After all, the 600,000 number was not just casually mentioned. It was included as part of a census! In fact, two censuses. Noah's 40 days or Adam's 930 years might be methaphorical numbers, but the whole purpose of a census is to get an accurate count. That's the last place that one would expect to find imprecise numbers.
Bruce | Homepage | 07.16.08 - 1:17 am | #

Or, when Moses tells Moav that they will only walk through the highway and not go in either direction. For a population to fit on one road like that, I believe someone made an approximate equation that the line would stretch to about 400 miles long
Holy Hyrax | Homepage | 07.16.08 - 1:33 am | #

hey,
I have a curiousity here. Could someone explain why panentheism (the belief that "one mountain, many paths" re: Hashem and humanity) is so wrong by Judaism? I mean, I thought it stresses the Covenant is for the Jews ? How do normal Jews read the stretch in Shakharit about "we are...your firstborn congregation" just before the first time we say the couplet starting "Sh'ma Yisrael..."? (to me that sounds like a backhanded admission "well, we're not the ONLY congregation of Hashem, just the _First_ one") Because I am having problems understanding your point (throughout all your posts recently, indirectly or directly) that some arguments can give some validity to religion in general but not to Judaism. (and I suppose if you were Christian skeptic, you could say the same argument about Christianity or so on and so on and thus while religion as a whole can be defended, no religion that claims to be exclusivist can be.) Yet if the setup is panentheist and this is intentional...well, what if you need cultures that "concentrate" on various traits ? to get the "raw material" to build Olam Ha Ba out of ? what in Jewish theology (or your skepticism) makes that such an alarming prospect. You say Hashem should just say straight out what to do...but what about the lessons you have to learn for yourself? Like for me, I see many times in my life where the lesson i got from a situation was not the one I expected; even situations where people tried to teach me something and I couldn't absorb it until _indirectly_ events surprised me. If thus with a person, why not with a society or species?

If I'm following correctly, one of your big complaints is that since OJ orders immoral or stupid things (however relatively infreqently), it cannot be allowed to persist in these behaviours if it cannot PROVE we need to do this "because Hashem said so". However, what about the point that sometimes we're told to do something wrong until we learn _for ourselves_ that it is wrong? Look at the water torture for adultresses. They stopped it even while the Temple still existed. Why did we get such a rule? Why was it valid to stop it ? Ultimately,because _learning by doing_ made the Jews decide this was bad. However they twisted the theology (I believe the line was "well, everyone's so given to adultry, no one really believes the ordeal proves anything any longer so its a pointless risk of life since it no longer reconciles husbands and wives"? Am I wrong?) the point is there was no prophet who ordered this. The humans on the spot just quietly decided they weren't going to do it that way anymore. AFAIK, they didn't say they'd been wrong to do it that far...but all the same, that makes their stopping the more remarkable. And now that things have gone on that far, we look at that whole episode and go "no. Adultry IS serious, but it is NOT worth someone's life to try and deter it or smooth over the aftershocks of gossip about it." That may seem a pretty obvious lesson. It wasn't to them. Now it is. May we learn many more. one of the tranlsations of the word Torah is "Instruction", right ? Yet if I'm not mistaken, you're going to look at this and dismiss it as apologetics or intellectual dishonesty. I'm curious why. I mean as far as I can tell, thinking like that, I'm never going to be allowed to be Orthodox. Ok. fine by me if it comes to that. the PURPOSE of the divine is more important to me than the vehicle. still going to try and learn from what the OJ were studying. if they got stuff right, I need to know _even more_ than what they got wrong. I can't change their minds, I can change mine.
Kendra | 07.16.08 - 3:34 am | #

A talmid of Rav Dessler seemed to have no problem with saying the numbers were symbolic:
http://www.judaic.org/bible/bemi...e/ bemidbar2.pdf
How you answer your kashyes on this shitta is another matter, but it definately doesn't blow OJ out of the water.
J. | 07.16.08 - 8:41 am | #

"A talmid of Rav Dessler seemed to have no problem with saying the numbers were symbolic:
"

Sure, everything is alegorical and symbolic. Except that the 39 melachos, kashrus, gittin and the myriad other laws and strictures are very precise and encumbering. Make sure to tie you shoelaces in the proper order and don't pass you wife something during the wrong time of the month.

Something so alegorical-producing something so rigid is the work of thousands or years of fundametalism, extended presently by healthy doses of community enforced ignorance and self delusion. It is just so obvioius to almost anyone who is willing to think and educate themselves.
yodeah | 07.16.08 - 8:59 am | #

It's a shame Rav Soleveitchik (or even Louis Jacobs for that matter) was uneducated and wasn't able to think. kol haposel...
J. | 07.16.08 - 9:11 am | #

Agav, your point is incoherent me'ikoro. Jurispudence may debate the philosophical basis behind the concept of law, but that doesn't stop laws having very defined boundaries-how else should a legal system work?
J. | 07.16.08 - 9:15 am | #

I think the 2 million number is a lot more funny when put in the context of the tenach's outrageous number stretching:
http://www.theskepticalreview.co...mag/ 1num95.html
S.O.S. | 07.16.08 - 9:24 am | #

> A talmid of Rav Dessler seemed to have no problem with saying the numbers were symbolic:

Yeah. He says:

"When asked about the above, Rabbi S.D. Sassoon stated that the numbers of the census, as many other numbers in the Torah, should be understood as
symbolic."

Numbers, stories, events, all symbolic.
XGH | 07.16.08 - 9:25 am | #

>>> That's the last place that one would expect to find imprecise numbers.

the numbers cannot be precise. it is a near statistical impossibility to have 24 (2 censuses) random counts of of a group with a 0 for all 24 in the units column and only a few non-zeroes in the tens column.
david a. | 07.16.08 - 9:54 am | #

I banned 2 commenters from this (and future) threads:

1. Deganev: I don't mind that he's contrarian. I don't even mind that he's davkah contrarian. However I do mind that he took 2 hours and hundreds of comments yesterday to explain himself. Either he did it deliberately, in which case he's banned, or else he simply can't explain himself, in which case he's banned.

2. Jacob Stein: Too much pritzus.
XGH | 07.16.08 - 9:56 am | #

I banned 2 commenters from this (and future) threads

Don't do that. Banning is for people like Hirhurim.
JewishAtheist | Homepage | 07.16.08 - 10:10 am | #

Depends why you ban someone-if they are banned for behaving like a idiot and not contributing to the debate then there's nothing wrong with it.
J. | 07.16.08 - 10:14 am | #

how about this thought.

in parshat b'chukosai, Hashem promises that if BY follow in the proper path 5 soldiers can pursue 20 of the enemy (and 100 can pursue 10,000) giving a ratio of either 1:20 or 1:100.

so, the census of 600,000 able-bodied men might mean that based on Hashem's promise and even if we are really only 6000 ( or 30,000) but we have the might of 600,000
david a. | 07.16.08 - 10:19 am | #

> Don't do that. Banning is for people like Hirhurim.

I don't ban ideas. I ban people who can't explain their ideas and waste everyone's time. Also I ban crazy people.
XGH | 07.16.08 - 10:20 am | #

that should be 5 can pursue 100.
david a. | 07.16.08 - 10:23 am | #

XGH, you say "sex" and "sexy" and "sexual" sometimes. You do.
Friends of Jacob | Homepage | 07.16.08 - 10:34 am | #

You are confusing me with Rabbi Jeremy Weider.
XGH | 07.16.08 - 10:49 am | #

LOL.
Reader | 07.16.08 - 10:57 am | #

Regarding banning,

Blog's are private domains. The blog owner can ban whoever the hell he wants.

There is also a WORLD of difference between Gil banning and deleting polite comments that are on topic, comments that are sincere, honest, and questioning,

And banning comments or commentators that talk about sex more then porn stars, or spout nonsense like water from the rock that Moses our teacher struck!
Freethinking Upstart | Homepage | 07.16.08 - 11:03 am | #

xgh, problem with numbers is even worse than you imagine. Add mixed multitude size of which is debated in mechilta 14:84 - 1st opinion 1200000; 2nd 2400000, 3rd 3600000. Targum yonasan on shmos 12:38 says 2400000. Targum yonasan on verse 12:37 also says there were 5 kids per adult man. Add also that only one fifth of jews went out. What rabbi gotlieb says that sinai desert is very large is not relevant. We do not need to look for them in there. Jews camped near jericho and gilgal for long time also. The area around these places is much smaller. Also israel is called smallest of the nations. Meaning seven nations in canaan were more populated. So total population in canaan was around fifty million at least. Keep in mind that probably each family had its own camp fire. I am talking after mann stopped also. It is very hard to miss charcoal remains from a million fires. I am not even talking about animal bones and they did have many herds.
dovid komarov | 07.16.08 - 11:17 am | #

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U...h?v=U5GY0tD- k4A
Friends of Jacob | Homepage | 07.16.08 - 11:25 am | #

Surely the idea that the offspring of 70 people could reach 2 million people in a couple of centuries is just as far fetched.
Has anyone calculated the population growth rate required and how does it compare to the highest rates found today in the world?
DowJones | 07.16.08 - 11:25 am | #

There's no question it's all far fetched. But extreme population growth could be a 'miracle' I suppose. IF everyone had 5-10 kids (technically possible) with limited disease you could easily grow from 70 to 2 million in 200 years. However, results from miracles which mysteriously leave no evidence are too suspect.
XGH | 07.16.08 - 11:30 am | #

So to get started from 70 to 2M, must have either been intermarriage or a lot of inbreeding?
e-kvetcher | Homepage | 07.16.08 - 11:37 am | #

To be fair, some of these issues aren't as big as they seem. Chazal claim that their clothes never wore out, and that they never had to use the loo, the man being absorbed in their bodies. This was written well before archaeological issues were relevant to think about, so there is less suspect of pure apologetics (mythology on the other hand....)

Nonetheless, unless you want to be a conspiracy theorist and say that there is a massive coverup by Arab countries to prevent people from performing better digs, some evidence, meaning major and relatively clear cut, should have showed up.

The population of Israel, btw, circa 12,000 BCE, was only about 100,000.....
Bertram | Homepage | 07.16.08 - 11:38 am | #

Awww, I'll miss Jacob.
David | 07.16.08 - 11:38 am | #

friends of jacob. I meant when one does archeological digging it is hard to miss such enormous amount of burned wood, and if you dig in manhattan as much as they dug in israel you will find plenty.
dovid komarov | 07.16.08 - 11:39 am | #

> Chazal claim that their clothes never wore out, and that they never had to use the loo, the man being absorbed in their bodies.

Did the animals eat manna? Did the animals never die? They had a lot of flocks and herds.

> This was written well before archaeological issues were relevant to think about, so there is less suspect of pure apologetics

I disagree. Even back then the idea of the survival of a large nation in the desert must have seemed very unlikely, since they would have been familiar with desert living and what that entails, hence the need for miracles.
XGH | 07.16.08 - 11:43 am | #

bertam thats why i spoke about a period after mann already stored falling to avoid those statements of chazal.
dovid komarov | 07.16.08 - 11:45 am | #

Some of these issues are not AS BIG as they seem. There is LESS suspect of pure apologetics. Neither of XGH's points mitigate the fact that, though there are still BIG ISSUES, they aren't AS BIG. As well, XGH doesn't mitigate the point that there is LESS of a reason to suspect that Chazal made it up for apologetics purposes (than if someone had made up similar responses 5 years ago)
XGH, to be clear, in no way shape or form do I deny that there are issues, and major ones at that. It simply isn't as harsh as you originally stated it.

David- I was referring to original post.
Bertram | Homepage | 07.16.08 - 11:59 am | #

Btw, XGH, your second comment is an approximation of what I meant by '(mythology on the other hand....)'
Bertram | Homepage | 07.16.08 - 12:01 pm | #

Add mixed multitude size of which is debated in mechilta 14:84 - 1st opinion 1200000; 2nd 2400000, 3rd 3600000. Targum yonasan on shmos 12:38 says 2400000.

The original biblical question stands, but the Mechilta & Targum Yonatan don't pose much of a problem. No one claims they're the word of God.
DYS | Homepage | 07.16.08 - 1:26 pm | #

Traditional Jewish faith definitely requires the discarding of Occam's razor.
DYS | Homepage | 07.16.08 - 1:34 pm | #

DYS -

Nobody claims that the words of mechilta, etc. are the words of God, but it sure doesn't look good for Da'as Zekeinim.

It's one thing for Chazal to be wrong on scientific matters. But opinions ont he size of the eruv rav are not in the same category. Maybe you can make a teirutz that they were not talking about absolute numbers, but about size relative to the 600k of BY.

I think it's clear that whether we're talking about ages or populations, there's some kind of underlying meaning that we don't have the keys to in those numbers.
rejewvenator | Homepage | 07.16.08 - 4:57 pm | #

Some of my random thoughts after reading this post.

2 million bothers you? What about 600,000? That never bothered you? Thats' a lot of people too. The answer is that those were miraculous times. Nature did not operate in normal ways for the Israelites.

Had the Exodus story been written by a later time as bible critics suggest, how could it have possibly be sold to an entire nation if it weren't true? No one would believe it then any more than they would believe it now.

The lack of evidence doesn't bother me any more than the the Manna from heaven does... or any of the ten plagues... or getting water out of rocks in the dessert... or the Korach story ...or the Ballam story.


Either you are a believer or you're not. I am a believer. And yes the devil is in the details, but there are too many questions that all add up to an answer that the entire incidnet ocurred uner miraculous conditions provided by God. Once you accept that, you cannot question it. How can anyone question a miracle which by definition breaks the plane of nature? 2 mil traversing the desert w/o a trace of evidence then becomes no big deal. God transporte them in miraculous ways. Why did He not leave any evidence of this? I don't know.

However if one takes the position of the Rambam that all miracles happend via natural means, that's an even bigger question. And yet they were nevertheless miracles... menaing that when man encoutered them, they seemed to break the plane of nature.

Ceratainly that is the case for us without the benefit of proximity to the miracles themselves. To us we can only see the splitting of the Yam Suf as a miraclke that broke the palne of nature... even if according to the Rambam it somehow didn't.
Harry Maryles | Homepage | 07.16.08 - 10:01 pm | #

>>>>> Had the Exodus story been written by a later time as bible critics suggest, how could it have possibly be sold to an entire nation if it weren't true? No one would believe it then any more than they would believe it now.

some number more than 3 billion people (over the ages) believe/believed that Jesus was resurrected after being killed on the cross and/or that he is the son of G-d. how could so many billions believe such nonsense?

The fact is that when the various portions of the Torah were introduced to the people, (maybe over time and in parts) the legends/myths were already ingrained in the minds of the people so the stpries, in principle were accepted readily, and the details were adjusted y "trustworthy" religious leaders, like the prophets or priests or 'soferim'.

Sure, there may have been some exodus of a few thousand people with some strange occurrences and that ballooned into a miraculous story
as recorded later and as we have it now.

for me, the strongest argument that the stories changed over time is the astonishing differences between events recorded, the theology inherent and commandments in devari-im contrasted with the rest of torah (ie. 3 books and leaving out 'breishit')

just compare the 'meraglim' story (objectively) between the 2 books or the revolt of 'korech' who is not even mentionned in D or the complete omission (except for a couple of occasions) of the role aaron played or the role of yom kippur or the mishkan, i could go and on.

so to focus on the 600,000 problem and say 'fu-un a kasha shtarb'd men nisht' is a super strawman.
david a. | 07.16.08 - 10:45 pm | #

oh, and just for the sake of being correct, i believe the Torah says all "draftable" males over 20, there is no upper age limit.
david a. | 07.16.08 - 10:57 pm | #

"I think I've been more abused as an adult really."

Not an answer, but I'll let it stand.

"Nearly all the 'frum skeptic' bloggers are male. Why?"

I know of several women who blog on this topic, and, what's more, you do, too, since you harrass them.

"I Hella Winston's book "Unchosen" every Frum drop out had problems with the sexual restrictions. None had problems with philosophy."

I read it. You're mischaracterizing it. For one thing, it dealt exclusively with Hassidim. For another, it dealt with only a few people. Further, while at least one of them became sexually active, he certainly didn't suggest that it was his only reason. You might as well say that t.v. is the prime motivation for leaving frumkheit. So you can't use it as support for your bizarre conclusion.

"I don't think it's anything to with charcoal in the Sinai desert. How much charcoal has been found near the Great Pyramids, where tens of thousands of workers must have camped for decades?"

I'd say there's been plenty of evidence of life in the vicinity of the pyramids. None whatsoever in the Sinai.

"It's all about wacking off and getting laid. That's the only reason people leave Orthodoxy."

Still, apart from your own delusional assertions, you have not shown a shred of evidence for this. The only thing you've shown is your own deep-seated (and rather unhealthy) obsession with other people's sexual proclivities.
Anonymous | 07.16.08 - 11:16 pm | #

It is indeed difficult to understand
why XGH is so hung up on the 'numbers
game',as if that is the most serious
challenge facing OJ. The simple truth
of the matter is that any one of OJ's
vast array of stupefyingly preposterous
claims (manna from heaven, 60 embryos
in a single womb, Moses 20 feet tall,
sticks turning into snakes etc.), is
enough to put the kaboosh to it before
it even gets off the ground.


As XGH has pointed out elsewhere: The
strongest refutation of OJ is....OJ.
ruach shtus | 07.16.08 - 11:23 pm | #

>>>> The simple truth
of the matter is that any one of OJ's
vast array of stupefyingly preposterous claims (manna from heaven, 60 embryos
in a single womb, Moses 20 feet tall,
sticks turning into snakes etc.), is

first, i think one has to differetiate between midrashic enhancement and the miracles as recorded in plain text in the Torah.

As for miracles...to say that the miracles didn't occur because miracles are not reasonable and no one has ever proven a miracle is not a proof its simply an argument. afterall, to me anyway, the very existence of the universe and life is not really rational...would you therefore say we propbably don't exist

As for believers, and as you may very well know is that strong faith trumps arguments. and i hear tell that there are even blind faith believers where strong "scientific" type proofs mean nothing to them either.
david a. | 07.16.08 - 11:47 pm | #

Again, XGH dredges up an old saw, as if the large numbers of Israelites living and leaving Egypt that is reported in the torah disproves its authenticity. Let's face it, we are dealing here with speculation. If so, I can speculate as well.

The family of Jacob lived in the most fertile part of Egypt, the Nile delta. That large region was also home to many Asian immigrants some of whom intermarried with the Israelites. Some were sufficiently integrated into their adopted families that they assumed leadership positions in the clans. One of whom, as I see it, was Caleb, the Kenizite, who became a leader of the Judean tribe. These newcomers augmented the ranks of the native Israelites and were included in the count for each tribe. The count given in Exodus and Numbers was by troop rosters with each troop normally consisting of 50 adult males (chamushim). The tribes were at liberty to complete their troops using those newcomers who had been adopted into their clans. That is why the numbers are even.

There is no reason why the Nile delta could not feed such a population in Egypt. We must also assume that the Sinai peninsula through which they wandered was much wetter then than now so that there was sufficient grazing for the animals that accompanied them. The kosher animals supplied their protein and fat needs via cheese and occasional meat. The carbohydrate nutrients were supplied by the manna, which was, apparently, a sugary aphid secretion that was carried by the wind.

As to the lack of evidence for a long sojourn in the desert, that would be significant if there were an extensive and intensive archaeological field survey of the peninsula. I am not aware of such a survey.

Any questions based on talmudic statements and midrashim are not really germane. The sages often use numbers in an exaggerated and symbolic fashion. Sometimes, there is a conscious effort to read things into the text in order to create or magnify miracles.

Y. Aharon
Anonymous | 07.16.08 - 11:54 pm | #

> Had the Exodus story been written by a later time as bible critics suggest, how could it have possibly be sold to an entire nation if it weren't true?

Very, very easily actually.
XGH | 07.16.08 - 11:55 pm | #

> And yes the devil is in the details, but there are too many questions that all add up to an answer that the entire incidnet ocurred uner miraculous conditions provided by God. Once you accept that, you cannot question it.

You seem to be saying as follows:

The stories in Shemos are too amazing to be anything but totally miraculous from start to finish (including implied miracles not mentioned by the Torah). Therefore once you accept it was all miracles, there are no questions.

True. However why should we accept that all these miracles happened? Even miracles not ever mentioned anywhere in the text?
XGH | 07.16.08 - 11:58 pm | #

David a.-
By your logic, the irrationality of the
600,000 isn't a 'proof' either, because
our tradition simply lumps that one in
with the rest of the miracles it claims,and you can't disprove a miracle.

As for 'midrashic enhancements',no one
in OJ recognizes that distinction because OJ treats Chazal's explanations
as indispensable to a proper understanding of the written text.
ruach shtus | 07.17.08 - 12:44 am | #

everyone read my blog. XD
SJ | Homepage | 07.17.08 - 5:15 am | #

>everyone read my blog. XD

And the scavengers come in to feed.
Is this blog dying? | 07.17.08 - 7:45 am | #

naa I have no intent on taking readers away from extreme xgh, the editor of extreme xgh covers stuff that I don't cover.
SJ | Homepage | 07.17.08 - 8:13 am | #

"XGH and all the other "frum skeptics" never take any questions seriously and they just ban anyone who asks them."

They're supposed to take seriously your repeated insistence that, since they disagree with you on theology, they must all be perverts? In what universe would anyone take that seriously?

Really, Jake, I have tried to see things from your perspective, and I understand how difficult it must be for you as a gay man in a community that despises homosexuality, but you really should lighten up. Maybe you just need a new boyfriend.
David | 07.17.08 - 8:51 am | #

Here's a question for xgh and the others:

Why did Wellhausen take seriously the Talmud's claim that the idolatrous priest Jonathan was descended from Moses, while rejecting the Talmud's claim that Moses wrote the Torah?

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspo...demic- joke.html
Friends of Jacob | Homepage | 07.17.08 - 9:31 am | #

>>>>> By your logic, the irrationality of the
600,000 isn't a 'proof' either,

it isn't, it simply another argument that the author of the book wasn't G-d and that he probably exaggerated

>>>> no one in OJ

that's not so, more and more the midrash, as well, as the Torah itself (especially the first 11 chapters) are being accepted as allegorical or parables.

in time, i think, that except for a few insular hold-outs, all will except the human authorship of the Torah.
david a. | 07.17.08 - 9:34 am | #

that should be "accept", not except
david a. | 07.17.08 - 9:42 am | #

in time, i think, that except for a few people who are willing to sacrifice their lives for the sake of being honest, all will except the human authorship of the Torah.
Friends of Jacob | Homepage | 07.17.08 - 9:51 am | #

>>>more and more the midrash....are
being accepted

Accepted by whom? Try selling that line
in Lakewood, Satmar,Mir, Chabad etc.
and see if there are any takers.

I certainly wouldn't mind if you're
right, but I'm not holding my breath.
ruach shtus | 07.17.08 - 10:02 am | #

Very, very easily actually.

The question you raise in the post is such an obvious one, it wouldn't have taken a millennium to ask it. Many if not most people are by nature skeptics. There would have had to be large numbers of people that just did not buy the sudden appearance of a Torah with such fantastic stories in it.

Yet the skeptics in history are relatively few - far outnumbered by believers whose beliefs are transmitted by parents generation after generation going back to a time where the actual participants witnessed it.

Those participants are the ones we ultimately rely upon plus the belief that our parents didn't make this stuff up.

What possible reason would there be to make up such a ridiculous Exodus story? Why not simplify it so as to make it more believable?

I could have thought up a much better story and had an easier time selling it than the one the Torah tells us... e.g. God created the universe billions of years ago populated it with millions of people at some point and then He appeared to all of them at one moment and gave us the rules and said 'Live by them or die - or what ever punishment applies to a given rule.' That is a much easier sell. No questions about fantastic stories, no miracles to worry about. Straight forward. Each generation would simply have a book of rules to follow given to us by God - and witnessed by - all of mankind early in the course of human history.

Instead we are told to believe a fantastic and impossible narrative. Don't you think someone would have said before now that 'the emperor has no clothes?. And yet very few did. The story must have had validity because only the most gullible would have believed such a story that suddenly appeared. What explanation could they have given to all the skeptics? How did they explain the sudden late appearance of a book like the Torah? And why then? What was it like for this nomadic homeless people before they had a Torah? What kind of cohesiveness did they have? Why were they persecuted and still stuck together for centuries before they came up with this book and the ridiculous stories in it?
Harry Maryles | Homepage | 07.17.08 - 10:08 am | #

As for 'midrashic enhancements',no one in OJ recognizes that distinction because OJ treats Chazal's explanationsas indispensable to a proper understanding of the written text. - ruach shtus

Au contraire! There is a long-standing tradition among the more rational Jewish rabbinic leaders over the ages, starting with the Geonim and more prominently with the Rambam, to treat midrashim and aggadic material as optional. You are free to accept, reject, or reinterpret all of it. I, for one, do not accept any midrash at face value that conflicts with "common sense". The torah is different, however. Treating the torah in such fashion destroys any real basis for our beliefs and practices.

Y. Aharon
Anonymous | 07.17.08 - 10:18 am | #

True. However why should we accept that all these miracles happened? Even miracles not ever mentioned anywhere in the text?

Why not? -once you accept an overall context of miraculous times.

The Torah speaks of either meaningful miracles that teach us something or the great and profound miracles. It does not bother with the minor deatils like not leaving any evidnece. There was no evidence because they traveled light. I don't know - Gos did not spell out every single miracle because there was no point in telling us. the splitting of the Yam Suf, yeah. That is somethign to talk about... leaving no evidence of their journey not so important to mention.

You imagine the Torah telling us about Kriyas Yam Suf and not saying - say at the end of Devarim - ...'And God left no evidence of the journey!...? Can youimagine saying that as part of the Haggadah? It is simply not a significant detail for the Torah to mention. A better question might be "Why didn't Chazal talk about it?" That one I can't answer.
Harry Maryles | Homepage | 07.17.08 - 10:23 am | #

Harry Maryles,

>Many if not most people are by nature skeptics.

and then

>Yet the skeptics in history are relatively few...

Which is it?
Freethinking Upstart | Homepage | 07.17.08 - 10:24 am | #

Which is it?

What I mean is that people are skeptical by nature and yet this story remains. If it weren't true it woul have faded into history a long time ago - as did the myths and fairytales of Greek and Roman gods.
Harry Maryles | Homepage | 07.17.08 - 10:26 am | #

You seem to be making contradictory statements about human psychology.

There are billions of people that believe and practice all kinds of ridiculous things. Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Scientology, New Age...

Perhaps you are arguing that Jews won't accept fantastic stories? Yet you said that our ancestors believed "such a ridiculous Exodus story?"

Which is it? Do people believe crazy things or don't they? Or are we Jews somehow different in this respect?
Freethinking Upstart | Homepage | 07.17.08 - 10:34 am | #

Y.Aharon-
you're right. I'm talking about present-day RWOJ where 'the more rational' strain of which you speak
isn't even acknowledged to exist.
ruach shtus | 07.17.08 - 10:36 am | #

> If it weren't true it woul have faded into history a long time ago - as did the myths and fairytales of Greek and Roman gods.

What about the myths of Islam & Christianity? Why haven't they faded?

I have written a new post to address your comment. Check it out.
XGH | 07.17.08 - 10:43 am | #

> Why not? -once you accept an overall context of miraculous times.

And why should I do that? No solid evidence of any miracle ever has ever been produced, so 'miraculous times' are just as unbelievable as all the rest of it.
XGH | 07.17.08 - 10:44 am | #

David, notice anything interesting?
Friends of Jacob | Homepage | 07.17.08 - 11:27 am | #

Even granting an entirely miraculous desert journey, down to angels with brooms and shovels clearing up all traces of the Jews presence, one large problem remains.

Once the Jordan was crossed and the manna ceased to fall the era of frequent miracles explicitly came to an end. So why is there not trace of the invasion of Canaan in the archeological record? 2 million invading troops would have left unmistakable signs. There aren't even signs of a rapid 20 year conquest of the land.
Larry Lennhoff | Homepage | 07.17.08 - 2:38 pm | #

That, to my mind is the bigger kashye-meyle yetzias mitzrayim, it was all a nes vechuley vechuley-but why on earth should the kibush and chalukos ha'aretz leave no evidence ( I don't know what the status of the archeological evidence is-or even if conservatives like Kenneth Kitchen are prepared to defend it). I read somwhere that R. Yoel Bin Nun has a different pshat to show how a close readin og the text idnicates that it was gradual-anyone know anything about this?
J. | 07.17.08 - 5:04 pm | #

" So why is there not trace of the invasion of Canaan in the archeological record?"

Good question, the problem is, there is evidence.

http://www.truthnet.org/ biblical...questcanaan.htm

And there is evidence of mount sinai.

http://www.harkarkom.com/
Daganev | 07.17.08 - 6:14 pm | #

While there has not been a coherent story of the conquest of Canaan via archaeological evidence, to my knowledge, there is evidence of a cultural revolution - at least in the Galil (territory of the cis-Jordan Menashe clans). Adam Zertal, a well-known biblical archaeologist in Israel had done a field survey of ancient sites in the Galil. He found an earlier developed culture (presumably Canaanite) which had become displaced by a less urban iron age one with a different housing style and which did not eat pig (no pig bones). He wrote an article about his findings in the Biblical Archaeology Review some 10 years ago .

There is a destruction layer in a major Canaanite city (Hazor), as I recall, which has been dated to the 13th century BCE. The city was reduced by fire, as described in Joshua. The destruction of the massive walls of Jericho is dated earlier, but there may have been a subsequent more modest mud-brick wall.

it is therefore inaccurate to write:

So why is there not trace of the invasion of Canaan in the archeological record? 2 million invading troops would have left unmistakable signs. There aren't even signs of a rapid 20 year conquest of the land. - Larry Lennhof

Y. Aharon
Anonymous | 07.18.08 - 11:51 am | #

Y.Aharon, your brief recap of the archaeological record isn't accurate either.

There is a record of a slow cultural revolution, which includes some conquest, in which Canaanite culture gradually becomes Israelite culture. The record reflects a few things: the culture that replaced Canaanite culture was not homogeneous. In other words, there was not a nation descendant from a single family that invaded and replaced the Canaanites. There were many different groups from many different places who were part of this cultural shift. They eventually, over perhaps a thousand years, coalesced into a single shared Israelite identity with a shared religious, historical and material culture.

The above is certainly a basis for a religion, but not for Orthodox Judaism.
rejewvenator | Homepage | 07.19.08 - 10:01 pm | #

Rejewvenator: Rather than being inaccurate (although my memory is far from perfect), I would say that my views represent one strand among the views of archaeologists. Your contrary views represent a different strand. The issue of conquest and the emergence of the Jewish religion in the promised land is beset by controversies. I assume that when sufficient excavations and absolute datings are done, greater clarity will emerge.

Y. Aharon
Anonymous | 07.20.08 - 3:36 pm | #

Not to put too fine a point on it, but there isn't any real support in the field for a conquest of Canaan as it is described in the Bible - not least because the Navi contradicts itself as to the pace, scope, and extent of the initial wave of conquest.
rejewvenator | Homepage | 07.20.08 - 6:42 pm | #