is good at these days.
Paladin | 03.24.08 - 3:25 pm | #

So how does not being allowed to use public roads, public sidewalks, or public services amount to not being forced? Its like saying, if you dont get vaccinated you cannot work or eat, But hey, you can do whatever you want!

Idiot. Maybe her head has been damaged by vaccines?
Erik | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 6:34 am | #

And this gem from the top of her column
Erik | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 6:39 am | #

(Come on Haloscan!) And this gem from the top of her column For instance, in a 2006 mumps outbreak in Iowa that infected 219 people, the majority of those sickened had been vaccinated.

How did that vaccine help those people? Vaccines are supposed to stop people from getting a disease. If they dont work, why pay for them? There is of course the beneficial placebo affect, but that could be gotten with a magical bracelet or crystal or "lucky" rabbit's foot for much cheaper.
Erik | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 6:40 am | #

I agree to a point. Thimerisol as preservative is merely a expedience so that vaccine manufacturers can create a viable product and hence a reliable source of revenue. There’s no excuse there. As a side note: yet another place where PUBLIC health and PUBLIC service should rule, and not private enterprise.
Vaccine as a voluntary choice? I can't see any other route, but the only reason such a question is being countenanced is because modern generations haven't lived through Smallpox epidemics or bubonic plague. Here's one of my problems with the libertarian thread that wends its way through this blog. Just as you purport that atheism parasitizes off religious morality, so libertarianism does off the concerted effort of group unity. Conformation to vaccination schedule ridded the world of Smallpox, largely of polio, etc. The British and American public conformed to dictate, rationing, personal denial, etc. to defeat fascism. When the air-raid sirens howled they turned out the lights, filed uncomfortably into the shelters, gave up space for the infirm. The libertarian knows nothing of sacrifice or communal obligation.
I doubt you even understand what "herd immunity" is, at percentage does a community come at risk, and what happens when it does. Do you understand the ravages of infectious disease. Vaccination before 2 yrs old? Be thankful your child MAKES it to 2 yrs. old. A few hundred years ago a large double-digit percent wouldn’t
Beelzebub | 03.25.08 - 6:42 am | #

The British and American public conformed to dictate, rationing, personal denial, etc. to defeat fascism.
BXBB

Well that was a wasted effort then, wasn't it?
.
zeno | 03.25.08 - 6:57 am | #

Sorry, don't mean to belabor the point, and I'm not attacking anyone particularly, but I'm "getting the vapors" as VD would say about this:

Don't you see how your libertarian ideology is dictating how you view this? At least admit me that. To wit:

- Vaccination is a group process
- Libertarianism postulates the primacy of individual volition, hence
- Vaccination must be wrong

Vaccination seen thru your libertarian lens must therefore be something to resist. I can't help concluding libertarianism is simply piggybacking off the civilized inroads of modern existence. In other words, it's a luxury.
Beelzebub | 03.25.08 - 7:00 am | #

Beelzbub,

A large portion of what you credit to vaccines is actually due to greater sanitation. The Bubonic plague? Are you serious? How many of us live in such unsanitary conditions? I would say less than one tenth of one percent in America. If that.

Unsafe food and water were the problems affecting mortality in centuries past, as well as simple lack. Infant mortality dropped when food and water became more reliable, around the time of the Industrial Revolution. I shouldn't have to remind you that that was a long time before vaccinations.

It is true that many libertarians didn't live thru WWII, but then, how much of the population has? But that is really irrelevant anyways. Hardship should really just confirm the need for self reliance and close familial groups, not reliance upon the herd. The herd won't be helping you out, nor will you be able to help out the herd, except by taking care of yourself and your close friends and family.
Erik | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 7:01 am | #

What do you mean zenmeister, as I recall, we won the war.
Beelzebub | 03.25.08 - 7:02 am | #

We won the battle, but the war has been lost. Fascism took root in our western nations and now there is no "America" to battle it for us.
Erik | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 7:04 am | #

I agree that parents should choose. I do wish to address one misconception. Vaccinated persons can get the disease: a break in the cold chain, a poor response in some individuals. It means little to say the majority of persons who got the vaccine got infected: this is always going to be the case in highly vaccinated areas. What you need to measure is the proportion of children who got sick with and without the vaccine.

Quoting raw numbers and not comparing like with like is used by statistical incompetents or the intellectually dishonest.
bethyada | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 7:05 am | #

Erik,
That may be true of the bub plague, but not for things like Smallpox, polio, and just about any other virus. Sanitation isn't going to save you from them.
"Herd activity" to use your derogatory term isn't as effective after the sh hits the fan as it is a preventative measure (as in vaccination). Once the sh comes down you want to GET AWAY FROM THE HERD, as mass psychology is rather unpredictable, and rather deadly.
Beelzebub | 03.25.08 - 7:06 am | #

Beelzebub, I am very pro vaccination (though the US schedule sounds a little excessive). Yes the benefits for many (not necessarily all) vaccines are a group benefit. So what? You can't force law abiding citizens to place into their persons something just because you see the benefit.

Don't you see how draconian your position is? I would rather live with much more risk and less security and have my freedom. How much is life worth living as a slave to the well intentioned?

bethyada, do this because it is in your best interest even though you don't agree with me and it is best for the society.

You don't care for me other than how my cog best fits into your machine.
bethyada | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 7:12 am | #

Off topic but is this Nate' letterbox? http://www.allowe.com/Humor/sigh...owser.php? j=513
bethyada | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 7:14 am | #

best way for kids to get 'healthy' *IS* to get sick and build anti-bodies.....

kids need to eat more dirt!
Rory | 03.25.08 - 7:22 am | #

bethyada,
That not exactly my point, but I can't blame you because I'm only formulating a point, or rather a question. If that were my point I would agree with you. You can't force people to do what's in their best interest, but when what's in their best interest becomes manifestly apparent, people come together into unified action. Why? And why do people split apart without exigency? And even forget there was ever a need for unity. In short, libertarianism: Why?
Beelzebub | 03.25.08 - 7:24 am | #

I posted this over at the OP in response to some of the idiotic non-reasoning:

Let's try someone's reasoning on in a different way, and see how it flies. Then maybe you'll understand the reason why SOME parents reject SOME vaccinations:

The real reason people don't want their kids to wear body armor when they walk down the street is that they know the chance of being shot by a mad sniper is low--thanks to the police.

This is pretty much the dictionary definition of sociopath.

Since there's a risk of mad snipers out there, and it seems to be increasing, aren't you all being bad parents for sending your kids out in public without bulletproof vests? Well? Aren't you being "sociopaths"?

It seems that most of the "pro" argument came from people who regard the public indoctrination system as being a given, too--such as "Kids get sick because they're all crowded together during the day, so they need vaccines." I added this:

And as I'm planning to homeschool [my daughter], she's not going to be exposed to all those sick kids crammed into a small room together for eight hours a day. She'll be dealing with other children only at home (siblings) or in open-air environments (playgrounds). (There's not a lot of value in dealing with poorly-raised and undereducated children in the long run, anyway, unless you're a teacher...I was emotionally ready for college at 15 because I learned to deal with adults, and therefore THINK like an adult.) Where, pray, is she going to catch polio?

I think people are too scared of sick-bugs. Modern medicine has brought us vaccines, but it's also brought us proper medical care. When I caught the chicken pox, my mom took me to the doctor immediately, and then managed my symptoms. Vaccines are no replacement for the parents' watchful eyes.
Mrs. Pilgrim | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 7:37 am | #

For the children who are affected negatively by vaccines, it is definitely not in their best interest to have been vaccinated.

Obviously, the State is willing to take the risk of sacrificing some individuals. As usual, the risk for the individual is catastophic, while the risk to the State is negligible.

.
zeno | 03.25.08 - 7:40 am | #

kids need to eat more dirt!
Rory | 03.25.08 - 7:22 am | #

I ate dirt when I was a toddler. I got sick every April and September.

...But it turns out that those months were the blooming seasons for the hedge in our backyard, to which I'm allergic. If my mom had paid a little more attention, I would have been VERY healthy.

Instead, my parents assumed that I was a "sickly child," and I got every shot known to man--which also made me sickly.
Mrs. Pilgrim | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 7:40 am | #

I have libertarian ideals because I think people are fallen. So a government that does the little minimises infractions on men's liberty. This leaves government to do little bar enforce contracts (justice, property rights etc.). It is not saying I wish to do illegal activity and leave me alone, my limits to right and wrong are greater than government's. It is saying that I won't use my power to force you to behave agaisnt your beliefs and you will do likewise. There are many evils of governments, the greatest by far is forcing men to act in a way they consider immoral.
bethyada | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 7:41 am | #

Rory kids need to eat more dirt!

Rather they need more sun, it is the vitamin D that likely improves immunity.
bethyada | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 7:44 am | #

"Don't get me wrong, vaccines aren't inherently bad. A limited and voluntary schedule of individual doses at a somewhat older age, spread out over time, is a perfectly reasonable program... in fact, that's how most adults over thirty today were vaccinated. But pumping infants full of toxins that have never been tested in combination with each other, 19 shots in the first six months, isn't just asking for trouble, it's demanding it. - VD"


Don't you see how your libertarian ideology is dictating how you view this? At least admit me that. To wit:

- Vaccination is a group process
- Libertarianism postulates the primacy of individual volition, hence
- Vaccination must be wrong

Vaccination seen thru your libertarian lens must therefore be something to resist.
Beelzebub | 03.25.08 - 7:00 am | #


Beelzebub, can you read?
Salt | 03.25.08 - 8:09 am | #

STDs are a real current public health crisis. Perhaps chastity belts for the unlicensed?

Should people who engage in medically risky behavior be in the public venues?

If Abagail Adams saw today in 1776, she wouldn't write about the lack of women's representation as a glaring omission, but as the blessing of God's providence.

Men too can be stupid, but most don't insist on parading it in public.
tz | 03.25.08 - 8:12 am | #

Beelzebub, you seem to have failed to notice that the vast improvement in public health precedes vaccination in general. And even the eradication of the diseases you mention precedes the introduction of the mandate for the increased vaccination of the current schedule, which just happens to coincide with an explosion of other health issues.

Vaccinate against polio and tetanus when the children are of walking age. But are you seriously worrying about a lethal chickenpox epidemic?
VD | 03.25.08 - 8:19 am | #

Note - I did not point out Beelzebub's illogic. Why should I? Such would be a few grade levels above that which he failed in the first place. Would have been wasted effort.
Salt | 03.25.08 - 8:20 am | #

STDs are a real current public health crisis. Perhaps chastity belts for the unlicensed?

Should people who engage in medically risky behavior be in the public venues?
tz | 03.25.08 - 8:12 am | #

There once was a measure used to prevent the spreading of communicable diseases by known carriers: quarantine.

The true story of Typhoid Mary is an interesting one. She was a carrier, she knew she was a carrier, she declined to use basic sanitation, and caused her employers and families to become quite ill. She was committing a crime, actually (a form of assault, you could argue, or "reckless endangerment"; if anyone had died, it would have been voluntary manslaughter)...
Mrs. Pilgrim | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 8:22 am | #

Mr. Day,

So what's the big deal with a few hundred or a few thousand kids being born autistic in a country of 300 million?

You could probably make a good case that more kids are lost because of dog bites, or skateboarding accidents, or fire, or what have you.

Abortion takes out hundreds of thousands per year. Autism takes out what, a few thousand?

If a parent wants to do the research and avoid some of the vaccinations, that would be prudent. But most young couples have never even heard of mumps, rubella, diphtheria, tetanus, or Hep B.

As in most other areas, the smart people will make the prudent choice, the rest will blunder along doing what they are told.

Now, if we can just get the millions of young illegal alien parents to study up (first learning to read and then learning to speak English) on the dangers of modern vaccinations, we'll have it made. Right?
Eddie | 03.25.08 - 8:22 am | #

Vox, do you mind if I poke my nose into this one?

So what's the big deal with a few hundred or a few thousand kids being born autistic in a country of 300 million?

See my twist on things above. "What's the big deal with a few hundred or thousand kids developing back and other joint problems from wearing bulletproof armor?"

By the way: (1) they're not BORN autistic, but made so by reactions to the vaccine; (2) you obviously don't have autistic relatives; and (3) you're forgetting about parental autonomy in making informed judgments about their children's health needs.

Abortion takes out hundreds of thousands per year. Autism takes out what, a few thousand?

I hate that sort of rabbit trail; it's usually brought up by people who want to change the subject. Such as: "Why are you fussing so hard about gay marriage, which affects so few people, when MILLIONS OF CHILDREN ARE STARVING TO DEATH IN AFRICA?!?!?!"

But most young couples have never even heard of mumps, rubella, diphtheria, tetanus, or Hep B.

Really? Are you sure about that? Stats, please. (And why do you class Hep-B among the other diseases?)

As in most other areas, the smart people will make the prudent choice, the rest will blunder along doing what they are told.

Police-state argument.

Now, if we can just get the millions of young illegal alien parents to study up (first learning to read and then learning to speak English) on the dangers of modern vaccinations, we'll have it made. Right?

A better idea yet would be keeping them out entirely, right? An ounce of prevention being worth a pound of cure and all that...
Mrs. Pilgrim | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 8:31 am | #

So what's the big deal with a few hundred or a few thousand kids being born autistic in a country of 300 million?
Eddie

So what's the big deal about a few thousand people getting (fill in disease here) from not getting vaccinated?

(Just a technical observation, but isn't this the 2nd time this month VD has agreed with Me So? )
.
zeno | 03.25.08 - 8:43 am | #

Anyone have a sane vaccination schedule?
Earth and All Stars | 03.25.08 - 8:47 am | #

Anybody remember the Swine Flu Vaccine Scam of the 1970's?

Drug companies making big money and killing people with impunity at the same time.

.
zeno | 03.25.08 - 8:56 am | #

So what's the big deal with a few hundred or a few thousand kids being born autistic in a country of 300 million?
Eddie

So what's the big deal about a few thousand people getting (fill in disease here) from not getting vaccinated?

So what's the big deal about a few thousand people (out of a country of 300 million) getting killed from being in Iraq?

Something about having to break a few eggs.....

And the "big deal" is that the incidence rate of autism has risen exponentially over the past 10-15 years, indicating a direct cause-effect relationship.
Inquiring Minds | 03.25.08 - 9:23 am | #

Anybody remember the Swine Flu Vaccine Scam of the 1970's?

Drug companies making big money and killing people with impunity at the same time.

.
zeno

I remember it, And I did not get the vaccine.
Starbuck | 03.25.08 - 9:26 am | #

Wow, this woman claims to be a libertarian?

Reading the comments to her post is just amazing. I never thought I would meet a group of Nazi-libertarians, but there they are.
Conan the Cimmerian | 03.25.08 - 9:31 am | #

I just think that people who are unvaccinated, unless they have a legitimate medical reason for same, should not be allowed to use public roads, public sidewalks, or public services.

...but they should still be forced to pay for, and maintain, these public roads, sidewalks and services. I'm sure she'd agree with that.
Pablo | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 9:35 am | #

So what's the big deal with a few hundred or a few thousand kids being born autistic in a country of 300 million?

Depends on your perspective. If you believe they are created Imago Dei, it's a preventable tragedy. If you believe they are merely the result of naturally selected lumps of energy, then of course the particular form of their manifestation doesn't matter at all.

You could probably make a good case that more kids are lost because of dog bites, or skateboarding accidents, or fire, or what have you.

Actually, you can't. Dog bites kill around 15 people/year total, for example. But you're right, those who don't mind abortion shouldn't mind a few autistic children, and in fact, most don't seem to.
VD | 03.25.08 - 9:38 am | #

Well more droolie kids give them liberal douches more opportunity to show just how compassionate they is by having the police state stick a gun in my face and ask for some more "contributions" for "public health issues".
Michael Maier | 03.25.08 - 9:42 am | #

anytime I hear the phrase 'well, its for the common good', i get chills up and down my spine.
trk | 03.25.08 - 9:42 am | #

I'm thirty-seven years old and I think I have a recollection of maybe getting one "vaccine," once. I'm not sure.

I had chickenpox when I was a kid. It was a miserable few days. Ehh. Ya get over it.

When my first daughter was about to be born, my wife and I were very intent on getting just the right pediatrician. After all we had already decided on natural child-birth and retained a midwife.

We asked all the right questions when interviewing pediatricians. One of the first questions - and the first to disqualify many - was their position on vaccination. One - just one - pediatrician that we interviewed said that she would "explain the risks and benefits but in the end, it's your decision."

So we went to her.

The child was born in a birth center with a midwife, naturally. I took the child to her newborn check-up with that pediatrician a few hours later and everything was well.

At the "two week check-up" (check-up for whom, exactly?) that same doctor informed us that she had a batch of "shots" ready for our two-week-old child and intended to administer a battery of vaccinations. I politely refused. She politely refused to accept my refusal.

I got less polite. And so did she.

I said, "You told us that you would support our decisions on these matters. That's why we chose you as our pediatrician!"

To which she replied, "It is your choice. But I never said I would support your decision. If you refuse these mandatory vaccinations, I can no longer be your pediatrician."

I calmly said, "Please hand me my child." When the child was in my arms, I said, "You can no longer be our pediatrician. It has nothing to do with mandatory anything. It's because you're a liar and a shill."

As we were walking out, she was following us down the hall yelling, but I don't know what. I was done.

My daughters are nine and seven and neither have ever had a vaccination. They've also never been to a doctor on my watch since that incident. They haven't needed it. I haven't been to a doctor in 25 years.

Doctors are like mechanics except they have a better union. If it ain't broke, it don't need fixin'. I maintain my own automobiles and I know - at least as well as the doctors (if not better) - how to maintain a body. When it's broke, we'll hire you and pay you a fair wage for your service. Until then, STFU.

Sue me. Everybody else has. You'll lose too.
digitalcowboy | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 9:47 am | #

DC, that's a scary story. I'm now fully grateful to the Lord that our excellent primary-care physicial referred us to our excellent pediatrician...
Mrs. Pilgrim | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 9:58 am | #

Yeah, but you're a lawyer, aren't ya, Mrs. P?
digitalcowboy | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 10:04 am | #

It's just like Peanut butter. Someone will have an adverse reaction. Didn't the government take Peanut butter out of schools. I have seen older patients who supposedly contracted Polio through the old Polio vaccines. Anyhow I'm taking my children to China to see family, so I'm making sure they have their hepatitis vaccinations.
Troy | 03.25.08 - 10:14 am | #

Yeah, but you're a lawyer, aren't ya, Mrs. P?
digitalcowboy | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 10:04 am

Well, that's not her fault, dc. I don't think they've come up with a vaccination for that one, yet.
Clay | 03.25.08 - 10:24 am | #

Troy - people still get polio from vaccines - in the US it's the only cause of polio. The live vaccine is still given in developing countries because it offers greater immunity than the killed virus vaccine. Most of the diseases that vaccines are given for are not fatal.
Spacebunny | 03.25.08 - 10:29 am | #

I'm thirty-seven years old and I think I have a recollection of maybe getting one "vaccine," once. I'm not sure.

I had chickenpox when I was a kid. It was a miserable few days. Ehh. Ya get over it.

When my first daughter was about to be born, my wife and I were very intent on getting just the right pediatrician. After all we had already decided on natural child-birth and retained a midwife.

We asked all the right questions when interviewing pediatricians. One of the first questions - and the first to disqualify many - was their position on vaccination. One - just one - pediatrician that we interviewed said that she would "explain the risks and benefits but in the end, it's your decision."

So we went to her.

The child was born in a birth center with a midwife, naturally. I took the child to her newborn check-up with that pediatrician a few hours later and everything was well.

At the "two week check-up" (check-up for whom, exactly?) that same doctor informed us that she had a batch of "shots" ready for our two-week-old child and intended to administer a battery of vaccinations. I politely refused. She politely refused to accept my refusal.

I got less polite. And so did she.

I said, "You told us that you would support our decisions on these matters. That's why we chose you as our pediatrician!"

To which she replied, "It is your choice. But I never said I would support your decision. If you refuse these mandatory vaccinations, I can no longer be your pediatrician."

I calmly said, "Please hand me my child." When the child was in my arms, I said, "You can no longer be our pediatrician. It has nothing to do with mandatory anything. It's because you're a liar and a shill."

As we were walking out, she was following us down the hall yelling, but I don't know what. I was done.

My daughters are nine and seven and neither have ever had a vaccination. They've also never been to a doctor on my watch since that incident. They haven't needed it. I haven't been to a doctor in 25 years.

Doctors are like mechanics except they have a better union. If it ain't broke, it don't need fixin'. I maintain my own automobiles and I know - at least as well as the doctors (if not better) - how to maintain a body. When it's broke, we'll hire you and pay you a fair wage for your service. Until then, STFU.

Sue me. Everybody else has. You'll lose too.
digitalcowboy | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 9:47 am | #

Thanks DC great story!
OneJohn512 | 03.25.08 - 10:30 am | #

Mr. Day,

I didn't mean to say the kids were born with autism. I meant the kids became autistic as a result of the vaccinations.

But what confuses me is how could you expect the average young mother to have the knowledge to rationally analyze the risk to benefit ratio for a dozen diseases she's never heard of, considering biological concepts she's unaware of, and risks she's unsure of?

You don't believe these young women are capable of rationally choosing their president or congressmen, yet you expect them to analyze complex statistical and biological data in medical journals?

I had to agree with the second doctor's email (the Malkin link) when he said he could easily be sued into the poorhouse by these parents who chose not to go the full vaccination route. The only prudent thing for the doctor is to tell the parents goodbye and good luck.

Your criticism or the idiot who wanted to prevent unvaccinated kids from using public facilities. Women yap without thinking. Nuff said.
Eddie | 03.25.08 - 10:32 am | #

meant to say your criticism of her was well founded.
Eddie | 03.25.08 - 10:34 am | #

From zeno's swine flu link:

A FEW CONGRESSMEN BLAST THE SWINE FLU HOAX

Not all of our Congressmen are hopeless. Some are actually on our side. Congressman Ron Paul of Texas is also a doctor and is able to see both sides of the swine flu question. Most doctors have tunnel vision and see only one side — the side with the dollar mark.

Congressman Paul, in an interview with the Enquirer (Dec. 21, 76) said: "I am outraged by this program. It has been a shocking misuse of funds ... and an evil political maneuver. There are people whose careers are in question because of this program. And I predict these blatant advertising efforts to panic the people into taking swine flu shots will fail.

Seems I've heard of that guy before...
What a nut!! ;)
jimmyb | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 10:55 am | #

Update I chose the word "sociopath" quite deliberately. I think parents who leave their children unvaccinated are the moral equivalent of people who drive drunk. I imagine the person in my comments who contracted measles at 15 months from an unvaccinated child, and ended up with permanent corneal scarring, feels even less kindly than I do.

And just what "morality" would that be? I thought people like her were eager to get the government out of the "morality" business.

Just another case of the usual twits who are always so enthused to tell other people how to raise their children when they're not contracepting and aborting their own out of existence.

If you want to have a say on how children are raised go have your own.

Hippolytus | 03.25.08 - 11:12 am | #

It's all about fear. Be afraid because you are at risk and risk avoidance must be pursued at any cost.

Never, and I mean never, make any decision based upon fear.
Art | 03.25.08 - 11:15 am | #

Sue me. Everybody else has. You'll lose too.
digitalcowboy

I don't want to sue you. You seem like a smart enough fellar. I am sure you can raise your kids without my help. You have done pretty good so far. Why can't 99.999% of the parents be like that too?

Maybe I should sue them and get some of my money back!

off thread just a little. A lady I know of (an idiot) has 3 kids, by 3 different men. Her present boyfriend got hauled off to jail. They both got huge tax refunds and together they made about 20,000 last year. So with the earned income credit and other credits she got $6,000 and he got $3000 (give or take). Between the 2 they had about $9000. The paid the rent, bought some food. Then went and had parties and went out, bought a 1000 truck (ya, I know, it was junk) then promptly took about 6 or 7 thousand to the casinos and lost it all. Now he is in jail and she can't support her and her 3 kids.
They asked me for money, again, I refused. (They never paid me from the previous 2 times) And they went ape shit. Now it is my fault he is in jail, he got mad and beat the lady. She is depressed and miserable. Threatening suicide if I don't give her money. I told her to go ahead. So I am the bad guy... sigh...

What I am wondering is why on earth are the democrats wanting to give poor families so much money? Are they insisting on making the indians(casinos) wealthier? Because gambling like that is the poormans wall street. That money did them no good, infact one could argue it was bad for them.
Starbuck | 03.25.08 - 11:18 am | #

DC, I love your story. We vaccinated our first children like good sheep. Staring with number 4 we questioned and refused some vaccines. When 7 & 8 were born(twins, 7 at home and 1 in hospital) the pediatrician told us we had to accept his minimum standard of care(2 days in hospital, Vit K, eye phropalactic and some immunization or he would not remain our ped. We told him we would miss him and left. That has been 3 1/2 years and we still haven't needed a pediatrician.

Doctors(like govt)have a God complex. They expect to be obeyed, not questioned.
Father of 9 | 03.25.08 - 11:18 am | #

God complex... heh, snicker.. HA!

They have their heads too far up their backside to see the patient before them.
Starbuck | 03.25.08 - 11:20 am | #

Threatening suicide if I don't give her money. I told her to go ahead. So I am the bad guy... sigh...
Starbuck | 03.25.08 - 11:18 am | #


I'm sure there is a street corner you could direct her to where her financial distress could be alleviated. Given her 3 kids by 3 different men, I'm sure it would soon become 4, with the added benefit of more free money coming in.
Salt | 03.25.08 - 11:27 am | #

I'd be curious as to what position the Japanese take on childhood, (or adult, for that matter), vaccinations.

I was halfway paying attention to a news clip the other day, where some Japanese pitcher had come to the US, and made it in the big leagues. His name Muji Fukajawa, or something like that. Don't remember what team he plays for, but they said he'd signed a 52 million dollar contract with some team...that caught my attention.

Anyway, his team, and some other MBL team were in Japan to play an exhibition game, and they Japanese press were treating him like a rock star.

I looked up from what I was reading, and I noticed the Japanese camera crews, and many of the Japanese reporters were all wearing surgical masks.

I've seen past news clips of the Japanese pedestrians walking around wih these masks on too...so, they seem very adverse to the possibility of catching something...anything(bird flu?).

Hence, my curiosity as to how they view vaccinations.

Vox, being a Japanese expert, I thought might have some insight.
Clay | 03.25.08 - 11:28 am | #

Yeah, but you're a lawyer, aren't ya, Mrs. P?
digitalcowboy | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 10:04 am | #

Hmm?

No, I was saying that your tale of terror makes me overwhelmingly grateful that we were directed to a ped who DOESN'T pull those kinds of stunts.

God is indeed good.
Mrs. Pilgrim | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 11:31 am | #

Mr. Day,

I didn't mean to say the kids were born with autism. I meant the kids became autistic as a result of the vaccinations.
Eddie | 03.25.08 - 10:32 am | #

I'm sorry, that was me. I thought I'd signposted it pretty well, but sometimes I'm clear only to myself...

It was pre-caffeine.
Mrs. Pilgrim | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 11:32 am | #

If a stranger approached your child on the street with a loaded hypodermic syringe, I would hope you would do anything to stop them.

Everybody in my children's doctors office is a stranger to me. I barely know the doctor's last name.

Back off with the needles, fuckers, or there's gonna be trouble.
Bane | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 12:01 pm | #

I think all children (and adults) should wear a bullet-proof vest. I don't want anybody that doesn't to be walking around on public streets, alleys, and blocks. It puts my family and my children in danger from raving-mad gunmen.
Chris Black | 03.25.08 - 12:30 pm | #

There are few, and I mean very few, people in our nation today who truly understand what freedom is all about. To most people, freedom means little more than getting to choose between an 8" long lawn and a 6" long lawn, or choosing to go to Fort Lauderdale for spring break instead of Daytona Beach. It's not surprising to read or hear McArdle bleat because she's an ignorant fool just like most modern Americans who think the person should serve the country rather than the country serving the person.

Hell, we live in a nation that thinks it's a good idea to force adults to wear seat belts in cars and wear helmets while on a motorcycle. Americans accept waiting in cattle lines to fly airlines that are essentially as vulnerable as they were before 9/11. Americans accept being pulled over on the road for no reason other than it being a DUI checkpoint.

Is it really any shock that people who claim to be for freedom chuck it all away whenever the collective is perceived to be facing even the most minor of risk?
Scintan | 03.25.08 - 12:38 pm | #

Chris, please use the politically correct vernacular, "in danger", should always be written: at risk. Doing so removes any possibility of argument. /s
Art | 03.25.08 - 12:38 pm | #

Lets expose young women to the risk of death for a non-lifethreatening disease.

This is just another example of an independent (i.e. claiming to be libertarian) woman appealing to an authority figure for protection.
AJW308 | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 12:44 pm | #

Scintan says .."There are few, and I mean very few, people in our nation today who truly understand what freedom is all about."

Well ... you started it ... explain yer'self --- .. what is freedom about ?
HH | 03.25.08 - 12:45 pm | #

When I was a kid, 1 out of 10,000, kids were autistic. Today it's 1 out of 156. Why aren't alarms going off?

Mandatory vaccinations are a cash cow for the pharmacutical companies. They develop a vaccine, lobby to get it required by law or the schools, then they've created a guaranteed market.

Serious diseases that can cripple or render the victim sterile like polio or mumps make sense for vaccines. Giving children a mercury laced cocktail of medicine doesn't make sense.
AJW308 | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 12:58 pm | #

AJW308 - Do you have a link to that info. Not being critical, I just like to have my ammo stocked up properly.
jimmyb | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 1:00 pm | #

"Scintan says .."There are few, and I mean very few, people in our nation today who truly understand what freedom is all about."

Well ... you started it ... explain yer'self --- .. what is freedom about ?
HH | 03.25.08 - 12:45 pm | # "


Since you asked, a few 'examples':

"A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned -- this is the sum of good government." - Thomas Jefferson

"It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it. " - George Washington

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
Scintan | 03.25.08 - 1:03 pm | #

Nevermind.
I found some of the info.

Pretty chilling...
jimmyb | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 1:07 pm | #

As a preface, what follows is a critique of McArdle's thinking skills and the love-affair with vaccinations and not the management/control of infectious disease. If someone contracts a contagious disease, i.e., active and infectious, I have no moral quandary with quarantining them or the healthy from the sick as I do with my own children. Apparently, it was good enough for God (and Europe) to isolate the diseased. The difference, however, is that McArdle wants all unvaccinated children (as opposed to actually infectious disease-carrying children) quarantined (which incurs economic and social sanctions) based on an unknown, or better, imagined risk. The question remains, too, what if a vaccinated child catches and spreads a disease? What then, Ms. McArdle?

McArdle: "...should not be allowed to use…"

This girl is bananas, b-a-n-a-n-a-s. Just another example of sacrificing critical thinking on the altar of the heart; emotional hogwash. And as with all the mommy-statists: "It's for the children."

And exactly how would this "libertarian" propose enforcing limited access? Maybe a patch of a yellow syringe crossed out by a red circle and line sewed onto those "sociopaths" clothing?

And if they can't use it should they pay for it?

McArdle: "...I imagine the person in my comments who contracted measles at 15 months from an unvaccinated child…"

And here I thought vaccines were incredibly effective or rather "...the vaccines work by denying diseases their most common reservoir (schoolchildren), not necessarily by giving everyone permanent immunity."

Funny thing is, the MMR vaccine is typically administered between 12 and 15 months. Was this poor 15-mo old unvaccinated or vaccinated? If not vaccinated, then using Ms. McArdle's Draconian measures, either the parents or the doctors should be charged with criminal medical neglect. If vaccinated, whence goes McArdle's support for vaccinations and condemnation for the unvaccinated?

Oh, and I imagine my friends whose perfectly healthy 6 month-old "just happened" to die within 24 hrs of receiving the, I believe, DTP, vaccination feel even less kindly than either of you.

VD: "But your health isn't at risk if you've been vaccinated, right?"

This is the same argument I raise when discussing vaccinations and yet never receive a reasonable answer**. Has anyone else had a similar experience?

Vox, what's interesting is the premise, as Pritcher explained, of socionomics, which suggests an increase in social restrictions during bear markets. With this and the latest attempts at hamstringing homeschooling, I wonder if we're witnessing its predictive value?

**Ridiculous argumentation like "temporary immunity" of ADULTS notwithstanding. In typical emotional fashion, McArdle used the "for the children" tactic to elevate the fear factor and then switched gears to include adults (> 18 yrs?), too. Trouble for her is those children she's "defending" to make her argument apparently should NOT be at risk.

And had she bothered to check, e.g., with the CDC, there are essentially three vaccination schedules: infant/toddler, adolescent/teen and adult. So, it would seem, that A) Those pro-vaccination parents who neglect to submit their 7+ y.o. children to booster shots should be criminally culpable of medical neglect and B) Any adult that gets sick as a result of their own negligence are responsible for any diseases they may contract as a result of that negligence. And maybe the doctors, too, who fail to force their patients to be vaccinated.

ASIDE: And who's this doppelganger "Paladin" from 03.24.08 - 3:25 pm. Ah well, the more knights the merrier!
Paladin | 03.25.08 - 1:59 pm | #

what if a vaccinated child catches and spreads a disease? What then, Ms. McArdle?

One of her "libertarian" commenters argued something along the lines of "it must be because someone near the child wasn't vaccinated"*

* Paraphrased, because I'm not about to wade through that latrine of lunacy again.

Oh, and I imagine my friends whose perfectly healthy 6 month-old "just happened" to die within 24 hrs of receiving the, I believe, DTP, vaccination feel even less kindly than either of you.

I developed a sever reaction to DTP as a toddler, so severe I was hospitalized for weeks and my parents were told the prognosis was not good.
Somehow I lived.
For some reason my idiot parents allowed my younger brother to undergo the same vaccine schedule I had done, and sure as shit, he developed a reaction to the DTP (though less severe).
My two youngest sisters went unvaccinated, and I'm fairly certain when I have kids we will not be among the bestest friends of the McArdle "Free Choice So Long As You Choose Correctly" Camp.
Huckleberry | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 2:58 pm | #

Vaccinate against polio and tetanus when the children are of walking age. But are you seriously worrying about a lethal chickenpox epidemic?
VD | 03.25.08 - 8:19 am | #

I'm not quite as big an idiot as everyone here seems to think. I'm actually more concerned with a smallpox epidemic. Before everyone here concludes I'm completely daft: Nobody has been vaccinated for it since something like '78. There is essentially NO herd immunity remaining in any population on earth. If you think smallpox is eradicated, think again. It almost certainly exists frozen in high level government labs. More than that, you can freely download its sequence on NCBI! This means that any crackpot in the world with a sufficiently equipped lab can conceivably cook it up, and that means any time in the future.
I'm completely for limiting medical procedures, limiting drug use, etc. I hate childhood circumcision -- hey now there's a topic. Where do you stand on that little Jewish ritual?


I looked up from what I was reading, and I noticed the Japanese camera crews, and many of the Japanese reporters were all wearing surgical masks.
...
so, they seem very adverse to the possibility of catching something...anything


I think you have it backward. The Japanese wear mask when they're sick so not to spread it. Now that's thinking communally. Somehow I doubt many Japanese are libertarian.
Beelzebub | 03.25.08 - 5:51 pm | #

Doctors(like govt)have a God complex. They expect to be obeyed, not questioned.
Father of 9 | 03.25.08 - 11:18 am | #

F9, don't try that argument with a Baldwin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L...h? v=LqeC3BPYTmE
El Derbo | 03.25.08 - 6:33 pm | #

There is a problem with so called "herd immunity". It is bull.

If vaccines worked as well as advertised, then why the big fuss over some who are not vaccinated?

The problem is that after some diseases are eradicated or limited out, and the herd stops getting vaccinated, it becomes very susceptable to that disease if it were ever introduced.

As Beelzebub said, a small pox outbreak would make the Black Plauge look like the common cold. What is scary, is that there are some natural strains still out there. Every once in a while, you hear of someone who had or has small pox. One of these days we WILL have an outbreak.
RedJack | 03.25.08 - 6:33 pm | #

To Paladin:

My apologies. In my, admittedly few, spot checks of the comments reading through the VP archives, I didn't spot the name beforehand, and as it happens to be a favorite of mine I decided to use it.

Now that I am aware of someone who likely has a prior claim on it, I've adjusted my own to avoid confusion.

"And lo, Paladin was joined by another. And there was much rejoicing."
Zion's Paladin | 03.25.08 - 6:54 pm | #

When I was a kid, 1 out of 10,000, kids were autistic. Today it's 1 out of 156. Why aren't alarms going off?
AJW308 | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 12:58 pm | #

I'm on your side, but there's an alternate explanation for the rise in autism.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ wp...6090400513.html

The stats don't explain the huge increase, but, I figure age itself might not be the sole factor. Overall health declines with age, so maybe a decline in the overall physical health of the whole community could be a factor.

My guess is that sperm quality is much worse now than it was when you were a kid.
Ian | 03.25.08 - 6:54 pm | #

BeelzBub,

It is indeed possible that some government or crackpot could unleash smallpox on us. But if they DID do such a thing, do you think for a moment that they would use the virus that everyone had the vaccine for? If it was so easy to just "cook up" a virus it probably would have been done, and certainly will be done in the future, but it won't be a form that we have resistance for. If a person of group is smart enough to create a virus I am sure they are smart enough to figure out how to modify it as well.
Erik | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 7:30 pm | #

It is funny, hearing ilk complain about a 'herd mentality', when they will gladly follow Ron Paul when the farmer hangs the bell around his neck. Moooo.

I am generally anti and suspicious of vaccines, and agree that they cluster them too close together, when the child is too young. But Polio scares the shit out of me. When I was a kid, we'd go peep through the windows of houses, and stare in awe and horror at the kids in the iron lungs. Or watch them lurch around at school on their crutches. Those that lived.

Now, with all of the filthy animals flooding across our borders, carrying and/or exhibiting symptoms of all sorts of diseases, I am more inclined to have me and mine take the needle.

And one way of looking at immunity for Big Pharma, is to realize what a litigious society we've allowed ourselves to become. Pharma does many things that are good. Heck, you don't stop eating KFC just because somebody found a fried rat in it, across the country somewhere.
Bane | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 7:33 pm | #

Don't get me wrong, vaccines aren't inherently bad. A limited and voluntary schedule of individual doses at a somewhat older age, spread out over time, is a perfectly reasonable program... in fact, that's how most adults over thirty today were vaccinated. But pumping infants full of toxins that have never been tested in combination with each other, 19 shots in the first six months, isn't just asking for trouble, it's demanding it.
-Vox Day (original post)
.
Vox's Secretary | 03.25.08 - 8:47 pm | #

Zion's Paladin, welcome to the Round Table.

Excelsior!
Paladin | 03.25.08 - 9:17 pm | #

Yes, it seems the refusal to vaccinate one's children is automatically deemed some sort of crime against humanity these days. Further influence of the collectivist mentality that dominates much of modern American "debate".

Those who do not wish to vaccinate understand the potential risks >to themselves< and should do as their conscience dictates. Those who wish to line up to be "immunized" like good little citizens should do so without the irrational fear that the unvaccinated will somehow miraculously infect them.

I don't see where the stigma comes in, personally. It's a matter of maintaining a bit of individual liberty in a land where it is increasingly scarce.
Hoss Varad | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 9:34 pm | #

There is a problem with so called "herd immunity". It is bull.

If vaccines worked as well as advertised, then why the big fuss over some who are not vaccinated?

Simply put RedJack, if you really look into it, no reputable organization that I know of actually claims they are 100% effective. They quite simply are not and everyone knows it---except of course the people who only ever hear the "safe and effective" mantra and assume they are always safe and always effective.
JRL | 03.25.08 - 10:16 pm | #

Heck, you don't stop eating KFC just because somebody found a fried rat in it, across the country somewhere.

That's because it's the special ingredient that adds their special little pizazz to the food.
Wes | Homepage | 03.25.08 - 11:00 pm | #

somebody found a fried rat in it, across the country somewhere.

Gross out man. Everyone knows rat bits should be mechanically separated and stir-fried.
JRL | 03.25.08 - 11:43 pm | #

With more thought I more or less agree. The Malkin article makes a lot of sense. I think the problem stems from the med establishment thinking children are going to fall through the cracks and then litigation is going to track back to them, which is a really crappy reason to shoot infants full of stuff.

I've had enough animals that develop odd disorders after parasite shots and vaccinations to look on them with heavy skepticism. I one had a dog that I'm quite sure was given epileptic-like seizures due to a lyme disease vaccination.

I remember how my dentist reacted when I told him I didn't want X-rays anymore. First he had me sign a waver, about a year later he told me to take a hike. Dental X-rays are WAY overused.
Beelzebub | 03.26.08 - 4:50 am | #

Beelzebub,

On the xray front, there is a new technology that is available that tremendously cuts the radiation received. Its Digital Imaging. Still uses the xray machine but uses only about 1/10 of the radiation to get the same picture. It makes the equipment last longer and uses less energy and puts everyone at less risk.

But it cost them 5,000 for just the piece that goes in the mouth. Hopefully more and more places start to use it tho. The technology pays for itself over time and there is less chance of lawsuits.
Erik | Homepage | 03.26.08 - 7:05 am | #

The non-libertarian non-Artist Formerly Known As Jane Galt needs to go somewhere where her viewpoints might improve matters. Zimbabwe, maybe.
Jeffrey Quick | 03.26.08 - 7:03 pm | #

McArdle's claim to be a libertarian is as ludicrous as Bill Maher's

Bill Maher is a libertarian? I did not know that. I mean, I know he wouldn't claim to be one if it weren't so. I guess it also must follow that libertarians are not slaves of the Right. Necessarily.
duckman | Homepage | 03.26.08 - 7:53 pm | #

Are you all really this simplistic and wrong? it seems the anti-vaccination arguments fall into some groups...
1. vaccinations lead to autism. This is utter crap.
2. vaccinations have thimerasol, which leads to autism. This is utter crap, also.
3. kids get 'too many vaccines too young'. utter crap as well. The immune system is able to adapt to a lot of things at once, a few vaccines won't hurt
3. vaccines aren't perfect. people that are vaccinated still get sick. Well, people that wear seatbelts still die sometimes, but they, in the end, save lives.
4. you are all taking your quasi-medical 'science' and experimenting on your kids by denying them the protection of vaccination. You are also putting children that cannot be vaccinated (due to allergy or immune issues) at risk for preventable diseases.
5. The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'. Just because you are foolish enough not to vaccinate your kids and they happen not to die from a preventable disease doesn't mean you made the right choice. It just means God protects fools and their children sometimes.

Myk
Myk | 03.29.08 - 1:40 am | #

" I think parents who leave their children unvaccinated are the moral equivalent of people who drive drunk."

She's wrong. Parents who don't vaccinate their children are the moral equivalent of parents who don't put their children in car seats.
Shay | Homepage | 03.29.08 - 6:22 pm | #

She's wrong. Parents who don't vaccinate their children are the moral equivalent of parents who don't put their children in car seats.
Shay

I was vaccinated (at about the age of seven), and I never rode in a car seat. What does that say about my parents? (I'm also 51 years old.)
duckman | Homepage | 03.30.08 - 6:59 pm | #