congradulations!!
God Bless Iraq
Congratulations! You and all Iraqis have every right to feel very proud of yourselves. You have shown the terrorists, the tyrants, and the rest of the world that you are a brave people ready to die for freedom and democracy--that it means that much to you.
I have prayed many days that this election could be as successful as it has been with no bloodbath and a big turnout. Now after watching late into the night and reading blogs much of the afternoon, I am truly overjoyed for you all.There have been times that tears of joy have streamed down my face reading the many Iraqi blogs. I share your joy today.
This is only the first step along the road to freedom and democracy, but all journeys start with a single step. May God bless this step and each one hereafter.
Mimi
North Carolina
Glad to know you're safe Zeyad......Mabrook....
Very sincere congratulations! I have been in the Washington, DC area recently. There is a polling place there. Iraqis from all over the Atlantic coast drove many hours to get there. They danced in the parking lot, sang songs, cried, cheered, applauded, praised God and thanked America. Very heartwarming. I only wish there had been three times the number of polling stations. There is a large Iraqi community north of Seattle, but no polling place, I don't believe. They drove to Los Angeles to vote!
I wonder how the kings, dictators, mullahs and thugs really feel about this? They will congratulate, but I'll bet they will tighten the screws on their own people.
And the pinheads will continue to blather on, too.
I knew you would vote from Jordan, Zeyad.
Congratulations!
The world will remember this date forever.
Thank you also to the Coalition soldiers and all the Iraqi police and soldiers.
Congratulations to you and all the other Iraqi heros who voted.
What a beautiful historical day!
Hello Zeyad,
Thanks for blogging to us on this special day!
Zeyad said, devised several methods to get rid of the stain. One of these is to paint your fingers with skin lotion before you enter the polling station, wipe your finger clean immediately after voting and before the ink dries, on returning home dip your finger in boiling detergent and rub it repeatedly.
I hoped that people would think of something like that - the indelible ink was a really dumb idea - I was thinking that rubbing petroleum jelly on the skin first would ensure that the ink lifted off pretty easily.
I would be very very cautious about relying on tv reports - they do not show the full picture.
I'm so glad you were able to vote. When I read on your blog that you were leaving Iraq and would be out of country when the vote took place, I didn't quite know what to make of it. I'm so glad that you didn't miss this historic opportunity to chart a better future for your country.
Congratulations, Zeyad!
Congratulations, Zeyad, and glad to hear that you have voted.
Odd, isn't it, that you had to go to Jordan for safety, but you feel nervous about speaking your mind there for fear of ill-intentioned agents.
Good luck.
Zeyad,
It was a wonderful day for Iraq. I'm glad to hear you voted. I also thought you would. Congratulations!
As Churchill might have said, this is not the beginning of the end, but the end of the beginning.
congratulations! We wish you all the best. See, America is there to help you and your people to achive freedom - nothing more and nothing less. This is what all the Iraqi and American solders died for and i think it was worth it.
Rachel, a Brit in London - you couldnt even muster a congratulations - thats really sad.
Congratulations Zeyad.
I am so sorry that you and your family have suffered through these times, and have lost loved ones like your cousin. I am proud of you for speaking your mind and exercising your freedom to say what you think on this blog. I am proud of the Iraqi people for being brave and taking hold of their destiny.
God bless Iraq.
Zeyad,
I didn't believe that you would miss the opportunity to participate in these momentous events, and I'm delighted to hear that you were able to participate from Jordan. The euphoria will wear off, I'm sure, but right now I'm still flying high.
Congratulations again.
I am getting shivers from the news today. Iraqis have shown their mettle to the world and have my enduring respect.
Congratulations! Happy Independence Day!
God bless the Iraqi people and all those who have paid the price for freedom.
Zeyad, on American TV today several people were on TV reading from Iraqi blogs (Jeff Jarvis and Joe Trippi were on MSNBC, Spirit of America was on C-Span). I remember when you first began writing... so I was thinking of you, too, and I am glad you could vote in Jordan. I am happy for Iraq and all Iraqis today, no matter where in the world they are!
Thanks so much for posting!
Congratulations for what? Life for many Iraqis is still worse than it was under Saddam - electricity outages, water failure, ill-equipped hospitals, terrible terrible security situation - and this is two years after the US-led coalition invaded Iraq. The only government that will be allowed to "govern" Iraq will be a puppet, pro-Washington government.
Anyone thinks that the terrorists are going to be disheartened by today's election is deluded. And the US has only itself to thank.
"Anyone thinks that the terrorists are going to be disheartened by today's election is deluded. "
Judging by your reaction, they are going to be downright hysterical. Have you ever heard of a concept called "emotional intelligence"? It's the ability to tune in to the emotions of others and to respond appropriately. Rachel, every single Iraqi blog today is full of joy and wonder. The entire world over, people have seen that Iraqis are made of the purest steel and are united in their admiration for their courage.
Even those who have reservations about the election, even those who recognize that this is the beginning not the end, want to share for one day in this astounding and momentous occasion.
Rachel, give your precious agenda a rest for one day and join the human race, if only briefly.
the people from the evening star have fullfiled the promise to the peoples that began civilization
I must disagree with your Jordanian acquaintance, democracy works best from the ground up instead of the top down. Democracy must be embraced, never imposed. Iraq embraced democracy today.
Congratulations!
I am so ready for the day that my country (Israel) will not be the only Democracy in the Middle East. Free elections are such a giant step in that direction. I hope we both live long enough to drive safely to/from Baghdad from/to Tel Aviv, as ordinary tourists.
It's very moving.
Congratulations from California!
Never forget, freedom must be defended, because many people inside and outside of Iraq are plotting to destroy your democracy. As we say, freedom is not free.
Congratulations! I salute the bravery and determination of the Iraqi people! Today is a wonderful day!
Rachel, give your precious agenda a rest for one day and join the human race, if only briefly.
But, Bridget, Rachel can't do that. Rejoicing with the Iraqis would put her "precious agenda" in danger.
I've seen it before - I knew lefties who were quite sourfaced when the Berlin Wall came down.
Fortunately, I don't think the Iraqis are paying too much attention to the Rachels of this world.
Congratulations Zeyad,
I'm so glad that you both managed to vote on this historic day AND found the time to tell us about it.
The terrorists must be very disheartened that so many Iraqis ignored their vicious threats. And what a morale boost for the Iraqi security forces, who successfully protected their people's right to vote. Could this be the turning point? Let's hope so.
God bless Iraq. Allah, Yahweh, Buddha, whoever, I don't care. God Bless Iraq. And god bless the Iraqis. Except for the bastards trying to kill other Iraqis for deciding who their own leaders will be. Screw them.
There are still members of the KKK here in America: thirty years after the civil rights movement essentially won the public argument. We can't get rid of these people, we can only deprive them of power. I wish the same wasn't true in Iraq, but I fear that it is and you will have them with you for a long time. But they can be defeated, and only by resistance, such as you are offering. So god bless you.
Congratulations to you Zeyad and your family on this historic day.
It seems that Iraqis surprised even themselves with the high turnout. Though its likely there will continue to be insurgent attacks, it should be less likely now that Iraq will sink into a civil war. This high turnout at least highlighted the values of freedom and democracy that unite Iraqis, regardless of how the votes fall out.
I bet there will be even longer lines to sign up for the IP/ING now. With this vote, Iraqis are now in control of the government, and I have a hard time imagining that it will ever be the other way around again.
Zeyad - congratulations today was truly historic. Tell Nabil that his blog was featured today on MSNBC by Jeff Jarvis. He may have featured your blog also - but I didn't watch him all day so I'm not sure.
Long live Iraq!
You are a beacon to the world. Congratulations.
"Hold your head up high, Remember that you are Iraqi."
If you are an Iraqi, You Have a Damn Good Reason to hold your head UP High
Today. Aw-sum, Just an Aw-sum Day!
Congratulations, Zeyad.
It's a wonderful, beautiful, inspiring, exciting, promising day!!
A'ash al Iraq!
More congratulations to the people of Iraq who who were brave enough to go vote today. If democracy is what you want, you have America's support. For the people of Iraq, a better day is coming. It's clear to the world now that Iraqis have chosen to assert themselves and take their own destiny in their hands. Every American looks forward to the day when we can bring our troops home and leave Iraq entirely to the Iraqis. Then our two countries will deal with each other as equals in trade and cultural exchange. Your freedom is worth fighting for. The Baathists and islamist fanatics are in the minority. Keep fighting and you'll win.
Thanks for your previous post. I am glad to hear that amidst the chaos there was a breathe of hope today.
Admiring you and your people from afar. Congratulations!
Christie G.
I hope you don't mind I linked you on my sidebar. I hope to follow your writings. Christie
The truth begins to emerge: Any Iraqis who did not vote lost their food rations! Here is the proof.
It is also reported that Iraqi police, Iraqi National Guard, and American troops went door-to-door in many parts of Iraq. Any people who did not show the purple mark of submission were driven out of their houses at gunpoint and forced to the polls.
May this tiny step forward be rewarded by positive action to unite the Iraqi people.
Saddam's iron fist was necessary to keep the minority Sunnis, Baathists, et al, wealthier than the oppressed minorities.
I also view this as the end of the beginning.
I also believe there was either incompetent management by the US Administration, or it was deliberately creating instability, to the detriment of Iraqis, and even its own troops. I believe a big part of the mission was to keep educated, skilled Iraqis unemployed, while US contractors took their jobs, and thus fuelled the insurgency. I believe that the US military's control of the fuel, and the gas and kerosene shortages, have caused the rage and misery.
There is no excuse for the collapse of security, order and infrastructure, given the time that the Pentagon spent planning the invasion, not to mention its claims in the NY Times that it had an elaborate plan for the occupation after March 2003. Turns out that 'intelligence' is whatever they choose to make up as an excuse after the situation, since there is no accountability for failure...
I'll be watching closely for a Sunni 'statement' of how they will participate in Iraq's governance, as well as those commando operations in Iran and Syria.
BTW, Congratulations, it's been a while (since 1954)--let us all pray that Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld see through and fix what they broke...so the good and courageous people of Iraq and their children do not have to suffer any more. It's not as if the USA can suffer any more in its transparently selfish image internationally...our citizens are now nobly ponying up tsunami relief, while Bush had to be nudged by his PR people that his first offer of $15 million is less than Roger Clemens makes to pitch a baseball, while Norway is sending $500 million or so in public funds, without a second thought...
I'm glad you got to vote. I hope this is not just one good day, but the beginning of many better days.
Purple & orange are the colors of the year. (The fingers look, purple, not blue to me.)
You know, I think we should actually copy this here in the U.S., so people could vote away from their assigned precinct if they had to but no one could vote twice.
Congradulations!
The courage of the Iraqi people leaves me speechless...
Zeyad,
I want to extend my congratulations to you, your family, and the Iraqi people who went out to vote with admirable courage. Praise the Lord!! In Christ alone, there is freedom and peace. The prayers of many for Voting Day in Iraq and the mass embrace of freedom in Iraq has been answered. It gives many of us around the world (including myself)joy to see and know democracy and freedom is being embraced.
Christy, California
This guy is vermin - http://raedinthemiddle.blogspot.com/.
I bet he was cheering on, if not providing outright support to, the scum that tried their best to kill and mame the innocent men and women who bravely went to the polls today.
I don't understand that sort of evil - I guess I just don't have it in me.
I know the insurgents won't give up and it will not be easy to form a new Iraq. And I have to say that some of our government's bad decisions in the aftermath of the invasion have made things so very much more difficult for you. But the vote is a start! God bless you and your family and your country; many people the world over, of many religions, are praying for the success of a new peaceful and decent government in Iraq. You and your countrymen are in my prayers daily.
And to you naysayers, bush lied and Rachel, get a grip! I wasn't too keen on the idea of the war either, but can't you be happy for those people seen on TV celebrating, dancing, and weeping that they were able to vote? Just remember, it's not about you, ok?
Marty from Virginia, USA
What a proud day for Iraqis! I was in AWE watching the BRAVEST AND COURAGEOUS Iraqis going to vote today. A zillion blessings to you and your country.
RAchet the Brit...
Check yourself into a hospital. You are truly sick. I mean, nobody digs an alcoholic self destructor.
You need meds.
I laugh my ass off everytime you post. You, in London Town dare to tell an Iraqi what his first vote means or doesn't mean? What he should believe about his country and this time when he is living there and living it?
You're delusional, babe. Seriously, do your keepers know you get on the computer?
Zeyad...
Heartfelt and sincere congratulations!
Whatever the road leads to, I know you will be strong and keep pushing forward as you have ever shown us on your blog.
Enjoy this moment. Breath the taste of freedom and cry your tears of joy.
tomorrow is soon enough to worry about people like the Brit.
Hi Friends: The Iraqi election was awesome. I have been brought to tears many times this week-end, hearing the stories of the Iraqis, watching them vote and celebrate and dance. It has been great. Keep up the good work !! God bless all freedom-loving Iraqis, our brave U.S. military forces and our brave allies. May this be just the first of many triumphs for the Iraqi people. Inshallah. Best wishes from Texas. Kathy L.
congratulations, Zeyad, and may peace and prosperity closely follow this election!
It's great that so many participated in such a show of non-violent defiance of the terrorists in Iraq.
Iraqis showed themselves to be a remarkable people this weekend. To see a nation of people who have endured so much for so long still have their pride, love for their country, and inspiring courage moved me.
Hopefully it will be sooner than later, but there is no doubt that Iraqis will make their country in spite of everybody else.
Congratulations Zeyad! A world looks on in awe at a proud nation and it's people.
Zeyad,
I am glad you voted. I wasn't sure by waht you wrote about going to Jordan. By my name, you know that America and GWB will not leave you alone. God bless Iraqi's who voted and our brave American men & women. LET FREEDOM RING!
Zeyad! Was so elated for you and all Iraq. Glad you voted, and you're right the first seed has been planted, now Let Iraq Flourish!
Congratulations Zeyad, this is the best day for Iraq. All the best to you!
There's another candle lit for all those who lost their lives in this monumental struggle.
Congratulations, Zeyad! What a wonderful day!
Do you realize that the percentage of Iraqis who voted is greater even than the record turnout for the U.S. elections in 2004? And nobody was shooting at us!
Congratulations as well, Zeyad!
Now let's see the results...
I hope the life of you and your people will be better from now on (?).
Zeyad!!!
It was a great day for Iraqis. It's been a long journey. I hope the day comes when everyone can talk even more freely about such matters everywhere, and people don't have to be afraid of showing that they voted.
You were the first Iraqi blogger I found. Thanks so much for showing us what it's been like, the good and the bad (we remember...).
From your post, and to paraphrase another time,
We Are All Iraqis Now.
i wonder if any of the israelis eligible to vote ended up voting...
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spa...ges/
533488.html
Zeyad,
Today represents the reason I've supported the war. This is a huge step toward the goal. Iraqis should be proud. Eight million, under the threat of death, stood up together. Be very proud.
After the ugliness of your cousin's murder. I understand you may have mixed emotions about Americans. I hope you can see that we, as a group, are as appalled by the tragedies and as proud of the successes. I'm not a war supporter because of patriotism, although I'm a proud American. I'm a war supporter because I'm a fellow human. My best wishes to you, your family and Iraq on this great day.
Zeyad,
I'm really glad you voted.
I am very happy for you and your fellow Iraqis. It is gratifing to see people come to realize they can control their own desitny. However, no system is perfect and I am certian many changes will take place befor your country settles on the system that works best for them. Your countrymen must always be vigilant against those who would enslave them for freedom is hard won but easily lost.
Welcome to the free world! May you find peace and prosperity under the flame of Iraqi liberty.
The courage Iraqis showed today was inspiring!
The IP should now stop suspicious characters and make them dip their finger in the ink. If enough of the bad guys get marked, the rest will be safe.
Congratulations Zehad, you are a credit to your country and the wider community of man. I have followed your blog since you first started it and have passed it on widely.
Freedom for Iraq and her people, you have all proven that you can do it and we are so very proud of you all.
Annie from Australia
This is a very nice day for Iraq, and really for freedom loving people everywhere. I stayed up almost all night watching it. Only a true cynic could not be moved by what I saw.
Head Up High, I am
Brave my people made me proud.
Zyad
Arne
Saturday I wrote to an Iraqi friend in the US the following:
It is Saturday PM in Bangkok where I am now and there is no election booth that I can vote in. What I see on TV made me so unhappy for myself for not taking part of this momentous time for not just my country but the entire history of mankind. For what I see on TV made me feel silly for making jocks about this event. I must admit that my human anxiety and my revolutionary sentiment that I had during my youth have electrified me and made feel to wish that I am in Baghdad in the centre of the event to go out in the street to dance and cherish the moment that those coward bastard of the past, the backward and evil forces of darkness, the Islamist, Wahabis, Bathist and the like, want to colour with the blood of the wonderful people of Iraq. I felt I wouldn’t care and would give a damn if I die for expressing my freedom that defined me as a human. It is not the patriotic feeling that is moving in me but the feeling of a free man that is making me angry. Good on Sistani the man who made it as a faithful call to vote and called upon all Muslim to go to the ballet to cast their votes. Excuse my sentiment for feeling guilty at this great moment of history that I am not involved in. I can’t wait for tomorrow to find out that the brave people Iraq are going out to be free. I hope the majority of them now feeling like me to brave it out early Sunday morning to show that the voice of freedom is stronger than the sound of the bullets.
I have to say that, apart from the moron Bush Lied, whom I think may actually be a failed comedian Rachel is the most pathetic excuse for a thoughtful, decent person I have run across in a ling time. Not a word of anything positive, it seems as though she wastes her life crawling in the muck to find anything about which to be a shriveled worm of a human being.
Tho the Italian and I have fired sharp barbs, I never have thought that he was anything but sincerely looking for the best (deluded and in error as he is). Rachel, on the other hand, sifts everything looking minutely for the least wrong or offense, then runs with it. Truth, facts and reality are irrelevant. As I have said before, she eagerly wished for death, destruction, blood in the streets.
How very loathsome!
The rest of the Arab world is sooooo jealous.
For proof, just look at Al Jazeera's coverage of the day. They just can't stand it.
You and all Iraqis have made your election a wonderful thing. Stand together and work together for a good government.
Democracy can be a gigantic pain, but it's the best system going. I hope the terrorist murderers got the message, but some are sickos, and others are too sure they're right to even think about being fallible.
Congratulation Zeyad!!!
I was sure you will vote and you did.
Long live Iraq
ela from Canada
I went to a concert with a bunch of friends. After the bands got into a few songs I spotted this hot girl. I introduced myself and we started talking. We started making out and feeling each other up.
I was hard instantly and I decided to unzip myself, and allow my cock to peek out of the top of my zipper. I reached under her skirt again as the crowd pushed and felt her bare ass cheek. While I felt under her skirt, I noticed that she had no panties.
I positioned my cock directly behind her pussy and lifted her skirt slightly as I put the zipper flap of my pants in her ass crack, and pushed forward with the crowd. She didn't turn around as I ground my body against her.
I lowered my body and the bare head of my cock touched her between her cheeks, and she didn't even flinch. I reached forward and slipped a finger in her pussy from behind and she spread her legs slightly.
I unzipped all the way and slipped my cock between her legs from behind. I rubbed my bare cock the length of the outside of her pussy. She was shaved ,smooth and incredibly wet.
I slipped my cock into her wetness and pumped slowly with the crowd pushing against me. I came quickly, slipped out of her pussy, and zipped up, worked my way back through the crowd and left. What a concert!
!
Congratulations. People living in freedom have forgotten its value. Thank you for reminding us.
Thanks for letting us know! I am very happy for you, your family and country!
Zeyad, I'm so glad you voted in Amman today. I thought the turnout there would be huge, as I heard that a lot of families were going there for the duration.
This has been a historic and wonderful day for freedom loving people worldwide and a blow to the Wahabbi/Leftist coalition of the world who are gnashing their teeth in dismay and disbelief. They are filled with such hate that they have to make up conspiracy theories about food rations.
Tell us all, Zeyad, did they threaten you with food deprivation to get you to vote?
Also tell us how you like Jordan as a country as compared to home? I see you are a little worried about their Mukabarat...So free speech is not encouraged there?
I went to a concert with a bunch of friends. After the bands got into a few songs I spotted this hot girl. I introduced myself and we started talking. We started making out and feeling each other up.
I was hard instantly and I decided to unzip myself, and allow my cock to peek out of the top of my zipper. I reached under her skirt again as the crowd pushed and felt her bare ass cheek. While I felt under her skirt, I noticed that she had no panties.
I positioned my cock directly behind her pussy and lifted her skirt slightly as I put the zipper flap of my pants in her ass crack, and pushed forward with the crowd. She didn't turn around as I ground my body against her.
I lowered my body and the bare head of my cock touched her between her cheeks, and she didn't even flinch. I reached forward and slipped a finger in her pussy from behind and she spread her legs slightly.
I unzipped all the way and slipped my cock between her legs from behind. I rubbed my bare cock the length of the outside of her pussy. She was shaved ,smooth and incredibly wet.
I slipped my cock into her wetness and pumped slowly with the crowd pushing against me. I came quickly, slipped out of her pussy, and zipped up, worked my way back through the crowd and left. What a concert!
!
Funny how positive things affect the slimers, isn't it?
That election cost me a lot of sleep last night, even worse than all the previous nights watching for developments. Sunni sectarians are probably feeling very sorry for themselves about now. Just like Rachael.
Congratulations from Michigan! A moving and awe-inspiring day.
niggers dont know how to vote
Rickvid in Seattle said, [Rachel] eagerly wished for death, destruction, blood in the streets.
Not true - my heart is broken by what the Iraqis have suffered over the past 37 years, and including the past two years. Your US military, however, did actually bring death and destruction to Iraq; and your Halliburton etc continue to plunder her oil revenue, and Monsanto plans to mortgage Iraq's agriculture future prosperity. I cede to none in my admiration of the courage of Iraqis; may God bless every Iraqi, from the oldest to the youngest, and deliver them from their oppressors.
The more CNN and Bushites crow and posture, the more bitter and terrible the insurgent backlash is likely to be.
Bobby - Virginia, USA said, We Are All Iraqis Now.
Huh? When was your house reduced to rubble by invaders' bombs? How many of your relatives have been raided at night by foreign soldiers in full body armour, unable to speak your language? Where are your desecrated holy places? You have electricity 24/7, cheap petrol, security - don't belittle the Iraqis' achievements with your fatuous, stupid comments.
Rachel,
I was hoping you would answer my question from the previous thread about where you got the 4.8% turnout figure.
Best regards
PeteS, I thought I had. I was including exiles. Eg, in the UK - ISTR - only 1/5 of those eligible to vote actually registered to vote. If they didn't register, they couldn't vote.
'Once the joy of the moment has passed, I have only fear'
For a nation that has been so traumatised, whose infrastructure and social fabric has been wrecked by a quarter century of tyranny, war, invasion and economic blockade, burying the past was never going to be easy.
Yesterday's election in Iraq should have been a defining moment. For two generations of Iraqis, casting a democratic ballot presented a fitting way to end the cruelty and dictatorship of the Saddam Hussein years. Many in the west will instinctively judge the credibility of Iraq's election by the extent to which it met democratic standards: what was voter turnout like - particularly in Sunni areas - and did the level of violence and bloodshed undermine the process? But Iraqis will judge this election by another standard: does it have a practical and political use in resolving the crisis in the country, and fast?
... a 20-year-old engineering student from Baghdad, talked about one of the most under-reported aspects of life in Iraq - the epidemic of kidnappings of middle-class Iraqis.
Iraq is still a place of fear for its people. And it is full of fears for the British and US governments, too - the fear that the insurgency will increase in intensity; the fear that Iran will extend its influence in the country; the fear that Shia domination of the government will lead to civil conflict; fear that that the troops will be there for years.
This will be a defining year in Iraq, and a long and painful one for the Iraqi people.
Yes, it is great that the Iraqis have the opportunity to cast a vote and to have some say in who makes up a puppet government (do you REALLY think that the US will say 'OK' if a new Government says 'Actually - we would like you to leave now...'; but what the people would like MORE than this is:
-An electricity supply that operates for more than 2 hours a day
-A reliable water supply
-Reasonable security to go about their lives without the risk of being killed or harassed
-The prospect of being able to be educated, qualified and to work
-Freedom to practise their religion in freedom and without fear
I am no supporter of Saddam, but all of these things were in place in his regime; and if the US wants any sort of popular support or legitimacy from the international community, then they had damned well better make sure that they are in place soon! They have had TWO YEARS to sort this out. There are no excuses left.
AND this sort of thing is not going to help their image.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/progr...n_4/
4216853.stm
It is theft and embezzlement, and there has been a lot of it about.
I am not trying to belittle the courage of Iraqis who turned out to vote. I am proud of them. But if the US think that they have produced a model arab state, then they are sorely wrong. They have produced a powder keg that is likely to go off in their face, where no such powder keg previously existed.
a rumor voiced by Abed that Iraqis who don't vote will have their monthly food rations taken away.
Whether or not true, this intimidating rumour has not been denied by either the Iraqi interim government or the US occupiers, and may dramatically have affected the vote. I am concerned by reports that some people may have put blank ballot papers in the ballot box, so that they won't have their food rations withdrawn. I would like assurance that these blank ballot papers are not completed later, during the count, in favour of the US' preferred candidate(s). This is the sort of thing that the international observers should take care of but God knows where they are or how much "observing" they are doing.
Sorry. As my link didn't work, here is the story I was referring to. It's from the BBC- hardly a mouthpiece of the insurgents... And it makes uncomfortable reading for Mr Paul Bremer...
Iraq reconstruction funds missing
The missing $8.8bn is more than 40% of Iraq's oil revenues
Almost $9bn (Ł4.7bn) of Iraqi oil revenue is missing from a fund set up to reconstruct the country.
The BBC's File On 4 programme has learnt that out of over $20bn raised in oil revenues during US-led rule, the use of $8.8bn is unaccounted for.
In one case, auditors say the key to a safe holding millions of dollars was kept in an open backpack in an office.
"There was insufficient internal control to assure that money was spent for the benefit of the Iraqis, as the UN Security Council resolution mandated," said the auditors' chief of staff, Ms Ginger Cruz.
"We contend that since the CPA was in control and did have a responsibility to be an effective steward of those monies, that it was to be expected that there was more supervision of what happened to that money," she said.
Even allowing for the chaos in the aftermath of war, the auditors still believe the management of the money should have been a great deal tighter.
An earlier auditors' report from last year revealed evidence of wholesale carelessness with large amounts of cash.
On one occasion, $1.4bn had to be transported to a bank in three helicopters, as it weighed 14 tons, but no deposit slip was obtained when it was paid in.
The CPA has also come under attack for failing to prevent widespread fraud.
One US company is accused of massively inflating its profits by setting up sham companies to send fake invoices which the coalition paid.
Others are alleged to have demanded dubious commissions which then came out of Iraqi funds.
Even some Coalition officials are said to have openly demanded bribes of up to $300,000 in cash.
File On 4 reporter Gerry Northam explained: "Many Iraqis are angry at the way the Coalition handled funds, particularly the money from their own oil, and especially where inexplicable amounts ended up in the hands of foreign businesses."
Claude Hankes-Drielsma, a former British advisor to the Iraqi Governing Council, which worked alongside the Coalition, said the lack of control of funds was a further blow to the United States.
"It is most unfortunate, given that the liberation of Iraq was a great achievement. It was recognised as such by the Iraqi people, but the subsequent handling of events was a disaster.
"It was such a key moment and a great opportunity was lost by the way it was handled."
In response to the report, the former head of the coalition, Ambassador Paul Bremer, said the auditors had failed to understand the context in which the Authority was operating.
Western accounting standards could not be applied in the midst of a war, he said.
Listen to this edition of File On 4 on BBC Radio 4 on T
@Rachel
I was including exiles. Eg, in the UK - ISTR - only 1/5 of those eligible to vote actually registered to vote. If they didn't register, they couldn't vote.
There were 1.2 million expatriate Iraqis eligible to vote, equal to about 8.5% of the 14 million registered Iraqis at home. If the turnout in Iraq was 60% (the low end of the estimates, I believe), and not a single expatriate registered or voted, it could not have affected the overall turnout by more than 60% of 8.5%, i.e. 5%.
Your figure of 4.8% total turnout implies that the expatriate vote dragged the overall total down by 55% ... an impossibility even if nobody voted. However, expatriates did vote in spite of serious logistical difficulties.
Congratulations with probably one of the first real democratic elections ever held in arabic country.
I admire the courage of the Iraqi people who proved to be very tough against the threat of terror.
It also says like in Afghanistan that even people with a long traumatic history of oppression and violence are willing to take a stand for freedom and democracy.
The longing for democracy is universal.
you have all the reason to be proud.
There will be many difficulties ahead on the path to a better society, but this tremendous achievement must help.
Iraq plunged into new democratic water and it was able to swim at least the first (very important) miles.
By the way some statistics from the Dutchled provence of al muthanna:
people who voted: at least 70 but more likely 80 or 90 percent.
(Some of them walked a long way through the desert to reach the polling stations).
violent incidents: zero.
It just couldn't be better.
"This is the sort of thing that the international observers should take care of but God knows where they are or how much "observing" they are doing."
One knows things are going well when Rachel's bitchin’ ‘bout how little she knows.
Rachel, a twit in London wrote:
"I am concerned by reports that some people may have put blank ballot papers in the ballot box"
And which reports are these, O wise one?
"I would like assurance that these blank ballot papers are not completed later"
The integrity of the Iraqi elections will be safeguarded by the Iraqi electoral commission, whose members risked their lives to ensure a free vote. Who the hell are you to demand assurances? You may be desperate for any snippet of nonsense that will invalidate this election, but the Iraqi people will judge it for themselves.
"Who the hell are you to demand assurances?" Finally, Rachel, someone has gotten down to the heart of the matter. You don't count, and neither do I. So continue your illegal war, anti-americanism drivel all you want, but Iraqis have spoken quite clearly to the world, and you ought to have the grace as a human being to accept their will even though it doesn't fit with your warped world view.
There is nothing left for you, Rachel. Iraq is going to be OK even though it will take some time. Iraqis proved that yesterday to the whole world; so have some of the courage and dignity Iraqis showed and walk away.
Congratulations!
I would just like to comfort the pessimists on the Board with the idea that the low-quality, dodgy procedure or American/Iranian puppitude of the people who have just been voted in is secondary to the established right to get rid of them and to improve the political system peacefully. I don't think there is a democracy in existence that hasn't had its share of dodgy elections or dodgy politicians, but it is at least a system that carries within it the seeds of its own improvement.
The big issue for Iraqi society is whether a large, prosperous middle class in tandem with the rule of law will arise. These are the conditions that enable what success democracy has enjoyed.
Ali asks me who the hell I am to demand assurances. Ali, reflect a moment: to borrow a sentiment rather over-used by the Americans posting to Iraqi blogs - some of my countrymen have died in order to depose your former dictator and, now, to safeguard your elections. My taxes pay their salaries, help equip them. I am not asking for your gratitude; but, although I did not (and do not) wish them to join them US illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq, I am not prepared to overlook my countrymen's sacrifices.
Which Ali are you, by the way?
Second part of answer to Ali (who asks which reports are these). I have just posted this, as a new "thread" on the Radio 4, international news, message board. (Posting as stormypetrel.)
On his blog [Raed in the Middle], Raed Jarrar relays a report from his brother, Khalid, of a rumour - which, to my knowledge, has not been denied by either the interim government or the US - that "if you didn't go to vote, the government will cut your monthly food rations ...." Poor Iraqi families are dependent upon food rations, so they cannot afford to take the risk of disbelieving the rumour.
'"I will go and drop a blank ballot, I just want my family's food rations", a friend of my brother Khalid told him a couple of days ago in Baghdad.'
To me, given the context, this is entirely credible. So I would like copper-bottomed assurance from the authorities - where ARE the international observers, by the way? - that blank ballot forms will not be subsequently completed, during the counting, in favour of the US' preferred candidate(s). Who is accountable enough to give this assurance?
The Iraqi electoral commission is appointed by the US occupiers. Need I say more?
I wish Zeyad had more time to weigh in on a lot of political comments by all of us foreigners who come here and tell everyone just how it is in his country even though many couldn't even pick Iraq out on a map.
Zeyad doesn't have the time because he's busy building his country. Most of us are busy not contributing to our own societies. Our own countries could use all this supposed knowledge to do positive things for our own countries, but doing that would be too hard. Iraqis on the other hand are all working hard on their country while we all sit on our butts letting our own go to crap.
Zeyad , kifak ? Go check ur email
Rachel, the time has come for you to enter the dustbin of history. Take care not to bump your head as you crawl in, and please don't neglect to close the lid.
"PeteS, I thought I had. I was including exiles. Eg, in the UK - ISTR - only 1/5 of those eligible to vote actually registered to vote. If they didn't register, they couldn't vote.
Rachel, a Brit in London"
And how is this different from any other democracy? England, France, America, the list goes on and on.
119 nations out of 191 now have some type of representative government. Read 'wm and weep, twit.
You and the other Democrats against democracy are just shit out of luck. Iraq will settle down over the next year, when the Constitution is voted on there will be 80 to 90% turnout and nobody will have to step over human body parts to vote. What will you do then? Start supporting the Mullahs in Iran? Look around, I'm sure there is a mass murderer somewhere that needs your help. Better hurry. Freedom is on the march!
Rachel,
All of Iraq celebrates. All the world celebrates. You however must see a conspiracy in everything. Al-Sistani forced the early vote. The party he backs is looking to win a substantial majority. Yet you claim the Iraqis were forced to vote for a puppet government.
Perhaps you would like to tell Iraq that Sistani is noting but a US stooge.
In fact, if you are willing, I will buy you a plane ticket so you can walk through Baghdad proclaiming this....
Rachel,
Isn't it amazing that none of the Iraqi bloggers know nothing of this 'food ration cutting'. You quote some guy who doesn't even directly know anyone in Iraq. At best, he is giving third-hand knowledge.
Yet, in your mind, he is more credible than our Iraqi bloggers.
Grow up.
The Iraqi ambassador to the Netherlands stated this weekend in a nationwide newspaper interview that he is very much disappointed by the lack of support for the new democratic Iraq from western leftwing groups:"the left (once promotors of worldwide communism) doesn't believe in change anymore they've become reactionaries: the whole world must stay as it is now with all the dictators and massmurderers alike.
They call it "international law": every tyrant is allowed to murder and rape his own people, only if china/ russia or france agree totally something may be done about it.
That's not international law: that's in almost all cases a free game for massmurderers (you just have to stick to your own people).
They went after 1989 from hard belief in stalinistic changes to not believing in positive changes at all.
They desperately hope Iraq will fail just to prove their point.
It's extremely cynical and racist as a matter of fact.
It's here were they align with arab nationalists.
The ambassador was surprised that he got more support from rightwing christian religious groups for Iraqi freedom than from his former allies "the liberal elite".
Iraq yesterday proved they not only want democratic change but deserve every bit of it and our total support as well.
The truth about what really happened in the "elections" is begining to emerge. What a surprise.
Read it carefully, sheep. This is the authorized story from Bushitler's Zionist masters.
Impeach Bushitler!
Bring the Troops Home Now!
Power to the People!
Congratulations and Best Wishes!
We now enter the hardest part of Iraq's journey to freedom. The Rachels of the world see that Lovers of freedom and the human experience won't be stopped by lies, propaganda, bullets and bombs. So their logical next step is to co-opt the process. Destroy it from within, so to speak. Democracies are very susceptible to FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) tactics.
"In questions of power, then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution."
--Thomas Jefferson
Iraq needs a STRONG constitution. The smaller the document, the stronger. The US Constitution is 2 pages long. It lists the powers of the Congress, which is why it's such a short document. Any power not listed, belongs to the citizens. That is what makes the US constitution so powerful. compare it to the proposed EU constitution, which is 3500 pages long and guaranteed to produce Tryanny.
Congratulations Iraq! You are healing. The strength of your people's convictions (and the bravery demonstrated by your voters) will heal well beyond your borders. I am proud to be an American who has supported this process and proud beyond words for our soldiers and allies who have sacrificed everything for freedom. Who knows ... maybe even Rachel will find room to secretly celebrate. Perhaps she'll shave her armpits/legs or something along those happy lines ?
Rotsmell;
Prove you are not Queen of the Space Unicorns.
"has not been denied by" is a way of saying that the stupid rations rumour isn't worth the breath or paper needed to respond to it.
HH;
The BBC is hardly an insurgent mouthpiece? Opinions differ, I assure you.
Hi,
Like most people I watched the election with baited breath, and was releived that everything I believed, based on plain logic, was true. I've lived through amazing times -
- the Berlin Wall falling, despite assurances from the Rachels of this world (a large number of whom seem to work for our Channel 4 it seems..ho hum)
- the election in Afghanistan (despite assurances etc etc etc ho hum)
- a first election in Iraq (despite assurances etc etc ho hum).
What is most amazing is that we are seeing in a right wing prez of the USA the kinda stuff us liberal activists wanted 30yrs ago. After the collapse of the stalemate with the USSR (thanks Ronald ..who would have thought I'd be saying that now, because back then when Reagan pushed the Soviets to economic collapse I just didn't get it at all) the West did nothing for years to address the dodgy deals we had made during that time (thanks Bill...not!) I think my fellow liberals have gone senile if they don't see it.
You cannot bemoan dictaterships & also whinge when someone does something about it eh! (And perhaps lets now put the 'stalking horse' of the wmd issue in its context now shall we - THAT was always the excuse for the real agenda all along).
But I guess thats the problem isn't it, some people would rather choke than admit what has happened - despite everything horrible so far - is A GOOD THING & the prospects for the middle east may suddenly be much brighter.
How about the influence of a prosperous democracy in Iraq....would I be ambitous in suggesting that means goodnight Saudi Arabia/Iran without a shot being fired..?
And if Bush pulls off an Israeli/Palestinian deal too, I can see Rachel checking into a looney bin to escape the dreadful truth...!?
Good luck to the Iraqis. Hope the pressure comes off the Sunni so they can play a part (as an aside, am interested to know what the commentators that rubbished Bush's post war actions - ie NOT picking Sunni replacements for Saddam like Powell wanted - are feeling like today..?)
A very small step on a long long road.
I'd like to endorse what John in the Netherlands said.
And Zeyad, I think you have been very brave over these times, more than I might have been in your position. When its all over, & safe, you deserve to be honoured.
Mike ( a Brit nothing like Rachel....)
Asha al Iraq Asha al Iraq, Asha Al Iraq
Congratulations to the inspiring people of Iraq.
Congratulations,
Now the hard work begins. Clearing out the insurgents, unifying Iraq and securing the blessings of your liberty.
I second most of the positive comments above.
Thirty six, or more, Iraqis were martyred in their cause(s) on Election Day. Yet, these killings were part of a great military defeat for the insurgents. Millions of Iraqis voted, set up and ran the election process, and guarded the election AND survived. Thousands of polling places were dispersed around Iraq. There were millions of targets and the Iraqi and MLF security forces had to try to guard them all. The insurgents had the initiative: they could choose in secret on which targets to concentrate. They threatened the worst and THEY FLOPPED.
Unfortunately, that was only one day. The war will continue.
Many people have questioned the extent to which the election will erode (mostly Sunni Arab) Iraqi political support for the insurgency. Perhaps such reservations are justified.
I hope that the election will, instead, raise the morale of those Iraqis who have always opposed the insurgents and that it will invigorate their efforts against the insurgency.
The American left is, even now, promoting the "pull out" agenda, and seeing conspiracies everywhere. To some bloggers this whole election did not even happen, but is a staged event completely. Actors for the cameras. Wow.
The Rachels of the world, yet again, shove sticks into their eyes so they simply cannot see the plain truth. "I choose to be blind rather than see something I do not agree with."
Iraqis have braved so much, and to have pathetic losers like Teddy (hic) Kennedy and John (I have committed war crimes) Kerry casting such aspersions on them is truely swine cast shit before pearls, to twist the metaphor.
Good on Iraq; the tyrants of the middle east and their fat comfortable western supporters tremble, and wet their pants.
Rachel writes:
"The Iraqi electoral commission is appointed by the US occupiers. Need I say more?"
Another one of your brazen lies. If this were true, do you really think that over 100 political lists, from every shade of opinion, including monarchists, Islamists and Communists, would have participated?
The Iraqi Electoral Commission are brave, decent Iraqis who have risked, and in many cases sacrificed, their lives to give Iraqis the opportunity to vote in a free election. You are a sick, sick person to accuse these heroes of being US stooges.
Do you ever say anything that doesn't read like propaganda for Zarqawi? You share his views about the election being a fraud, about the Iraqis participating being American stooges. Do you disgree with him about anything?
All respect to those who voted Zeyad.......it is a great surprise and a pleasant one to see that so many people want to choose for themselves.........I am very pleased Iraq had a National Day when people could vote with their feet............it will give a sense of solidarity and maybe it will give people some sense of 'ownership'.........it is the first step on a long road........but it as the man said the longest journey begins with a single step
For a nation that has been so traumatised, whose infrastructure and social fabric has been wrecked by a quarter century of tyranny, war, invasion and economic blockade, burying the past was never going to be easy.
Yes Zimbabwe is such a mess.....
-- "One should start from the 'Head' down, not the other way around".--
I could argue that point.
Rachel writes:
"Ali asks me who the hell I am to demand assurances. Ali, reflect a moment: to borrow a sentiment rather over-used by the Americans posting to Iraqi blogs - some of my countrymen have died in order to depose your former dictator and, now, to safeguard your elections. My taxes pay their salaries, help equip them. I am not asking for your gratitude; but, although I did not (and do not) wish them to join them US illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq, I am not prepared to overlook my countrymen's sacrifices."
Don't bother to answer her Ali. She is now totally incoherent. If the Brits are participating in an "illegal invasion and occupation" as she claims, no British person has any right to assurances about the conduct of the election in Iraq. In fact, we should simply withdraw our troops and pay reparations.
As a Brit, I'm proud of ALL the multinational forces who have made this election possible, whether British, American, Italian, Polish or Ukranian. And I'm proud of our PM who made the decision to participate. Tony Blair, perhaps, has a right to ask questions about the election. Not Rachel, the traitor, who stabs our boys in the back at every opportunity by spouting propaganda for the Iraqi insurgents.
Homer, your latest remarks about me are defamatory, demonstrably untrue and actionable. If I ever find out who you are, I might just sue you.
Rachel, where do you see the right to sue in your much heralded Koran?
You run true to form every time. Now threatening a lawsuit for expressing an opinion. In America, opinions are not actionable, they are protected. What a true twit you are.
Anonymous (01.31.05 - 9:15 am) said, Isn't it amazing that none of the Iraqi bloggers know nothing of this 'food ration cutting'.
You've only just arrived, haven't you? You haven't back-filled in on your knowledge of Iraqi blogs. Riverbend refers to the food ration-intimidation, for instance.
You quote some guy who doesn't even directly know anyone in Iraq. At best, he is giving third-hand knowledge.
Oh ignorant anonymous, Raed Jarrar is one of the Family in Baghdad (Jarrar) blog.
I win.
Rickvid in Seattle: Homer says that he is "from London". Therefore the law of England and Wales applies. And here an opinion - if defamatory - certainly counts as slander/libel and is therefore actionable.
You Americans should get some education.
Rachel,
Iraq elections proceed well.
You lose.
Congratulations Zeyad! I'm so very happy for all of you. The voter turnout is awe-inspiring...especially under these circumstances. Just compare this to the turnout in some of the Western democracies where people care too little to invest the couple of minutes required to cast a vote... I hope your countrymen and -women will continue to feel passionately about this for a long time
"what the people would like MORE than this is:
-An electricity supply that operates for more than 2 hours a day
-A reliable water supply
-Reasonable security to go about their lives without the risk of being killed or harassed"
These are all security problems, and they can be settled only by an elected government which will build up the training and equipment of the security forces. It is up to the Iraqi voters to select the government they think will do this best. Their judgement is likely to be better than anybody else's.
I'm sure these problems were at the front of their minds when deciding which party to vote for.
the Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP) headed by warlord Masoud Barzani has prevented voting by Assyrian (also known as Chaldean and Syriac) Christians of the Nineveh Plain in northern Iraq.
According to a series of reports from inside Iraq, the KDP effectively blocked the delivery of ballot boxes to six major Assyrian towns and villages in the Plains around Mosul including Baghdeda, Bartilla, Karemlesh, Shekhan, Ain Sifne and Bahzan. ... The resulting unavailability of ballot boxes affected up to 100,000 Assyrian voters and tens of thousands of Yezidis, Shabak, and Turkman voters. The outright denial of voting rights to Assyrians and other non-Kurdish minorities culminates several months of intimidation, beatings, beheadings, burnings, and mutilations of Assyrian Christians in the Nineveh Plain
Free and fair election? - I think not. Hey President Shrub, what do you think about Christians being prevented from voting? Silly me, how could I forget: you don't care a button for Christians unless they happen to be American.
Angry Assyrian Americans have begun to ask what the US administration's response will be to this attack on democracy in Iraq. Assyrian Americans make up 85-90% of all Iraqi Americans. Due to disproportionate persecution, nearly half of all Iraqi Assyrians live outside the country. One enraged activist noted "Assyrians have been the most fervent proponents of secular democracy and pluralism in Iraq."
Actually, we may find that Shrub doesn't even care about American Christians, if they are also Iraqi. Not white, you see.
"If I were an insurgent I would be really bitterly disappointed at what happened yesterday," a U.S. diplomat said.
"I certainly wouldn't conclude I should surrender. I would conclude that I have to show I'm still a player.
"The Zarqawis and the wannabe Zarqawis are all about violence and all about chaos. They enjoy what they do and they're good at it," he said.
Stringent security measures on election day, when millions of voters shrugged off their fears and streamed to the polls, foiled the insurgents' most deadly weapon -- huge truck and car bombs -- by banning traffic.
But now that ban has been lifted, the insurgents are likely to try to stage a spectacular and bloody reprisal against Iraqis who ignored their threats of a polling day bloodbath.
Despite the security lockdown on Sunday, the militants killed 35 people, mainly with pedestrian suicide bombers attacking polling queues.
"The fact that they can organize 10 suicide bombers to strike in a four-hour period shows their huge capacity. No one should underestimate their ability," said Mustafa Alani, security expert at the Dubai-based Gulf Research Center.
Iraq's former U.S. governor, Paul Bremer hailed the election as a big success but said he expected more violence.
Zeyad, please take care. One election does not a democracy make.
Riverbend is the eldest daughter of a Saddam-appointed ambassador, and a high ranking Ba'athist, to a western country during the eighties.
Raed Jarrar is the eldest son of a Palestinian refugee who was driven out of the Gulf after Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, and granted asylum in Iraq by Saddam's regime.
Both persons do not count in this historic day and will instead make it to the dustbin of history.
Insider from Baghdad - you are Shia, I take it?
Threatening a libel suit. Impressive rhetorical device, that. Should the threatened person need representation, let me know. That would be a fun case to handle.
One wonders how she spends her time when not angrily banging her fists or head against the newspaper spread over her table, cat hair flying with each mighty blow, as she reads through crimson eyes about this event, worrying with every word that the [insert catchy First Form insult to the coalition forces from dusty posters saved from latest protest march] may be validated in any way.
Congratulations to those who voted. Regardless of one's politics, it was an incredibly brave act.
No I am a Sunni from the Zayuna district in Baghdad, originally from Mosul, and I personally know both the people I have mentioned.
And pray what does my sectarian/religious affiliation have to do with my information? Or is that how things work in your country? So you are Muslim, I take it Rachel?
I have noticed that Rachel likes to prey upon religious differences to try to stir emotions... i.e. CHRISTIANS can't vote in Iraq... dosn't this make you angry? Add the other incidents that people have brought up and I come to one conclusion:
She sounds like a very angry individual.
Rachel, please drop the religous overtones. Trying to stir hatred of one group against the other is unconscionable.
Zeyad,
The Iraqi people have humbled the free world, and lit the flame of hope for all those still living in the darkness of tyranny and oppression. I have not been so deeply moved since the fall of the Berlin Wall. This was a great day for Iraq, for Freedom, and for the world. Congratulations to you and to all the brave people of Iraq yearning to build a better life.
Deep regards,
Homer, your latest remarks about me are defamatory, demonstrably untrue and actionable. If I ever find out who you are, I might just sue you.
Rachel, a Brit in London | Email | Homepage | 01.31.05 - 11:59 am | #
You can't without suing Zeyad ........do check your legal position before you expound dearie
You Americans should get some education.
Rachel, a Brit in London |
Racist comment Rachel based on generalisations............not a good little Guardian Reader are we today ?
Elections are a first step to democracy (but a very important one).
The further framework is complicated and needs a lot of negociations between the groups that gained power but the rewards are (though sometimes only visible in the long run) immense.
Dictatorships are simpler in structure but also in the end much more unstable and ineffective.
If a democracy is set up the right way it will be (eventually) like a solid rock and it's citizens will live in freedom and prosperity.
It now depends on the moderation and rationality of especially the shias and kurds.
Will they give a hand to moderate sunni's while at the same time crushing down effectively the terrorists.
By the way: the sunni's that didn't vote get new chances to participate later this year with voting for the constitution and a definitive parliament.
That's the beauty of (a well functioning) democracy: if your guy doesn't do his job right, you just vote for the other guy next time.
Like this in the long run only politicians and political deeds that serves the people in the right way will survive. That's why we in the west could make that much progress through the ages.
We got the best political selection-procedures.
Because the democratic system is invented to serve the people not the other way around.
Therefore the law of England and Wales applies. And here an opinion - if defamatory - certainly counts as slander/libel and is therefore actionable.
You Americans should get some education.
Rachel, a Brit in London | Email | Homepage | 01.31.05 - 12:09 pm | #
http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts...996/
1996031.htm
http://www.swarb.co.uk/index.shtml
I hope your countrymen and -women will continue to feel passionately about this for a long time
GM from Germany | Email | Homepage | 01.31.05 - 12:21 pm | #
Sonnenschein ist zurueckgekehrt....... feel passionately about Toi aussi GM ?
Congratulations to Zeyad and to all Iraqis who supported the elections and voted! And special congratulations to the brave poll workers.
Democracy isn't easy. Both winners and losers have to believe in the system enough to accept the outcome. (Something that a certain party in the USA seems to have momentarily forgotten...) It will take a few weeks to determine the results of the election. People will need time to get used to the new way of thinking. I hope that both the winners and losers will be gracious and put the interests of the whole country first.
Now and always, Zeyad, you have enthusiastic best wishes from at least one friendly American in California.
GM..........
Edel & Starck, oder Thomas Heinze mit Nina Kronjäger ???
"The fact that they can organize 10 suicide bombers to strike in a four-hour period shows their huge capacity. No one should underestimate their ability," said Mustafa Alani, security expert at the Dubai-based Gulf Research Center.
Yes Rachel and one of them seems to have had Downs Syndrome.........now wasn't that caring of his handlers ?
"Threatening a libel suit. Impressive rhetorical device, that. Should the threatened person need representation, let me know. That would be a fun case to handle."
Thanks MF!!! If it ever got to Court you would find it one of your easier cases, given that the plaintiff has posted umpteen messages giving aid and comfort to the enemies of the United Kingdom.
BTW, the recent poster Ali is a friend of mine, of Iranian extraction, who used my computer at work to get in a couple of messages. He is not Ali of 'Free Iraqi' fame.
http://crymeariverii.blogspot.com/
Rachel, you dim bulb, I know you are both from Merry Old England, you twit. I was pointing up a contrast. Perhaps you are familiar with the First Amendment to our Constitution regarding freedom of speech. (You all certainly have no regard for the second amendment's intent or action, I understand.) Opinions are not slanderous or libelous. Such a numbskull.
Picture of Rachels On The Street
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/..._Spain&
only=yes
Now that the voting is over and has gone very well with minimal violence, especially compared to the bellowing threats of the pig vomit terrorits and the trembling fears of thier useful idiot western supporters, with high voter turnout, despite the lies of some posters here and the constant drumbeat of doom and gloom of the fat assed western media, I wonder how many of the folks who boycotted these "rigged, puppet, phoney" elections and did not get a voice in will come out and try to insist that they be included?
Hey, the rules are made by those who show up. The Johnny come latelies can just eat dust until the next elections.
Rick, pathetic isn't it? These cankers on the ass of humanity still believe that democracy and freedon are the problems.
A refutation of the thugs and the Rachels who support them: http://www.coxandforkum.com/
Why though the terrorists promised rivers of blood they only could kill around 40 people. (Let me be clear 40 too many and they all deserve a statue as true "martyrs of freedom" but it's nothing compared to what the islamic fascists promised).
I think it is because:
1 Real effective cooperation between foreign and iraqi troops combined with clearing crucial area's from cars and with it the (most deadly) carbombs.
2 the inability of the terrorists to organise and orchestrate large concentrated bombing campaigns.
It seems that in this last thing the retaking of fallujah in november played a big part in this: This city was one gigantic stockpile of weapons/bombs and not to underestimate (baathist/al qaida) organisationcapabilities.
If fallujah wasn't reconquered it would have been in my opinion at least 400 or even maybe 4000 killed.
I hope that crucial parts of this very succesfull security operation can be transferred to daily Iraqilife: like checking all cars that want to enter big Iraqi cities.
The kurds seem to do that already where possible to prevent terror intrusions in their territory.
With succesfull security operation I meant how it went yesterday not the attack on fallujah. That was an unique (though necessary) case.
Let's hope it stays that way and no other Iraqi city will be ever that invested with terror.
Lessons learned from yesterday can help to reach that goal.
Zeyad
congradulation on the vote
alan
"Now and always, Zeyad, you have enthusiastic best wishes from at least one friendly American in California."
Greetings, Mary in LA - that makes two of us, at least!
I think Rachel is a masochist, here for the sole purpose of goading the rest here into heaping derision upon her. Whatever she needs to say to upset people is exactly what she does say. I say give here what she wants - whatever floats her boat, as they say...
When the sun rises today, things may look the same, but it is a new Iraq.
A way to deal with Rachel: simply substitute "my absentee/ineffective father" for every reference she makes to a beneficial governing body (America, Bush, military allies in Iraq, Iraqi voters) and you will have the psychological motivator for her pathetic bids for attention/validation. Rachel ought to know that today, even in North Korea, Marxism is practically nonexistent, but she doesn't. Oh well. I declare a personal moratorium on Rachel. She's a drag on an otherwise happy occasion.
The courage of the Iraqi people is awe inspiring. Congratulations and best wishes.
Jon
New Jersey
Gratz Zeyad, may the future of the iraq be bright. I have doubts, but i hope the sunni will integrate in the peace process.
"Homer, your latest remarks about me are defamatory, demonstrably untrue and actionable. If I ever find out who you are, I might just sue you.
Rachel, a Brit in London"
You're an idiot Rachel. So sue me!
In ANY jurisdiction's civil laws, in order to sue for slander or libel, the plaintive must show at LEAST intent to damage a person's reputation, if not actual damage. Since you go by the nom de plume RACHEL, no one knows your actual identity (e.g. it is impossible to damage the reputation of an unknown person).
Perhaps you should obtain an education yourself, and spare us your uncontrolled and racist accusations.
Zeyad,
I'm so very happy for you. It's been a rough road over the last year and I pray all will be well for you in 2005.Take very good care of yourself and perhaps we'll all meet at a Baghdad Cafe in 2010!
Solicitor in London re the following
http://www.nswscl.org.au/journal.../57/
Potter.html
Richard Potter is a partner with Phillips Fox in Sydney, specialising in defamation and media law.
"On its own, abuse is not defamatory as no one actually thinks less of a person simply because they have been abused. However, accusations can be levelled at a person which may well be defamatory, fuelled by the anger created by the troll's destructive intentions. "
Whereas I would have thought that Rachel's abusive remarks would make her case hard to win, and her claims that accusing others of being fascists or liars etc might be considered defamatory, I was concerned by the quote from the above paper. Am certainly coming across others who abuse as Rachel does and then threaten legal action. One argues that he has notified the webmaster and is commencing action. As Potter points out it would be extremely difficult to "find" the correspondent and Potter agrees? with it is Rick? who says that it would have to be Zeyad.
if you have time solicitor it would be useful if you or other solicitors would be able to assist us with advice as to how to protect Zeyad. On the other hand would'nt like anything that made his postion more problematic.
nevertheless there is no doubt that trolls have a common agenda and a common method. Paranoid I know but the emerging similarity in appraoch to legal action is unnerving.
Rachel:
Please do not let these hateful sheep intimidate you. They are pitiful little creatures who attempt to win the approval of their masters by attacking anyone who refuses to join them in their self-imposed slavery.
There are many of us who truly care for humanity and work relentlessly to get the truth out to the masses. Never think that we have no effect. Day by day, it becomes harder for the Bushes, Blairs, and their satraps to deny reality. Already the truth about this "election" circus is becoming known.
Courage, Rachel! There are many who respect your efforts and silently cheer you on. WE SHALL OVERCOME!
Oh, Bush Lied, if only your encouragement of that twittering moron were silent! But you probably cannot tell the difference as the entire world is full of your voice, not to mention ego.
Pathetic.
Bless you for your kind words, Bush Lied.
Thinking ahead: if in the coming days and weeks, it were to become apparent that the US cannot after all claim the Iraqi election as the "success" they first thought - eg if a significant proportion of the ballots cast were either blank or spoiled - then my guess is that the US will set one community against another. That is their "style", their "track record". I think that the US might support the Shia in a pogrom of Sunni. They would have to do this covertly - like the US covertly supported Saddam during the Iran-Iraq war - because of all the Sunni-governed countries surrounding Iraq.
I hope that I am wrong.
Ros, you are a pompous, self-important, mischievous witch. The idea that Zeyad needs any protection from me is completely ludicrous.
Worrying further solicitor, as the various forms and sectors of the blogosphere evolve big powerful nodes are emerging. there are of course many thousands of small sites, part time office in the spare room in the house so to speak. I see these Iraqi sites for example, as like this, very limited resources and run by people who have many other important time consuming activities in their lives. So while there are blocking options none are that effective I gather, other than registering their correspondents and vetting comments before posting. I think that being forced to do that would probably close these sites down or at least end the comments aspect, thereby seriously reducing their reach and influence. And what is very different about these one man band Iraqi sites is their reach and influence despite their relative low cost etc. Iraq the Model is currently certainly being targetted by those who opposes their view. As the importance and prominence of the site grows then the opposition to it becomes more organised and sophisticated.
There is certainly a growing usage of legal means by western "civil society organisations" to achieve their agendas, either by finding new meanings in national law or by appeals to "international law" or international tribunals.
Maybe my thoughts are a bit of a reach, but nevertheless it concerns me that there are these forces coming into play. It would be a tragedy if this outburst of anarchic and truly global chatter across the world was pulled into the control of the usual establishment forces, where money decided who had a voice, and the voices of individuals were silenced by the likes of Rachel, even though that may not be what she intends. Indeed what would Rachel do if she succeeded.
"Homer, your latest remarks about me are defamatory, demonstrably untrue and actionable. If I ever find out who you are, I might just sue you."
The problem is rachel is that you would have to sue Zeyad. or the ISP. So if it was a throw away threat say so, don't leave the threat sitting there. Consider what you are saying. it is certainly your intent to threaten argument with you into silence.
Sigh - a little knowledge is a terribly annyoing thing.
Two initial problems with the silly threat:
1.Vis-a-vis "Homer":
Unless "Rachel" has an identifiable proprietary interest in her pseudonymous existence, she cannot sue for defamation. Think about it - the raison d'etre of any defamation suit is recovery for damages to reputation caused by false statements. No UK court (or American, as far as I know) has ever found that an anonymous person (who isn't Mark Twain or George Sand) has a reputation to damage. Yet more intriguing is the fact that the counterargument - that the proposed plaintiff does indeed have an "online" reputation gained by previous postings - makes the question of damages somewhat hilarious. From what I can glean, she is not held in high regard in this little community, evidence that would be highly relevant to a determination of damages. In other words, this is silly, bordering on malicious due to its frivolity.
2. Vis-a-vis Zeyad:
a. UK law provides a rather solid defense to defamation for those who have no control over the messages posted to a news medium site such as "Healing Iraq". Factor in the web service that hosts the site, and we are looking at a zero chance of collecting a farthing, dime or dinar.
b. Try serving him with papers. Just try. Then I might have some measure of respect for the potential plaintiff.
There are so many other problems with this silly concept that cannot be addressed (thankfully) in this medium. My professional advice? Relax and have a good laugh at the pitiful and hypocritical attempt to stifle conversation.
Insider from Baghdad, prepare to do some explaining to Riverbend.
Oh, yes - one more thing I had wanted to mention. Unlike the US, in most cases in the UK, loser pays costs. Let's leave aside the mirthful possibilities that having our little plaintiff legally tagged a "loser" affords. This wonderful little tool is designed to prevent this type of frivolity, and thus is the reason many would be happy to defend against it. It's easy money.
"That is their "style", their "track record". I think that the US might support the Shia in a pogrom of Sunni."
You know nothing about our "track record". And your musings that a significant proportion of the ballots may be "blank or spoiled" are delusional rantings. Allegations that Iraqis would risk their lives to stand in line to post blank ballots is the apex of wishful thinking by your ilk. Those looking for anything that might cause the Iraqis to be drug back into the horror of oppression. You desire to chortle with malicious glee over any perceived obstruction of the newly-emerging democracy in Iraq.
You have an illness that can't be cured. Something in your nature should be horrified by reading your own posts.
MF - a solicitor in London: my advice to you is, don't go there. My brother is a partner in an international law firm in London; several of my friends and/or relatiaves are either barristers or partners in City law firms. I have an IQ of 147, and I was not born yesterday.
You sound like a loser in a down-at-heel practice in an impoverished borough touting for business. Back off, punk.
Courage, Rachel! There are many who respect your efforts and silently cheer you on. WE SHALL OVERCOME!
Bush Lied | Email | Homepage | 01.31.05 - 3:42 pm | #
I am so glad you wrote this.........I think it is essential that you continue your satirical postings..........Rachel needs to know that she is not alone in her hallucinatory world......that there are two of you is proof enough that the aberration is real
"You sound like a loser in a down-at-heel practice in an impoverished borough touting for business. Back off, punk.
Rachel, a Brit in London "
Then you should know better.
And if there was a legal platform for suing for libel/slander in these forums, you would have just proclaimed yourself the defendant with these defamatory statements.
Your brother must be proud. Living off the family dole are we? That's alright - I have a deluded sibling like that, too. It's not uncommon to have a high-achieving sibling care for one who has not, shall we say, done well for herself.
Godfrey v Demon Internet Limited
The Court held that ISPs that knowingly carry defamatory material and fail to remove it on request are liable as publishers. Demon could not avail itself of the innocent publication defence provided by the Defamation Act as it was put on notice of the posting. Demon appealed this decision and argued that Godfrey himself deliberately posted the inflammatory statements with a view to launching a vexatious defamation action against it. Demon claimed that this constituted flaming and provoked others to trade insults which Godfrey then claimed were defamatory. The action was settled for an undisclosed sum. Since August 2002, section 1 of the Defamation Act must be read subject to the Electronic Commerce (EU Directive) Regulations 2002. These Regulations are complex as they distinguish between an ISP acting as a mere conduit, and other more involved actions of an ISP such as caching and hosting. The Regulations grant immunity to ISPs who do not have actual knowledge of facts or circumstances from which illegal activity or information is apparent...
Thank you solicitor, you are reassuring. I recognise that my grasp of the above is limted, but it tells me 2 things, that the ISP's will fight, but on the other hand they settled. They can afford to do that. if some of our clever trolls get rolling then the Zeyad's can't afford to settle. I do not hide so i for example would not be lost in the ether of the web.
And I am conscious that I do along with many of us put fingers into action without making sure that my brain is engaged when provoked.
Votes for food.
Interpress Service News Agency
MF - a solicitor in London said, Living off the family dole are we? That's alright - I have a deluded sibling like that, too. It's not uncommon to have a high-achieving sibling care for one who has not, shall we say, done well for herself.
I have supported myself by working all my adult life, and I am still completely self-supporting. I don't believe that you are a solicitor at all - you are so "mouthy".
"Votes for food.
Interpress Service News Agency
Rachel, a Brit in London"
So we may presume these self-same "food-voters" were so happy to know they were going to get their ration of food next month, that they danced in the streets and cried at the poll boxes like Sam Hammorabi and other Iraqi bloggers have posted on their blogs?
http://hammorabi.blogspot.com/
Tammy, you are talking twaddle again.
With all due respect MF, no insult intended; Rachel, I've never known a "solicitor" that wasn't "mouthy".
"Tammy, you are talking twaddle again.
Rachel, a Brit in London "
I will of course have to engage a solicitor due to your defamatory statement.
MF- may I retain your services?
I appear to have touched a raw nerve. By the by, living off the dole does not make you "self-supporting."
Mouthy? That hurt. Going to send big brother after the London partner now? And most of us are in international firms now, so find another way to make this partner tremble.
I feel so small now, but this is too much fun.
Congratulations Zeyad on a successful election day. I have to say, it does make one proud. May things continue in the same vein.
And remember, people, don't feed the trolls! That's the only way to make them go away.
Below is a statement from Sam of "Hammorabi" blog fame:
"All of you know that the situation in Iraq was not that any one like to carry out an election in it though we have done it in a civilised way.
The election was to say big NO to the terrorists and bigger YES for freedom and democracy but even bigger YES for peace and tolerance.
We got bad electrical power, poor water supplies, deteriorating sewage system, and all other services are rooting but we never felt as powerful and strong as now with the democracy and freedom."
Rachel are you telling us that you have sought legal advice from your brother re your ability to sue someone/anyone. What was his advice?
And further no offence to solicitor but the claim I have friends and relatives who are lawyers. There are a lot of solicitors these days. Well my daughter and both my nephews and vast numbers of their friends. And yes many are in International firms. my daughter is a criminal psychologist as well, could be useful if I was to resort to people are being mean to me, what can I threaten them with.
Rachel:
Please don't be upset by the squeeking of these powerless mice. Remember that they are members of a small minority and that they know it.
The great majority of the world's people, including those in the UK, oppose the conquest of Iraq and the other actions of Bushitler, his henchmen, and their Zionist overlords.
Remember also that the majority of Americans oppose the actions of their unelected rulers. The elections of 2000 and 2004 were riddled with fraud, and the people know it.
It is higjly unlikely that Bushitler will serve out his current term without being impeached. Once he is removed from office, he should be turned over to the United Nations war crimes tribunal to answer for his crimes.
We will not be silenced by the threats of Crusaders and Zionists. Brave and highly respected Americans are speaking out every day (for example, Edward Kennedy, John Kerry, Howard Dean, Noam Chomsky, Juan Cole, and many, many others).
Impeach Bushitler!
Bring the Troops Home Now!
POWER TO THE PEOPLE!
Ros - you are correct, sir - you cannot swing a dead cat in London (or the states, as my American partners tell me) without hitting an attorney at an "international" law firm. By way of explanation only, I loved the "I'm really really smart and I'm gonna to tell my big brother on you" line. It is very successful at the Old Bailey.
raven - you are correct, sir, and have shamed me appropriately. Great day for democracy and the rule of law.
Bush Lied, I am not in the least bit upset by the neocon vermin who (to paraphrase Raed Jarrar) think that Iraqis are romantic insensible people who ask nothing more of life than to vote. Iraqis are entitled to electricity, reliable water supplies, well-equipped hospitals, to be in charge of their own country and oil, and to be able to leave the house with the reasonable expectation of being able to return home alive. And the US occupiers are preventing all of that.
I do expect to see Bush, Blair, Rumsfeld, et al on trial for war crimes. In our lifetime.
Seriously Rachel
We have to talk.
After distillation, what is produced from the essence of all your arguments is one thing: that the world should hate America. An unqualified hatred, I might add.
Are you really unable to see that most intelligent people are multi-dimensional in their grasp of concepts. Therefore, a successful dogmatic "philosophy" must appeal, even pseudomorphically, to the logical mind by varying the "temperature" of it's principles.
You're wasting your talent and sabotaging your own admirable efforts by adhering to a monochromatic mantra such as : Hate America, right or wrong.
Qualifications and gradations are required in order to fool the masses into believing you have an agenda worth following. Say for example:
Hate America when it usurps the rights of others.
In this instance, you would then persuade your potential devotees by affecting a congratulatory stance towards Iraqis on the definitive expression of their freedom: a popular vote. Then later, when the morons had been lulled into your deceitful web, you hit them with the full measure of your apocalyptic hatred for the US and they already be sufficiently manipulated into following you.
MF - I am not on the dole, pillock. I earn my own living. I am afraid that I perceive your atrophied narcissism as an tedious distraction from what this blog and comments section is really about. Hereon in, I am going to ignore you.
Here is a quotation from an e-mail sent to Sam and quoted by him on "Hammarabi":
"I must admit. I am one of the "Liberals" here in America that do not really like George W. Bush. I think Bush gave us false reasons for invading Iraq and we were against this war because of all the instability and violence it has caused. BUT - for
right now, I am very happy that things are improving for you all over there and I am glad you think of America as a friend. I wish you all the very best my friend and hope that freedom will continue to blossom for all Iraqis.
Joe"
A potential devotee cannot resist this approach Rachel. You really must try it...I guarantee it will turn things around for you!
Rachel is almost getting comical in her hysterical rantings. Pogrom, indeed. This is right up there with comparing the situation on Baghdad to Leningrad - pure delusion. But, since pogroms are usually associated with czarist era mass murders of Russian Jews, maybe it is actually wishful thinking on her disgusting part, nicht wahr, Reichsfuhrer Rachel, you little nazi scum.
Speaking taddle? And this pronouncement from a real twat!
What a wonderful day!! I was nearly in tears as I watched Iraqi's dancing in the streets. I hope that this is a sign of better days to come for you country.
James in Colorado, USA
You are right Solicitor shouldn't be sucked in. but I am titillated by the thought of your narcissism shrinking through lack of nutrition. or the fact that your posts cause boredom. Constant rhetoric about the bad bad Yanks accompanied by the same conspiracy theories spouted again and again , with adjustments to fit the latest rant. Exciting stuff.
Latest reports I hear are that the Un is still very impressed by the turnout and are still estimating between 60 and 75%. The left is trotting out yes but look how many voted in Vietnam and who they voted for. but they didn't get democracy so there. Not an example I would trot out, because it emphasises the betrayal of the Vietnamese people as a result of the pressure from the Us haters and communist fellow tavellers. and the governments that allowed themselves to be intimidated. I have great confidence that Bush won't do that. Won't effect the rhetoric though. No doubt we will have a shift from the Yanks will never leave, they are liars, to the Yanks will leave and abandon the Iraqis, they are liars.
Heard about your blog on The BBC newsnaight programme, and dropped by to wish you the future you wish for yourselves, in sha'allah
I believe I recall seeing the "fingers in the ear while muttering lalalala" rhetorical device invoked in a recent matter. Unfortunately, the litigant ceased using said defense when court-ordered medication was initiated.
If your little foray into pettifoggery has ended as a result of my thoroughly enjoying myself, narcissistically of course (said narcissism, coincidentally, is inflated, not deflated), then I have contributed to the greater good and consider this a day doubly well spent. Cheers
I would agree rachel that when you are starving freedom is essentially non existent. But to dimiss the views of Iraqis that they can suffer the infrastructure problems because they now have freedom is to suggest they are fools. I can workout that for them with freedom comes the opportunity to provide these higher level needs for themselves. So Raed start working for that rather than covertly supporting the destruction of Iraqi services thus being able to argue see things are really bad you haven't got them
I doubt that a Marsh Arab would find your sudden interest in the need for electricity and water as a demonstration of concern. Does anyone know how the attempts to restore the marshlands is going? Very difficult I understand but I have heard Iraqi and US environmental scientists confident that it was possible though was very difficult and would take along time. There was also the view unfortunately that the draining of the marshlands was also the destruction of the Marsh arabs culture and that therefore this act of genocide (to save argument it was acompanied by vigorous murder of the Marsh Arabs as well) had indeed succeeded.
The pogrom that my servant Rachel spoke about has begun!
"In southern Iraq, U.S. troops opened fire on detainees rioting Monday at the Camp Bucca prison facility, killing four people, the U.S. command said. The unrest broke out during a search for contraband and quickly spread. After warnings and non-lethal methods failed to halt it, "lethal force was used," the military said."
All these innocents were murdered by the infidels and all they did was hide weapons and try to kill the invaders with them! All the martyrs were women, pregnant women, actually, pregnant orphaned women who husbands were martyred by the Zionists! The American occupying army is made up entirely of Jews and Zionist elements! There is not a single American in Iraq, only Israeli agents, Zionists and Jews who kill only pregnant orphaned widows and children!
Death to (your name, group or affiliation here)!
@Rachel:
I have an IQ of 147
Then could you explain once again how you calculated that the total election turnout was 4.8% (revised upwards from 0.48%) in the light of the electoral commission estimates I posted earlier?
Zounds,
Who knew there were that many pregnant, orphaned, widows and children in Iraq? Rachel must be right, I'm revising my whole outlook. Now as an American filled with self-loathing, am I required to off myself to avenge these self-same martyrs? This all gets so confusing. Methinks this calls for a hasty post to Dear Abby!!
Bush Lied says:
"Brave and highly respected Americans are speaking out every day (for example, Edward Kennedy..."
I'm sorry, but I cannot stop laughing at this.
I know your type, your mental maturity stopped at the age of 16. You go to protests for things you don't understand, only for the chance to throw rocks through store-front windows. You ardently believe all conspiracies laid out before you, even when they lack evidence. You hate "the establishment" and "the man." Your favorite band is probably Rage Against the Machine.
Furthermore, your belief that Bush will be impeached is delusional at best. Bush hasn't lied under oath; he hasn't been implicated in obstruction of justice and abuse of power; and he hasn't violated "The Tenure of Office Act" (that was Andrew Johnson, a president from before the time of television, the internet, and "Action Alerts" I'll forgive you if you weren't aware of his impeachment) You're set up for a severe disappointment if you're holding out on a Bush impeachment for anything already done.
You also mention Bush being elected by fraud. You may have a point about 2000, but suggesting the 2004 election was fraudulent just shows how detached from reality you really are. If you can show me credible evidence from factual, legitimate sources that election fraud occurred (and no, long lines in poor Ohio neighborhoods don't cut it.) I will think of your statements as nothing more then you being a sore loser. Also, I'm no Bush supporter, I haven't agreed with a single policy of his in five years, so don't bother writing me of as a right winger. I write to you supporting truth and rational thinking, not a politician.
I suppose that's all. If you care to put the bong down and stop fretting about the Zionist conspiracy, please do join us in reality. It's a nice place, and we'd love to have you back some time.
Ros, you are a pompous, self-important, mischievous witch.
My, my, projecting a bit, Rachel?
I do expect to see Bush, Blair, Rumsfeld, et al on trial for war crimes. In our lifetime.
Since we live on Planet Earth and not Moonbeam Number 9, that is unlikely. However, I do expect that Rachel and Bush Lied will choke to death on their own hatred and bile one day. Such continual nastiness and spleen is not good for the blood pressure, dear.
Again, Zayed, congratulations on your elections.
I would also like to thank our British allies, particularly MF-a soliciter in London, whose posts in this thread have been terribly entertaining, although he is not as funny as Rachel.
You guys are killing me. I love when RAchel posts and MF was funny as hell.
MF and Tammy, you are my new heroes.
By the way, Rachel's numbers about 1.1 million registered voters is so wrong I can't even believe she had the gall to post it anywhere (and she's posted in about 5 times that I can tell around the internet).
Let's be clear. 1.1 million "registerers" is actually the number of people who went to the registration office and either UPDATED their information or were ADDED on the FOOD RATIONING rolls left over from the UN FOOD FOR OIL program that was used to create the base of the REGISTERED VOTERS.
In other words, if they were on the FOOD FOR OIL rolls (that was appx 14 mil people before the 1.1 new or updated voters) then they were eligible to vote by simply providing identification and proving who they were against these rolls.
As a matter of fact, there were at least a few hundred (possibly as many as a thousand) people that were *gasp* disenfranchised from the voting process because they were not on the rolls for the FFO (they apparently didn't get the word about going to register or had not previously received cards) and they staged a mini protest showing their IDs as "Iraqis" the press.
If Rachel was as smart as she says she is, she would have actually picked up this story and ran with it about voter disenfranchisement. At least it would have had a modicum of truth in it and could have been supported.
Unfortunately, Rachel's job in the local pet store or shoe store or whatever it is she ended up working at to "support" herself, must not allow her time to associate in the real world.
Of course, this is the "woman" who insisted several weeks ago that the voters registratioon cards (food ration coupons) were being sold for $400 on the black market.
Now, how would these poor Iraqis get their food if they sold their coupons? Seriously, how would they be forced into voting for food and then not be able to vote for lack of said coupon based on your conspiracy?
Of course, the conspiracy is based on the fact that people were asked to update said "food ration" rolls in order to be validated for voting in the first place.
I know logic just confuses Rachel, but I'd thought I'd try it. LOL
PS..if you want to sue me, my email is on the bar below this message.
LOL
@Kat
Let's be clear. 1.1 million "registerers" is actually the number of people who went to the registration office and either UPDATED their information or were ADDED on the FOOD RATIONING rolls...
Ok. That much is clear. But, according to Rachel's calculations, 67% of 1.1 million is 67,000 which represents only 0.48% of the eligible electorate. Now, overlooking the factor of 10 error (we've all done that at some stage, haven't we?) ... where did the 67% come from? ... I guess that's the median of the 60-75% turnout estimates. For those estimates, you would presumably watch or read the news. Now, the following was typical of the news headlines I saw on Sunday... "Millions of Iraqis defy insurgents to vote" (from a local paper). The Washington Post and CNN both had the word "Millions" in the headlines on their websites by early Sunday. So I was just curious as to how Rachel arrived at a number in the 10's or 100's of thousands using a percentage she must have gotten from a news site, without noticing the discrepancy between her figures and theirs.
Zayed,
Congratulations to the heroic and brave Iraqi's who voted!
History will record the sacrifices and hardships of all involved in a DEMOCRATIC IRAQ and place your generation as the forefathers of Iraqi freedom. I am glad to have witnessed it. Write down your memories and pass them on.
As to the negative commentators, they cannot see the bigger picture, or have no knowlegde of their own country's history in the fight to democracy.
The best advice I saw recently on another blog...."Scroll the Trolls". (My apologies, I cannot remeber the source....)
I might add "Forgive" & Scroll the Trolls. Many developmentaly challenged individuals have IQs above 140 and need help.
Oh, yes. The other thing was that Rachel's figures (even after multiplication by 10) implied only 20 voters per polling station in a five to ten hour period. You didn't even have to read the news to see the discrepancy ... you only needed to look at the pictures. (Unless 95% of Iraqis who risked life and limb did so only to dance in the street).
Yes! Yes! Yes for the Infidels!! It's good to be a heretic! They just think they have all the answers.
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Way to go Iraq!
You guys are seriously funny! This comment sections get better and better all the time!
"MF and Tammy, you are my new heroes."
The feeling is mutual Kat.
Love to all Iraqis! You are very beautiful people!
Dang,
Rachel, like I told you last night, give it a rest woman. You are getting your a** handed to you at every turn. I don't know about your IQ, but that emotional intelligence (EQ) I told you about? I think you are operating in negative territory on that one.
Bridget,
.
.
.
.
.when are you going to fuck me? 
""It is higjly unlikely that Bushitler will serve out his current term without being impeached. Once he is removed from office, he should be turned over to the United Nations war crimes tribunal to answer for his crimes.""
There would be about 53,000,000 people locked and loaded ready to shoot the motherf**kers who try a stunt like that.
Just so you know, rachel's comments can be found on Democratic Underground or vice-versa.
She either's starts out the to get her daily fuzzy warm sweater affirmations or she cuts and pastes all her favourite leftie loonie's rants here there and everywhere, kinda like rat droppings you'll know them when you see them!
And you know the more she posts the more she sounds just like this crazy women who worked in our office! Well turns out this wacko was stealing from the company! There was also a rash of small change missing from various people's desks, so everyone was careful to lock up everything!
Perhaps we could lock up Rat the Brit!
Rachel do you work? Since you're on here and other Iraqi sites non-stop I'm wondering if it indeed is true that you're living on the dole, or your big brother's allowance, bitter and resentful that Americans are doing the right thing. Is that how you lost your last job, didn't go along with work requirements, like shut up and do your work?
Nice collection of juvenile sex obsessed trolls that follow you around, like flies to shit!
The Iraqi's are the visionary leaders of the Middle East. Thank you for your courage and brillance! The IP's were fabulous by the way. And seeing the old people being carried to the polls to vote, just made me cry. What courage!
BITE THE BIG BLUE FINGER
@Rachel:
I have an IQ of 147 >/i>
What do you do with it ?
Bush Lied,
You said ""Brave and highly respected Americans are speaking out every day (for example, Edward Kennedy..."
LOL...If you only knew how his older brother (our departed president) rolls over in the grave every time teddy speaks, you would understand that Teddy is neither brave (although some would say that while plastered, he might pass as brave) nor highly respected by most. He is just about ready for the funny farm and no, his rants do not attract any but the far left fringe of society in these United States. He is a has-been and a drunk and a disgrace to the United States Senate and the sooner he retires, the better. Now Zell Miller...there is a brave Senator who has spoken up...read his speech on why we need to stay the course...
http://www.hillsdale.edu/newimpr...mis/
default.htm
THAT speech is something to stand besides. Just as the vast majority of us Americans stand side by side with the Iraqis who had the courage to vote. They are my heros. Kennedy is but a joke.
This is the truth. Deal with it.
Impeach Bushitler!
Bring the Troops Home Now!
Power to the People!
Rachel,
You crack me up! You said "This is the sort of thing that the international observers should take care of but God knows where they are or how much "observing" they are doing.
Rachel, a Brit in London "
God knows and sees all, Rachel, and that includes the fact that he is watching you as well. He wants the Iraqi people to be free and to be away from the likes of Zarqawi (who is driven by Satan himself)...so you see, the prayers of millions of us in the US have been answered...God DID give the Iraqi people courage to go to the polls and cast their ballots for a say in their new government. It was God's will. So when you start trying to twist God's watchful eye about (as if there were any major problems with the voting and the observers), God knows where you live and he doesn't want you misrepresenting him. So enough of your drivel. God hates a liar and thats what you do (even though you probably believe your lies). We want an end to the tyranny in Iraq (the ex-baathists who kill so many and the foreign Arabs who come to blow themselves up for some warped sense of heaven) and we want the Iraqi people to have good imput into their new government. So lets see who the new government asks to leave Iraq...Our troops or Zarqawi? Hmmm...care to wager a bet?
Rachel do you work? Since you're on here and other Iraqi sites non-stop I'm wondering if it indeed is true that you're living on the dole,
I think this is Rachel's "Work" - you cannot "live on the dole" it simply does not pay enough.
Rachel probably freelances which is why she fills out Self-Assessment tax forms......I do hope her arithmetic errors work to the Exchequer's advantage
>The pogrom
Uh, what an ugly word.
>that my servant Rachel spoke about has begun!
Master I still think that a female servant is devouring my respect for you.
>"In southern Iraq, U.S. troops opened fire on detainees rioting Monday at the Camp Bucca prison facility, killing four people, the U.S. command said.
I would not listen to much to the words of that organisation, sometimes they lie about stuff, you know.
>The unrest broke out during a search for contraband and quickly spread.
What were they expecting to find? I mean, haden't they searched the detainees several times before? I dont think these people are that sloppy.
>After warnings and non-lethal methods failed to halt it, "lethal force was used," the military said."
Lehtal force was used, what an brilliant euphemism. The US_army is not killing people anymore, the US-army is just using lethal force.
>All these innocents were murdered by the infidels and all they did was hide weapons and try to kill the invaders with them!
Deetanies with weapons? Crude. Uhm, the south, must be Sadrs men then? Btw, fyi, they were not trying to kill the americans, they were just preparing to use lethal force against the invaders.
>All the martyrs were women, pregnant women, actually, pregnant orphaned women who husbands were martyred by the Zionists!
As always.
>The American occupying army is made up entirely of Jews and Zionist elements!
Maybe thats why this army is so damn good.
>There is not a single American in Iraq
You sound like an iraqi information minister, what was it's name, Sahaf?
>only Israeli agents, Zionists and Jews who kill only pregnant orphaned widows and children!
They get some of us insurgents from time to time to, i have to admitt that master.
>Death to (your name, group or affiliation here)!
Hm, still sending out the standard letter are we? I's getting lame, couldn't we change it a bit, please Master Osama crank it up a notch.
"The Baghdad meteorological office confirms that the weather was clear with only moderate winds and no sandstorms at the time of the crash."
"The bad news is that the Iraqi people have gained the ability to shoot down our aircraft. The US, having lost control of the use of the roads in Iraq, resorted (as they did in Veitnam) to trying to run the war from the air. "
According to people who have been jailed by both Saddam and the US, the US torturers are much, MUCH worse.
"And while we are at it, Iran actually gassed the Kurds, according to a study by the US Army War College."
Oh Rachel Oh rachel, up until now you were just a fellow traveller.
Now you are so unintelligent.
Resorted to running the war in the air. The most terrifiying thing about the US is that if it ever lets go it can destroy most of the world. Resorted to the air, it's not just that they have global hawks/ predators UAV (interstingly unmanned is politically incorrect) they are very close to just sending up whole platforms of unmanned planes. They can see the world and no one can stop them. They can make the decision to utterly destroy an enemy and there is nothing that any body can do. China has no hope. If the US decided to destroy China then it would be over. As one of our left wing politicians said, if North Korea is ever foolish enough to fire a nuclear weapon at the US or her friends, within hours North Korea, all of North Korea, would be a nuclear puddle. In all of us there is the hope that America remains benevolent. There has never been a military power like the US. It's naval air force is the second biggest in the world. The US militarily exceeds the rest of the world combined. And you may try to kid yourself but it is not just in hard technology that they command.
You are stupid beyond belief.
How could you offer support to people who argue that the monstrosity of Saddam was less than the US. Tell me about the people who have been in US Iraqi prisons and have had their children tortured in front of them. Tell me about the children who have been in Us Iraqi prisons and had their mothers heads cut off in front of them. Tell me about the people who have been put through shredding machines in US Iraqi prisons. tell me about the people who were taken from Us Iraqi prisons and buried alive together in multiple thousands.
You are not an alternative view you are just utterly stupid.
I hope Iraqi's can transcend their (justified)election-euphoria in a working together spirit.
Because though the image in the third world of the west is often of people only living for themselves the reality is we combine stark individualism with a very strong teamplayer mentality.
You cannot have a flourishing society without people working together.
the manco in almost all third world countries is the everybody against everybody-mentality which is crippling development on all levels.
This means one needs sometimes to compromise personal party-preferences to benefit the well being of the nation as a whole.
It's best defined by the Dutch proverb: to jump over your own shadow.
It would be great if in the coming months there will grow a bond between all pro democracy Iraqi's and divisions will less and less be between shia/kurd/assyrian/turkmen/sunni etc.lines but between those who are pro and anti-democracy.
Between people who want to deal with each other on a civil basis against those who are using guns and bombs to get their way: it's the only difference that must really counts as a matter of fact.
This can help to gain basic trust between all (rational) Iraqi's: if you know the (unknown) other one at least is pro democracy he or she though being different is basically on your side.
So first questions no longer ask about ethnic/sectarian backgrounds but about a willingness to democracy.
Unity is strength/ division is weakness: This doesn't mean there are no differences anymore but that you agree on the rules of the game.
If the Iraqi's of good will recognise and support each other crossing ethnic/religious lines your combined force will crush the terrorists in a new york minute.
It will soon appear to be key for a better Iraq.
Charles Kennedy: British troops must now prepare to leave Iraq
The British presence was undermined from the start by the way we chose to go to war
01 February 2005
It has been tempting to pre-judge the Iraq elections - to declare that they are neither "free nor fair" by comparing them with the kind of election we are used to. For those of us who opposed the war from the outset, there is a gnawing sense of outrage at the loss of life, the instability and the violence now endemic in Iraq. That should not lead us to an unbalanced approach to either the elections themselves or where we go from here.
The truth is that it will be a week before we can see whether this vote has delivered a representative constitutional body and it will be some months before we can judge whether the mandate handed to the new Iraqi Government will be respected or lasting. But, right now, I believe that we can and should applaud the bravery of those citizens who went out to vote and the paramount issue is how best we can help the Iraqi people to move forward.
Of course, no one should be under any illusions. The insurgents won't lay down their arms just because of this vote. The spectre of civil war still hangs over the nation, and Iraq has become a crucible of militant terrorism. ... It may well be that there would still be a need for the international community to help provide Iraq's security beyond that time, but a more suitable answer than a continuation of the occupation by coalition forces would be a proper UN military presence - ideally drawing particularly on troops from predominantly Muslim countries.
... This is not a strategy for cutting and running. It is an acceptance that the British presence in Iraq - despite much good work that our soldiers have done - was undermined from the start by the way we chose to go to war. And it is an acceptance that Iraq will not find the long-term stability and security it requires while British troops remain.
To those trying to goad me into revealing more about my personal circumstances. I would not be so impertinent as to ask you what you do to earn your living, so I am not going to tell you any more about what I do. I work. I am not subsidised by anyone. I do not receive an allowance of any sort from anyone.
Get over it.
From that link provided by Bush Lied:
Rather than admit that the invasion of Iraq is a "Charlie Foxtrot", Bush and his pro-war advisors will continue to pour your money and your children into Iraq, because they have to stay in Iraq in order to move on to the invasion of Iran. And the justifications for invading Iran are, well, the same ones they used for Iraq, weapons of mass destruction, support for terror, yadda yadda yadda... The nation will slide more firmly into unpayable debt at the rate of $5 billion a month, to fight a war whose real purpose is being hidden from the American people whose money and children are being spent so profligately. Bush can't even keep the smirk off of his face any more. He knows he is lying. He knows you know he is lying. And he knows there isn't anything you will do about it. Most people don't have the courage to stand up to a corrupt war machine until after it is their own child lying in that box, and of course by then it is way too late. ... The people the US invaded are getting better at killing our kids, who were sent off to invade Iraq for, well, we don't really know, do we? They are angry, and rightly so. The people of Iraq know they did not do any of the things Bush claimed they did to justify the war. Our troops know it too. Our kids KNOW they are the villains, and they have to fight that awareness while they fight the Iraqi people, the climate, and the lack of supplies. The war cannot be won because all the stated goals have been exposed as deceptions. And your kids are stuck there, dying, not because they can win, but because thay are just "placeholders", holding open the door to the invasion of Iran.
And, of course, making millions for Halliburton, KBR, Negroponte etc etc.
Charles Kennedy sober is as farcical as Charles Kennedy in his natural state. A professional politico from the age of 23......he is not really up to the standard of his predecessor.
Champagne Charley represents a few sheep-farmers on the islands at the very north of Scotland; he is not a serious figure and well-suited to displaying the colour of his party whenever the need for resolve is called for.............
http://www.charleskennedy.org.uk/
http://www.libdems.org.uk/
And, of course, making millions for Halliburton, KBR, Negroponte etc etc.
Rachel, a Brit in London | Email | Homepage | 02.01.05 - 7:33 am | #
only millions ? Surely billions
BTW Rachel.........KBR is a subsidiary of Halliburton just as London Electricity is a subsidiary of Electricite de France, and EdF is a subsidiary of the French Government
Defense Minister Hazem Shaalan said Iraq would only ask U.S. and other forces to leave when the country's own troops were capable of taking on insurgents.
"We don't want to have foreign troops in our country, but at the same time we believe that these forces should stay for some time until we are able to control the borders and establish a new modern army and we have efficient intelligence," Shaalan told reporters. "At that time ... we'll ask them to leave."
Mister Shalaan is saying the right thing: foreign troops need to stay untill Iraq is strong enough to take care of it's own business. That will take time (years): enough Iraqi's (especially sunni's) need to believe in their new democracy and feel protected by it.
At the same time Iraq must be able to withstand local outside interference from all sides: turkey/syria and iran especially who all want influence in Iraq and neither of them deserve it because their intentions are purely their own interests and not the needs of Iraq.
If the iraqi police/army is superior/ well fed and equiped (read: can (almost) match western standards in anyway) then the west can withdraw though a 25.000/50.000 men will in my opinion still for a very long time be necessary to keep the evil neighbours from even thinking they have a chance in gaining Iraqi power.
A lot of liberal westerners are pushing troopwithdrawing not to the benefit of Iraq but hoping the misery afterwards will bring Bush down at least psychologically.
The disgusting debts of too much western leftwingers are very deep: To wish suffering for Iraq out of hate for a president. How do you sleep at night thinking in such things?
I once called myself leftwing and though I am still according to american standards (I believe in a social kind of capitalism with care for poor people)I am very ashamed and angered by the blatant nihilistic approach the left is taking on Iraq: it's never about the local people: it's always about america and Bush.
They're obsessed with the "wrongdoings" of this last remaining superpower.
I just want Iraq to become as free and rich as we are.
They have the potential to be even richer as us if the oilmoney is used in a clever and honest way.
It will be a double blessing not only for the Iraqi people itself but also for us because a real prosperous Iraq will fasten the end of islamic fascism with decades.
It will prove once and for all arab democracy is not only possible but the only way to national happiness and bloom.
That's why they are so fanatically violent in iraq: they know what's at stake there, I wish more westerners did also. they need our total commitment.
Iraq is key in the battle on terror.
(alpha and omega).
Rachel,
I used to think your rantings were incoherent, and your logic flawed. I owe you an apology. You have talked about folks not being able to vote, and I did not believe you. Now, I see the error of my ways. Recently, I saw this article in the Washington Post, and realized that if this one man is unable to vote, oh how many more noble men must not have been able to either. The link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6893925/
Pleae read it, neocon scum, and realized that Rachel was indeed right about this election. Please forgive me, Rachel.
Well Great Britain had 41% who did not cast a vote in 2001, and it seems like 50% may note vote in the next election..........41% was the lowest turnout since 1918 and that was the year that the voter-base expanded dramatically as women >30 were allowed to vote and all men over 21 years....................so Great ritain really looks sick at the beginning of the 21st Century...........
Maybe if the UN came to run the trains and the Post Office things would improve........but Blair was elected leader by 15% Labour Party members; and Labour was elected a Government by just 24% eligible voters.............76% did not vote for them
Congratulations! Those brave Iraqi's who voted set a wonderful example for us all to follow. You all earn my respect more and more every day. I truly hope that US & Arab relations will one day be strong.
My heart goes out to all those that were killed while trying to vote. I would hope that these innocent victims would be consider martyrs. Somehow, I doubt I would ever see such a statement on Al Jazeera... but perhaps once day.
You have all earned my deepest respect!
I am so happy for the Iraqis. For a moment I wished I was Iraqi just to feel the satification so many of you did on that day. Good luck.
Gracious Greetings and Peace be upon you, your family and your people...
I hope to see a day when not only is Iraq democractic, but that Saudi Arabia and Jordan's governments will find democracy (perhaps akin to England which still has it's royal family) and that even Iran will find itself in the hands of it's people.
I wish we were doing more for you. I wish we had power, fuel, safety, etc. for you. I will promise you that I will try to encourage my nation (U.S.) not to depart until we've achieved those goals for your land.
Peace.....and blessings.
- Jason "The Saj"
Democracy....
The illusion of the mass, that allows them to think they are not ruled by the self proclaimed elite.
Democracy is the control-tool of the New World Order.
Bush almost said this himself.
THINK !
Please think!
Understand that you dont have a choice, Bush and the rest of the self proclaimed elite has already chosen for you.
Just think i bit about it.
God save Iraq.
Eric, you are so right! That's it, down with Amerika! No votes, no notes! Saddam Saddam he's our man, if he can't vote, noone can!
Ah, more from Lt. S who is actually out with the Iraqis south of Baghdad, not sitting on his ass in the Green Zone hotels interviewing journalists who interviewed journalists, etc etc etc.
The Iraqi police arrested three knuckleheads who just could not keep low. The morons got into a car and drove around threatening people at polling places. Dimbulbs!
People were in line to vote when a hero of Allah walked up and blew himself and some others up. The peole dived for cover. Then, they helped clean up the dead, civilians volunteered to take the places of poll workers who had been martyred (these are true martyrs), and the people again lined up and stepped over the blood and remaining body parts to continue to vote.
Arab media were “covering” the vote. They were making chiding comments on the whole process. Of course, they have no freedom to comment on their own government; no criticism of the Emirs of Bahrain or Qatar; no comments on Mubarak or Assad. So, one Iraqi, who was dancing in the streets for joy with so many others, started scolding a Bahraini reporter “Go tell the Emir that an Iraqi voted for freedom before a Bahraini did!” Hey, a little international reproof is okay.
So, the Rachels and Bush Lieds and such vermin are being swept away by the tide of history. They may believe that Arabs and Muslims are unworthy and incapable of aspiring to liberty and freedom, but obviously the Iraqis are proving them wrong. They are a piffle, just a pimple on a pig’s ass. They, the Ted (hic!) Kennedys, John (this is a sham) Kerrys, Michael (urp!) Moores and Rachel (gotta find the shit or I'll just die!) a Git in London types of the world are just plain wrong, yet again, and demonstrably so. Imperfect as things are, they are better with life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Seemingly, something they do not know about.
Speaking of elections, the gubernatorial election here in Far West Ukraine, or Washingkraine, is still in dispute. (I guess we could learn from Iraq here in the People's Republic of King - we'll keep finding votes until our candidate wins - County.) It seems that we now know that the Total Twit, Rachel Corey, who died protecting terrorists and homicide bombers in Gaza, has come back to life! At any rate, she absentee voted this last time around! Wow!
The tide is flowing
Liberty calls
I hear freedom’s echo
In tyrants’ dark halls
Tremble in fear
Awaiting your doom
Swept like dirt
From an opened tomb
Finally, some quotes from the President on staying the course:
Let it be clear--and this is a judgment which the Members of the Congress must finally make--let it be clear that I am asking the Congress and the country to accept a firm commitment to a new course of action, a course which will last for many years and carry very heavy costs…If we are to go only half way, or reduce our sights in the face of difficulty, in my judgment it would be better not to go at all.
Rickvid
You should turn off the fanatism, and try to understand the situation.
Soren, spend less time on the Stroget and more time reading about the real heros of freedom. You can find some in the Resistance Museum. King Christian X was a true hero of freedom.
Buck up, boy. It isn't all Illuminati, Freemasons and secret decoder rings.
Fanatism? Ya'lost me there, boy! Fanatic for liberty? Yep. Sorrowful mope, dour and resigned? Nope.
Kat, you just slay me with your wit and precise analysis.
I recommend Kat's homepage for photos that the BBC, Guardian, Rachels and Bush Lieds and Sorens would prefer you not see. After all, it might make some think that mere Arabs and Muslims are heroic and brave and do want liberty.
Rickvid ya sound like Bush.
If i´ll buck up, will you then promise to make some independent thinking?
TICKLER
File on 4
20:00-20:40 GMT
BBC Radio 4 [See programme entry in alphabetical listing: there will be a "Listen" icon there when the programme is broadcast]
Gerry Northam investigates allegations that much of Iraq's oil wealth has been squandered by incompetence and corruption during the current occupation.
Eg wages paid to "8,000" security guards at one ministry - yet there appear to have been actually only 600.
Those critics who, having opposed the war, reflexively opposed the elections as well, will note the irony of curfews, banned car use and repeated security checks imposed by armed forces in the name of liberty. This election was indeed unique, and far from perfect. When security is moot, so is the question of whether real power is being handed to the winner. For security reasons there were no candidates' names or faces on the ballot papers; only a list of more than 100 parties, among which none-too-transparent negotiations are already under way to form a Shia-dominated coalition that must not only draft a new constitition before a referendum in October, but also run the country until fresh elections when that constitition comes into force two months later.
Yet Iraq's voters have unequivocally put their faith in the representative assembly that will choose successors to Mr Allawi's interim government. That assembly's responsibilities can hardly be overstated. Nor can the new government's challenges, chief among them winning the support of moderate Sunnis whether or not they voted. Attacks by the Sunni-dominated insurgency will doubtless continue, but it can and must be marginalised by ensuring legitimate Sunni intrests are adequately represented in government. The alternative of powersharing by larger Shia and Kurdish blocs at the expense of the Sunnis could still lead to full-blown civil war.
History has yet to rule on the net effect on global security of ousting Saddam Hussein. But this much is clear: The election would not have happened were he still in power. It gave cause for celebration in most of Iraq, and should do so everywhere.
The US really is not in a position to teach/preach democracy.
BREAKING NEWS: Report on Election Irregularities Refutes Exit Poll "Explanation"
Problems found in nearly every post election investigation, all of which favored the re-election of the President, include: voting machine shortages; ballots counted in secret; lost, discarded, and improperly rejected registration forms and absentee ballots; touch-screen machines that registered “Bush” when voters pressed “Kerry”; precincts in which turnout was suspiciously high, including many which had more votes recorded than registered voters;
precincts in which the reported turnout was suspiciously low; and high
rates of “spoiled” ballots and under-votes in which no choice for president was recorded.
Your President does not have a mandate.
http://www.eyes-and-ears.co.uk/u...ls.asp?
ident=37
Gerry Northam
History chose Iraq to be the first arab democracy: both a burden and a privilege: I believe once we will knew why.
This new democratic Iraq is in many ways a new house that needs acclimatisation by it's inhabitants
Uniting symbols pointing out the sacrifices made by the Iraqi pioneers of freedom can help in achieving that at a faster pace.
my proposal: a sober statue with the names of all the soldiers/policemen and even voters who died in the name of freedom for example on the place where in 2003 the statue of saddam went down.
That is if people can reach the statue easy. If the traffic is too heavy then another place is better.
They are the true heroes putting themselves on the line for the sake of the nation: they deserve enduring recognition and fame as inspiring examples of the right fighting spirit.
Your President does not have a mandate.
Rachel, a Brit in London | Email | Homepage | 02.01.05 - 12:45 pm | #
Oh I don't know Rachel......how nice it is to have Bush back in the White House...if only the 22nd Amendment were to be revoked...........
Kerry ? even George Soros regrets backing him........ you are such a cartoon Rachel
This is the sort of thing that can happen, where it is too dangerous for the media to travel around. Found on another forum:
According to reporter Dahr Jamail, the BBC images [by razorwire] of Iraqis described there as "Iraqis queued to vote in the former rebel stronghold of Falluja" actually show Fallujans queing at the main Fallujan checkpoint for the seaching and "processing" they must endure to access what remains of their homes.
Pass it on.
History chose Iraq to be the first arab democracy:
Lebanon next.......
actually show Fallujans queing at the main Fallujan checkpoint for the seaching and "processing" they must endure to access what remains of their homes.
What there are still Fallujans ? I thought they all disappeared in Jenin !
Yes Rachel......an unbiased source
I was born and raised in Houston, Texas and attended college at Texas A&M University where I majored in Speech Communications. After graduating, I moved to Colorado, then Utah, then Washington State where I worked for awhile on a Masters in English Literature. Funds ran out, so I took a job working in an air monitoring laboratory on Johnston Island, a US territory in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. We monitored the air at a chemical demilitarization plant that incinerated 6% of the chemical weapons (now obsolete) of the military.
While there I traveled around the world on my breaks from the monotonous job. The perspective and experiences I gained from my travels opened my mind and heart to the world-seeing the unearned and unfair privilege we in the US had struck me whilst traveling to so many developing countries like Indonesia and Palau, then later Nepal.
I had a calling to move to Alaska to climb Denali. I moved there in 1996, climbed Denali the next summer, and have stayed ever since. There I worked as a mountain guide during summers, as well as assisting in rescues with the park service. My life there for 5 years centered primarily on climbing and being in the mountains. Climbing found me traveling to Mexico, Pakistan, Chile and Argentina.
One of the largest influences on me was a job I took in the climbing off-season which was working as a personal assistant for my dear friend Duane French, who experiences quadriplegia. I saw the efforts he went to just to exist, and how government policy directly affected his life. Here I was awakened politically. Our daily discussions of policy and political parties got my wheels turning, pulling me out of the classic American comfort-zone of apathy and ignorance.
Then of course watching the stealing of the presidency in 2000 by the Bush regime shocked me further into action, followed by the military response to 9/11, then of course the selling of the Iraq invasion. During the media sell job, I could take no more and knew that this was an information war. I had done some freelance writing for various magazines and continued this by writing in our alternative weekly rag in Anchorage.
Do you pester your MP as well with all this obsessional-neurosis ....or just your GP ?
There are predictions Iraq will be democratic but in a hampered way like Russia or Brazil.
Both countries suffer heavily from corruption and in both cases it is crippling the evolvement of a decent civil society.
Corruption often hinders the development of new democratic institutions and it's legitimacy amongst the population.
Maybe Iraq can put up a special department of anti-corruption who 24 hours a day will be checking and persecuting corruption on all levels from the policeman taking bribes till ministers stealing oilrevenues to sell on the black market.
If people are seeing honesty and fairness in their institutions they will be encouraged to play their part in a better Iraq.
Behaviour can be contagious and copied especially from the top down so an effort to be as transparant as possible must be made by the new Iraqi governing structures.
Zeyad,
as you see here the fanatical 'War on Terror' loonies haven't understood the meaning of these first post-Saddam Iraqi elections.
If the results are not rigged, the winners (and Allawi won't be one of them) will have as a first task to heal Iraq & to work for national reconciliation & a national agreement, reaching out to the patriot sectors of the Iraqi resistance and confining the US troops to their camps as a first step in their staged withdrawal.
Your Bushist commentors do not seem to have perceived that these elections mean (thanks be to God) that the 'kicking butt' times are over for Iraq.
No responsible Iraqi national Government, such as the one born out of these elections, would pursue a 'war on terror' against a considerable part of the Iraqi population, or let the foreign occupiers 'in contact' anymore with the Iraqi population (raiding houses, shooting civilians at checkpoints, drowning them into rivers, throwing 500 pounds bombs from the air on Iraqi cities and villages, torturing and shooting prisoners). So your new Government will thank the US a lot, and organise a timetable for the withdrawal of their troops (leaving possibly some 20,000 of them up to the end of the electoral process as an ultimate safeguard against coups), and the release of political prisoners.
The al-Qaidists will then disappear into thin air (or go back to Saudi Arabia).
Wishing all the best to Iraq,
Talking about corruption: I have read that the reason chalabi really fell from grace was that he took the archives from the mukhabarat and used it to blackmail other politicians.
I only have one source for this but apart from whether it's true or not that's exactly the kind of thing one needs to clamp down in the new Iraq.
A new totally independant anti-corruption department could play a part in this (people can for example anonymous give information about governmental crimes and misdemeanors and be certain they won't get hanged for it, on the contrary, people who unveil unjust behaviour will be rewarded).
Can't we bomb Italy? It looks like we missed a few last time.
Can't we bomb Italy? It looks like we missed a few last time.
Anonymous | 02.01.05 - 1:55 pm | #
Anonymous:
All in good time. The genocidal leprecaun killers of Ireland are next on the list.
Timetables for withdrawing foreign troops would be extremely stupid because it's saying to the terrorists: we are now suffocating you but that will stop right then and then.
So the islamists just have to wait till all western troops are out and begin again with renewed vigour their animal games while the local forces lose their backing both in military power and psychologically: don't underestimate the mental factor in this battle.
The only real certainty Iraqi forces have at the moment is the backing of a mighty american army the rest is new and unknown territory.
There is a huge difference in being just canonfodder like under saddam and a highly effective modern soldier whose life counts for something.
The terrorists must be kept totally uncertain about when the american hammer is leaving and in between Iraqi forces needs to get stronger and stronger and stronger also by building confidence in the new institutions.
Soldiers are only effective when they trust in the goals they fight for and the commanders that lead them: That's why the peshmerga's are the best Iraqi fighters at the moment: their succesfull autonomy gained them by experience routine/ confidence and efficiency.
Patience and perseverance is needed in this hour of the struggle.
If there aren't any terror attacks for let's say one and a half year and the Iraqi political process runs smoothly then slowly without too much publicity america can carefully pull back but 25.000/50.000 will even then be necessary for at least a generation.
Nothing wrong that: germany became a sovereign free blooming prosperous nation with till recently 80.000 american soldiers in enormous camps.
(by the way to the benefit of the local economy lately there were protests against withdrawal in some german villages and towns completely depending on american spendings).
South korea and japan idem also became sophisticated beautiful countries with large contigents of american troops.
So after getting utterly smacked down on her idiotic harebrained diatribes about the Iraqi election, the Git in the slime oozes on the produce the usual lies about the American elections.
Haaaaa! What a total vile wretch! Unfathomable, despicable, wicked, debased, degraded villainy.
All in good time. The genocidal leprecaun killers of Ireland are next on the list.
Brave words. I've heard them before, from thousands of species across thousands of worlds, since long before you were created. But, now they are all Borg... er... now they are all Paddies and Micks.
Fools... fools... the Kennedy clan was only a Trojan horse. Bush is our new Paddy in the White House. Ok, admittedly he's from dubious stock (the invader Strongbow and the traitor Mac Mhurchadha), but we have a knack for assimilating people of that ilk... you may call us the Borg-orrah.
Ah..
Rickvid.!! My freind! I see you changed your style.
Last time my post to you was:
[
Rickvid ya sound like Bush.
If i´ll buck up, will you then promise to make some independent thinking?
]
You can of course answer if you like, even though i see you now aspire to even more fanatic burps than what i have seen before.
For those of you who are tired of Rickvids rants and dont know any other iraq bloggers than zeyad, try
http://dahrjamailiraq.com/weblog/
Nice to read different blogs and different opinions from Iraq.
Thats why i read zeyad too.
Blair was elected leader by 15% Labour Party members; and Labour was elected a Government by just 24% eligible voters.............76% did not vote for them
Strong government or representative government... your choice. Tories and Labour both bitch about this when in opposition... so where's the new PR system? Funny how they both lose interest once they are in a position to do something about it.
PeteS. I agree with you.
The Vietnam turnout was good as well
No amount of spin can conceal Iraqis' hostility to US occupation
On September 4 1967 the New York Times published an upbeat story on presidential elections held by the South Vietnamese puppet regime at the height of the Vietnam war. Under the heading "US encouraged by Vietnam vote: Officials cite 83% turnout despite Vietcong terror", the paper reported that the Americans had been "surprised and heartened" by the size of the turnout "despite a Vietcong terrorist campaign to disrupt the voting". ... The echoes of this weekend's propaganda about Iraq's elections are so close as to be uncanny.
CONTINUED
With the past few days' avalanche of spin, you could be forgiven for thinking that on January 30 2005 the US-led occupation of Iraq ended and the people won their freedom and democratic rights. ... How you could square the words democracy, free and fair with the brutal reality of occupation, martial law, a US-appointed election commission and secret candidates has rarely been allowed to get in the way of the hype.
The second layer of spin has been designed to convince us that an overwhelming majority of Iraqis participated. The initial claim of 72% having voted was quickly downgraded to 57% of those registered to vote. So what percentage of the adult population is registered to vote? ... In fact, as UN sources confirm, there has been no registration or published list of electors - all we are told is that about 14 million people were entitled to vote.
CONTINUED
George Bush and Tony Blair made heroic speeches on Sunday implying that Iraqis had voted to approve the occupation. ... The facts on the ground, including the construction of massive military bases in Iraq, indicate that the US is digging in to install and back a long-term puppet regime. For this reason, the US-led presence will continue, with all that entails in terms of bloodshed and destruction.
Zarqawi-style sectarian violence is not only condemned by Iraqis across the political spectrum, including supporters of the resistance, but is widely seen as having had a blind eye turned to it by the occupation authorities. Such attitudes are dismissed by outsiders, but the record of John Negroponte, the US ambassador in Baghdad, of backing terror gangs in central America in the 80s has fuelled these fears,
CONTINUED
An honest analysis of the social and political map of Iraq reveals that Iraqis are increasingly united in their determination to end the occupation. Whether they participated in or boycotted Sunday's exercise, this political bond will soon reassert itself - just as it did in Vietnam - despite tactical differences, and despite the US-led occupation's attempts to dominate Iraqis by inflaming sectarian and ethnic divisions.
Audit reveals abuse of $9bn works funds
Suzanne Goldenberg in Washington
Tuesday February 1, 2005
The Guardian
An official US audit provided evidence yesterday of widespread corruption in postwar Iraq, finding that America's occupation authority failed to keep track of nearly $9bn (Ł4.8bn) in reconstruction funds.
The scathing report by Stuart Bowen Jr, the inspector general for reconstruction, said that while the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) was careful to monitor the spending of US taxpayers' money in Iraq, it failed to provide proper oversight of projects paid for with Iraq's own funds.
The critique added to warnings from US and international auditors about weak financial controls in Iraq, and growing evidence of cronyism and fraud.
Proof positive that
Bush is a papist
Bush is a Fenian
Bush is a bogtrotter
The new George Bush nickel ...
Reverse side and Obverse side
... plus the secret original design they wouldn't let you see!!!
Bush insists on flying Fenian tricolour in White House and hands bowls of shamrock to bemused visiting dignitaries.
Poor wee Rachel seems to post as she thinks, in bitty little staccato brain farts.
"An official US audit provided evidence yesterday of widespread corruption in postwar Iraq, finding that America's occupation authority failed to keep track of nearly $9bn (Ł4.8bn) in reconstruction funds."
So even if this were true Rachel (which it isn't) what the hell do you care? It's our money and we can do whatever we want with it.
WHO WON the Iraqi elections? The formal counting won't be over for days. But the result's already clear. Iraq won.
And who lost? Well, a full list would take up all this site, but, for starters, I would say that the people who seemed a little glum yesterday morning include rachael, Saddam Hussein, Robin Cook, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, George Galloway, Osama bin Laden, Douglas Hurd, Bashar al-Assad, Menzies Campbell, Jacques Chirac, BBC News and Current Affairs, Robert Fisk and Sean Penn.
On Sunday Iraq enjoyed freedom. And enjoy seems to be the mot juste. Iraqis celebrated their chance to vote, revelled in it, embraced it. But for Robin, George, Douglas, Menzies, Jacques, Sean, Rachael and those who joined them in opposition to the Iraq war there can't be any great cause for celebration, can there? For none of this happened in their name!
Soren, had enough grun bottles today? I am not quite getting your little brain farts, either.
Son, ya just get all brain-froze up on your little penninsula (or island), eh?
Keep your posts to a reasonable number Rachel or we'll start lobbying Zeyad to ban you again. We've been overly tolerant of your obsession and it's time to rein yourself in.
Tammy, Kev, my dears, recall the mantra:
Lalalala, Bush lied
Lalalala, Amerika is evil
Lalalala, bile and venom
Lalalala, my mind is made up
Lalalala, to hell with facts
Lalalala, Lalalala, Lalalala
Well Kev, if Bush and Blair had followed the advice of Robin Cook, Lord Hurd of Westwell and Menzies Campbell, there would be no elections, no acts of astonishing bravery from Iraqi citizens determined to vote, no hope at all of a democratic and free future, however distant that may seem at the moment.
Instead, Saddam would now be entrenched in power with sanctions lifted and the freedom to use his oil revenues to fund his plan for a renewed and expanded WMD programme.
The al-Qaidists will then disappear into thin air (or go back to Saudi Arabia).
That'll be really helpful !!!! At least they can't do any damage to oil supplies there eh Italian !
Ok, admittedly he's from dubious stock (the invader Strongbow and the traitor Mac Mhurchadha)
Amusing letter in The Guardian the other day showing that geometrically extrapolating back 25 or 32 generations would exceed the population of Ireland making isolating any one family from the gene pool a bit dubious
Strong government or representative government... your choice. Tories and Labour both bitch about this when in opposition... so where's the new PR system? Funny how they both lose interest once they are in a position to do something about it.
PeteS | Email | Homepage | 02.01.05 - 2:44 pm | #
PR is crap....they use it in Northern Ireland to rig the ballot.......no PeteS but having constituencies the same size might start.......it takes 25.000 votes to elect Labour MP; but 40.000-100.000 to elect a Conservative...........and Charles Kennedy has a very small population - is it 12.000 or so ?
No need for PR - just one-man-one-vote in equal size constituencies
Well Kev, if Bush and Blair had followed the advice of Robin Cook, Lord Hurd of Westwell and Menzies Campbell,
Douglas Hurd, formerly of NatWest involved with Milosevic in privatising Serbian assets......also tied into various Arab banks.......the man who refused to aid Bosnia when the Serbs were ethnic-cleansing..........................Mr Trustworthy..........
Menzies Campbell - rent a quote QC..........and Robin cook the man who abandoned The Queen on a State Visit to India to fly home to his Secretary/Mistress..............the man depicted by his scornful wife (now ex-) as being in love with a whisky-bottle
"Problems found in nearly every post election investigation, all of which favored the re-election of the President, include: voting machine shortages; ballots counted in secret; lost, discarded, and improperly rejected registration forms and absentee ballots; touch-screen machines that registered “Bush” when voters pressed “Kerry”; precincts in which turnout was suspiciously high, including many which had more votes recorded than registered voters;
precincts in which the reported turnout was suspiciously low; and high
rates of “spoiled” ballots and under-votes in which no choice for president was recorded."
Again Rachel, what the hell do you care? It wasn't your election. Moreover, it's complete crap. No irregularities were determined in any significant number and I can tell at least one bogus complaint from above. On a touch screen vote, the name appears when touched, but it isn't entered until the voter presses the enter button. So even if Bush's name appears on the touch screen by mistake, the voter can cancel the vote and re-enter the name. Sounds like you're amassing an entire library of fraudulant "facts" Rachel.
Tammy said, It's our money and we can do whatever we want with it.
Do try to keep up, Tammy. It wasn't American money - it was money that already belonged to Iraq - the Americans just happened to find it in Saddam's palaces. And instead of spending it on ensuring a reliable electricity and water supply, say, the US occupiers spent it in all directions around without keeping ANY accounts.
I would not care if it was your money but it wasn't. Your country stole it from Iraq.
All construction funding came from the US government coffers Rachel. None of Saddam's money has yet been spent on Iraqi reconstruction contracts because of legal issues regarding ownership. The only money that has currently been spent in Iraq is that authorized by the US congress.
Do try to keep up Rachel.
You're a moron Rachel.
Thanks for the blog Zeyad. I will continue to read your site with interest. However my infrequent excursions into comment will end.
This has become Rachel's blog site. She prowls through the web looking for proof of her hate. I foolishly have followed up on her suggested reading. Rachel exercises no critical judgement as to the source or the content of material she finds.
Finds some corruption, well that’s a new one, she finds a missing ballot box, unbelievable. She declares the US incapable of winning a punch up so they have to fight from the air, wow The US is capable now of never having to put troops on the ground if they wished to fight and win that way, and are very close to not even having to put pilots in the air. But Rachel has no idea.
Never ending conspiracy theories and distortions repeated over and over.
However as a troll she is very successful. She distracts and angers. She has no sense that she is hogging this site and treating Zeyad as a means to her end, sharing the views of RACHEL with the world. She has no sense that it is Zeyad's efforts and intellect and success that give her a window to others. I am beginning to suspect that she doesn't even read Zeyad, just straight to the comments to do battle with the demons in her life given human form in the other participants and friends of Zeyad.
As I started thanks Zeyad will continue to read you with interest and gratitude. I apologise to the rest of you and myself for being distracted by the madness and hate and pain of this woman.
But I will not be controlled by her anymore
As it is said Rachel, get a life.
Don't leave Ros. We need you as an alternate voice from the Brits. I've enjoyed reading your posts immensely and you and Rick are providing the voice of reason to what would otherwise be just demented blather from Rachel.
...having constituencies the same size might start.......it takes 25.000 votes to elect Labour MP; but 40.000-100.000 to elect a Conservative...........and Charles Kennedy has a very small population - is it 12.000 or so ? No need for PR - just one-man-one-vote in equal size constituencies
Well boo hoo. First past the post would be perfect except... except...
Well, except that the Boundary Commissions set up by the House of Commons (Redistribution of Seats) Act 1944 never worked, and the standard it set up (that single-member constituencies would not deviate by more than 25% from the electoral quota) was abandoned in 1947 at the request of the English Boundary Commission. Forget about gerrymandering ... this was due to practical problems.
No need for PR - just one-man-one-vote in equal size constituencies
Fifty-eight years of trying to balance the constituencies (actually more, but lets not quibble) ... is there maybe a lesson to learn here? What you are trying to achieve is proportionality is it not? ... you are just going about it in a demonstrably failed way.
PR is crap....they use it in Northern Ireland to rig the ballot
Rubbish as usual. (Lets not even go into the history of British boundary commissions and Northern Ireland).
The single transferrable vote version of proportional representation guarantees to the maximum extent possible that your vote is used to elect your "most preferred" candidate. It can also be used to vote against your least preferred candidate ... unlike first past the post where a protest vote is a wasted vote. PR allows your single vote to be distributed among multiple candidates if your first choice does not need all of your vote... your whole vote is used.
People who don't use PR/STV usually don't understand it... but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
Washington Post article:
"For the first 14 months of the occupation, officials of the Coalition Provisional Authority provided little detailed information about the Iraqi money, from oil sales and other sources, that it spent on reconstruction contracts. They have said that it was used for the benefit of the Iraqi people and that most of the contracts paid from Iraqi money went to Iraqi companies."
The money that DID come from Iraq's CPA did not come from Saddam's accounts, but from Iraqi oil sales. And as the article from the Washington Post states, Iraqi money granted for projects by the Iraqi authorities has gone to Iraqi companies.
Rachael, will you pack it in, you are embarrassing us Brit's. Do us a favour and have a look at BBC's ceefax....page 110, will ya..When you have read it, will you then please piss off, you are so boring with your pathetic attempts of debating.....read kev's post above....have you noticed that the people on kev's list has shut the fuck up, except you!
Rachel,
There's nothing left for you to do.
The US election is our business, not yours.
The elections in Iraq are under UN guidelines and supervision, so go complain to them. If you feel the US has stolen Iraq's money, tell the UN to put it on their list of investigations right after the oil for food report.
Otherwise, Iraq is a soverign state with duly elected representatives all sanctioned nice and legal like by your marvelous UN; there is no need for insurgency unless they and you want to overthrow an elected government. So take a hike. Iraqis will tell the world what they want. It ought to be obvious they can speak and stand up for themselves. Go join a knitting club.
Sorry Tammy, that was very self indulgent of me. I do know however that to argue with Rachel is like the saying, "punching sponge rubber' No rebuttal is acknowledged, the same venom is repacked and trotted out again. I note from her presence everywhere that she will move it to another post or wait until there are some new voices and shout it again.
I keep telling myself to observe the scroll the trolls message. And I have no problem with others trying to have a go. But the woman's ego dominates, solipsism writ large. So Tammy I do get value from the others and appreciate the information and thoughts that they share. I will however show some self control and never speak of Rachel again or any matter she raises. I will view the voluminous tripe as a blank space that just has to be scrolled past. It would be nice if some clever soul out there could write something that increased the ability of us commenters to manage the flow of information that we get. Say that I could at my own computer have an agent that allows me to say show all except. Anybody got a clue? Techcentral has a comments setup where the comments respond directly to a particular comment. It lists them and the name of the contributor, so you can just click on the commenter and the comment that you want to read. So Rachel and you just select the next one. It also emails you to tell you that a comment has been posted in response to you. Again Rachel, delete rather than follow up. It means too that there is some control of the discussion, in that Rachel's use of this site to discuss her obsessions would die. She could post it but it can be ignored, just not seen. The others can just continue their correspondence about the issues that they choose and that the blogger has introduced. No mad conspiracy theories. Unfortuantely it is very slow and loses the spontaneity of this site and therefore the rapid dissemination of information that occurs.
So back to can anyone improve the haloscan so that we have some control over our interaction with others. It would help with those sick cyberstalkers as well.
"An official US audit provided evidence yesterday of widespread corruption in postwar Iraq, finding that America's occupation authority failed to keep track of nearly $9bn (Ł4.8bn) in reconstruction funds."
The CPA is an IRAQI authority Rachel. It is not the "AMERICAN" authority. If the CPA does not do a good job in it's accounting, that's their affair, not ours. We can offer our help, but ultimately the Iraqis are free to make their own gains, and their own mistakes.
That's always an option Ros. It was done on Hammorabi's once. But I'm glad to know you're not leaving us. I would sorely miss you and Rick.
Zeyad
congradulations on mention on BBC last night, if you manage ot read this far down + well done on elections
alan
Congratulations and it is great to hear from you.
Stay safe!
"The CPA is an IRAQI authority Rachel. It is not the "AMERICAN" authority. If the CPA does not do a good job in it's accounting, that's their affair, not ours. We can offer our help, but ultimately the Iraqis are free to make their own gains, and their own mistakes".
If I'm not mistaken, CPA stood for 'Coalition Provisional Authority', led by Gauleiter Bremer...
I.e., the US.
Not the Iraqis, at all!
Rachel is not a true Brit-she is a Baathist and her boyfriend is an insurgent. She likes to frighten the Iraqis by saying so many negative things about Iraq, the US etc. Do not believe a thing she spews. She is just sorry she lost her sugar daddy Saddam.
@John - Netherlands, 02.01.05 - 2:17 pm.
First, I'm quite puzzled on why you do not wonder at all about what the opinion on the matter of our host Zeyad might be.
Second, what you call 'the Islamists' (forgetting that al-Sistani, Sadr & Co., the winners of the elections, are Islamist as well)are probably (I'm trying to understand what you said) the Wahabi al-Qaidists. In Iraq they are between 1,500 and 5,000 at the very most, foreigners included, and nobody likes or support them, since in their cynical disregard for the lives of Iraqi civilians they are no better than the US forces. If the cover they use not to be exterminated by the Iraqi resistance itself, namely, the very oppressive presence of the US occupation troops, were blown, they would have no chances at all, anyway.
Third, you write "Soldiers are only effective when they trust in the goals they fight for and the commanders that lead them". Yes, precisely, that's why the present-day ING (called by most Iraqis 'the un-National Guard') was up to now so ineffective; they very well knew that up to the day an elected Government takes control they have no legitimacy at all; nobody is very keen to die as the cannon-fodder of foreign occupiers, namely, the Americans.
Fourth, you write "Patience and perseverance is needed in this hour of the struggle. If there aren't any terror attacks for let's say one and a half year and the Iraqi political process runs smoothly then slowly without too much publicity america can carefully pull back but 25.000/50.000 will even then be necessary for at least a generation". Tell that to the Iraqis, most of whom voted for parties promising to end the US occupation as soon as possible! The Iraqis had more than enough of a struggle in these past forty years, don't you think? And instead of fighting their countrymen who didn't vote, possibly they should strive for national reconciliation and start rebuilding & healing Iraq... The 'struggle' in Iraq has now to cease. And the best way to start doing it is, precisely, to send the US occupiers home.
@Ros
Glad to see you are staying. I actually meant to comment earlier on your post of 01.31.05 - 4:07 pm ... I think you made some very good points about the merits and drawbacks of this sort of blog. Especially, you pointed out its fragility and susceptibility to interference. I wonder if that is the nature of the beast ... after all, if you were to discover a blog whose author posted information of interest to would-be insurgents and bombers you might consider it your duty to disrupt it... regardless of the negative attention you would draw to yourself. Consider how various Americans saw it as a duty to carry out a denial of service attack on english.aljazeera.net when it first went live. Perhaps some see it as an Allah-given duty to do the same here.
Regarding your post of 02.01.05 - 5:24 pm ... one minor observation is that people often seem effectively incapable of "scrolling the trolls"... the funniest phenomenon is the inability to resist the "I'm ignoring you now" message. However, the main point is that whatever about modifying the haloscan software to "personalise" your blog-reading experience -- which would require co-operation from haloscan -- it sounds like a relatively straightforward proposition to provide such filtering from another web or desktop-based application. The comment format here is relatively easily parsable ... I wrote stuff months ago to automatically download all of Zeyad's comments sections (also those of Alaa, the Mesopotamian) and perform various statistical analyses of comment patterns, e.g. most prolific commenters by frequency and comment size etc. Identifying and filtering out "unwanted" comments based on coarse criteria would probably not be too difficult. For instance, a function to "display blogger's latest post plus associated comments less those written by people I don't want to read" would probably take a half hour to write. However, as you pointed out in yours of 01.28.05 - 7:25 am, there are more appropriate ways to eliminate problem commenters but which, unfortunately place more administrative burden upon the blog writer.
An Italian,
Did you see Ali Fadhil's predictions? He doesn't think Allawi will be elected either.
The Unified Coalition List: 30-35%
Allawi's list: 20-25%
Itihad Al Sha'ab (the communist party): 10-15%
The Kurdish Alliance: 10-15%
Al Yawir: 4-5%
Al Pachachi: 2-3%
Other Kurdish parties, Turkmen and other minorities: 4-5%
Small democratic parties: 4-5%
Individuals and others: 1-2%
Ali thinks the front runner is Hussein Al Shahristani, a nuclear sientist from the Unified Alliance. That name is ringing a bell with me. It seems like his name was brought forward for some position before. I wish I could remember.
"If I'm not mistaken, CPA stood for 'Coalition Provisional Authority', led by Gauleiter Bremer...
I.e., the US.
Not the Iraqis, at all!"
As I recall, the CPA (members elected by Iraqis) was turned over to the Iraqis in the middle of 2004 and has been governed by the Iraqis since then.
Awesome. Congratulations. Thanks. I linked your post:
Life More Abundant: The Elections - In the Words of Iraq
Hello
see my recent 3 posts.
my blog=http://iraqidoctor.blogspot.com
"Consider how various Americans saw it as a duty to carry out a denial of service attack on english.aljazeera.net when it first went live. Perhaps some see it as an Allah-given duty to do the same here."
You really are a horse's ass aren't you Pete?
I would maintain that very few of us "Amerikans" on Zeyad's blog have any inclination to deny aljazeerah's operations on the net, and don't have any inclination to deny same to anyone with an an objective mind.
We do, however, have an objection to those that have a concentrated desire to propogate a hatred for Americans world-wide AND for those abetting anti-american factions throughout the world.
Excuse us for being a little sensitive, but we don't really like having our innocents blown to bits on a calm September day, or in the middle of Baghdad where the people sworn to protect our country are busy, instead, trying to protect Iraqi citizens from fatal harm.
But as Ireland is prennially neutral, and that translates into the fact everyone else in the world has the duty to protect your ass from harm, (chiefly the Brits), I suppose you can afford to appear condescending and surrepticiously judgmental.
I've been musing about what sort of mental calculus must be occupying the minds of the Iraqi insurgents post election. Unlike Zarqawi and his merry band of psychopaths, those ex Baathists probably have family and friends who are sporting purple thumbs. It is probably dawning on some of them that they cannot defeat the force that is the determined courage of millions of Iraqis. I know I'm incurably optimistic, but I am staying alert for evidence that they are laying down their arms and rejoining civil society.
Congratulations to you and all Iraq. Whatever the future this is a victory for all decent men and women from the people of Iraq.
Thanks!
@Bridget, 02.01.05 - 8:58, 9:02 & 10:04 pm.
Yes, I read Alě Fadhil's predictions. I wonder in which list two of the Fadhil brothers were candidates (either Allawi's or al-Yawer's, I'd bet). They didn't tell their readers (or the Iraqi voters, at that).
As for al-Shahristani, the US (& the UN Brahimi) in June wanted to have him either as President or PM of the 'Interim Government', but he refused.
As for the Iraqi insurgents (not the crazy al-Qaidists, who'll move out of Iraq pronto), if the new Government declares that it wants to solve the situation in political terms (as opposed to Allawi's sabre-rattling & to Bush's 'bring them on') and in an inclusive way, and if it arranges for the Coalition troops to start withdrawing (getting out of the cities & stopping any patrols as a first step), then I think the insurgency will end. Apart from a few Saddam fanatics (who are surely a risible minority in the resistance), provided that there are guarantees that the occupation is going to end, that the prisoners are released & compensation paid to the killed & maimed by the US, and that there will be political space for them in a democratic Iraq, the bulk of the insurgents may well take part in the next electoral appointments.
@Tammy, 02.01.05 - 9:03 pm.
"As I recall, the CPA (members elected by Iraqis) was turned over to the Iraqis in the middle of 2004 and has been governed by the Iraqis since then".
No, Tammy, you are dead WRONG (& it doesn't surprise me one bit, from the Web encounters we had earlier on)!
As its very name says (to everybody but you), the Coalition Provisional Authority, led by Bremer, was a US thing (with one or two Brits as window-dressing). It ruled Iraq May 2003 to June 2004, then it was dissolved. It had no Iraqi members; neither its members were elected by ANY Iraqi. The $9 million of 'displaced' funds have to do with the CPA, NOT with any Iraqi.
So your post was quite stupid & misinformed.
Zeyad,
Congratulations to you and all Iraqis on the election turnout.
Quite often, over the past several months, I have read your blog and noticed that you seemed pessimistic regarding the chances of Iraq achieving democracy.
But this post of yours, in the aftermath of the election, is all positive. I hope your optimism continues and that this optimism is well-founded.
An Italian,
Regarding the billions of dollars "unaccounted for" in Iraq.....
I listened to an interview of Paul Bremer yesterday. He explained that he did not spend this money using the normal safeguards because it would have caused long delays in appropriating the money and that such delays would have had a terrible impact on Iraq's economy, already "flat on its back," as Bremer noted.
Bremer also said that he wanted Iraqis to spend the money instead of having Americans spend it all, even if the result might be less "accountablity" to the American taxpayer.
You can make up your own mind on this, of course. Some people are determined to take an anti-American attitude towards everything.
@PeteS,
"You really are a horse's ass aren't you Pete?", & "I suppose you can afford to appear condescending and surrepticiously [=surreptitiously] judgmental" (Tammy, 02.01.05 - 9:49 pm).
Do not get angry with poor Tammy; you should know by now that she is just a Baboon (yes, I know, in the Emerald Island baboons are to be found only in zoos, and haven't got Internet access!).
I believe the Fadhil brothers had their own list of 12 names, with Ali being at the top of the list and Mohammed second. If they ever joined anyone else's list, they never said so. I had the sense that Ali has tried to distance himself from Allawi a bit, so I would be surprised to learn that he had joined Allawi's list. However, I would be very pleased to learn that one or both of them had done so and been placed highly enough to obtain a seat.
Sistani will be pulling many of the strings of the new government, and he strikes me as a brilliant man with the potential to be a great statesman. If he is the man I think he is, many of the steps you describe are going to take place because they are the things that should happen, not because the insurgents demand it. I don't know why you seem to think that most Americans would object to an inclusive new government and an orderly and sensible end to the occupation, one that insure Iraq is able to defend against both internal enemies and external.
@Mark, 02.01.05 - 11:10 pm.
"You can make up your own mind on this, of course. Some people are determined to take an anti-American attitude towards everything".
I haven't 'made my mind up' on this matter at all (neither did I comment on it).
I was just answering to some rather gross factual inaccuracy (the CPA being... 'Iraqi'! LOL!) that an American Bushist (an exceptionally stupid one, I have to admit) brought forward in order to attack another poster (& the poor idiotic thing had the cheek to reiterate it!).
George F. Will wrote:
"Isn't it pretty to think so?" Those concluding words of Hemingway's "The Sun Also Rises," a novel of postwar disillusion, became a generation's verbal shrug, expressing weary melancholy after a war waged to make the world safe for democracy. Eighty years on, there of course remain reasons for wondering whether Iraq's stride toward popular sovereignty will lead to a durable and admirable democracy. But it is a humbling privilege for the rest of us to share the planet with the defiant Iraqis who campaigned and voted, and the coalition's superb warriors who made voting possible.
@Bridget, 02.01.05 - 11:20 pm.
From what one could possibly surmise from an ITM post after the 'Alě split' in late December, their 12 candidates list was withdrawn due to negotiations to include some of their candidates (which ones I do not know, but they said they were different from those on the Website) in a bigger list. The results of such negotiations were not revealed. Hope your friends will clear up the mystery, one day.
You write, "I don't know why you seem to think that most Americans would object to an inclusive new government and an orderly and sensible end to the occupation".
Of course I don't think that of 'most Americans', but of the present American Administration. If (according to the PNAC project, and to reality on the ground) they want to keep 12 to 14 permanent bases in Iraq (they are building them), and to attack other ME countries (Iran, Syria, Lebanon, you name them - from what they themselves are saying) using Iraq as a launching pad, any sort of really democratic 'inclusive Government' in Iraq, with no US occupation, would be unwelcome by now.
Much better a long-lasting insurgency or civil war (better if sectarian, with the Sunnis against the Shias), with the US military 'helping the democratic Govt.' of their choice, Vietnam-like, 'staying the course'. To that end even the usage of 'death squads' & false flag operations could be countenanced (we saw the beginnings of it - and the personalities of both Allawi & Negroponte are not exactly reassuring on this point).
I do truly hope I am mistaken.
Those concluding words of Hemingway's "The Sun Also Rises," a novel of postwar disillusion, became a generation's verbal shrug, expressing weary melancholy after a war waged to make the world safe for democracy.
Oh, nonsense. Hemingway's pessimism was a pose adopted from Joseph Conrad - the most influential English novelist of the period before WWI. Hemingway had fun during the war, and most of the 'lost generation' writers didn't even fight.
George Will pretends to greater erudition than he possesses.
An Italian,
You need to lay off the spy novels for a while.
Relax for a moment and realize that the United States, along with its coalition allies like Great Britain and other nations, toppled one of the world's most brutal dictators and has assisted the Iraqi people in developing democracy in Iraq.
For this the Bush administration ought to be praised, not scorned, in my opinion.
Perhaps you think Saddam should still be in power?
Italian,
"June 2004, then it was dissolved. It had no Iraqi members; neither its members were elected by ANY Iraqi'
The fund misuse brought up by Rachel today has been directly linked to the Iraqi iterim government under IRAQI control, not BREMER's control. The US turned over control to the interim government in mid-2004. The contracts in question were granted by the IRAQI interim government. All contracts using US funds have been coordinated under full US auditing practices and disclosures. The only funds now in question were directly under Iraqi control.
Shows you how wrong you can be doesn't it Italian. Incidentally. You forgot to change your nom de plume Italian from "little pervert" to Italian.
I suspected that was you playing your little game all along. Perhaps you should write for Penthouse magazine when you're not being playing at being spiritual advisor at a local California Mosque.
"I was just answering to some rather gross factual inaccuracy (the CPA being... 'Iraqi'! LOL!) that an American Bushist (an exceptionally stupid one, I have to admit) brought forward in order to attack another poster (& the poor idiotic thing had the cheek to reiterate it!)."
The CPA sure as hell weren't American Italian. They were IRAQI! Born and bred. They were intially appointed by the Coalition from IRAQI citizens and IRAQI ex-patriates. I'd call that Iraqi myself, but what are you trying to hide?
And I'd leave off the "baboon" comment. You've been using it as Not-Anonymous, and several other personalities. It IDs you as Jeff from New York said, "like DNA".
Also Italian/Amer
I'm not a Bushist. I'm an unaffliated voter with tendencies to vote Democratic.
@All.
Could somebody (of any faction) please disabuse this lame & rotten troll Tammy ("You've been using it as Not-Anonymous, and several other personalities") once & for all, in the name of truth & decency?
And, by the way, childish scumbag & lying baboon Tammy, "The CPA [Coalition Provisional Authority] sure as hell weren't American Italian. They were IRAQI! Born and bred". Ooooh yeah!
How can anybody be lying so openly & absurdly?
Only a Troll.
Strange, though, that this rather illiterate Troll Tammy shows up & targets me when I cross some 'red line' of things some 'people' wouldn't like to be said & read... Like when I passed on the 'outing' of that other not so innocent troll Jeffrey Schuster, or when I talked about the Italian military in Nasiryia, or when I mentioned the US 'dirty tricks' in Vietnam & Italy (and, now, in Iraq). As this I wrote just above, addressed to another poster: "Much better a long-lasting insurgency or civil war (better if sectarian, with the Sunnis against the Shias), with the US military 'helping the democratic Govt.' of their choice, Vietnam-like, 'staying the course'. To that end even the usage of 'death squads' & false flag operations could be countenanced (we saw the beginnings of it - and the personalities of both Allawi & Negroponte are not exactly reassuring on this point)".
I submit this to Zeyad's attention. Maybe establishing some form of e-mail registration for this comments page wouldn't be so wrong, after all...
People who don't use PR/STV usually don't understand it... but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
PeteS | Email | Homepage | 02.01.05 - 4:41 pm | #
Unfortunately PeteS I understand the voting systems, and the d'Hondt Formula......I just find it strange that the United Kingdom has different voting systems in different parts....Mitterand changed the system in France to PR and then back to FPTP to gain party adcvantage..........why Scotland has 72 MPs is unclear, and why why the UK has 661 MPs is unclear with 33% of them on the Government payroll.............Scotland is the most over-represented part of these islands with higher per capita public spending than even Northern Ireland.................................PR means List.....List means the Party chooses the candidates
childish scumbag & lying baboon Tammy
"An Italian" calls people monkeys, baboons, niggers, and all sorts of delightful terms........he/she/it constantly hurls abuse.....it is reminiscent of those Blackshirts/Brownshirts of the past..........using such terminology is indicative of the mental state of this individual........clearly if a suitably extremist ideological party came along An Italian would be there throwing rocks and abusing anyone who did not agree totally with 'The Way'.............
Zeyad in case you are reading my comment which i doubt of :P
I've changed my blog name
"An Italian" calls people monkeys, baboons, niggers, and all sorts of delightful terms"
and furthermore has the cheek to call other posters "trolls", demanding that Zeyad take action against them. The spirit of 'Il Duce' lives on!
For some light relief, have a look at this article written by an "expert" on Afghanistan in October 2001.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/p...-
102273,00.html
Apparently, the war in Afghanistan was doomed to failure because the Afghan mujahadeen would rally round the Taleban to defeat the US and its Northern Alliance stooges. Is this not similar to some of the pro-insurgency propaganda being spouted by 'Il Duce' and others? Fortunately, the Iraqi people have rallied to the ballot boxes rather than the insurgents. They are also supporting their brave soldiers, who
are growing in numbers and effectiveness every day because of the first-class training they are getting from their US and British allies.
oh rachel stuff it will you ? As an Iraqi I am sick and tired of reading your comments. Iraq does not need the likes of you to advocate for our cause. I am not gonna bother commenting more on your silly posts cause I see the people here are doing a fine job of it already. Just wanted to tell to all those binladin-anti-war- saddam apologists - jazeera loving - suicidal terrorists : LEAVE MY COUNTRY ALONE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Congradulations to Iraq and it's first step into the democratic era after so long.
I see the standard nay-sayers have made thier regular appearance and neeped into the ultrasonic about Bushitlerhallibutonnegroponteirancontratwoallbeefp
attiesspecialsaucelettucecheese and other such drivel. Get a mit and catch a clue: No one is listening to you at this point. Nor do you deserve to be listened to, since you 'agruement' is retreaded arguments from thirty to fourty years ago.
It is my hope that we hold the line and help Iraq stabilize itself. There are many in the world who do not want Iraq to succeed. Some are next door neighbors. Some live in New York and the EU. Treat them as what they are and things will be far clearer.
To a Finer World.
we'll have a proper gander later, when the dust dies down!
Not only is that picture not of a real black American human being (but of a toy soldier doll) - cf very clear images on the Raed in the Middle blog, judge for yourself - the hoax appears to have been mounted by someone who cannot read or write Arabic. Someone has pointed out, on Raed's blog earlier today: "look at the writing in the back it is drawn not written the whole thing is a hoax from somebody that doesn't read or write in Arabic!!!"
Another comment says, "The whole thing is just a hoax perpetrated by
deceitful Americans ... To try to get Arab media to fall for the hoax and
publish details as if it was a true story, thus allowing the American
demons to label Arab media as sources of false information ... To try to
drum up interest in the toy itself as doubtless thousands of them remain in
American warehouses as the slump in recruitment to U.S. armed forces in
America's black communities meant that 'little black Uncle Sam
cannon-fodder dolls' were not selling like the proverbial hot cakes over
the kafir's Christmas season. ... To try to make the American public not
care if their soldiers are captured or killed as most Americans are so dumb
they will now probably dismiss any further real accounts of their soldiers' deaths or capture as hoaxes too." And,
"To inadvertently reveal to anyone who reads between the lines that the
so-called messages allegedly emanating from so-called 'terrorist groups' in
Iraq posted on that website are most likely the products of American
intelligence sources too. 'American intelligence' is like that - stupid."
Sounds plausible. Of course, the hoaxer might have been trying to make a fool of the US media.
Sorry, that anonymous at 4:42 was me.
thank you for posting our thoughts. i have so little faith in what i see reported on the news it is good to hear it from a party that is involved. reading your thoughts moved me to tears. i am hopeful that things will start to get better.
d-
an american in baghdad
Tammy, the CPA was headed up by Bremer. Please check your facts, instead of wriggling and twisting. Honestly, you are shamefully sloppy and irresponsible.
Ambassador L. Paul Bremer, III was named Presidential Envoy to Iraq on May 6, 2003 and in this capacity is the Administrator of the Coalition Provisional Authority.
Tammy, focus:
"The Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) is the name of the temporary governing body which has been designated by the United Nations as the lawful government of Iraq until such time as Iraq is politically and socially stable enough to assume its sovereignty. The CPA has been the government of Iraq since the overthrow of the brutal dictatorship of Saddam Hussein and his deeply corrupt Baath Regime in April of 2003.
In addition to protecting Iraqi territorial integrity and working to provide security to the Iraqi people, the CPA has committed itself to rebuilding all aspects of Iraqi Infrastructure so that, upon turnover to the first democratically elected government Iraq has ever known, that government will assume authority over a country ready, both internally and externally, to function economically, provide basic services to its citizens, provide for its own defense, and to play a responsible role in the international community of nations.
The Authority is a coalition of many Nations from all over the world, encompassing every major religion and ethnic group. It is led by the United States and the United Kingdom. A list of the nations which are part of this multi-national coalition of states which have undertaken to play a role in the financial, material and military assistance of Iraq is available here.
According to the Agreement of November 15th, 2003 between the CPA and the Iraqi Governing Council, by June 30, 2004 the new transitional administration will be recognized by the Coalition, and will assume full sovereign powers for governing Iraq. Upon this transfer, the CPA will dissolve." [My emboldening - see, Tammy, CPA was not handed over the the Iraqis to run.]
Note also, the US doesn't mind roping in the UN when this suits her aims - see above, temporary governing body which has been designated by the United Nations.
Americans finest in overkill mode again.
Anger as American troops kill four inmates in jail riot
American troops killed four detainees and injured six others to quell a riot in a prison camp in British-controlled southern Iraq.
The deaths, on the day the elections were held, drew an angry response from the Iraqi interim government who demanded the troops should be put on trial if they were found to have used excessive force.
The US authorities said the soldiers had used "lethal force" on the inmates corralled into compounds, surrounded by razor wire, at Camp Bucca after failing to quell rioting. They also admitted that no American soldiers had been seriously injured by stones thrown by the inmates and the disturbance had lasted just 45 minutes before the decision was taken to open fire.
Bakhtiar Amin, the Human Rights minister, said he has sent a delegation to the camp in southern Iraq to investigate. "If we are convinced there was no justification for the degree of force used then we want them to be tried," he said. "If there is a mistake, then those in charge should be brought to account."
British military officers said that they were "disturbed" by the Americans resorting to live rounds so quickly, but claimed they were in no position to intervene. Camp Bucca, near Umm Qasar, holds 5,300 prisoners - more than Abu Ghraib jail in Baghdad - some of whom have been detained for more than a year without trial.
There have been repeated allegations of abuse at the prison, which had not attracted the publicity generated by the cases at Abu Ghraib. On at least one occasion in the past British soldiers have complained that Americans had shot prisoners held in "cages".
... Allegations of abuse at Camp Bucca have been made by detainees and military personnel. One prisoner, Hossam Shaltout, a Canadian citizen and US resident, said inmates were regularly beaten and humiliated - stripped naked and made to simulate sexual acts. In a compensation claim filed by his US lawyer, Mr Shaltout said guards had placed scorpions on his bound body. He alleged that Military Police Master Sergeant Lisa Girman had punched him and kneed him in the groin after he went on a hunger strike.
Withdrawal of american troops is absolutely no solution because the enemy they fight is fighting not only the infidel americans but just about everybody who is not a completely deranged or miserably misled hardcore sunni.
That means if the americans leave the terrorists will attack the rest of Iraq even more than they are already doing now.
That's one reason another reason is that also goodwilling Iraqi's must learn to deal with each other's wishes on a democratic basis: that's a totally new concept for the islamic world in general and the arab world in particular and they need a mighty supervisor to prevent them for unnecessary mistakes like sjiites pushing a religious agenda and the kurds pushing independance too much.
Also secular Iraqi's deserve their "right to party" in the new Iraq.
That's the core question: How get every Iraqi enough for themselves without hampering the rights of others too much.
Iraqi democracy is (pretty literally) a newborn baby that needs nurturing for a long time to grow up to a sensible rational adult.
You don't leave a beautiful but extremely vulnerable baby to itself, especially after a very painful difficult pregnancy of almost 2 years.
It would be criminal neglect in my opinion.
As with humans the next few years will decide to what kind of adult Iraqi democracy will grow up which not only depends on america but even more on Iraqi's themselves:
I said it earlier: are they able to jump over their own shadow.
They showed tremendous courage in voting: I hope they show the same courage in compromise when necessary.
If everybody wants his way without taking care of others nobody gets his way (besides a few in control desperately oppressing calls for more justice).
The culture of everybody against everybody combined with a stifling sectarian group pressure must change in working together when needed combined with lot's of room for unique individualism.
Not the tribe you belong to must define your indentity but the life you chose.
It's often put aside as too western: I think it's deep down the best way for all humankind.
And because basically everybody is the same it can be reached by all people when they really really want it.
It requires lot's of sacrifices in the beginning but many many rewards in the end.
John - Netherlands: I don't know why you underestimate the Iraqis' own ability to deal with the terrorism. If the US pull out - and they MUST - then Muslims will be dealing with Muslims; the US presence is a destabilising factor. As our new Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, Sir Ian Blair, has said: it is communities that fight terrorism, and the police are there to back them up.
The US presence in Iraq is a "honeypot" for would-be martyrs. Apart from costing the US billions of dollars and the lives of thousands of their sons and daughters.
Rachel, a Brit in London can be reached at
Western Way
Thamesmead
London
SE28 OEB
Tel: 020 8331 4400
Fax: 020 8331 4401
http://www.hmprisonservice.gov.u...%2C15%2C254%
2C0
Visiting information for Belmarsh can be seen below.
Social Visits
Saturdays: 09:00 to 11:00 (Ordinary and VP prisoners)
Mon - Fri: 14:00 to 16:00 (Wednesday VPs only)
Weekends and Bank Holidays: 14:00 to 15:45
Additional Information:
Visits must be prebooked at least 24 hours in advance. To book a visit please call 020 8331 4768. Ramand prisoners are entitled to 2 visits per week. Convicted prisoners can have 2 visiting orders per month. A visiting order must be received before booking a visit to a convicted prisoner. Up to 3 adults may visit a prisoner at one time (plus children). Please arrive 30 minutes before the visit time.
Official Visits:
Mon to Fri (except Bank Holidays): 09:15 to 11:30 and 14:00 to 16:15. Evening sessions are limited to Counsel Visits from 17:15 to 18:45.
Booking Information
Social Visits:
Booking number: 020 8331 4768.
Open Mon to Fri: 8.00 - 16:30
Sat: 8:30 - 15:45
Sun: 13:00 - 16:00
Closed lunchtimes.
Legal Visits:
Booking number: 020 8331 4768
Open Mon to Fri: 8.00 - 16:30
Closed lunchtimes.
Visitor Centre
Belmarsh have a visitor centre with facilities that can be used before or after a visit. These include a refreshment bar, childrens play area, toilets and baby changing area. The staff and volunteers will be happy to help with questions you may have.
How to get there:
* The nearest stations are Woolwich Arsenal and Plumstead. Catch a bus from Woolwich Arsenal station to the prison, or walk from Plumstead station.
* From Woolwich Arsenal Station catch the 244 bus to the prison. The bus stops are situated directly outside the exit from the railway station
* Approach from M25 Dartford Bridge/Tunnel:
o Heading South - over Bridge: Take first slip road immediately after tolls, (NB head for 4 left hand tolls when coming over the bridge). Signposted A206. First exit at roundabout and come over the motorway. Then to * (below):
o Heading North - towards tunnel: Take last exit (Junction 1) before tunnel signposted A206 Crayford/Erith. Then to * (below):
+ *: Roundabout over M25 - signposted A206 Crayford/ Erith. University Way.
+ Roundabout end of University Way/ dual carriageway signposted A206 Crayford / Erith.
+ Into Bexley / single carriageway / roundabout.
+ 4th exit signposted Erith A206 Crayford/Erith
Roundabout end dual carriageway
+ 2nd exit signposed Woolwich/ Thamesmead A206
+ Roundabout 2nd exit signposted A2016 Thamesmead, Plumstead, Woolwich
+ Series of roundabouts signposted A2016 Thamesmead, Plumstead, Woolwich
+ Dual carriagew
Rachel in The Guardian
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/h...03702%
2C00.html
John - Netherlands: I don't know why you underestimate the Iraqis' own ability to deal with the terrorism. If the US pull out - and they MUST - then Muslims will be dealing with Muslims; the US presence is a destabilising factor.
The Iraqi President said yesterday that US troops (and other members of the coalition) should stay.
Iraq's diplomat to the United Kingdom was on the show BBC Newsnight two evenings ago and said that American troops are not a luxury at this point, they are a must.
Rachel,
Don't you get it?
America has the most powerful military in the entire world and Iraq needs America's help to defeat the vicious terrorists.
No wonder Iraq's president doesn't agree with you.
But you don't give a fig about the Iraqi people, do you?
You wanted Saddam to remain in power.
http://www.drudgereport.com/
Is this for real ? They kidnapped GI Joe and threatened him in a video ?
How about we sure Rachel for plagarism. I mean, she lifts entire articles from other sources without permission. This is illegal in the UK too, is it not?
Rachel,
you are very wrong about thinking the terrorists only fight americans: they hate and want to destroy everybody that isn't a hardline sunni.
They probably hate kurds and sjiites even more than americans and jews. The last ones get at least some "respect" (better awe) because of their might and military power.
They fear the day Iraqi sjiites and kurds will be strong enough to crush them. Then their cause will be lost forever. Especially if the sjiites and kurds are smart enough to get the moderate sunni's on their side.
They are arab fascists and even your fierce anti-americanism wouldn't help you if you would be in their hands.
Remember the (rather anti-american) british woman who did only peaceful good things for Iraq:It didn't make a difference at all: they slaughtered her anyway.
The BBC website is publishing the election diaries of several Iraqis and a US soldier. The election day entry of Lt Bryan Suits indicates that some Iraqis are grateful to the US for the sacrifices its soldiers have made on their behalf. Check out the link below.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middl...ast/
4225889.stm
Homer from London. I have been reading Lt Bryan Suits' entries for some months, whenever the BBC does one of the Iraq diary things. His rather complacent reports do not "chime" with most other accounts.
Anonymous, at 02.02.05 - 7:56 am, is probably Rick, because he appears to be fixated upon HMP Belmarsh. Anyone turning up there - or ringing them - looking for me is going to look like a deranged nincompoop.
Parallels with 1984 (the book by George Orwell)
Someone has at last done the legwork for this (and the rest of us a favour) - cf the Democratic Underground forums - in the US/Iraq context.
* Forced suppression of sexual desires = abstinence only education [but contrast with sexual torture by US guards at Abu Ghraib etc, see "double think", below]
* War with Eastasia/Eurasia = War on terror
* hanging of records = changing of reasons for war on Iraq
* Double think = war is peace, invasion and occupation is liberation, etc.
* Thoughtcrime = branding anyone not toting party line as "unpatriotic"
* Room 101 = Abu Gharib/Gitmo/Camp Bucca
* Newspeak = the simplicity and narrow range of vocabulary used to tout gov't programs
* [US] Government lies about how it has increased literacy rate, living conditions, and economic conditions.
* Outer Party = lower Republican party members - useful idiots
* Proles = the rest - poor, immigrants
* Government surveillanace = Patriot Act
* Goldstein = bin Laden or al Zarqawi
Pass it on.
Correction of typo:
//* hanging of records = changing of reasons for war on Iraq//
* Changing of records = changing of reasons for war on Iraq
Rachel,
history seems to have passed you by.
I am not sorry for that.
G*d bless Iraq!
* Goldstein = bin Laden or al Zarqawi
Hey neat - Bin Laden is Jewish so is Zarqawi..........!!!
Poor old Eric Blair he thought "Goldstein" was Lev Bronstein aka Trotsky............but for Rachel he is Bin Laden/Zarqawi............maybe Osama believes in Zion ?
@Italian
"You really are a horse's ass aren't you Pete?", & "I suppose you can afford to appear condescending and surrepticiously [=surreptitiously] judgmental" (Tammy, 02.01.05 - 9:49 pm).
Do not get angry with poor Tammy; you should know by now that she is just a Baboon (yes, I know, in the Emerald Island baboons are to be found only in zoos, and haven't got Internet access!).
I've no intention of getting angry. In fact I've no intention of doing anything at all, seing as how:
a) My comment was addressed directly to someone else
b) Tammy so completely and utterly missed my point that I couldn't even being to address her comment. Or perhaps it would be more accurate to say that she simply made pretty much the same point as I did, choosing to assume that my version was made in a condescending and judgmental way. I think she, not I, needs to deal with that.
Anyway, Italian, it would take more than one sensitive American accusing me of anti-Americanism to make me anti-American (if you get my drift) ... or even anti-Tammy. Since Americans are so fond of reminding us Europeans how evilly anti-American we are, it should also be obvious that those of us who haven't gone with the cultural flow are also less likely attribute one rash deed or comment to a national character defect.
Rachel, you little shitass, I know Bryan and his reports do, indeed "chime" (odd word to use but then maybe a Britism) with the reports of people who are actually out there with the people.
BBC edits his reports quite a bit, tho.
Suits is very clear - the true heroes are the Iraqis and the men and women who have fought to bring liberty. They are ecstatic, happy to be liberated, despise the terrorists and especially their fat and comfortable western supporters.
The true gutless cowards are the pissants like yourself, Italian, Susan, Bush Lied and similar dogshit slime who are being swept away. All your pathetic vomiting commentary becomes ever more putrid in the glaring light of the elections. Since you are demonstrably a supporter of the terrorists and clearly desired that thousands of Iraqis would have died trying to vote, you and your pathetic pals can just sit and stink up the atmosphere until you fade away.
Does anything at all good happen in your life?
"I have been reading Lt Bryan Suits' entries for some months, whenever the BBC does one of the Iraq diary things. His rather complacent reports do not "chime" with most other accounts."
Always a conspiracy, isn't it Rachel? By the way "1984" does have some loose parallels to what's going on now, but it has much more in common with the Stalin-era Soviet Union. Especially considering that's basically what Orwell was writing about. I'm sure you would have loved Stalin, he was about as paranoid and hate-filled as you seem to be, and he was anti-American to boot!
Well, maybe some light is dawning on at least one dunderhead, but not on another:
“In his Jan. 26 article, published in more than 20 newspapers, including the Toronto Globe and Mail, Mr. Soros said he agrees with Mr. Bush's goal to spread democracy around the world, "and [I] have devoted the past 15 years and several billion dollars of my fortune to attaining it," but accused the president of "Orwellian doublespeak."
"Mr. Bush is right to assert that repressive regimes can no longer hide behind a cloak of sovereignty," wrote Mr. Soros, 74, who made his fortune as an international currency trader. "But intervention in other states' internal affairs must be legitimate."
There has been no comment since the Iraq elections from Mr. Moore, the Academy Award-winning filmmaker who characterized the Iraqi insurgents as "Minutemen," and predicted "they will win."
Of course, Soros made his load destroying economies of small nations and Moore got his load from Hagen Daz and lies, but sometimes even crooks like these get a bit of a clue.
http://www.washtimes.com/nationa...23527-
1015r.htm
Poor old Eric Blair he thought "Goldstein" was Lev Bronstein aka Trotsky............but for Rachel he is Bin Laden/Zarqawi............maybe Osama believes in Zion ?
Rick, you've given me this image of Zarqawi singing "By the Rivers of Babylon".
Come to think of it, he probably does weep when he remembers Zion.
Stalin, he was about as paranoid and hate-filled as you seem to be, and he was anti-American to boot!
Nick | Email | Homepage | 02.02.05 - 11:24 am | #
But if you read Khrushchev's memoirs you will find Stalin was partial to cowboy movies, whereas Hitler liked "Tales of a Bengal Lancer"................hard to imagine what they talked about when they supposedly met in that railway carriage in Poland..............
...Stalin was partial to cowboy movies, whereas Hitler liked "Tales of a Bengal Lancer"................hard to imagine what they talked about...
Sacred Cow Herding?
Mister Soros idea of legitimacy is asking one dictatorship like china if we are allowed to dethrone another one like saddam's.
That's no law, that's mob-rule.
Found this through the Democratic Underground forum, published today:
After the Election
The Future of Iraq and the US Occupation
By NOAM CHOMSKY
It begins,
Let's just imagine what the policies might be of an independent Iraq, independent, sovereign Iraq, let's say more or less democratic, what are the policies likely to be?
Well there's going to be a Shiite majority, so they'll have some significant influence over policy. The first thing they'll do is reestablish relations with Iran. Now they don't particularly like Iran, but they don't want to go to war with them so they'll move toward what was happening already even under Saddam, that is, restoring some sort of friendly relations with Iran.
That's the last thing the United States wants. It has worked very hard to try to isolate Iran. The next thing that might happen is that a Shiite-controlled, more or less democratic Iraq might stir up feelings in the Shiite areas of Saudi Arabia, which happen to be right nearby and which happen to be where all the oil is. So you might find what in Washington must be the ultimate nightmarea Shiite region which controls most of the world's oil and is independent. Furthermore, it is very likely that an independent, sovereign Iraq would try to take its natural place as a leading state in the Arab world, maybe the leading state. And you know that's something that goes back to biblical times.
What does that mean? Well it means rearming, first of all. They have to confront the regional enemy. Now the regional enemy, overpowering enemy, is Israel. .. the business press the last couple of days probably reflects the thinking in Washington and London: "Uh well, okay, we'll let them have a government, but we're not going to pay any attention to what they say." In fact the Pentagon announced at the same time two days ago: we're keeping 120,000 troops there into at least 2007, even if they call for withdrawal tomorrow. ... We just have to do it because we have to accomplish our mission of bringing democracy to Iraq. If they have an elected government that doesn't understand that, well, what can we do with these dumb Arabs, you know? Actually that's very common because look, after all, the U.S. has overthrown democracy after democracy, ... If you look back at the military journals in the late Sixties, they were writing about how we gotta get this army out of here or the army's going to collapsemuch like the head of the Army reserves said two or three days ago. He said this is becoming a broken force.
The rest is worth reading, too.
Here is a brilliant analysis of the phoney "elections" in Iraq. The whole exercise was a carefully stage-managed charade, and few people actually voted other than those who were forced to the polls or threatened by loss of their food rations. THE WHOLE THING WAS A SHAM!
Now Bushitler and his Zionist masters will move on to their next campaign to conquer the Middle East for Israel.
Impeach Bushitler!
Bring the Troops Home Now!
Power to the People!
Once you've read Noam Chomsky on Politics you've lost all interest in linguistics
Bush Lied | Email | Homepage | 02.02.05 - 1:31 pm | #
You are such a wag........truly satirical
Democratic Underground. How typical. Their motto might be:
"If it is Amerika, if it is Bush, if it is Republican, if it is moderate Democrat, if it is not totally whacked out left, if it looks at facts and reality, then it is pure evil; now, what is the question, point or issue?"
This is like reading the Völkischer Beobachter to get news on the European situation and the Jewish Question.
But then, you knew that, didn't you Reichsfuhrer Rachel?
What a lugnut.
Bush Lied,
Power to the People! I think the Iraqis did that. But for slime like you, that does not count, does it?
Nice to chew on your own colon, is it?
changing of reasons for war on Iraq
Actually, many of the supporters of the war on Iraq gave several good reasons to toppling Saddam:
(1) The lack of liberal democracies in the Arab world. President Bush made a speech to the American Enterprise Institute talking about how Iraqis are fully capable of running their own affairs in an electoral system.
(2) Oil for dictators versus oil for millions of people. This is related to point (1). But when the Left says "No blood for oil," they are neglecting to mention that Middle Eastern dictators get much of their money from oil sales and much of the oil revenue is used to maintain their fascist ideology.
(3) Terrorism: The ring leader of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing was an Iraqi who fled to Saddam's Iraq after the attack and Saddam refused to turn him over to the Clinton administration. Also, Zarqawi was in Saddam's Iraq prior to the 2003 Iraq war.
(4) WMD: It was the conventional wisdom of the world that Saddam was a WMD threat because of his prior behavior.
PeteS,
One good argument against proportional representation in an electoral system is this example:
If 20 percent of a nation's population adheres to an extremist ideology a political party advancing that ideology is likely to earn 20 percent of the parliament.
But a "winner take all" system forces political parties to pander to voters who don't share all of their views on issues. This encourages a spirit of compromise before a parliament is even seated.
@Mark, 02.02.05 - 8:05 am.
You wrote: "The Iraqi President said yesterday that US troops (and other members of the coalition) should stay".
My mindless fanatic, of what relevance is what the -unelected- ludicrous 'Iraqi President' al-Yawer, now severely punished by the Iraqi voters, says? Or what his even more ludicrous partner, the Minister al-Shaalan (to most Iraqis, on a par with 'Comical Alě'), says?
Do wonder what al-Sistani will say, instead.
Baghdad Blogger - Video Reports from Iraq
Salam Pax's film to be showcased at the International Film Festival in Rotterdam this month.
n the film Pax takes viewers into the homes of Muslim women and a packed liquor store where customers hoard beer and spirits ahead of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan.
He gauges the opinions of ordinary Iraqis struggling to survive. On a day trip, he visited monumental and now deserted architectural landmarks, erected by Saddam Hussein, which were previously out of bounds for the public.
@Homer from London, 02.02.05 - 2:38 am.
You wrote that 'An Italian' "furthermore has the cheek to call other posters 'trolls', demanding that Zeyad take action against them. The spirit of 'Il Duce' lives on!".
Now, man, I use to read your comments to other blogs, & their content made me doubt your intellectual honesty. Now it's quite patent that you are dishonest & a liar. What is that 'Tammy' in your opinion, other than a troll? Go & read PeteS' post above.
Some, instead, who should have known better, called 'Rachel' a troll, above. Whatever one might think about her debating skills, it is quite obvious that she is NO troll (she has had even e-mail correspondance with Zeyad himself, if I'm not mistaken, so for sure she's less of a troll than you & me).
Mark,
That's an interesting perspective, but it doesn't cut it for me. It is too easy to turn the tables and argue that if only 20% of a population have an enlightened ideology, they equally have no chance of representation in government. Setting aside for a moment the issue of who holds what ideology, you are simply arguing in favour of the tyranny of the majority.
Coming back to the issue of extremist ideology, there are two problems with your idea:
a) who gets to decide what constitutes an extremist ideology?... under your definition the answer is obvious: the majority. It is a different matter if the ideology in question is incompatible with democracy and fundamental human rights... but then the minority party are unlikely to be part of the democratic process at all since they would be operating illegally.
b) refusing to allow a minority any representation in government effectively excludes them from meaningful political dialogue. This may persuade them that they are justified in resorting to extreme (and illegal) measures to make their voices heard.
Your point that a "winner take all" system forces parties to compromise is limited. They must compromise only in order to get elected... they certainly do not have to compromise in the day to day operation of government once they win their landslide victory. In other words, they must make promises but may not deliver. (That is, admittedly, only a short-term recipe for success, but political vision often looks only as far as the next poll).
Proportional representation in government forces compromise. Political parties are rarely so homogenous that there is no variety of thinking on particular issues. The voter in a PR system can actually choose the composition of the goverment according to his or her policy preferences by selecting candidates from multiple parties. A "winner takes all" system is also a "one size fits all" system, since if there is no party that matches your politics your only choice is the "closest fit" rather than the best mixture.
In the winner take all system the winning party just is having a free game in politics after the elctions, because once the victor you don't have to deal with other parties and interests anymore, especially minority interests are too often neglected.
Even minorities within parties that "cannot" flee to the other side (like christians in the republican party) can be more or less neglected after the elections.
Didn't Bush denied a national ban on gaymarriage after his election.
"bait and switch" is the term for it I think.
in the proportional system in most cases you need to compromise with other parties.
In practice you get a lot of middle ground policies with every apart voice it's own representation.
That's why they did it in Iraq: apart from the case the sjiite alliance get's 51% they always have to make deals with the kurds and the secular ones.
Every vote counts so it doesn't matter if you as a secular person are living in a religious district.
In the winner take all when you are a minority vote your vote is pretty much useless: like being a democrat in texas or republican in new york.
You can as well go on a picknick on election-day cause your vote is thrown in the garbage anyway.
Only in so called battleground-states everybody needs to go to the polls to be able to make a difference.
The votes from the secular Iraqi's living in holy cities like najaf or kerbala deserved to be counted even if there is a religious majority around them.
Every vote should count and then the proportional system is the best.
To avoid too many little parties one can put a minimum required votes let's say 5% for a seat but only if there's an unworkable ammount of them.
In my country a meditationparty and last time a pro-animal party almost got one seat.
But in practice the most votes go to the 3 or 4 biggest and most rational parties.
I wondered when the anti-US posters were going to start quoting Noam Chomsky, a man who described the US liberation of Afghanistan as a “silent genocide”, having decades earlier denied the real genocide committed by Pol Pot in Cambodia. Chomsky is simply a marxist liar with a pathological hatred of America. The following site gives a lot a material debunking Chomsky.
http://plaza.ufl.edu/slasher/
ant...antichomsky.htm
As for his comments about Iraq, he is simply talking crap, as usual. It is perfectly possible for a country to have cordial relations with Iran without being anti-American. A case in point is Afghanistan, whose very pro-American president recently visited Iran.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world...ast/
1838368.stm
Finally, the plan to keep US troops in Iraq until 2007 is obviously contingent on the agreement of the Iraqi government. President Bush has publicly stated that US forces with withdraw if asked to by the Iraqi government. Such provision is also made in the UN mandate for the multinational forces in Iraq.
@John - Netherlands, 02.02.05 - 8:32 am.
"Remember the (rather anti-american) british woman who did only peaceful good things for Iraq:It didn't make a difference at all: they slaughtered her anyway".
Some cheek you have, John! How can you be sure it was al-Qaidist terrorists who killed Margaret Hassan? All the indications point instead into another direction (some 'counter-gangs' possibly run by Allawi's friends). Even the 'al-Zarqawi' al-Qaidist group indeed demanded that she be released unharmed, contrary to what you write.
Rachel:
I disagree with what you say about 95% of the time. Sometimes I even find it outrageous. I'm sure you'd have me pegged as a "fascist" and a "warmonger."
But I want to say that I greatly admire your ability to take it on the chin and come back, and back, and back. I can find a lot of critical things to say to you, but I think--on those grounds at least--you deserve a "Hats Off!" So, Hats Off! to you, Rachel.
May you "See The Light" one day, but--whether or no--long may you prosper! If ever I have a blog, I'm going to invite you to come and give me hell.
Jeff
I wondered when the anti-US posters were going to start quoting Noam Chomsky
On which point, the "quotation" might have been limited to a hyperlink rather than a lengthy excerpt so that those who prefer to scroll past anything with the word Chomsky in it could do so at high speed.
... even "Bush Lied" observes that etiquette!
'Il Duce' spluttered:
"Now it's quite patent that you are dishonest & a liar. What is that 'Tammy' in your opinion, other than a troll? Go & read PeteS' post above."
(i) I offered no opinion on whether 'Tammy' was a 'troll'. I simply pointed out the hypocrisy of someone like you calling her one.
(ii) Since you admit that the designation 'troll' is a matter of opinion, it is not logically possible to be lying when expressing such as opinion.
@Italian,
You've got to admit -- Homer from L has a point (about that hypocrisy thing).
Its bizarre, but I've got to agree with Jeff ... Rachel is just about the most consistently courteous person around here. If only we could have less of the long quotes and more personal opinion, however deluded.
PeteS "If 20 percent of a nation's population adheres to an extremist ideology a political party advancing that ideology is likely to earn 20 percent of the parliament." Mark is inaccurate....few systems are so proportional and most use a hurdle - the German system uses a combination of PR and FPTP - with a 5% hurdle to block extremists........
Mark once a party gets 20% it is hard to consider it "extremist"......the LibDems are not so bad..........the real issue about PR is that it uses a Party List....so as long as Nutcase #.1 is top of the List he is bound to be elected and you have no choice of candidates within the Party List
Even the 'al-Zarqawi' al-Qaidist group indeed demanded that she be released unharmed, contrary to what you write.
An Italian. | Email | Homepage | 02.02.05 - 2:55 pm | #
and how do we know that for certain ?
@PeteS (02.02.05 - 2:41 pm) & John - Netherlands (02.02.05 - 2:48 pm).
I'm 100 % in agreement with your arguments in favour of proportional representation.
In post-WW2 Europe the PR system worked on the whole very well.
I'd add to your arguments that in such a system all voters are able to feel that they are represented. Such is not the case with the 'first past the post' system: theoretically if in a country adopting it there were 20 parties, and each of them were to get about the same percentage of votes in all constituencies (i.e., about 5 %), it is possible -theoretically again- that the party getting a fraction more than the others could get a two-thirds majority in Parliament with only something more than 5 % of the votes (so representing only one out of 20 of the voters). It actually happened several times, both in Britain & in the US, that the party that got in had in fact a minority of the popular vote.
And, yes, in a PR system 'extremist' parties are compelled to make daily compromises in Parliament, which considerably dilutes, over time, their 'extremism'.
That's why the PR system (the most radical one, with a single constituency for the whole country & lists without preferences) chosen for the elections of the first Iraqi Constituent Assembly is the best that could have been chosen (both in terms of representation & of compromises to be done).
8 vs 8,000,000
8 knuckleheaded murder bombers; 8,000,000 voters.
Big failure, this sham vote.
LOL!
@Rick, 02.02.05 - 3:16 pm.
"'Even the 'al-Zarqawi' al-Qaidist group indeed demanded that she be released unharmed, contrary to what you write.' 'and how do we know that for certain?'"
We know because the 'al-Zarqawi' group released an official statement, veryfied like the others by the same group were.
@PeteS, 02.02.05 - 3:14 pm.
"You've got to admit -- Homer from L has a point (about that hypocrisy thing)".
Yes I do (at least on the logical level). But there are matters of substance to be considered as well...
"I've got to agree with Jeff ... Rachel is just about the most consistently courteous person around here. If only we could have less of the long quotes and more personal opinion, however deluded".
On this I agree with you one hundred percent (I do feel that Rachel would gain a lot by abandoning her long quotes).
In the winner take all system the winning party just is having a free game in politics after the elctions, because once the victor you don't have to deal with other parties and interests anymore, especially minority interests are too often neglected.
Sorry John, it does not work that way. You get coalitions under FPTP as Britain shows - 1915-22, 1931-1940, 1940-1945 and a pseudo-coalition Lib-Lab 1974-1979..........
Israel goes so Coalition mad with its PR system that there is hardly an opposition in Parliament; and the Grand Coalition in Germany with CDU/CSU/SPD 1966-69 led directly to the Baader-Meinhof Terrorism.
http://www.janda.org/c24/Reading...ll/
Farrell2.htm
http://www.electoral-
reform.org....westminster.htm
We know because the 'al-Zarqawi' group released an official statement, veryfied like the others by the same group were.
An Italian. | Email | Homepage | 02.02.05 - 3:23 pm | #
Yes and he's a reputable man of honour whose word is his bond...(ha ha).....the kind of man you seem to admire Italian .......never heard you say anything derogatory about him.......
In post-WW2 Europe the PR system worked on the whole very well.
Where has it worked well ? Don't say Italy or we cabn all fall about laughing.
the real issue about PR is that it uses a Party List....
Rick, unless I am misunderstanding you, you are confusing PR with one its specific forms, the List System.
Now, I've got to admit, that until I read this link>, I didn't realise how common the List System was. However, here in Ireland the Single Transferable Vote system (also used by Malta) is mandated by the constitution.
I can very easily vote (and have done in the past) for a party candidate, while voting against his party colleague (Nutcase #1, as you say). Under STV you allocate exactly that fraction of your vote to your preferred candidate that he/she needs to get elected... in other words if Candidate A exceeds the electoral quota by 33%, implying that he/she only actually needed three quarters of your vote, then the other quarter of your vote is given to your next preference, Candidate B. If Candidate B is elected and you still have some fraction of your vote, it is given to your next preference, and so on. If Candidate B is not elected, all of your remaining quarter vote is given to your third preference and so on. Even if you only care about Candidate A, you are wise to fill in all preferences, thereby effectively voting against your last preference.
Voila... maximum choice and no nutcases. (In practise some simplifications involving statistical sampling of excess votes is used to avoid having to track all those fractional votes, but the divergence from "perfect PR/STV" is slight).
All this said... it is easy to point to examples where proportional representation does not work well. I would argue that this is a sign of a divided society, not just an ineffective government. A society that has no unity of vision, or that is sufficiently polarised, or has any significant percentage of nutcases cannot function. (... as you and I well know, Rick).
Ros, you are a pompous, self-important, mischievous witch, or in a previous post pea brain Ros. now I have to apologise for calling Rachel utterly stupid, but most of the time I addressed what she said not who she was.
Honestly, you are shamefully sloppy and irresponsible, Rachel speaking of Tammy so I am not all that concerned that I may be violating Rachel’s standards.
I am not discussing Rachel however I am interested in your and Jeff's understanding of courtesy.
I don't think it is courteous to be a racist, and Rachel's generalising and stereotyping of Americans is nothing but racism.
The implications that corruption is something that Americans are big on, that killing is something that Americans are big on, crystallised in that long diatribe about 1984 and the US. It is not possible however convenient a tool to separate the US people from those who they choose to govern for them. The Rachel’s are racists and as such badly undermine the moral standing of their own position.
If I were to select an unfailingly courteous I would nominate John from the Netherlands. He doesn't get stuck in polemics he responds to what others say and he tries to do so in a courteous way.
Poor little Rachel, and I have to say it boys, she doesn't need your support and she doesn't deserve it.You are judging courtesy merely by the robustness of the language. And you are patronising the other correspondents on this post. A little more concern for Bridget and Tammy re this thing that keeps appearing though would be nice.
Reminds me of the intellectuals in this country who use long words obscure terms unknown references and a patronising tone to explain why the Australian public is racist, selfish, incapable of exercising their vote responsibly and we need a new political system to compensate for their inability to learn from and obey their betters.
Shut up you fucks in response allows them to say see what we mean.
This is an interesting quirk of Ros: telling people what they should think and be. Hey, Ros, let people make up their own minds. And why do you call the men you disagree with "boys"?
Dear An Italian, - On this I agree with you one hundred percent (I do feel that Rachel would gain a lot by abandoning her long quotes). - your wish is my command. I'll try to remember to be good.
Jeff, 02.02.05 - 2:59 pm. Erm, thanks, I think.
Ros, you're right (about courtesy being more than robustness of language) and I thought about that point before I commented. Nevertheless, if one racist tells you that people of blue skin are inferior because the gene for blueness is part of a haplotype block with the gene for intelligence, while the next racist tells you to f*ck off you blue bastard ... which one is likely to be worth the effort to try to reason with? Case in point, made in all humility ... two years ago I would have counted myself as virulently anti-war, and unconsciously I believe, was somewhat anti-American (there's a lot of propaganda out there after all). A large part of my change of mind was down to interaction on this blog ... foremost among them being with Lee C. as it happens. Now there were quite a few people who were less than generous about my relatively innocent presuppositions. I think its fair to say that, at least in my case, I tend to react to reasoned argument better than to rants. You can be right, and still be a wanker. You can also be wrong, and still deserve the same respect you accord to others. (And by the way, I am certainly not making any claims for my own pathetic style).
Oh, those terrible infidels! The tyrant Bush will give his State of the Union address tonight. He will tell all lies, of course!
But, those unbelievers! They really know how to rub it in! Those who support this evil election carried out by the occupiers and sons of harlots and apostates and stuff, they are really nasty people. Some of them will dip their unbelieving fingers into purple ink and hold up their vile fingers during the evil Bush’s speech!
Talk about giving me the finger! Hoo, I’ll have to beat a few women, order a martyrdom operation or two against a few pre-schools, rape a goat and have a little boy brought into the cave just to get over it.
Oh, Rachel, where are you when I need you!
because once the victor you don't have to deal with other parties and interests anymore, especially minority interests are too often neglected. Can’t agree John. Because on eof the fundamentals of democracy is that you are only the victor for a limited time. Here in Australia 3 years, and despite the urgings of our politicians Australians firmly rejected an extension in a referendum. We will wear the sub optimal outcome of short periods of government for the protection it gives us. And just as once they are elected they are in theory without constraints from the public for that period so are the individual polis. Any way Europe is slowly but surely handing over government to the bureaucrats of the EU. I note also that the Un is very keen on the idea that representative democracy as is the political system within the great democracies has had it’s day and it is now time for the participative democracy of the world as identified by and presented as policy by the NGOs. Help.
Mark your winner take all one is of interest to me. I used to be involved in industrial relations and in Australia that meant that all parties had a proportional presence in negotiations and that included every union, and that meant a cast of thousands. Achieving compromise was very difficult and the Arbitrators would try and come up with compromises that essentially meant that the status quo reigned and nothing changed or improved or reduced conflict because no one was happy.. The Japanese have a system where the Arbitrator chooses one of the scenarios put before the court and this drives considerable negotiation and compromise before, as the danger is he will take the "other'.
In Australia we have both systems at our federal level. But the government is formed by the lower house. As we have proportional representation in the senate then small parties pull seats. And up until the last election they had held the balance of power for many years. They told us and themselves that as they had pulled the under ten percent of the primary vote that we had all agreed that we wanted them to say what happened. No we didn't 90 % of us wanted them to go away. Because of the temptation to thwart the government the other major party would reject legislation with these parties which are by their very powerlessness reactionary. But of course we would then have elections and, the public chose one position, it does work, political parties do try very hard to work out what the public will vote for. In fact a problem for us is that marginal vote so counted that special interest groups have a far greater say than is politically appropriate. Indeed of course this applies to all, some pundits point to the Muslim vote in Europe it’s size and it’s monolithic nature and its distortion of European policy.
"Because on eof the fundamentals of democracy is that you are only the victor for a limited time."
Exactly... that's one of the reasons why lots of countries see such regular change of government. Political parties sacrifice long term vision for short term electoral gain and broken promises (the "after all we can't do anything unless we're in power" syndrome). Meanwhile, public amnesia absolves the current opposition for their failures when last in government and rockets them to success again.
PeteS I don't think when being condemned for your ethnic group and that is what the people of the US are with gusto and pride, then a constant diet of condemnation, for which no explanation or rebuttal is accepted does lead people to wonder whether it is their genes or their culture that is being denigrated. Indded it makes no difference, Sunnis are murdering Shias for their ideas not their genes. I think Tammy for example has reacted with remarkable constraint to a very discouteous discourse from a very discourteous person and as I said I am not inclined to see sweet generous and thinking Rachel. Rachel does not afford others respect, certainly not the other women.But if that is how you boys want to see it, so be it.
Osama % Co! LOL!
Ros,
When I speak about my own country then I can say little parties never hinder big party-coalitions.
The lesser important chamber mostly check laws according to the constitution.
I think in a proportional system people have a broader political menu they can chose from:
In Holland one can chose
almost communist (small)
pro green/environment (small)
centre leftwing (big)
centre rightwing (christian) (big)
liberal lefwting (small)
liberal rightwing (big)
"very" rightwing christian (very only in issues like abortion/gays/prostitution, socio-economically they are often compassionate) (small)
But in all political systems people must be willing to work together as a first condition.
Ros, I don't consider Rachel to be racist, because the American people are not a race, nor are we an ethnic group. I'm also not saying that her comments painting all Americans with the same brush are very courteous ones. I wonder if she realizes that if you took the average cockney speaking Brit from MiddleofNowhere, England, they would be no more intelligent then the backwoods hick from Alabama type that she apparently sees as representing all that is America.
An Italian isn't innocent of this either, as he has posted many times about how he sees Americans as primates, nothing more then baboons (I'm sure the residents of inner cities all across this country would love for you to say something like this to their face, by the way)
Their comments about the stupidity, arrogance and jingoism of the American people reek of the pot calling the kettle black in lieu of their own comments.
Yes it would appear that elected governments sacrifice long term vision for short term electoral gain, the lure of the numbers in the ballot box is so distracting. Interestingly the current government of Autralia is being criticised by the left as they realise that the current Prime Minister now our second longest serving in our history has been achieving a long term agenda by increments and the ability to read the electorate and respond. All the time they were saying that he was an evil, unintelligent and uncaring short man the Australian public was saying, you are doing what we want, though possibly some what miffed at being told that their stupidity wasn't clear to them as it was to the left.
grumblings aside, that is what democracy can do well, change in response to circumstances against I assume a benevolent dictator who can run with the long term vision thing. But to state the bleeding obvious what ever it's shortcomings the democratic form of government delivers the best possible for us within an imperfect world.
As our stupid evil PM said the joy of democracy is that we do have changes of government by the decision of the people and it is done without revoluiotn or bloodshed and in an orderly manner. may the Iraqis have the chance to do so, whatever form their democracy takes. Personally I suspect that the faults of democracy are quite acceptable to them considering their experience of the alternative.
Homer, you son of vileness, you infidel, thank you for your kind note.
My dear servant, a wretched unbeleiver Amerikan congressman, Dennis Kucinich tells the truth that there are only two things that make an election legitimate (not that any are because it is against Islam to be free or to vote): media and international monitors. Voters don't count, only media and monitors.
Where was Micheal Moore? I ask you? He should have been here to cover the election and lend it credibility, oh my golly gosh, yes, just like that wonderful, and TRUE!, documentary he did. And where was Jimmy Carter? No monitors! No Carter!
God love Dennis, before He throws the infidel into the flames of the pit!
Eeeyahhhhh!
Oliver Kamm, London Times columnnist and Labour Party member, has written about the Iraqi elections in his blog. Many of his previous postings are worth reading as well.
http://www.oliverkamm.typepad.com/
Nick as an australian I live in a society who along with the other Anglo societies in the world I would agree are very mixed in race and religion and cultural backgrounds. But when does one becaome an ethnic group, At some point in history an ethnic group was a collection of other ethnic groups that coalesce allowing for an ethnic group to emerge. Sorry very clumsy. That the Us is so radically different to most socieities now and in the past in that the specifics of the backgrounds and ideas of its people are constantly growing and changing does not I believe mean that they are not an ethnic group, just a radically different kind.
terrorists choose to try and kill Australians because we are Australins, I don't think that their view is that we carry an Australian passport, rather that we are imbued with certain ideas and practices that are common to us all. That we are an ethnic group of some sort.
What Saddam did or did not do - often with our backing - cannot justify what the West does when it has that same power. America and Britain have reduced Iraq to chaos, for which Sunday's election is a significant but meagre compensation. But those now elected will acquire real authority only if they are not tainted as puppets of a foreign occupation. The Iraqis will re-build their wrecked country according to their own lights. We have already shown that we cannot do it for them. They will start, however messily, the sooner we leave.
At present there is only one country which has a coherent strategy for Iraq. That country is Iran. Is that to be our legacy?
Otocon, you are so right.
Why, my neighbor describes the relative peace of her country, the nice life her father made for them under trying circumstances. Only a few issues like a police roundup of suspects once in a while, an occasional scream from the prison. But mostly peaceful - go along to get along. Just close your eyes to something upsetting if it does not concern you directly.
Then, of course, it all went to hell in a hand basket. The Americans and British invaded and peace evaporated.
Bombings, battles, disappearances. Confusion and death all around. Terror. What would become of them?
Food and medicine were scarce. People died who would have lived if only the invaders had stayed away and minded their own damned business!
But, no, they had to bring war.
Damn those two nations’ leaders for it.
Roosevelt and Churchill should have left France alone!
"What Saddam did or did not do - often with our backing - cannot justify what the West does when it has that same power. America and Britain have reduced Iraq to chaos, for which Sunday's election is a significant but meagre compensation. But those now elected will acquire real authority only if they are not tainted as puppets of a foreign occupation. The Iraqis will re-build their wrecked country according to their own lights. We have already shown that we cannot do it for them. They will start, however messily, the sooner we leave.
At present there is only one country which has a coherent strategy for Iraq. That country is Iran. Is that to be our legacy?"
Unless you an Iraqi, these opinions are irrelevant. The elected government of Iraq will decide how their country should be re-built and when the multinational forces will leave. As to whether democracy is a 'meagre compensation' for the war that brought it about, that is a judgement that Iraqis can make for themselves. I suspect that people who have lived under a dictatorship have a rather different perspective to those to take freedom and democracy for granted.
@Ros - "Sunnis are murdering Shias for their ideas not their genes". I totally disagree. A minority of Sunnis are murdering or directing others to do so for their own evil and selfish gain. The rest are doing it because someone told them to and they don't have the wit to think for themselves. Which is not to denigrate them for their gullibility - we're all easily led by those with whom we have a "natural" affinity (clan, tribe, nation etc.), no matter what we would like to think. A prejudice-free human is a mythical creature.
A partial antidote to being "used" by others is a half-decent education and a healthy dose of cynicism. This cuts both ways - posters on both sides of the "debate" here (me included) have swallowed whole swathes of propaganda ... they should not be surprised when it turns out to be unpalatable to the "other side". As much as Rachel needs to check the affiliations of some of her frightening sources, the "America brought democracy to Europe" crowd need a reality tweak too.
"I am not inclined to see sweet generous and thinking Rachel" ... probably a good call; me neither. "Rachel does not afford others respect, certainly not the other women. But if that is how you boys want to see it, so be it"... hmmm not sure I appreciate the gender-centric implications of that, however that healthy dose of cynicism tells me that nom de plume is at best an unreliable guide to gender in this forum. Anyway, I am also not inclined to see Rachel as a rabid murdering thug (or words used here in the past to that effect), rather an extraordinarily misguided Christian pacifist. It detracts from the moral force of the argument unless you save allegations of being a rabid murdering thug for people who are fairly obviously rabid murdering thugs.
I am inclined to agree with Nick that anti-Americanism as seen in Europe cannot be "racism"... primarily because you would have to then count a significant proportion of Americans as anti-American racists. I swear to Christ that the next American (especially a comedian) that comes to MY country and apologises for their redneck president and their rightwing hicks and how all those votes in Ohio were stolen is going to go home with their presumptuous leftwing ass in a sling. I would also like a break from this "Europeans all hate us" crap (which an American at the next table to me in a restaurant recently felt compelled to point out.... it was OK though, they just wanted to apologise for the redneck president and the hicks and the votes in Ohio). Europeans don't all hate you. Your leftwing/rightwing (delete as appropriate) neighbour hates you. Sort your shit out at home before you worry about Europe. Anyway, there I am ranting ... see how easy it is. Anyway, my point is that we are all, for whatever reason, experiencing an extreme divergence of the political poles whether in Europe, Australia or the U.S.
p.s. agree with all your points about democracy.
For those of you who don't know our Prime Minister is John Howard and he is actually 5' 10" tall. he does however have a very short neck without the accompanying build of a rugby league or grid iron player. the left early in the piece tried to diminish him by calling him little Johhny Howard. To their regret I suspect the bit that stuck was Johhny Howard expressed with affection by Australins.
Gor those who are interested Tim Blair has posted the Daily Mirrors front page on the Iraqi election. To be sure I don't quite know whether this is real or a spoof, but it is entertaining. Would be interested to know if it is real. Is the Daily Mirror the paper that was violently opposed to the Iraq war and had a problem with publishing fake photos?
http://timblair.net/
Ps could someone tell me where to go to make it a live link please? Thanks
Rick, 02.02.05 - 3:39 pm.
"'In post-WW2 Europe the PR system worked on the whole very well'.
'Where has it worked well ? Don't say Italy or we can all fall about laughing'."
Yes, Rick, I would point to (among others) precisely the Italian experience of Proportional Representation (List system with preferences inside the list you voted).
It was established at the Constituent Assembly elections of June 1946, and then kept up to 1992.
What was the first most obvious benefit?
That it helped to prevent a most bloody civil war between the Right & the Left in Italy (on 1944-49 Greek lines). And that's what Iraq greatly needs now, as well.
Apart from that, the system proved to be exceptionally stable. Practically the very same coalition of parties ruled from 1947 to 1992 (with some enlargments & changes from the Sixties). Yes, the Government would be 'changed' (actually just reshuffled) every year or so, but the coalition stayed the same.
So a coalition of centre-right parties (the Christian Democrats, the Social Democrats, the Republicans & the Liberals - these last actually Tories despite the name) governed in the Cold War (very cold) years 1947-63, but since to pass any law they had to have the approval of the parliamentary opposition (the two Marxist parties, the Communist and the Socialist), it was a power-sharing rule by Parliament (whatever their respective propagandas might say).
A remarkable stable system, and it prevented civil war (no little achievement).
If you feel like 'falling about laughing', suit yourself.
@PeteS, 02.02.05 - 3:44 pm.
In Europe not just Ireland and Malta, but Belgium and Luxembourg have used the PR/STV system since WW2.
PeteS,
You raise interesting points about the "winner take all" versus "proportional representation" system.
I believe the basic problem with proportional representation is that it doesn't force the individual voter to compromise with oneself.
Here's what I mean......
What if every voter in an election decided to vote for him or herself?
Each voter could plausibly argue that they are voting for the person whom they agree with the most. But such a result would not accomplish much in terms of governance.
At least a "winner take all" (or first past the post, if you prefer) system determines winners and losers.
In the United States, even the winner doesn't have absolute power because we have a United States Senate, a United States House of Representatives and a Presidency.
he does however have a very short neck
Why didn't the left make the Rocky Horror Picture Show connection. Or did they?
PeteS the gender reference is partly because their is an interesting gender aspect to the blogging sphere. I find that these Iraqi sites are one of the few that has a good balance. I have even here however been called dearie and given instructions to shall we say learn and not be emotional. I was particularly irritated with Tech Central for that, basically told by one to go away and read philosophy of science and various scientific papers and then come back and try and join in with the big boys. Foreign Affairs Journal discusses the gender bias in the blogosphere and the dominance of middle class white males. Add to that the fact that a lot of rhe horror about Islamism relates to the treatmant of women and their stautus, not to forget the gusto with which western left males choose to believe without question the whore like behaviour of American servicewomen. Our just returned innocent argues that an American service women squatted over his face and dripped menstrual blood into his face. It has been shouted as proof of the iniquity of the US but it is to me putting a spotlight on the dark souls of many western men and their desire to have proved what jezebels or emotional cripples women are. I am not suggesting in any way that you are the slightest bit inclined like that but I am of the view that gender is a very important aspect of this battle for hearts and souls and it is the case that those protecting rachel are identifying themselves as male. And your reprimands on her behalf are at the expense of the other women. So that is all.
As for anti-Americanism in Europe they may not all hate the US , certainly german business was at pains to make that clear. However it is very disconcerting to discover that 1 in 5 Germans for example believe that Bush and Mossad were responsible for the twin towers, from what in theory is a very well educated populous. The photo of the Pentagon was what persuaded them,
PeteS,
Regarding your rant, I think the big difference between Europe and the United States is ideology.
The US is more libertarian on economic issues than most of Europe and the US has a different perspective regarding the use of military force than most of Europe.
Obviously, this comment is a generalization. There are some Europeans who support lower taxes and less social spending and a more forceful military posture.
@Mark
What if every voter in an election decided to vote for him or herself?
In PR you don't just vote for one person. Just in case you didn't get elected, you would be wise to vote for the person next closest to you in views.
I believe the basic problem with proportional representation is that it doesn't force the individual voter to compromise with oneself.
On the contrary, PR is all about making rational compromises about who you will accept as the least-worst option assuming you can't have your most-best option. "Winner takes all" means that you either vote with the majority or you might as well not vote at all. That's hardly a compromise.
@Ros, 02.02.05 - 5:05 pm (and preceeding).
Now, my opinionated Aussie, it is quite obvious that you are new to this comments page. How could anybody state (in good conscience) something like "I think Tammy for example has reacted with remarkable constraint to a very discouteous discourse from a very discourteous person"???. If you had read all the preceeding posts by this 'Tammy' in earlier comments pages, you would now that the thing pops in just to disrupt any debate, without ever contributing anything (see for instance her/his CPA oh so intelligent & truthful commentary above). And you wouldn't be so discourteous as to mix Bridget up with this 'Tammy'.
Apart from that (but for the same reason - that you are new to this comments page), you took issue with me because I wrote that you were 'speaking through your a**e' while calling me an anti-semite. Now, any reader of these comments pages knows that it would be rather difficult for me to be an anti-semite (especially of the 'anti-Jewish' variety), for genetic reasons, if not for others. And, of course, you were practising the cheap ploy of equating being opposed to a set of policies of the Israeli State (those heralded by Likhud, based on the Fascist ideology of Jabotinsky) with being an 'anti-semite', which is truly a cheap trick.
So, please, Aussie friend, be a bit less opinionated...
PeteS,
"Winner takes all" means that you either vote with the majority or you might as well not vote at all. That's hardly a compromise.
Actually, that ignores the compromises that voters have to make in a "winner take all" system.
Every election people on the far right (like me) have to decide whether they are willing to vote for a mushy Republican like George W. Bush. Lots of right-wingers were upset with Bush for allowing social spending to grow rapidly under his watch.
But many right-wingers compromised and voted for him anyway.
Similarly, many on the far left were upset with John Kerry for voting for the Iraq war. But many of them voted for Kerry instead of Ralph Nader, because they decided that they liked Kerry better than Bush.
Both major American political parties, the Democrats and the Republicans, represent a diverse population.
@Ros ... "I have even here however been called dearie" -- off-topic but you remind me that Iraqi males that have posted here not infrequently address other males as "dear". I wonder is it one of those quirks of translation that something in Arabic most closely resembles this English word. Anyone know?
"the gender bias in the blogosphere and the dominance of middle class white males" ... I have always assumed that is the natural result of Internet usage being led by the middle class geeks who work for the I.T. companies who traditionally had the easiest access. As the net seeps into everyday life as naturally as the phone, that distinction is almost gone.
"I am of the view that gender is a very important aspect of this battle for hearts and souls" - no doubt correct.
"it is the case that those protecting rachel are identifying themselves as male. And your reprimands on her behalf are at the expense of the other women. So that is all." - Rachel happened to be the case at hand. I would be equally vociferous about "stalin" or "An Italian" (although the latter mightn't be quite so "courteous" under the narrow definition discussed earlier 
). Let's be clear -- I think Rachel is so far out on the fringe she's about to fall off the edge.
"it is very disconcerting to discover that 1 in 5 Germans for example believe that Bush and Mossad were responsible for the twin towers" -- I know people who find it disconcerting that half of all Americans believe God created man pretty much in his present form within the last several thousand years. I'm not sure I trust polls like that -- not that they are inaccurate but there are different way people internalise those "beliefs"
I think that many of you are missing the defining difference between the American representative republic form of government and the European parliamentary system. That difference is separation of powers in the American system that acts as a very strong inhibitor of "runaway" government. If you were to read the American Constitution (all 2 pages of it) you would stand in awe of the framers.
PeteS,
One interview with an Iraqi voter demonstrates what I mean.
An Iraqi voter was asked if he voted. He said, "Yes. I voted for the Kurds."
I would argue that ethnic and religious voting is more likely to happen when every minority group need not worry if their party gets only 15 or 20 percent of the vote.
But in a winner take all system, a Kurd might vote for a moderate Sunni Arab or a moderate Shia Arab. To do otherwise might be described as "throwing one's vote away."
Realist,
You are quite right.
The way the American framers attempted to protect minority rights was to use bi-cameralism (two legislative houses), federalism (dual soveriegnty with both states and nation soverign in certain areas), and a specific limits on government power (example: "Congress shall make no law......")
I think that is a better way of building in minority rights than proportional representation.
Elections should have winners and losers. And the ambitions of the winners should be restrained by the ambitions of other election day winners (i.e. US House, US Senate, US President, Governor, State Senate, State House).
Was the Iraq Election like Vietnam 1967? Or America 1864?
....the critics may want to consider the following remarks made in the wake of another closely watched election:
"The overwhelming majority received… and the quiet with which the election went off, will prove a terrible damper to the rebels. It will be worth more than a victory in the field both in its effects on the rebels and in its influence abroad."
"We cannot have free government without elections, and if the rebellion could force us to forego or postpone a national election, it might fairly claim to have already conquered and ruined us."
These statements were uttered more than 140 years ago by General Ulysses S. Grant and Abraham Lincoln respectively after the latter was re-elected president in 1864 while the United States was deeply divided.
@Mark, 02.02.05 - 7:21 pm.
I do not think that what you say about 'winner takes all' electoral systems is correct. Actually experience shows that under that system interest lobbies inside the two main parties (especially in the US case) or little parties (where a 'winner takes all' system compells to create two big coalitions) are able to exert an undue influence on the selection of candidates and on the results.
In Italy, for instance, we passed from a PR/List system to a mixed system (one third of the representatives chosen by PR, but the other two thirds by 'winner takes all') in the early Nineties.
It does not work. While before a small party having a tantrum with its ruling coalition in Parliament would in most cases just lead to a reshuffle in Government, now small parties (often of the most extreme variety, like the racist Northern League, or the anti-clerical Radicals, or three different small Communist & Green parties of the extreme left; or based on clientele/ tribes, like some minor centre parties in the South) are able, out of all proportion to their size & possible electoral support, to impose the candidates they want to the two coalitions by blackmail (either this, or we'll ask our supporters not to vote - we'll present our own distinct candidate in that constituency, making you lose the seat - we'll join the other coalition), and to disrupt & block the work of the Government.
And the 'winner takes all' systems compells most voters either to vote for somebody they do not like - believe - agree with, just in order not to let the candidate of the 'Others' in, or to just stay at home (look at the US experience).
“Terrorists choose to try and kill Australians because we are Australins, I don't think that their view is that we carry an Australian passport, rather that we are imbued with certain ideas and practices that are common to us all. That we are an ethnic group of some sort." Ros | Email | Homepage | 02.02.05 - 5:40 pm |
All the points you made were good ones (I only quoted the above one to try to keep this short) However, it seems more fitting, to me at least, to describe these “certain ideas and practices…” as the Australian culture, rather then the Australian ethnicity. Your question as to when one becomes an ethnicity kind of makes the “culture” label a moot point. Perhaps it’s somewhere in the proverbial middle ground of what we’re both saying. The ideas and practices of a nation, combined with the mixing and assimilation of various races and religions, spawns an ethnic group within the borders of that respective country, separate from it’s original parts. Kind of reminds me of the original sole national motto of the U.S. (before the fear of “godless communism” took over in the 50’s and it was changed to “In God We Trust”) “E Pluribus Unum” meaning “From many, one.”
@Mark - your Iraqi voting example is very relevant. Had that Iraqi not been able to choose a Kurd as his representative he might not be willing to participate in a democracy at all. Given the situation in Iraq as it stands, only a small number of middle-class secular Sunnis and Shi'ites are likely to prefer to identify themselves as "secular" first, and Sunni or Shia second. Everyone else will vote along ethnic/sectarian lines.
Regarding the American constitution ... I have of course read it, along with plenty of stuff on the philosophies of the framers. In addition, every month I have occasion to read a small amount of stuff about U.S. constitutional law. Interesting, inspired in many ways. Minority rights are protected through a balance of powers as you say (not an approach that could work everywhere, though).
While I entirely prefer the U.S. 2-pager to the European doorstopper, there are downsides. Usurpation of powers by the American courts has occurred through narrow and idiosyncratic interpretations of the constitution. Look at the way the anti-establishment provisions are being abused as a prime example! No constitution is immune from erosion over time. (Maybe that's what the Euronuts were thinking about their megaconstitution... plenty of scope for erosion and there'll still be plenty left!).