Isn't it amazing that because these people die quietly and separately we don't react the same way as if it were from a pandemic? Just imagine the difference if this amount of people died from a flu strain. Or an explosion from a terrorist.
I'm glad he's doing this and I really hope that people start waking up from their nationalist coma to see the horrors in this country that could be easily stopped. No need to hunt in caves for maniacs. All we have to do to save thousands of lives each year is to pass health care coverage for everyone.
Kay if you and I had Britain's healthcare all our lives, with the health issues we've had I'm sure we would have both been dead by now! I don't believe that Obama's plan is supposed to be anything like Britain's so before you get irritated at me I'm not trying to compare the two! But seriously it is not good here.
The general impression I have here is that it's been survival of the fittest. They don't keep the weak & sickly alive and they do not do preventative health testing. They never would have caught my pulminary embolism. The doctors here don't even bother taking your temperature or blood pressure - they sit behind a desk and ask questions, more like a psychiatrist than a doctor's office.
I thought the military's health care was bad, but this is almost unbelievable.
Everyone here has health coverage, but if the health coverage is terrible, what good is it really?
I love everything else about living in England. but I am honestly frightened by the level of healthcare here. I just hope and pray we both stay healthy.
They don't keep the weak and sickly alive in the UK? Stephen Hawking would beg to differ with you.
One should be careful in citing differences that may be cultural as signs of inferiority. Honestly, has taking your temperature during a routine check up ever contributed anything to your overall wellbeing? Doubt it. But maybe if the British spent the kind of GDP on healthcare that we do they could buy some more thermometers and blood pressure cuffs.
My wife is half English and has relatives there, in fact my Mother-In-Law is there now and she always says how much better their system is when she visits as she is still eligible. And I've never heard her relative complain about the NHS. In fact only 14% of Britons would like to see the system scrapped: http://
healthfieldmedicare.suite...th_care_systems
Meanwhile here in the US 43 millions Americans have no cverage, 50% of all bankruptcies are due to medical expenses and 75% percent of those bankruptcies are people that HAVE insurance. None of those things are true in the UK. I bet they don't have 44,000 people a year dying for lack of coverage either.
Their system isn't perfect of course, but their life expectancy is higher than ours and their infant mortality rate (ours is a national disgrace) is lower. Call me an optimist, but I think we could take a system like the British and make great improvements on it. Especially since we spend almost THREE TIMES as much per person on healthcare that they do!
Anyway our current system is neither desirable nor sustainable, but that probabaly won't change much considering the whittlin round the margins that's likely to pass for "reform" in this country.
Sean, in all fairness most Britains have nothing to compare their system to, this is all they know. And if they are healthy, there's probably not much to complain about.
All I can tell you are my personal experiences to date, which have been appalling.
The differences are not simply cultural unfortunately. When I mentioned my temperature, I had gone to the doctor because I was ill with a fever for over a week. It wasn't a routine appointment. I also had other symptoms I'd rather not get into detail on a blog.
Doctor told me I had hayfever because I was new to England. (I knew I didn't.) After another 2 weeks of being sick and feverish, I went back again. This time the doctor said, "well I guess you were right, you didn't have hayfever after all" and finally prescribed antibiotics.
The doctor never left his desk on either visit. And no, there are not any nurses at the doctor clinics either. It's just you and the doctor, nobody else.
It's also time for annual tests for me and guess what...they don't do preventative tests like mammograms, etc. They say statistically it does not prolong life to be tested when there are no symptoms.
My husband has high cholestrol and is on medication yet from the states. He made an appt to have his cholestrol checked and was told they were not able to have it checked until he started showing symptoms of high cholestrol. He was told America does too much testing. That might be true for some things I guess, but not cholestrol checks.
But just what are the symptoms of high cholesterol? Having a stroke? His father died young and my sister had breast cancer at my age.
I am really worried about this.
I find it extremely hard to believe anyone could compare the two who has experienced both and truly believe the quality is better here. Mother-in-law must have had some pretty lousy service in the states, or had an exceptionally good doctor over here who actually got out from behind his desk.
I can't switch doctors either, that's not an option. You have to take the one nearest your home address.
On top of NHS, we also have a private insurance that my husband gets through his company at additional cost. His company strongly recommended it because they said if you do have something serious, private insurance will speed up the waitlist because it is very long.
I'm assuming that those that can afford the private insurance help increase the wait list for those that can't afford it, which isn't good either.
The waitlist isn't just for non-life threatening illnesses, it's for everything. Many people die before their time comes up for surgery or cancer treatment, etc.
The cost of NHS comes directly out of your paycheck as a separate line item and is based on income. Ours is costing roughly between $700 - $800 per month, plus another $150 for private insurance. That's an awful lot of money for substandard health care.
If anyone wants to come visi
Seriously? My post was too long that it cut off!!
I was saying, if anyone wants to come and visit me in England and tag along to a doctor appointment they are welcome, and afterwards we can go to the pub next to my house talk to the guys about their hospital experiences. It's interesting stuff. (Kay?? You'd have a blast talking politics with these Englishmen!)
I've read that Obama's healthplan is not going to be a duplicate of NHS so I'm not actually trying to bash Obama's plan. Obviously changes need to be made in the USA. Hopefully they can look at other countries and learn from them, what works and what doesn't.
In all fairness most Americans have nothing to compare their system to, this is all they know. And if they are healthy, there's probably not much to complain about.
I don't doubt your personal experience, but one should be careful extrapolating that too generally. As I understand it there's much discussion of the value of mammograms and other tests as well here in the states also.
My Mother-In-Law worked in an Emergency Romm and as an EMT fpor years, she's pretty medically savvy. One of the things she appreciates about the British system is that if you need your prescription grugs you just go get them, their cheap and you don't have to through the annual ritual private insurance bureaucratic debacle of Medicare Part D like here.
So you're paying roughly $900 a month. My coverage is more like $1,300/mo and that's with a $5000 deductible, copays and the constant uncertainty that my employment will continue to make this coverage available for my family and that the insurance company will actually cover me or a loved one should a serious illness or injury occur.
Yes there are waiting lines over there, but you're in line. Over here if haven't got insurance you're just SOL, no lines no waiting. But again, since we're spending almost three times per person what the Brits do on Healthcare, I think we could solve that problem AND save money.
Unfortunately, it seems likely that while some small improvements may come out of the Dems reform (portability and no pre-existing conditions) the health insurance profiteers will not only retain but expand their license to skim 30% of all healthcare dollars off the top while delivering ZERO medical treatments, procedures or medications.
Anyway all this talk of britain has got me in the mood to toss a good game of darts and down a pint or three.
C'mon over. We have an extra bedroom. They have dart night at the pub down the street and literally it's a minute walk from the house.
Well I'm sticking to my Survival of the Fittest theory. Without preventative testing & annual checkups, hands on checking by doctors when ill, I believe the British are healthy in spite of their health care, not because of it! Of course I hope I get to prove myself wrong on that one because I definitely do not come from a "fit" gene pool.
I was talking for hours with a retired NHS doctor the other night, and he confirmed preventative testing was not done (wasn't just my particular doctor), but that the NHS is talking about considering it in the future, possibly. So they realize they are wrong!
The prescriptions, btw no matter what they are, cost 7 pounds each, which is around $11. Obviously they got that part right.
One thing I DO like is that you can buy many things at the drug store without a prescription that we would normally need prescriptions for in the USA.
We've been meaning to. With relatives in Skegness (east coast) and Oswestry (sp?) near Wales, getting there and back is the main expense. We were there in the early 90's. Loved the pubs and the Workingman's Club where the pool game rules are changed monthly and the fact that you can walk there. I thought it was interesting how they close the pubs for dinner time so people go home and eat with the family, then they reopen. My favorite dart game, Cricket was called Mickey Mouse by the locals and the cheers and songs at the soccer game put our football counterparts to total shame. Bubble and squeek is alright, but I'll pass on the blood pudding.
44,000? Really?
http://www.americanthinker.com/
2...hs_just_mo.html
Guess not.
Skegness is about a 3 1/2 hour drive from where I live, which is just west of London. Oh yeah I agree about the black pudding! Funny you should mention Bubble & Squeak because I plan to make it for dinner tomorrow night. I've got my mashed potatoes and cabbage ready to go.
Not sure about Wales but these days the pubs in England are open for dinner and are the best places to eat. Most pubs are frequented by the locals who live around it, so it's really friendly and a great atmosphere (and great food).
If the pub on our block gets boring we have 3 more within a minute or two walk AND we get to bring our dog in - it's really great. England is just as modern as the USA, but there are certain things about it that seem really old fashioned and simple, I like it a lot.
I did discover that all the elected officials in our town are conservative, however the conservatives here aren't nearly as irritating as the American conservatives LOL. Even the most conservative are actually pretty liberal by American standards, so it's not so bad.
Ah Nemo back for another rhetorical ass kicking eh? I must say, you got totally propagandized dude.
1) The article you linked intentionally (one can only assume) left out that the study was done by Harvard University Medical School. Why? Of course because of the credibility that institution lends to the study (contrasting of course in comparison to the "credibility" of the hyper partisan "American Thinker" whoever the hell they are).
2) The author of your article William Tate questions the credibility of the study based on several points. The first being that it was funded by federal dollars. Lot's of studies and research are. It's bad reason to question it and the author provides no reason why the funding source should be a factor. His audience (that's you Nemo) is just supposed to blindly nod their heads and accept this con artical of faith
3) Mr. Tate claims the study was distributed by "Physicians for a National Health Program, a fringe, pro single-payer group" His words) when in fact it was published by the American Journal of Public Health. The fact that some other group may have linked or publicized the release has no bearing on the issue and is just an lame attempt by the author to mislead his audience (that's you Nemo).
4) Mr. Tate correctly notes that the study results are an estimate (duh!), that extrapolation (a statistical technique) was used and that there are caveats in the discussion of the data and the techniques of analysis. These are all hallmarks of a properly conducted study. Yet the author uses them to attempt to mislead the uninformed (that's you Nemo) regarding the quality of the study without providing any evidence that the above methods were used inappropriately.
5) And finally and most agregiously the propagandist makes a complete twist of the truth by blaming Medicare for deaths of 92,000 people due to medical errors and then impuning the Dems for not screaming real loud. This is a completely dishonest tactic by author utterly shattering any shred of credibility he may have had up to that point.
Nemo, you see medicare does not provide medical treatment, it pays for it. Therefore, logically speaking it cannot make medical mistakes. These mistakes are made medical facilities across our land and it's been well publicized as something that needs fixing for all Americans, not just medicare recipients. Yet when something to address this problem is put into the health reform bills (by dems) namely promoting the switch to computerizing medical directives and record keeping teabaggin whackos like you screamed OMG big brother!
And you Nemo swallowed this twisted line of pure GOPropaganda (which took me only moments to unravel through the application of critical thinking) unquestioningly, hook, line and sinker. Proving once again that you're a fool. Now run along and peddle your fool papers somewhere else.
Hmmmm, let me see if I understand sean's points. One through 3 seem to imply that the source of a study should not be taken into account by a critical thinker. But sean, wasn't it you that has on occasion bashed anti-AGW studies because they were funded by "Big Oil". (This, dear readers, is what is known in logic as a contradiction.)
It's funny that 4 was not used in the banner of your post as in "Extrapolation was used and that there are caveats in the discussion of the data and the techniques of analysis that comes to the conclusion that 44,000 die." I guess that there is more to this than a bumper sticker post.
As for 5, doesn't your response kind of kill your entire argument as in, "sean, you see health insurance does not provide medical treatment, it pays for it. " (This dear reader, is known as "hoist by your own petard." It's never fun when it happens to you, but it's always fun to watch when it happens to sean.)
I'm a little disappointed sean. Normally you present a much stronger debate. What's the matter? Yesterday's election got you down? (heh, heh, heh)
Nemo wrote; "Hmmmm, let me see if I understand sean's points. One through 3 seem to imply that the source of a study should not be taken into account by a critical thinker."
No Nemo point #1 is that the source SHOULD be considered for it's credibility and that propagandist omitted the fact that the very credible Harvard University Medical School conducted the study while misdirecting attention to federal funding and a physicians group.
Honestly Nemo I can't fathom at all what you're trying to get at with your second paragraph.
In your third paragraph you said; "As for 5, doesn't your response kind of kill your entire argument as in, "sean, you see health insurance does not provide medical treatment, it pays for it." Well Nemo I wasn't claiming, as your author was with regard to medicare, that private insurance causes fatal medical mistakes. So the logic of your point is baffling at best.
Anyway it's patently obvious that private insurance DOES NOT pay for medical treatment if you don't have insurance and THAT, since you apparently missed it, was the whole point to begin with! Of course if it's only 27,000 people per year then why worry right?
You need to work on reading comprehension and then the logic and clarity of your arguments. Of course those will get you only so far when you rely on GOPropagandists to lead you by the nose with twisted facts.
My sister had a dog named Nemo. Poor thing had to be put down because she didn't have the money for his operation.
My daughter had a guppy named Nemo. Poor thing had to be flushed after she found him belly up.
I hope Nemo works out better for this uninformed chap than it did for the pets.
Jayman
sean, are you seriously implying that groups with a vested interest in the outcome of a study they're funding don't ever influence that study?
Further on source reliability...
Harvard University Medical School when developing or evaluating a medical procedure : credible.
Harvard University Medical School when developing or evaluating public policy to run one sixth of the US economy : not so much.
I worry more about the reality based problems with government controlled health care solutions...
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/
saskatc...ncer040319.html
than with dubious conjectures that have yet to produce ONE name.
Wow, you are battin zero today Nemi.
I would never imply that groups with a vested interest in the outcome of a study they're funding don't ever influence that study. In fact you've already provided an example where I did, so you're just being silly now. It's just that I don't consider a federal research grant to be a "group"or to have a "vested interest.
Furthermore, I'm relying on the high profile and distinguished status of Harvard University who knows that their study will be subjected to peer review (as opposed to the blatantly non-credible hatchet job of Mr. Tate) and so they will make certain to do quality defensible work to protect their professional reputations and the reputation of their institution.
That's how things work in the reality-based world over here. I understand that's not the case in your GOP global war on reality alternative universe over there on the fringe.
You say that you don't worry about dubious conjectures that have yet to produce ONE name? Obviously you didn't even looked at the website before you started running off at the keyboard http://www.namesofthedead.com/fu...om/
fulllist.php
Typical. Now go away kid, ya bother me.
sandra, figures you would post while I was away from my blog! tee
so, I watched this program on PBS and it showed a doctor in England that was driving some insanely expensive car and he said he could afford it because he was paid by incentives. Like if he got his patients blood pressure down, cholesterol lowered, got them to quit smoking, etc he got paid a preventative care bonus.
I will have to go look up what the name of the program was, but it seems to me that is the kind of incentive program that would work quite well.
Why the doctor's you see aren't following his track is beyond me.
meanwhile........if I could dig up the money for plane fair I would be at your doorstep in a heartbeat! be glad I can't because you might have a hard time getting rid of me with all those pubs so near!
And, you took your dog with you? Is she attacking the British postal service too now? LOL
Guilty. It's true, I did not visit the site until your last post. After looking are the Harvard report and noting the extrapolation and many caveats it struck me as nothing more than propaganda. I assumed, correctly, that anything build on that was not worth my time. I've since read about 10 of the stories and they all strike me the same way: Each is more of a failure of personal responsibility than the fault of the current health care system.
I'll save the hedonically relevant attitude of the feds for another thread.
On a side note, bless you for calling me a "kid". If we ever meet, I'm buying you a beer for that one.
Propaganda? Oh, please. Coming from you that's almost worth laughing at if it weren't for all the deaths each day from the expertise propaganda we're force fed via the established insurance scamdustry.
Yeah right, people sharingthe stories and the pain of losing their loved ones are engaged in propaganda.
Read some of the stories, it's heartbreaking. Is "personal responsibility" or the lack thereof involved in some of these stories? Of course. Is it the sole cause of many of these tragedies? Of course not. Would personal responsibility have prevented these tragedies? NO. You'd have to be stupid or blind to believe that (or just not care).
This from a guy who passes along a story by a liar who has the gall to try and claim that Medicare is making errors in treatment leading to deaths when obviously Medicare does not even perform medical precedures.
If someone tried to deceive me with such blatant BS I'd be insulted and pissed off at the source of the crap being hurled my way. Yet the cons keep going back to the same polluted troughs to imbibe their favorite infoxicants.
18,000 dead, 27,000 dead, 45,000 dead, or whatever. The GOPticons only answer is the lame old "personal responsibilty" ploy. And that's nothing but a dodge and a blame the victim game because what's really going on is that they just don't fucking care (until it's them). Nice.
Sandra, Happy Guy Fawkes Day!
Thank you Sean - everyone was out late celebrating with bonfires and fireworks. Next year Frank and I will definitely go celebrate too, I didn't realize what a big deal it was till last night.
Kay yes we brought our dog (and the Bengal cats from Hell too) would be attacking the British postal workers but they have been on strike all the time lately.
I really think you'd like it here if you can make it. You might not want to ever go back, well at least until your first doctor visit, then you might change your mind LOL.
I'd think if the doctors could actually make more money by taking blood pressure, etc they'd be doing it? I have to make a doctor appointment, (I've been putting it off because I know it's going to be a big waste of time), but when I see him next I'll ask about it. I'm not sure there are even examining tables in the doctor clinic I go to, I haven't seen one yet.
This isn't the article I was looking for, but it's still an interesting one. What I find more educational than the article itself are the comments. There are always some pros and cons to every story - if you take a look make sure you click on "view all" comments. It's the best way to get a feel of what's happening.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/...tion-
young.html
Oh, Sandra, a very touchy subject for me. And, to be honest, I have very mixed feelings about to what lengths medicine should go to prolong life under certain situations.
I blame the doctors. I have had doctors who were total morons and I have doctors who can get me any treatment and get it paid. I had the same experience with my mom when I took over her care. My best friend just lost her mom and she found the same to be true.
I think systemic failure is too easy a target because it's so vague and faceless. Much harder to point to a particular doctor and speak up and say "Hey, you're not any good at what you do."
Personally, I think it's a combination of things
Systems (ours - the US - fails quite often.)
There are doctors out there that should be vets - which is why I want to retain the right to sue them.
And, there are insurance industries that really would rather have you die before you become too costly.
Last, but not least, we have developed this mentality that we should be grateful for what we get or are too busy with personal lives to go out and do anything about things.......look how hard it was to recruit to the party or for campaign! I think people became too overwhelmed with personal life stuff and got distracted from fighting for the best solutions.
One big distraction has always been war. That and the economy and petty stuff.....like which street should get the flower boxes.
I hope you get all the proper care you need. And, you should really look around at options for where to go. A medical office w/o exam tables? Christ, you're not in some remote village in South America.
Sandra, check this out:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/
fr...wonderdrug.html
Write back your thoughts as it relates to NHS and I'll post it as an article.
Sorry Kay I wasn't even thinking of what you just went through.
I mainly posted this because of the 60+ comments written afterwards. It gives a much better feel for things to hear comments from people living with the sytem. There are comments both for and against, but they are interesting.
I can't change doctors by the way, you have to use the doctor nearest your address. I doubt there's a big difference between them anyway even if I could.
This is the article I was looking for - really interesting. Also followed by many comments.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debat...bly-
flawed.html
I'll take a look at your article - I need a cup of coffee first!
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