TFS Magnum welcomes comments - be nice or be gone
Holy Crap. Those UK statistics are out of there. I've seen the lefty weenies on ATW talking about the wild, wild west here in the US.
Sheesh. God Bless America!
It is just too bad that these figures aren't out there where people would see them. And that they don't bother to look before they make up their minds, preferring to be sheep herded around by the liberal media.
Thanks Monica for pointing me over here.
We're constantly told, mostly by Europeans and Liberals (pretty much the same thing) that European's, with their socialism and so much more tolerant societies are a model for the U.S.
Hard to square that perception with the reality presented in your post.
Also, it's not a bad idea to remind people with a week grasp of history that these oh-so wonderful societies were also the genesis for wars in the last one hundred years that killed more than 100 million people.
But why trouble moonbat socialists and liberals with reality... they might get upset and murder someone.
I notice that Tim Lambert has no comment on this set of statistics...
Oh, and a "week grasp of history" - defined as "no recollection of anything that happened before last week."
that column heading says 10.0000. Fix it.
Er.... 100,0000 (!)
I am not surprised that facts are hidden and opinions based on false beliefs are given freely.
It seems like many people ignore the facts in order to advance their opinions. How can anyone believe that disarmed citizens are less likely to be violent crime victims?
Criminals take advantage of the weak--armed citizens are not weak and are capable of defending themselves. Criminals know this and stay away from victims that can hurt them.
In England, the citizens are hard pressed to protect themselves, unless they practice martial arts continuously or secretly carry weapons. Citizens defying the law and carrying weapons are scarce excluding criminals, so criminals are more brazen and attack the unprotected. Therefore, it followis that violent crime statistics are higher in England then in the U.S.
I am told the gangs use knives and swords in England when firearms are not available. Criminals will use whatever means available to achieve their goals.
Why do citizens who are incapable of using a firearm to protect themselves want to limit the rights of law abiding citizens who are capable of defending themselves or defending their property. It is because they believe that without an armed citizenry only property crimes would occur. What stupidty.
Is 23 violent crimes per 1,000 "an astonishing figure when compared to the US data" as the author claims? According to National Crime Victimization Survey data posted on the US Department of Justice Website there were 21 violent crimes per 1,000 in the US. Go back to 1994 and it's 51.2 violent crimes per 1,000 in the US.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/gla.../
viortrdtab.htm
So the author might as well accuse the FBI of "cooking the books" for not including all this data.
I can't believe that the author used the Sun Newspaper to back their argument
Instant fail
What absolute unadulterated drivel......I live in Houston Texas and it is the wild wild west .There is not one single night that does not have a homicide.....drive-by ( give me a break) shootings,hold-ups of convenience stores,and other delightful happenings.Don't tell me that that is happening in England or western Europe,because it simply is NOT true!
Nice post. Looks like you did your homework. Keep up the research!
Actually amg, it is true and statistics show it.
The fact is, you can predict crime by poverty and urbanization; you can not predict crime by gun-ownership. I lived in Germany, and everyone embraced the sterotype that the USA is the wild-west, despite knowing that crime has been increasing around Europe.
Since 1984, crime has been decreasing in the USA.... this trend is not true for the UK and other european nations. Infact, after the UK's handgun ban, crime went up 40%.
Also, when looking at crime rates for states that recently allowed CHP (like Flordia), rapes and assaults significantly decrease.
Furthermore, because the UK seems unable to stop violence (no State can, police get there after the crime)... they are now limiting knifes and banning some swords.
It is my belief that the UK will probably ban all pointy objects in the future ::sarcasm:: But their policies aren't working and all they can do is point to the USA. Nobody cares about the USA, they care about their crime rate increasing .... not that it may/may not be lower.
Actually, the UK Home Office just released another report showing violent crime is now the lowest level in decades too. Gun-related homicides and attacks are at the lowest levels since the 80s. In Fact, the UK now has some of the lowest gun-related homicides in the entire world.
The UK has started to increase reporting for non-serious crimes like punching and kicking and those increases are only seen in reported crime, not actual increases. The FBI doesn't even try to count these as violent crime, which is why your statistics are incorrect.
All developed countries have been seeing a drop in crime over the last few decades but only the US has such a high rate of homicides. The US is also the only country to see a recent spike in these serious crimes, in 2005 and 2006.
http://www.aic.gov.au/conference...nal/
mayhew.html
You can't compare the two sets of figures for a number of reasons.
Firstly the National Crime Recording System in the UK, used by the police and home office is very different to the the UCR.
Over half of recorded violent crime in the UK results in no injury to anybody, and is made up of verbal threats, harrasement or petty arguments.
Of the other 50% of violent crimes, more than 95% were simple assaults, resulting in very minor injuries, and the remaining 21,000 were recorded as more serious assaults against the person.
Hospital Data reviewed by Cardiff Medical Schools Violence Research Group, has shown a sustained drop in violent crime since 2000, with over 20% less hospital admissions for violent crimes (NHS Accident and Emergency Data).
This data ties in with the British Crime Survey.
It should also be noted that there were 46 gun crime deaths in the UK last year, compared to around 10,000 in America (a country with only five times the population). Whilst the UK Murder rate has had a sustained fall and was around 765 last year (including the London Bombings).
New York alone has around 500 murders, whilst London's rate has also dropped to around 160 murders a year.
Serious Violent crime in the UK has being falling,
and other crimes such as burgulary and car crime have more than halved in the last 10 years.
It seems to me that Americans are trying to scapegoat Britain, a relatively safe country, with few murders, (especially when compared to the 17,000 in the US last year) in order to justify high levels of gun ownership.
Very Sad.
PS.
The National Crime Recording Standard used by the British police does record crimes for under 16's, it's the British Crime Survey, that does not.
The BCS is similar to the NCVS in the US, although the BCS is a face to face interview rather than a telephone survey.
As for the the mugging claim, it was a largely over exaggereated piece of nonsence, based on little evidence and based on the premise that one fifth of crimes are not reported.
However even if you did believe the story, the figures are massively inaccurate due to there being 195 days in the school year.
The Conservative Party sponsored nonsence has largely been discredited as rubbish.
You really should actually read the reports you quoted, TFS Magnum. The British Crime Survey is an interview and only about 5% of all of the crime included as "violent crime" exists in the FBI definitions.
More than a third of "violent crime" in the UK is verbal harassment. The FBI doesn't even consider anything less than aggravated homicide a violent crime.
Of course, murder rates are about 5-6 times higher in the US. Aggravated Assault is about 10 times higher in the US. When you actually compare the numbers side by side, you realize the UK has much less violent crime... they just like to track a lot of crimes the US considers too minor to be considered "violent".
To quote you
"Police budgets are comparable
New York has 40% more cops on the beat"
London and New York are two very different cities, and have different rquirements.
For instance London is home to hundreds of embassies and diplomats, and the Metropolitan Police have to fund the Royalty and Diplomatic Protection Group, which does a similar job to the
Secret Service in the US.
Americas Embassies aren't in New York, they are in Washington DC, the nations capital.
Secondly unlike the NYPD, Scotland Yard is the lead policing organisation in terms of counter terrorism and 1500 officers work in the new Counter terrorism command, which works closely with MI5 (a non police agency with around 3500 employees)
The new Serious Organised Crime Agency (a non police agency) now has the lead role in terms of organised crime, with some 4500 employees, with much of their work centered around London.
Thirdly the Metropolitan Police arent the only police force in London, there is also the City of London police with another 900 officers, who patrol the square mile or financial district and who work closely with the 31,500 officers of the
Metropolitan Police. The City of London Police are also specialists in financial and economic crime, and have a close relationship with both the Serious Fraud Office and the Financial Services Authority.
Over 1500 members of the British Transport Police, a further seperate police force, with around 2500 officers (the majority in London)
have reponcibility fot policing London's Underground System, Rail Stations and Rail Network.
Finally London also has a rising number of Police Community Support Officers working in neighbourhood teams headed by community police officers, and the Met is in the process of putting more offices on the beat via the police neighbourhood policing scheme.
The extended police family also includes civilian custody officers, civilian investigators and supporting companies whose areas of expertise range from forensic computer analysis, through to the tracking of mobile phones.
Try reading this, it's the UK Stats that have changed not crime levels.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle1059742.ece
Another Good Article.
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/
c...1466343,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/
...1824692,00.html
http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/
l...about_crime.php
I think it is possibly hard for an American to
appreciate, but any rise in UK crime has more to do with daft police targets and changes in the statistics used than anything else.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/...13/
ncrime13.xml
The UK is still a very safe country.
Finally read this.
http://www.anxietyculture.com/cr.../
crimescare.htm
You do realise that London had 160 Murders last year, and it's murder rate has been falling for several years.
Serious Violent crime, Burgulary, Car crime etc are all falling and London's crime figures are the envy of most big cities.
Even New York has around 570 murders.
Btw New York City only covers an area of 320 Square Miles, whilst Greater London (the Metropolitan Police Area) covers 620 Square Miles (nearly double).
In a smaller and more compact city, the process of gentrification and high rents has had a massive impact on crime levels, with predominately black neighbourhoods such as Harlem now becoming middle class city yuppified
places.
Brooklyn, is now a very sought after location, and even the rents in West Bronx (a traditionaly poor area) have risen massively.
New York's population is increasing, however, it's black and traditional populations are declining. This more than anything explains New Yorks sharp decline in crime, and why other cities have tried New York policing methods (such as Philadelphia) too little effect.
It wasn't the police who cleaned up New York, or FBI Agents, it was real estate agents.
Erm.. only 5% of UK "violent crime" results in serious physical injury
In fact, almost 50% results in NO physical injury at all
The definition of violent crime in the UK is stupid, and we include a lot more things than you do in the US.
Look at REAL figures for robbery, homicide, rape etc and you will see that the US has consistently higher crime in those areas.
I would also like to point out that crime rates have only fallen in the US since 1991, and even then, it's a very gentle decline.
am english man with american father, have spent a lot of time there, trust me london has very dagerous areas just like most large american citys, parts of east london DHL refuse to deliver too because of the risk too their drivers, yes the murder rate is low here but that that has more to do with us not having a gun culture in the same way the us does,however this does not relate to crime on a whole
"I would also like to point out that crime rates have only fallen in the US since 1991, and even then, it's a very gentle decline."
According to the FBI Uniform Crime Report ( http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/ ) for 2005 (It seems I didn't do a posting on the 2006 report that came out in 2007) we get the following data.
Violent crime peaked in 1993 at 758.2 per 100,000 inhabitants.
In 2005 that number was 469.2 per 100,000 inhabitants.
That is a 38 percent decrease in violent crime.
Over the same period, the murder rate decreased from 9.5 to 5.6 per 100,000. That is a 41 percent decrease in the murder rate.
A nice gentle decline.
FBI raw data is at http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/da...a/
table_01.html My charts on the subject are at http://wheelgun.blogspot.com/200...port-
trend.html
My complete analysis of the 2005 UCR is at http://wheelgun.blogspot.com/200...-
report_19.html
Your analysis is extremely dishonest. I looked at the UK crime statistics and they were much lower than the US in every category.
The violent crime victimization rate is at the lowest levels in history, with the fastest decline in a hundred years. The only way you could pretend crime is higher is if you use NCRS data and ignore the fact that 75% of all violent crimes were in categories added in the last few years including pushing, shoving, slapping, verbal assault, water and air guns.
The US doesn't even record these crimes, but the UK considers them serious violent offenses.
Stabbing deaths are a serious concern in the UK, but the FBI shows the US has twice as many, per person. Gun homicide rates are 50 times higher in the US.
I am still trying to get to the bottom of this UK vs US violent crime argument. I am not at all convinced either way. One issue seems to be that crimes are categorised differently. E.g. in the UK 'assault' means 'putting someone in fear of violence' so can include someone making verbal threats only (even over the phone). I don't think this is the same for the US so the categories are simply not comparable.
A second point is the vastly more crowded and consequently less socially segregated nature of UK society means that you are more likely to get poorer burglars or muggers living close to rich folk with lots to steal.
But the main puzzle is that _if_ one accepts that UK violent crime is at least comparable, if not worse than, US violent crime, one has to wonder why the murder rate is vastly lower.
Why is it that Brits, allegedly with at least an equal fondness for violence, if not greater, are so much less successful at actually killing each other? Hmmm? What could the reason _possibly_ be?
This is why I find it puzzling that the 'high UK violent crime rate' argument (which I so far haven't been able to decide the truth or falsity of) is so often bought up by pro-gun bloggers. It seems to be a case of shooting themselves in the foot.
Far better, surely, to argue that Brits don't kill each other so much because they are just generally less violent, and thus no deductions about guns and murder can legitimately be made from a US-UK comparison. Given that the stats could support this position at least as well, I'm surprised few US pro-gun bloggers take it.
This is an interesting take on statistics.
Being a Brit in the US, I wondered what the stats were considering there is an article on the morning news each day where someone has been shot at a gas station or an apartment complex.
The only shootings in Manchester tended to be one gang had shot another gang, that normally happened once a week.
Adding to your previous posts, spitting at someone is assault. And we are rubbish at killing people, despite the massive difference in salary vs consumer price indexing. You would have thought the murder rate in the UK would be through the roof!
That got me thinking;
Gun crime (remembering that guns are illegal in the UK).
http://www.crimeinfo.org.uk/
serv...gory=factsheets
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/
gla...nonfataltab.htm
Works out that UK = 2.11 per 10,000 and the US = 13.99 per 10,000 population. (England and Wales [only] has a combined population of 52m)
I didn't compare what constitutes crime though except the US stat is non-fatal firearms offences and the UK is firearms offenses in England and Wales.
Hope this is interesting.
Ta
Verbal insults are regared by the UK as violent crimes, in the USA they are not.
Gun deaths in the UK are 300 times lower than the USA and 14 times lower than France.
Crime in the UK is rare, in the USA common and accepted.
Gun laws prevent gun deaths and thats what the stats show. The right wing in america wants its people to believe gun ownership makes them safe whereas it does not.
I moved to the UK from Milwaukee in August of 2008 -- believe me, I can see the difference. Kids are beating up kids all the time here and stabbings seem to be a daily occurance. Kids beat each other up with pipes because of different tastes in music and when the police are called for these types of offences they usually respond with "we're busy now, we'll handle it tomorrow" - nothing is ever done about it. If it were I would imagine their crime statistics would be much higher than reported.
I am told that the area in which I live is one of the safest in the country, but I'm still afraid to walk outside after dark.
yes gun crime is lower here in the uk given that its way way more easier to get hold of guns in the usa,
but for crimes such as street robberies, car theft , burglries, asault, muggings and now one of the highest countries for knife crime and cocaine users
it makes the uk dangerous in a differant way than the usa. The gun crime in usa is more often over gang banging and major drug deals ect so if you stay away from gang terotory and drug dealing your relatively safe but over here you have kids that know no better that go as far as to stab you for your mobile phone or ipod and you cant escape from stuff like that i mean who doesnt have an ipod etc nowadays
Actually, the Brits are also seriously under reporting their homicides.
Besides the fact their police have said so, which has been reported on line, Scotland's government called them on it, which is also online, and their funny way of only calling something a homicide if they convict a perp, you can go look at their coroners statistics and see there is a serious difference between the open verdicts they give (where it is a 'suspicious death' and the homicide rate.
For 2008 when the Brits listed about 757 homicides, the Brit coroners statistics reported 2100 some 'open verdicts' along with 200 some unlawful death verdicts.
"The Open verdict is an option open to a Coroner's jury at an Inquest in the legal system of England and Wales. The verdict strictly means that the jury confirms that the death is suspicious but is unable to reach any of the other verdicts open to them. It therefore affirms that a crime has been committed without stating by whom."
From wiki and also contained in the Coroners statistics definition.
How they can go from 2100 suspicious deaths (the lot would be called homicides in the US) to the numbers they end up with I will leave to you to decide.
Mike's America: 'We're constantly told, mostly by Europeans and Liberals (pretty much the same thing) that European's, with their socialism and so much more tolerant societies are a model for the U.S.'
Actually the European countries are not 'socialist'. All countries in Europe practice free-market capitalism, not socialism. The last socialist countries in Europe (former Eastern Europe) converted to captialism with the fall of the Berlin Wall, twenty years ago.
Re: "I moved to the UK from Milwaukee in August of 2008....
WItoUK | 02.18.09 - 08:24:25"
You make it sound so easy. But how on earth can you "move" to the UK?
Last I heard, it is nearly impossible to move to the UK. The UK doesn't offer any sort of immigrant visa that you can even apply for.
You posted that 600 muggings a day add up to 113,000 additional crimes per year, and yet 600 X 365 = 219,000, perhaps a simple error in calculations, just though I should point that difference out
Dude there were 17 Killings in London compared to 600 in Chicago get over it
uk criminals arnt scared of police!
after all they dont carry guns with them.
Few years back there was a armed robbery in bradford, two police officers(rookies) was called to the seen as they was the closest.
Attending the scene with only a armoured vest, they was both shot on sight. One was fatal and one was rushed to the hospital.
I mean if that wasnt a wake up call for police to carry guns i dont no what is but as usual the idea was dismissed.
According to the FBI.... Violent crime is composed of four offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault.
And according to the UK police report.... Much of violent crime is low level violence (such as pushing and shoving) and around half of violent crime does
not involve any injury to the victim.
Lies, Damn lies and Statistics?
And since the UK gun laws were toughened at the end of the 1990s, the 'violent'crime rate in the UK has almost halved.
As previous posters have commented, the figures you provide are entirely misleading. What the UK classifies as violent crime would not be so described in US statistics: shoving, insults, etc.
What's more telling is a comparison of the homicide rate Homicide rates in US cities are astonishing to an Englishwoman. They match those of chaotic third world nations. Scary.
The US has a population roughly five times the size of the UK. We're much more packed together than you are. However the UK had 648 homicides in the whole of 2008. Washington DC had 69.3 per 100,000. Extrapolate that and you get a comparable figure of 693 per million - that's over 60 times as many homicides as we have here. Whew!
That's focusing on the worst city, though. Other parts of the US are far safer. But overall, you are 4 times more likely to be the victim of homicide in the US as we are in the UK. And the UK is the most violent of the EU nations. Check out http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/153988.stm
There were only 38 fatal shootings in the whole of the UK last year. Our most dangerous city (Belfast) has a homicide rate of 4.4 per 100,000. See http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/200...ecession-
impact
America's gun laws seem insane from a European perspective. Having a gun in the house is more of a risk to the inhabitants of that house than to any intruder.
Sadly, Americans too often have a solipsistic world view - though it's understandable in so huge a nation. Where our news goes local > national > world, American news coverage goes local > state > national, with world news very much an afterthought. Too many Americans are therefore pretty clueless about the world beyond their borders.
An American tried to convince me that the US must be the best nation in the world because of the huge numbers of legal and illegal immigrants desperate to get in. He was amazed to realise that all the wealthy nations of the world face exactly the same problem.
It seems interesting to me that the yanks are attempting to justify their country as "safe" and attempting to scapegoat Britain.
Matter of the fact is, the MAJORITY(over 50%) of crimes which are reported in aren't even physical. So get some real data(Not The Sun) and report back to us.
most violent crime are not even recorded because they are done by YOUTHS!!!
we're talkin 10 -> 16 year olds here, crazy brainwashed children who would kill on sight to get into a gang.
drug dealers cant walk around on the streets cos theres 12 year olds ready to stab u and take your drugs.
now imagine if we had guns......
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