If you found out the wool of your tallis was made by slave labor in China, would you want to use that tallis?
The way halakha now works, (and by now I mean post-Moshe Feinstein), we compartmentalize to a high degree. So rabbis would say there's nothing wrong with that tallis.
But, if you look at Rav Moshe's handling of the migrant worker issue and Ceasar Chauvez, you'll see that Rav Moshe in effect ruled all non-union-harvested lettuce non-kosher.
Here you have issues of worker mistreatment – some biblical, BTW – and you have issues of animal mistreatment, tzaar baalei hayyim.
While these issue do not, in today's view, treife the meat, they are real, serious halakhic issues – biblical issues.
That you dismiss an honest attempt to do something about that is sad.
How do you know it's an "honest attempt" within a real halachic framework and not just another attempt to make Judaism "relevant"? My objection is that Allen presents himself as someone rectifying an inadequacy in kosher supervision. And I really doubt his commitment to kashrus. I don't want crusaders for broadening "all religions" to have a say in how kosher food is produced.
And maybe I don't want the bookcase that holds my sefarim to be made by mistreated workers either. If someone wants to target working conditions for companies making products, let him focus his activities in a way that makes sense instead of attaching himself to the kashrus world. Thank you for stopping by.
It IS adressed within the framework of halakhah, although not necessarily within kashrut. Why does no one care about Hoshen Mishpat?
Who says no one cares about Choshen Mishpat? There isn't a "Hechsher Tzedek" in Choshen Mishpat any more than in Yoreh Deah. I don't think Allen cares about any part of the Shulchan Aruch.
"And I really doubt his commitment to kashrus."
You have questions about Rabbi Allen, you make sweeping generalizations about his observance and his motives, but when I suggested you speak to him 'in person' on his own blog you said you doubted you would have anything to talk about with him? No, I suppose not 'with' him but you certainly seem to have plenty to say 'about' him.
I know Rabbi Allen. I met him many years ago when he first came to Minnesota and I helped him get a succa (this was just before Rosh HaShana).
He keeps kosher. His famili keeps kosher. And a large portion of his congregation keeps kosher.
You write:"There isn't a "Hechsher Tzedek" in Choshen Mishpat any more than in Yoreh Deah."
Well, I hate to break it to you, but there is not an OU or an OK, either.
Following your logic, no one should be putting hechshers on food, not even the OU.
you make sweeping generalizations about his observance and his motives
I don't think I said anything about his observance. His own account of his motives involves "determining the narrow definition of kashrut into something much broader." That doesn't sound like "commitment to kashrus" (my words) to me. If by his website you mean rabbimorrisallen2.blogspot.com, there don't seem to be any original posts or extended comments there, just some articles, including the one I already commented on.
It's hard to have extended comments when there are people who would rather speculate about him instead of talking to him directly.
You began your post with a question:
The big question is why is he picking on kashrus?
You continued with another question:
Why doesn't he just develop a social justice certification for any product?
The article you reference is included on his blog. What good does it do to comment here? You're not going to get answers to your questions by talking to yourself or to other strangers on the net. Rabbi Allen includes his email address on his blog so anyone can email him privately if they don't feel comfortable commenting in public.
If someone really wants to know why Rabbi Allen does what he does it seems like the best person to ask would be Rabbi Allen.
Funny. The man greatly INCREASED the kashrut observance in the Twin Cities, but you, more than 1000 miles away and with no first-hand knowledge "doubt" his commitment to kashrut.
Maybe you should crack some of those sefarim on your shelf and take a few minutes to learn the Hoshen Mishpat halakhot involved here. Some of them are just as important as your rib steak.
I helped him get a succa
I'm glad he sits in a sukkah. Does he think that those halachos are also too narrow?
Maybe you should crack some of those sefarim on your shelf and take a few minutes to learn the Hoshen Mishpat halakhot involved here.
Like what? Yotzei venichnas supervision in reference to food is mentioned in Yoreh Deah 118:10.
What good does it do to comment here?
it generated a fairly long discussion. Shmarya is about to take us on a tour through Choshen Mishpat.
Yes, but commenting here give you the answers to your questions that seemed so important to you when you wrote the post.
It is quite impressive that you are only too willing to continue insulting Rabbi Allen behind his back but when given the opportunity to speak directly to him about your concerns you instead only offer excuses for not doing so or sidestep the suggestion altogether.
--I helped him get a succa
----I'm glad he sits in a sukkah. Does he think that those halachos are also too narrow?
I think that says it all. You're not interested in the truth. You are arging from your preconceived conclusion.
You're not interested in the truth.
I'm interested in what parts of Choshen Mishpat you think bolster your position.
Relax. Get a beer out of the fridge. I hereby confer a temporary hechsher tzedek on all standard domestic beer.
It is quite impressive that you are only too willing to continue insulting Rabbi Allen behind his back
This is a public blog. You didn't have any problem finding what I had to say.
I'm interested in what parts of Choshen Mishpat you think bolster your position.
Are you allowed to withhold a workers pay or a part of his pay, shorting the worker?
Are you allowed to hire at one rate but pay at a lower rate?
Are you allowed to recruit illegal workers?
Are you allowed to tell those illegal workers after hire that, if you do not cooperate with me I'll turn you in to the INS?
Are you allowed to cut corners on safety?
Are you allowed to violate US law (dina d'malchuta dina)?
Are you allowed to cause unnecessary pain and suffering to animals before slaughter?
Please.
I've spoken to about a dozen senior rabbis involved now or in the past with Rubashkin. Not one of them claims these are not real halakhic issues. They simply say it is out of their hands and best left to the US government – they do kashrut, not Hoshen Mishpat.
Are you allowed to withhold a workers pay or a part of his pay, shorting the worker?
You are trying to cite things that are addressed to employers. I quoted you a passage from Yoreh Deah that relates directly to my responsibility as a person trying to decide if I can eat something. And there is an explicit connection to supervision. It isn't just a question of being the Yoreh Deah police or being the Choshen Mishpat police--in the case of normal kashrus supervision the supervision itself has a halachic basis.
Common sense ethics suggests that a person should patronize ethical businesses, but you can't just wave around a bunch of laws incumbent on employers and claim that halacha endorses the new improved "kashrus" somebody wants to invent. And by the way, dina de'malchusa dina may be a non-issue even as far as Rubashkin is concerned.
So what you're saying, whether you realize it or not, is that Biblical commandments violated by Rubashkin don't bother you.
The Conservative movement has clearly stated they are not entering into basic kashrut issues. They view the Tzedek Hechsher as just that – certification that workers are fairly treated, etc.
The OU, et al, have also stated they will not enter into this type of certification, and believe enforcement of these Hoshen Mishpat halakhot are best left to the government.
Of course, many people disagree with the OU on this.
The Tzedek Hechsher would go away if Orthodox Jews demanded honesty and fairness from community businesses like Rubashkin. But OJs do not do this.
So, like it or not, others now will.
So what you're saying, whether you realize it or not
Now, you're claiming expertise on the subject of what I'm saying, whether I realize it or not. Have a nice day.
Note: I deleted Shmarya's last comment.
I also deleted what he was responding to just to be nice to him.
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