TFS Magnum welcomes comments - be nice or be gone
In the .45's som e feed, some don't.
Not only is it case by case (re: guns), it is ammo type by ammo type.
Point: Make damn sure you chosen defense ammo type works in your gun!!!
Deb:
My Kimber Stainless Classic feeds 200 grain Speer Gold Dot hollowpoints flawlessly, and throws them at about 950fps for a 50 yard energy level of about 360 ft. lbs.
The main difference is that the .45 cuts a bigger wound channel, and handguns, unfortunately, aren't rifles. It isn't physical shock that incapacitates with a handgun (any handgun) round, it's blood loss, most often. (Assuming anything other than a central nervous system hit.)
Don't get me wrong, I like the .357, but I prefer bores starting with the digit ".4" better. Plus, they tend to be less deafening. 
That's why hollow points are important and that's why it was a mistake for the military to go to 9mm - since they limit themselves to FMJ. (We did not ratify the Hague accords, so why do we keep to ball ammo?)
With hollow points, a small fast-moving bullet will mushroom quickly - and can even shatter - on impact creating a large wound channel. That's why the .357 has a one-shot-stop percentage of over 90%
Stopping power is a meaningless concept. Biological damage is what does it.
Theodore Roosevelt said in his book on the Cuba campaign, if a soldier was shot in the brain, spine or heart, he died quickly, if shot elsewhere, he recovered quickly.
Different tissues respond differently. The liver tears, but because of biology, bleeding to death from a damaged liver is very slow. Even if you nick the bottom of the heart, the damage will be minimal, but the more complex top of the heart with its valves and large blood vessels will be quickly lethal.
As for Marshall and Sanow, when they censor out the multiple shot events, they invalidate their statistics, because when a fellow is shot and doesn't stop, you will normally try to shoot them again. That is how they get the ludicrously high "one shot stop" numbers.
The reason the .357 scores high is because it was used by professional law enforcement, who would usually shoot to top center, hitting brain, heart or spine.
Marshall and Sanow's approach is statistically laughable (or cry-able) and misleading in the extreme. The Strasbourg goat tests are fraud. If that is where you get your data, you will never want for moonshine.
The best you can get in a pistol is a round you can shoot accurately, to hit brain, spine, or heart, with enough weight to penetrate through likely cover, to include the perp's arms extended in front of him with a knife or gun. This corresponds to 12 inches of ballistic gelatin (which is different than 12 inches of flesh).
Once you get that, a bigger round has a marginal advantage, because the volume of tissue destroyed is proportional to the area of the round, or double the diameter.
If you use a hollow point, most expansion occurs at the first entry into tissue, because that is where the velocity is highest. Hydroshocks penetrate slightly better, and do slightly less tissue damage, because the internal spike, after expansion, presses tissue aside slowly, without doing much damage.
I like the .45 Gold dot, and use that in my bedside .45ACP revolver. Yes revolver. That way I get the bullet performance of the .45ACP with the simplicity (when woken at night I am not at my best!) of the revolver. In the unlikely event of a misfire, I simply pull the trigger again.
An update from the Double Tap catalogue:
Caliber : 9mm
Bullet : Gold Dot JHP
Ballistics : 115gr @ 1415fps / 511ft. lbs. from a G17.
Caliber : .45ACP
Bullet : 185gr. Gold Dot JHP
Ballistics : 1225fps - 616 ft./lbs. - 5" 1911
But we all know that shot placement is more important right?
The problem with hollow point feeding in the .45 ACP is primarily the feed ramp. Military guns, i.e. those set up to feed hardball only (round nose full metal jacketed ammunition). Unless the feed ramp is polished, and sometimes ground, to the proper shape and angle, bullets other than hardball, and not just hollowpoints, will hang up on the ramp. Throating the entrance to the chamber may also be required to make feeding reliable. I experienced this problem with a Combat Commander I bought way back in 1978. I was able to get it to feed semi-wadcutter lead rounds relatively reliably, but not like it feed hardball. I never did polish the ramp or work on the barrel throat but I still have the gun and shoot hardball in it regularly.
Brand of ammunition has little to do with feeding, nor does the load itself, as long as the recoil and hammer springs are of the correct weight to allow proper feeding.
I too like a small fast round. Don't know if you have tried the "new" 357 Sig. cartridge, but I really like it. It is basically a 40 necked down to a 9 mm. It has the same balistics as the 357 mag 125 gr. loading. There are many departments using this round now, and a lot of favorable results. I carry a G33 and really don't feel outgunned. Usually the cartridge that starts with 4 in a heavy bullet has a lot of drop after 25 yards. Here in New Mexico, I hear that the state academy has the recruits shoot prone at 200 yds. with their G31 just to prove to themselves that they can make the shot if they have to.
You can make a .45ACP feed anything you want with the proper gunsmithing. You can make a .357 unreliable and jam-prone through mis-use.
Too hot of loads or poor bullet crimp will jam a .357 as fast as the wrong ammo in the wrong .45ACP 1911.
Decide what you like, what ammo you want to use, and maintain your firearms. That's all it takes.
I have handguns from .22LR up to 45/70 (yes THAT 45/70) and they are all maintained, well looked over and will feed and shoot anything within pressure specs for their respective cartridges.
My .357 shoots 130g Hydra-Shoks unless it's in the woods chasing deer and then it gets fed 180 grain hand loads.
.45 carry guns shoot 165g Hydra-Shoks but at the range they mostly shoot soft cast 230g semi-wadcutters more often than ball ammo. Another "no-no in a .45." Rarely a jam but I would definitely not intentionally defensively use soft lead cast in a 1911 on purpose not to metnito it takes a lot more cleaning.
Pick the gun you like, the ammo you like, the task at hand, and all else can be sorted out.
In case it matters, my slightly hot 405g JSP 45/70 revolver loads still have approximately 2000ft/lbs of muzzle energy at 50 yards.......I bet they'd win in a "one shot stop" over the .357 all other things being equal. Wouldn't be a practical carry gun for law enforcement so we shall never see it at the top of the "stopping power" list but it will drop a Kudu like a stone.
Figure out what you shooting at and why, fettle the gun properly and they all work for what they were designed for.......of course, this is leaving $35 crap guns out of the equation.
Cheers
I truly appreciate the reliability of my Ruger GP161, Hydra-Shoks as a stopping aid AND a double tap to the chest to ensure a stop. Having said all that, I'll go for my 12 ga Mossberg pump first for home defense as it really improves nighttime aim!
Joe
For home defence a auto loader will better serve you because magnum rounds(.357, .44) shot down a dark hall way will blind both you and your attacker. .45, .40, 9mm will do the job just find in the close combat situations of most gun fihgts.
In the middle of the night I do NOT want to worry about feed jams, etc. I want a dead simple weapon. That's a wheelgun. (Hence the URL of this site.)
Autoloaders vs. Wheelguns comes down in the end to Chocolate vs Strawberry. You like what you like. I like what I like. And I like revolvers.
In terms of light.... most alarm systems today can turn on lights. And I have a million candle-power spot handy.... if anyone is going to be blinded, it isn't me.
It seems to me that the .45 bullets are always heavier than the .357 bullets that you are comparing speed and impact with. A fair comparison should be with the same weight/configuration of bullets. Does anyone have a have that comparison?
A .45 is a large, slow-moving projectile.
A 9mm is a smaller, much faster moving projectile.
To get a comparison of the .45 with a similarly large bullet, you would need to consider 10mm or 40 S&W or even .44 magnums.
The raw data is available in the Remington PDF or from the other manufacturers who produce these rounds.
Interesting threads and we all are trying to stop harm to our loved ones first and ourselves second. The first thing we have to consider is what plan of action we will take upon hearing or discovering a breech of the house. I run a Caribbean based boat so there is no leaving out the back door. For sheer stopping power nothing I can think of will out do 9 .32 ball ammo at 800 fps at one time from a pump shotgun. If your of that inclination you could load a rubber bullet but were talking stopping power now. My cop friends all talk of doing a double tap. I also think of how maligned the 9mm is here and everywhere but please tell that to the dozens of poor dead and wounded at Virginia Tech. May calibers and many choices. My carry gun of choice is a wimpy Seecamp .32 or a puny Glock 9mm. But at sea or at home the wife would get a .357 6" Ruger with 158 gr hollow points and I would hustle them into a SAFE room in the center of the house. She would call 911 and say exactly this" This is blah blah blah. THERE IS A HOME INVASION IN PROGRESS at so and so address." Do not say "Man with a Gun" Right now YOUR THE MAN WITH A GUN. Next. If you miss with a .45, 9mm, .357 or even .22 your rounds will penetrate at least 6 layers of dry wall. Just try it yourself. So I use #6 birdshot in my 12 gauge. Lots to think about. Training helps as does not drinking ever. My mom a cop who died in the line of duty used to say "you can drink or you can own guns but you can't do both" So I'm a sober SOB with a 12 gauge. Lock your doors and keep your Karma clean. Peace in the new year. Try to Keep 911 on the line and give the cops as much info as you can. If they see you with a gun walking around the house you will most likey get shot so think this whole thing through and be safe.
As a not of agreement, a recent quote from my best man (a marine):
"With all the GSW's in ERs, you know what you don't see? Shotgun wounds. They just take them to the morgue."
I have to agree that a shotgun will do a lot of damage, requires less than precise aim, and won't generally go through both layers of drywall in your house. Somewhat less concealable though...
For the same reason, I would choose a .45 ACP first, .40S&W second, and 9mm last. Yes, it has a slower muzzle velocity, but the .45 carries more energy, and is less likely to come out the other side (expends all of it's energy in the target). This means it keeps my family safe both by stopping the perp, and by stopping IN the perp.
bond arms makes a nice three inch 45/41 , adn you can take off the trigger guard - first is 410 - second is 45
Commenting by HaloScan
