Hey if I were a girl I would want to be pretty and slim too. Because I that way, I will have a better chance at attracting a higher bidder. And a higher bidder can provide my children with a better jump on life. Isn't that just natural?
I would agree people can and do go to these extremes. But I believe you are describing the extreme view only, certainly there are women who have moved beyond these issues and accept and love themselves fully, exactly as they are.
It can feel frightening to women when the world appears so cruel and limiting.
I suggest there is a solution and the reason people often don't apply it is the same reason they need to do it; they do not love themselves. For if a person is so emotionally vunerable as to worry about the outside worlds' opinion of them they will be disallusioned, despondant and depressed in no time flat, almost guaranteed.
Also almost guaranteed they will particpate in compulsive addictive behaviour in one form or another. From my personal experience I have come to believe the world doesn't appear to "work" if we think its' designed to give peace from the ouside, inward - it comes from within, from healthy, well-centered individuals, outward to the world around them.
How to teach and encourage this modality is a true challenge!
Dear Jay:
Public health education needs to be pushed hard, so people don't get fat, jeapordize their health, and die of a heart attack. Living a healthy lifestyle needs to be pushed in order to keep people from turning to eating disorders, etc.
Well I would agree that public education needs to be addressed, I think the first place it needs addressing is not in the "don't get fat people" department but in the "don't judge others" department. It does no good for us to publically proclaim the dangers of obesity when the public at large takes that information to bludgeon and brow beat people to death. There are few persons in the public who know the fine nuances of communication in delicate matters, such as body image and how to say what you need to say without sounding like an over-bearing, pompous a**. THAT is the underlying problem. Of public education on matters like this, as I see it. For example: We have publically educated and the MSM has constantly "informed" the nation of the health hazards of obesity.. YET..the ostracization, the heckling goes on.. is *THAT* supposed to make persons with eating disorders get over it? The reverse is true. Given an Anorexic of Bulimic.. it only drives the obsession to LOSE MORE (i.e. see.. no one likes fat people!) for the Obsessive/Compuslive Overeaters it only drives them to seek solace in food all the more (i.e., this is impossible.. I can't do this..I feel so useless, empty.. therefore I will eat THIS to fill me up)
These are no simple matters. The change has to come from all sides of the issue not just from the Public Education saying.. "your fat will kill you!" or "quit being dumb..eat you are too skinny!" If only it were that easy... then Mark's job would be that much easier as well.
Cheryl:
I would agree people can and do go to these extremes. But I believe you are describing the extreme view only, certainly there are women who have moved beyond these issues and accept and love themselves fully, exactly as they are.
True, many women have come to that point, however when the National Statistics say that:
--1 out of 100 women are starving themselves
--4 out of 100 women are bulimic
--60 out of 100 Americans are overweight and of those, 1/3 are obese
--1 out of 100 women will binge eat today.
--72% of alcoholic women have eating disorders
--2 out of 100 women have excessive worries about their body shape, size, weight
--20% of those with eating disorders will DIE from it.
--20% may have partial recovery, yet still be obsessed and create families with the same obsession
--20% of women who go into treatment will not recover at all.
The statistics show that though you may be correct for some women, it is still not enough.
I suggest there is a solution and the reason people often don't apply it is the same reason they need to do it; they do not love themselves.
Totally agree!
But why is this so? What type of society, media, world have we set up that makes this so? How do we fix it?
From my personal experience I have come to believe the world doesn't appear to "work" if we think its' designed to give peace from the ouside, inward - it comes from within, from healthy, well-centered individuals, outward to the world around them.
Soooo very true!
How to teach and encourage this modality is a true challenge!
Indeed! Thus why I have brought it here to BoP. How can we truly teach and encourage this way of being? Most people learn by example and they learn it very early in life. It's my thoughts that first.. the parenting generation NOW, needs to grasp the fullness of what you said and the reality of the statistics. We need to actively campaign to change the viewpoint of the media and of ourselves as to what IS a perfect woman? Is there a 'perfect' woman? Then, these changes need to be taught and reflected in our education of our children so that from peer to peer in the child years, we undo the damage of the "barbie doll mentality".
I mean.. consider this:
The average woman is: 5'4" and weighs 145 lbs. She wears a size 11-14. Barbie on the other hand is 6'0, 101 lbs and wears a size 4. Your average store mannequin is 6'0, wears a size 6. What we SEE is not reflecting the reality.. yet it is what we are grasping at!
8 million people have Anorexia Nervosa, Bulimia and related eating disorders.. by far and away, we are NOT addressing the issue, in my opinion.
**Statistics courtesy of ANRED**
Great discussion guys, I think however that this is more of a societal issue than a political one. This problem has existed and been brewing since the 70's. Many factors have added to this problem that it just borders on mania now. I truly believe this whole thing is a psychosis; maybe Mark could give us more insight on this.
Great topic and a fantastic post!
Wish I would have come up with it-lol
I agree with Zaph that this is a societal issue, and it seems to be heating up with the Kate Moss thing going on in the MSM.
Rather than eat up a great deal of space on the comments section I have posted on this at the woodshed
http://wizardswoodshed.blogspot.com/
Hmmm---speaking of great topics---I see the wheels turning in Mark's head for one
Blog on my friends!
Great post! I agree with everything you said. This is defintely a subject that needs much more attention drawn to it. Right now out of a fairly small cicle of family and friends I know of at least two women who have eating disorders. In the past I've had friends who purge, overexercise and just plain refuse to eat--in order to stay thin. I'm only 36 years old and from a small town, so if I know this many women with eating disorders it has to be a major issue nationally. Thanks for the insight.
When people address this topic, they tend to miss something essential to understanding this problem. It isn't what men want. Yes, men want a skinnier than average woman, but the average American woman is over a healthy weight. Freaky, unhealthy, Kate Moss skinny has nothing to do with common men's tastes. The dangerously skinny models are in high-fashion magazines aimed at women; W for example. Compare Kate Moss to Zenaida Flava (a porn diva), you'll see. Men genuinely don't like that kind of skinny. I remember watching the Olympic figure skating one year and the men in my family all commented on how good-looking Katerina Witt was; she was the men's favorite. The women in the family all said they thought she was too fat. An Olympic figure skater, too fat!
I don't know a man that doesn't emphasise that he prefers a little more weight than your average movie star; especially the ones who specialize in "chick flicks" like Julia Roberts. Seems to me it goes like this in weight order (lightest to heaviest):
Runway model
Romantic film leading lady
Action film leading lady
Swimsuit model
Porn star
That order also pretty much corresponds to the balance of women and men in the intended audience.
Hey, come on now, who among us hasn't done the occasional line here and there...kidding...well at least knowing most of the people here probably haven't been tempted by the lady on the white horse...
No, but seriously, who cares about Kate Moss...WAAAAY too much attention is being brought on her doing some coke...a super model who snorts...wow...I'm really shocked..how about we focus on real problems like the tons of people who are homeless and struggling to get by because they're hooked on crack or heroine...no one seems to care about those people but the second a celebrity does something like this it's all over the news...gimme a break
Egregious Charles:
Its good to see your heirarchy of "desirableness" and I do understand what you are saying.. yet at the same time... it just seems odd to me.. that in all of the above.. the heirarchy that you use makes ZERO mention of personality, finesse, intelligence, etc.. all of the heirarchy is based upon solely the outward appearance.
That is where the problem from the female POV, comes in... in order to be 'judged' if you will.. she must first step through this pyramid of beauty.. THEN she is either chosen or not based upon her other attributes.
Thus it continues the pattern of having to be an "attractive dish" first and foremost.
An interesting thing would be to blindfold a room full of men and in that room, allow women to simply answer questions, speak, share their life philosophies, without the men having the benefit of the visual. THEN.. let them choose the woman that they would be most inclined towards based upon her other factors. Take off the blindfolds and let's just see how much that heirarchy of 'beauty' can support the reality of what was chosen without the benefit of visuals.
Would be interesting!
Rock: you seem to have missed the point of the article all together.. it wasn't about Kate Moss's drug habit.. its about what is driving women to destruction.. and what type of role models are we choosing for our girls? THose are real issues, real people.. with real problems..
The drug issue is not the thing, well, not for this post anyways-lol
I was merely thinking with her story in the headlines it would be drawing more attention to the issue of body image and pressures of the media and advertising placed upon not only women, but also men to some extent. While we all know that there are health hazards involve with both waif thinness and obesity, the pressures to be that "perfect ten" has given rise to eating disorders afflicting large numbers of our wives, mothers, and daughters. Balance and acceptance are the keys here. Balance in our lives and acceptance of who and what we are to be.
nariel, thanks for being interested in that scale. I think, though, in commenting on the absense of personality, intelligence, etc. you're looking for more depth than I intended. I intended only to show with media examples chosen primarily for looks that men prefer heavier women than women think. I wasn't even attempting to discuss desirabilty as a mate. I think people of both sexes actually find physical attractiveness much less important than is commonly thought, especially when people are thinking of a mate not a date. My impression is that people who spend a lot of time polishing their appearance (in gyms etc.) are usually just looking to "hook up", and these are the only people who care all that much about the other's appearance. Unfortunately I don't have any convenient media examples for that.
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