Thanks for telling us.. My parents voted against too.
Why?
Zeyad
Why? Could you explain? I really would like to understand your decision.
That is the beauty of Democracy. Yea or nay the people of Iraq determine their future.
Thanks for telling us Zeyad. It is good to see you post-- I have missed your voice. May all be well with you.
And you wouldn't have had the right to vote were Saddam still in power.
That's what I would have voted too. I really didn't like the whole religous veto thing, it put too much power in unelected hands. The beautiful thing though is people are voting instead of killing each other in a civil war. Lets hope that democracy works and disagreements will be settled through voting instead of bloodshed.
Malik Hameed, voting in it self does not make life better it is what happens afterwards that determine the events. Do the leaders follow the promises they made to the people, do they follow human right and international law, do they work for the people or do they work for themselves to get richer. Don’t you remember on the top of this government list during the election was having a set date for the occupation troops to leave Iraq, have the Iraqi government done anything about that? Oh yes they said NO date for withdrawal of troops after the election during a visit to Bush. So you see in Iraq it’s what happens afterwards that really determine what outcome we will have.
I would love to hear your reason why. Please consider updating your post.
It was good to hear from you again. I always read your posts. I would like you to tell us your reasons for voting no. I was a little surprised. I would think that this constitution was a beginning point, and that it would be better to go forward from here, rather than have to start again. But that is democracy, and starting over might be the best way to go forward.. We'll see.. Good luck to you, and please start posting again!!
Hey Zeyad, man, welcome back! Where have you been? What's up? You haven't updated this thing in months! Come on back and give us the lowdown on what's Baghdad like these days. You're the best, man. We've missed you.
Good Decision.
It heartens me to know you voted your conscience.
I want to believe the provinces of Baghdad and those to the north and to the west of Baghdad cannot be marginalized. These communities represent the entpreneurial class of Iraq. They are Iraq's backbone. Although there is concern that provinces to the south and north of Baghdad will benefit at the expense of central Iraq, the financial capital, the prestigious educational institutions, the technology sector and the commercial sector will more than likely continue to reside in central Iraq. Perhaps a central Iraq freed from an oil-based kleptrocracy will truly shine.
I'm looking forward to the day US troops are drawn down. I know we have brought grief and sorrow to your family. I remain ashamed. I so wish it could be otherwise.
Does lose hope Zeyad.
I meant don't lose hope.
Congratulations on your vote. You realize of course that this may lock you into the process. You may find yourself under a bit of an obligation to make your voice heard -- to turn this constitution into something for which you can vote "yes". Go for it! I applaud your vote.
P.S. Where and how have you been?
Thank God you are fine, Zeyad.
Democracy in action, the opportunity to vote yes or no.
I am sure you are involved in the process of getting the Constitution just about perfect.
Congratulations!
Najma,
Did you know that no American voted for or against their Constitution? Only our Representatives. For your parents to vote as individuals against your Constitution is a great thing. Now, as someone pointed out, you are obliged to make your Constitution into something you can vote for. That is the way Democracy works.
Zeyad,
Good to see you posting again. Congratulations on being able to vote!
The constitution is an offensive joke to any half-educated Iraqi. You'd have to be a dim-wit to vote 'yes'. Sistani says 'yes'....need I say more....
Why can't nay-voters make a well reasoned argument for their choice? Is this simply nay-voting for its own sake?
Nadia,
You're right, and were the Bathists still in power, your point, and mine would be moot. None of the 'dim-wits' would have had the opportunity to vote.
And yes, how Iraqi's implement the constitution, should it pass, is of paramount importance. After all, we live in a physical world, not a theoritical one, and that implementation can take time. America's constitution wasn't implemented (1789) until six years after it won its Independence from Britian (1783).
Good to hear from you Zeyad. I have missed your writing.
"America's constitution wasn't implemented (1789) until six years after it won its Independence from Britian (1783)."
And then it had to be ammended to give rights to all WHITE MEN (not women and blacks)... that came much later.
Nadia, you should be very proud with where you are right now.
Original Jeff, I couldn't help but ask, why didn't you ask Zeyad why he didn't thank the Americans..?
I don't want to speak for Zeyad when I say his reason for voting against. But I think you can pretty much anticipate that, but are afraid to believe..
There happens to be some patriotic Iraqis, who want the best to Iraq, which is certainly not to be found in a quickly-build, wrongly-based constitution.. A constituiton is not a game, it should be thoroughly thought.
Hopefully, Iraqis will know the best for them before it's too late. I don't think I can stand Iraq if it goes any worse..
Good to hear from you, Zeyad, and congratulations on the vote. I hope your country can move forward now.
It's nice to hear your voice again, Zeyad. If only to let us know how you voted.
Take care.
Welcome back...I always enjoyed reading your comments. I don't know how I would have voted. I would want something permanent but the constitution has too many religious overtones (and I am a religious person). Hope you post from time to time. All the best Zeyad.
Congratulations on voting to get the Constitution you want. Having the ability to shape your country's future is a wonderful thing.
Please let us know more about your life and the reasons for your vote when you get a chance.
Best wishes,
Pat
Malik Hameed, just because Saddam or the Baathists are not in power today doesn't mean that Iraqis have to be like sheep and go out in droves voting "yes", just as the Bush adminstration and the Iranian Ayatollah would like to see.
Najma
It's wrong for you to slander your countrymen as not patriotic, because they don't hold the same opinion as you. You have to learn to be more tolerant of differences in opinion for democracy to work.
Congrats on voting. Hopefully you'll continue getting the chance to vote.
Great to see your post and know that you are ok Zeyad. It is also good to see that so many voted there and that the election was fairly peaceful. I hope that this is another step forward in Iraqis taking charge of their country again. If this constitution is voted down then the process must go forward until one that satisfies the majority and represents all fairly is approved...if that is the case so be it and I continue to wish all there the very best!
Good to hear from you Zeyad. It's great to see that you voted and made your voice heard. That is what it is all about. These are sad and exciting times.
I hope your country will be peaceful once again. You are a great, proud people.
"Malik Hameed, just because Saddam or the Baathists are not in power today doesn't mean that Iraqis have to be like sheep and go out in droves voting 'yes',"
Agreed.
"And then it had to be ammended to give rights to all WHITE MEN (not women and blacks)... that came much later."
Richard, if you keep judging everything from a utopian perspective, you're going to be sorely disappointed when things don't live up to your expectations. America's history is full of mistakes, but then again, whose isn't?
Though after giving Iraqi's the power to vote for the second time, I'd say invading Iraq wansn't one of them. Something tells me you're going to disagree, Rich.
I think that I understand your vote, Zeyad. I hope that you can reject this one and create another that will offer your country a more stable foundation.
I have been very worried that something had happened to you. I am glad to see that you are well, although I still find your silence ominous.....
Be well and take care.
Najma,
I have no need to ask Zeyad why he is not thankful for the American invasion of Iraq. His writing shows that he understands that Iraq today has the potential for a brighter future that it did not have prior to March 2003.
The only problem with a "no" vote is that it might encourage the violent elements of your society and the foreign fighters to continue with their violence.
Unfortunately the U.S. controlled Iraqi government has made it almost mathematically impossible to defeat the constitution. For the constitution to pass only requires more than half of "actual" voters to vote "yes." For example, if only 20 people voted in all of Iraq and 11 voted "yes" the constitution would pass because it is based on "actual" voters, not "registered" voters. In order to defeat the constitution two-thirds of "registered," not "actual," voters must say "no" in at least three provinces. For example, if 599 people went to the polls in a province and everyone who voted said "no" but there were 900 registered voters in that province it would be still counted as a "yes" vote because two-thirds of the "registered" voters in that province did not vote "no." Welcome to "democracy", American style. One might call it the new dictatorship.
Sunni anger at Iraq vote change
Colleen,
You are behind on the news...
Under UN and US pressure, the Govt of Iraq officially backed away from the interpretation you mention above. Now it is "actual voters" for both the majority requirement and the 2/3 requirement.
"A move by the Shia-dominated Iraqi parliament last month to make it harder to reject the constitution - by counting only votes from registered, as opposed to actual voters - was reversed after criticism from the UN and the US. "
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middl...ast/
4337200.stm
Glad to see you're still around Zeyad.
I hope all is well.
Colleen's point seems to be that if you count "only" actual votes, it's not democracy.
Boy is that asinine. Colleen can you explain how, in your mind, one goes about counting the votes of people who don't vote?
More generally, you appear to be quite worried that a silent majority of registered voters will disapprove of the Constitution but not vote, thus not be counted, thus allowing the Constitution to pass against their wishes.
Question: If all these hypothetical registered-voter non-voter people are so opposed to the Constitution why don't they just *go vote against it*, like Zeyad did?
And if they can't be bothered (too busy?) to go vote against this Constitution they supposedly dislike so much, if they're so apathetic in their opposition, then why would we insist that their voices carry the day in the first place? Is your view of "democracy" that the fate of a group of people is decided by the most apathetic and lazy among them?
Spare me your crocodile tears for the poor oppressed Iraqi non-voting registered voter. This whole concern of yours is not just silly, it is illogical. I can't help but think it is driven by something other than genuine concern for the Iraqi people.
Original Jeff
I read the link and I stand corrected. I see the two-thirds requirement is now based on actual.
...doesn't post for months, and all we get are three words?
...well, at least you voted..
Zeyad
I am glad you were free to vote your conscience. I probably would have voted the same as you because I don’t like laws of the land based on any singular Identified Religion.
IF I am not mistaken, Islamic doctrine (and Islamic clerics) will have veto power over all future laws proposed by soon to be elected officials come December regarding this Constitution and its amendments. ( that may still be one of the sticking points, along with fair representation & equitable sharing nationally thru Federalist independent Provinces.
On the other-hand, this constitution is only the framework document (at this point) delaying key critical points to be amended by duly elected officials of the people come December.
I think this vote is a great step forward and your NO vote will be part of the reminder that this CONSTITUTION needs a great deal more work to be fully acceptable should it pass.
In either case “yes or no outcome” your elected officials (representatives) come December will have much on their plate to complete this document to the satisfaction of the people of Iraq.
Thank God you are now free to voice your opinion and vote your conscience.
Tex
I would have voted against it. The constitution gives no rights whatever to gorillas and other apes. Nor is there is a timetable in it for humans to give up eating meat.
I'd been wondering.
Miss ya, Z.
Almost two years ago to the day (Oct. 18, 2003), Zeyad wrote about the fall of Baghdad in a blog entry entitled "A little something about the war":
Our area was one of three areas in Baghdad that witnessed the bloodiest resistance against American forces. My uncle was so proud of that fact. But there were still no Americans to be seen, only a couple of helicopters. The next day however, a long convoy of American vehicles stormed through our street. I stood in front of the house watching, M1 Bradleys, Humvees, Abrams tanks, APC's. I was impressed. Most of the Americans were so so young. They waved at us, and I waved back. Everyone in the street looked happy.
After they left, I was surprised to find my uncle standing at the door, his face violet red with rage, he was plucking his hair from his head and shouting, I didn't at first realize what he was saying, his mouth was frothy and he was shaking his fists at me, he was so ashamed and enraged about the fact that I was waving to the 'invading' Americans. I thought he was having a fit or something, because he looked like someone losing it. 'Wait and see tommorrow when they will come into our houses and rape our women! You wouldn't wave then, would you', 'How could you dare to wave to zionist imperialists in front of my house?!', something like that. We almost got into a fight, but people seperated us. I felt so humiliated for being shouted at in front of everyone from our neighbourhood. I haven't talked to him to this day, although he lives next door.
For a look at the fall of Baghdad through the eyes of other Iraqis, check out this from Iraqi Bloggers Central:
War and Its Discontents.
*
This constitution isn't that great. The best reason to vote "yes" was to try and speed up the process of creating stable government.
Voting "no" would force the whole process to start again. The Sunni would have another chance to get involved in the process. The voters would have a chance to reconsider voting for the clerics. The result would be more inclusive and created by an electorate that has more experience with democratic choice.
But voting "no" could deligitimize the process and encourage the bombers. That is the rub.
In my survey, I have found a surprising number of Iraqi Bloggers feel the same as Zeyad:
Roll Call: Iraqi Bloggers Sound Off On The Constitution And Voting
Congratulations, Zeyad.
But now they (both US-puppets and Iran-puppets) will rig the results, as usual, I bet (it has begun from the start: no ballot boxes in Qaim and in many other 'NO' areas).
Voting 'No' will in no way deligitimize the process, in fact the act of voting down the constitution and winning the 'no' vote will substancially enforce the democratic processs in Iraq and deal a heavy blow to the people who do the bombings. It would be a tremendous psuchological and moral boost to the average iraqi who will finally understand that through democratic means the nation can say 'no' to its government. But this argument is moot, as we all know that the vote has already been preordained as a 'Yes'.
What makes me really sad is that all you Yanks are cheering this outcome believing your naive stupid press that you have somehow achieved a victory here. The fact of the matter is that the 'Yes' vote on the cnstitution is the worst possible oucome ever, especially as it is obvious that most Sunnis voted in large numbers against. This is so gonna antagonise the Sunni population that its gonna push them further and further away towards the insurgence and all that we are gonna see is further bloodshed. A truely sad day for Iraq if the vote came back as a 'yes'. watch and see.
okba,
Listen, if this constitution gets a YES vote, don't despair.
On December 15 ALL THE SUNNIS can make their voices be heard by VOTING for their representatives to take seats in the Parliament. If you don't like what your representative do in the Parliament during that term in office, then you vote him or her OUT at the next election.
See? Representative democracy. It works. As over a hundred countries around the world understand.
*
okba,
Many who oppose the constitution seem to fear the federal system of government. They talk about "breaking up of Iraq." Can you explain this? Many successful democracies, including Canada and USA, have such a form of government. I don't consider the USA to be "broken up!"
A "yes" vote simply causes the election in December to be for 4 year term rather than for a 1 year term. In both cases--yes or no--the constitution is subject to being rewritten--either from scratch or by amendment.
It looks like it will be Yes, but I can also understand voting the other way. And I, too, would be interested in you doing an indepth analysis as to why that was your decision (athough many of us can speculate as to your problems with it). While we non-Iraqis can read the document, we are woefully ignorent of the cultural and social aspects involved. Continue to impart your wisdom in these areas, so we may all understand.
Original Jeff,
What worries me is not the 'yes' or 'No' of it all. The Constitution itself and the fact that it can and probably will be ratified is not the issue here. My concern is that it is blatantly clear that the Sunnis have gone out in vast numbers to reject this Draft. If the Government plays with the results and announces that the Sunni Governates have actually accepted the draft then the Sunnis will be so outraged and disellusioned with their new found belief in the democratic process, that there won't be a December ellections because the Sunnis will see no point in participating in it.
It will be a disaster.
Do you understand my point now?.
okba,
I don't see the government/polling authorities "playing" with the results at all. Each polling station had national and international monitors. Right now it looks like the Anbar and Saladin governates will reach the 2/3 threshold, but that's only two.
Am I missing something here?
Everything I've seen and read points to a well-run referendum.
Well?
*
okba,
If Sunnis think that the democratic process means that THEY WIN and THEY GET ALL THEIR FORMER AND POWER BACK, then that's a different story.
My prediction: Sunnis have gone to the polls now and they will have no problem getting in line on December 15 to get their representatives into the Parliament.
I could be wrong, but letting Zarqawi lead the Sunni "resistance" -- which many commentators have acknowledged -- is not an option, is it?
*
okba,
Yes, the current government must do their best to have a fair referendum--absolutely. As I understand it, there were many hundreds of observers of the process, so we should know if there is any vote fraud going on. Also, don't forget that the current government did indeed reverse course of the interpretation of "actual" versus "registered" voters. That means they are sympathetic to being fair and honest. Also, they agreed to put the thing up for amdendment immediately--another good sign.
But, most of all, they have not simply wholesale slaugtered former-Baathists by the tens of thousands--that is perhaps the best sign of all!
I fully expect at least one province--Anbar--to reach the 2/3 rejection requirement. This seems likely since voting was so heavy in the Marine-protected enclave of Falluja. Whether 3 will reach the 2/3 level will be interesting...
I have no problem with a "no" vote. "no" would also allow you to have several more early elections. These elections and interim periods give Iraqis a better feel for the process and for what type of leaders and government they want. It is kind of like have a trial period for leaders! You tried Allawi and his group of seculars. You tried the Jafarri shiites, etc.
Iraqi WirePress Report (translated from Arabic),
the Governor of Mosul(Niniveh province) denied reports of involvement of the militias loyal to the religious shia Sciri party in Mosul and Tal-Afar. And when asked about the closing of polling stations in districts of Hasnooky, Kadisia, and Mallayeen he said that those area are not currently lived in due to the recent fighting in those area. as for the vilages and area surrounding the city then we Don't have any centers in them , but we have set up senters in areas close by where voters can be bussed to if they so wished.
From the WaPo:
=-=-=-
Perhaps the most important question Saturday was whether their turnout would bring them into a political process they have so far eschewed or, if the constitution is approved, deepen their alienation. Without exception, voters said they planned to cast ballots in elections in December to choose a new parliament.
"God willing, we have to secure the future of Iraq," said Wissam Faiz, a 22-year-old who voted no. "With a new election, we can elect a better government."
Could a better government exist with the occupation? he was asked.
Frowning, he shrugged. "Without an occupation," he said, somewhat ambiguously, "we would have never witnessed any of this."
=-=-=-
Huh. See Rich, even your average Iraqi gets it.
Oh, and Okba,
"with the results and announces that the Sunni Governates have actually accepted the draft then the Sunnis will be so outraged and disellusioned with their new found belief in the democratic process,"
Um, just wondering, but doesn't the majority rule? The Sunnis might be a bit perturbed, but let's face it, they cast votes today, not bombs. Which begs the question: what impetus caused Sunnis to vote and not boycott?
Generally I believe they realize they're not well represented in the Parliment and want to change that legitimately. And if they want it changed legitimately, why then would they suddenly, after the vote doesn't go their way, believe they'd be any more represented by the insurgency?
Bottom line, if they can't accept the will of the majority, then they, the Sunnis, have deeper problems requiring a greater degree of introspection.
Zeyad,
Great to see you posting again, even if it is only 3 words. Unfortunately the 4-5 million Iraqis abroad were not allowed to vote.....I wonder why!!! All my family would have voted against it too.
You have been missed hope you post again soon.
Good to hear from ya again Zeyad. Take care.
A lot of good could come of the constitution being voted down. A lot of good the other way too. I'm just happy to see so many Sunni Arabs voting this time. Even if the Constitution passes, a large turnout next time means they will be properly represented in the new government.
Um Ayad,
Get involved with your favorite political parties NOW. If it's YES, then there are parliamentary elections just around the corner on December 15. Let your voice be heard. Vote for your representatives and hold them responsible and accountable for their actions once they're in office. If you don't like what they're doing, vote them OUT at the end of their term.
*
Yes or No, or even why is not an issue. Voting is the key, and blessings to you for taking part.
I am an American Marine deployed to ar-Ramadi. I would like to link to this blog from my own. I am intrigued to read the thoughts and views of the citizens of Iraq during this period of conflict.
If you disapprove, contact me immediately and I will remove the link.
Thanks and God be with you.
"Unfortunately the 4-5 million Iraqis abroad were not allowed to vote.....I wonder why!"
Could be because last time the expatriate vote was difficult, expensive, and not very many actually voted.
Zeyad,
Great to see an update, even if brief.
I would have voted against this draft too and I think starting over on a new draft wouldn't have made the existing problems any worse. Iraqis would have had a second chance to correct any election 'mistakes' made the first time (and I think there were a bunch of mistakes the first time). I don't like the talk about a yes vote is a step forward and you'll just fix later what is wrong with this draft. A step forward is when people vote on content compared to personal values, not because of battle fatigue (though understandable) and not because it can be changed later. I doubt many in the US would ever think to vote in favor of something they can't personally support with the thought that they can just change it later. Changing it later is NOT easily done.
My best to you Zeyad,
Check out the most recent version from Wednesday October 12. The religious stuff is not so havy-handed any more. Yes it still declares that Iraq is a country of one particular faith, but it is unequivacal in it's protection of other religions. The composition of judges is up for the next Council to outline. It has a good bill of rights..EXCEPT... It looks like it might be saying, injuring/disfiguring people is how crimes will be punished. If that's true, I agree this is a very bad constitution. If I've read that part wrong, I think the rest of it lays down a good foundation.
The things that are to be decided by the new Council are the things best delayed till a second round of candidates, who have been through Iraq's experience of the last 8 months.
Lee C.,
I read somewhere a few days ago that the expense of the out-of-country polling stations was indeed a key factor in the decision. Especially, I imagine, because they have to foot that heavy bill again in two months for the parliamentary elections.
You might want to take a look at this, if you haven't already:
Independent Electoral Commission of Iraq.
But, really, there's an easier explanation: Karl Rove. All right, Lee, I'm just joking around. You know me. I always go for double helpings of snark -- against doctor's orders, I might add -- in the cafeteria line.
Nice to see ya.
Hey, Kris, nice to run into you here too. I remember you were one of the first commenters over at Iraqi Bloggers Central. I've seen you popping up here and there on the comments pages again recently.
Okay, later.
*
Turner,
Did they take out the part about the right to use a religious court to decide family matters or did they add more guardrails to restrict the autonomy of the various regions? Once this stuff is in the constitution, not sure how it gets taken out in the future.
Hi Jeffrey. I've taken some long breaks from the blogs. Honestly, once Zeyad stopped posting, it lost some of its draw, but I show up at ITM occassionally when I'm in the mood for a good debate. Usually easy enough to find since my politics are to the left of most commenters left there. When I'm around, I often check your site just for the roundup, see if I missed anything big. That's how I found out The Religious Policeman was posting again. So I hope you keep blogging too. Take care.
Ohthankgod Zeyad - you posted and that means you are still out there somewhere!!!! Do you know how worried I've been about you? Geez, I sound like a mother.....Anyhow, please please please email me soon. I need to hear from my favorite Iraqi dentist! 
I've missed you sooo much! Hugs.
To everyone asking Zeyad why he voted no - have you not read the draft (or one of the countless variations) yourselves?
Why do you need Zeyad to explain his decisions to you? It sounds like you're polling to find out what lies to justify a yes vote. Sorry, I am so over certain parties vetting free political analysis in the comments of blogs.
Go read the thing yourselves, read everything that everyone else was writing about it weeks, even months ago. Then come back and tell us what you think.
migratory visitor
The purpose to ask zeyad his reasons is simple. Maybe he'll shed light on something we've missed. I read the constitutiion and can't discern what it is that zeyad doesn't like. So it may be plain to you what he doesn't like, it is not plain to us. Regards
@ Jeffrey Schuster, 'Original Jeff' et al.
"Each polling station had national and international monitors."
"many hundreds of observers of the process".
What are you talking about?
Any CREDIBLE international observers, or just the US troops?
Who were these supposed 'hundreds of observers'? How is it that nobody knows of their very existence?
Or, maybe, you just invented them out of your fertile imagination?
US troops were not inside the polling stations you ignorant turd. Representatives of all the major Iraqi political parties and the Iraqi electoral commission were there. These people were filmed during the voting by CNN.
The Mayor of Bayswater,
He has a lovely daughter,
And the hairs on her dicky-di-doe,
Hang down to her knees.
She married an Italian,
With balls like a fucking stallion,
And the hairs on her dicky-di-doe,
Hang down to her knees.
She divorced the Italian,
And married the stallion,
And the hairs on her dicky-di-doe,
Hang down to her knees.
Wow. Look at the feeble arguments being put forth by the International Left. I wonder if Saturday's vote was as demoralizing to the insurgent terrorists?
@ Jeffrey Schuster, 'Original Jeff', 'Malik Hameed' and all assorted US warmongers.
I stand corrected: there is at least ONE 'international observer' put in charge by the UN in Baghdad, a woman.
This very morning she declared to the journalists that all fake tallies of the referendum vote and of the YES/NO percentages province by province (that you liked so much) are quite simply FALSE, since they had just started the count of the votes, and most ballot boxes were still unopened.
Now I wonder, I do wonder...
how is it that the Italian State TV (TG3) showed her statement (that gives the total lie to your beloved cobra Condy Rice, among others), while there has been a deafening silence up to now by the AP, and all American media, that already declared instead that the NO hasn't got a 2/3 majority in Ninevah (clairvoyants, no doubt)?
Are they trying to hide something from you warmongers... or to please your Ape in Chief... or to prepare you to a fraudolent, manifactured result?
Anyway, do keep quiet, dear Apes, instead of jumping up and down out of joy: possibly the games are not over, and the UN chief of observer will be able to prevent the predictable fraud by the US and the pro-Iranians.
And the declaration of referendum results is going to take place no sooner than Wednesday...
Dear friends, I wonder if An Italian realizes he/she did more to damage his/her argument, using those callous invectives, than help it?
"He who yells the loudest usually has the weakest argument."
What I don't get is how can some people not understand that one can vote NO even though you are NOT a sunni, anti democracy or for having us Iraqis living in hell for always? This is very stange indeed. Why can not some people just not lift their heads from these stupid thoughts and see that we Iraqis who are as any other people on this earth have differnet views too, just becouse you don't agree to one of them does not make that person or people anti democracy.
Zeyad,
I thought you would vote against. Well, it is certainly not an ideal constitution. I think the question is, how or when can you get the constitution you want? Is it a good idea to wait?
I am not sure if a constitution would be better the next time, if this one is voted down. The religious parties will not disappear, and the Iraqi Islamic Party seems to be popular among Sunnis, it doesn´t sound very secular to me.
Federalism is nothing worse than say, Switzerland, Germany or the US have got. It is not a disaster.
It seems to me that getting a more secular constitution will take several decades, for the simple reasons that many, perhaps most Iraqis vote what their religious leaders tell them to vote. And this will take decades to change.
Anyway, good to hear from you again, even with a short post!!
Lee C,
"Could be because last time the expatriate vote was difficult, expensive, and not very many actually voted."
This time the situation is different. Last time it was voting for a "Puppet Regime" this time it is for the constitution. A time for Iraqis to agree or disagree on the future constitution of their country, many would have liked to vote on that. Besides their are more Iraqis leaving now due to the intolerable situation.
Jeffrey,
"Get involved with your favourite political parties NOW. If it's YES, then there are parliamentary elections just around the corner on December 15. Let your voice be heard."
Yes, I am aware of that. I know they have said Iraqis abroad will be able to vote..... We will wait and see!! But, I am sure their will be vote-rigging, already there are many reports of voter fraud..... the number of ballots just do not add up, some very odd results.
"This time the situation is different."
None of the differences you claim change the fact that not enough expatriates voted last time to make it worth the expense and effort. No reason to assume that'd change this time. As I recall, you didn't vote last time, and while you claim you'd have voted this time, that's easy said, but may not be true when it come time to make the actual effort.
And, you'd have voted "against" I gather if you'd voted, but there was no provision for rejecting the constitution except by majority vote, or by ⅔ in three governates, and you aren't voting in any of the governates that might have rejected it. Basically, it'd have been a wasted vote as the expatriate vote would never have been sufficient to overcome the overall majority.
So, you're complaining about something that doesn't make any real difference anyway, as the expat vote would never have defeated the overall majority. It would have been an exercise in expensive futility.
"What I don't get is how can some people not understand that one can vote NO even though you are NOT a sunni, anti democracy or for having us Iraqis living in hell for always? This is very stange indeed."
You get that impression because most of the persons posting here are Americans, fervent supporters of G.W. Bush, and the Bushies have determined that they need to show some "progress" in Iraq to overcome the general American electorate's notion that freeing Iraq was probably a good idea, but the current set of clowns has pretty much botched the job.
The Bushies need the "yes" vote for Bush's domestic political fortunes. That's what they're about. They want to wave the "yes" vote as a sign of success (they don't want to live under it though--that's for you Iraqi to suffer through).
Personally, I'd have voted no too, if I were an Iraqi; I don't think much of that constitution. But, do I think just getting the vote done without heavy violence is some evidence of progress. I'd like to see it voted down and have a new crew start again.
I recognize there are some good arguments for accepting a defective constitution just now. I don't buy them totally; they don't convince me enough that I'd have wanted to see this pass, but, truth is, I'm not sure I'm right--it's a judgment call, and I've got an opinion, but I'm not sure. And my opinion don't count for much on this anyway; this is for Iraqi to decide.
Zeyad, I am thankful you are well. Congratulations on your vote. I have full faith that you, and your brave people will find the right path forward within a democratic framework.
I'm so glad you're OK and pleased you took part in the progress of your country. I wish I was privy to the inevitable debates you have with your contemporaries. Do post some more, we need to hear more intellectual thoughts about the Iraqi process towards "democracy". P.S. The invitation (Canada) I extended to you is always open.
Lee C,
"So, you're complaining about something that doesn't make any real difference anyway, as the expat vote would never have defeated the overall majority. It would have been an exercise in expensive futility."
Glad to hear that you don't think much of the constitution either. But it would have sent a loud message if expats could have voted. "The Bushies need the "yes" vote for Bush's domestic political fortunes." That seems like a very good reason to vote NO, definitely don't want to help Bush's or Blair's domestic political fortunes. They try to block anything that could be detrimental to their "political fortunes" like at the Labour Conference when Mr Wolfgang, 82, from London, was physically removed from the Brighton Centre for shouting "nonsense" during a speech by Foreign Secretary Jack Straw.
Also....
"Iraq envoy's tell-all memoir blocked"
"The Foreign Office has effectively killed the publication of a controversial fly-on-the-wall memoir of the Iraq war by one of Britain's most senior diplomats, which would have called the conflict politically illegitimate."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/
S...1593440,00.html
"That seems like a very good reason to vote NO, definitely don't want to help Bush's or Blair's domestic political fortunes."
Seems to me to be a fairly horrid reason to vote "NO". You obviously care about Bush's political fortunes as much as the Bushies do; you just have a different wish, but not much an apparently different level of of concern for Iraq. But then, you haven't lived in Iraq in a long time have you? And no intention of going back?
Personally, I'd vote against the constitution, if the vote were mine, because I consider it a poor effort and I'd like to see another set of Assembly men (and women) picked to give it another try in hopes they'd come up with something better.
I don't give a damn what it does for Bush or Blair or their political fortunes.
well said Lee c. this is not about Bush or Blair. It's ultimately about Iraq and its peoples future and democracy.
Zeyed, good to hear from you even if it is only those few words.
My sixth sense tells me you have altered your previous positive positions....is that so???
Dear Zeyad,
on the evidence of fraud and rigging of the referendum results, see this post by American journalist Christopher Allbritton, titled 'Curious numbers in Ninevah':
http://www.back-to-iraq.com/
arch...ous_numbers.php
On the issue of your previous post, the situation in 'liberated' Basra, this piece by the BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middl...ast/
4347636.stm
Found them through the comments to the 'Free Iraq' blog.
Now I'm amazed by the incredibly brazen necks of these US warmongers, who keep coming here giving lessons to you and all Iraqis (all their blathering about 'democwacy', or about 'your previous positive positions', like this shameless JJ does).
Is this the 'Freedom & Democracy' you brought to the Iraqis, oh Americans?
A referendum that was a farce and a FRAUD from the start, completely rigged and preordained by your puppets (and the puppets of the Ayatollahs)?
What is the substantial difference between this referendum and the referendums that Saddam arranged from time to time? Oh, yeah, the only difference is that in this case (provided an Iraqi were living in an area relatively uninfested by your wonderful allies, the Kurdish mafia gangs and the militias of the Ayatollahs) one could openly express him/herself in favour of a 'NO' vote...
But what is the real difference, since in both cases the results were PREORDAINED?
The US Administration and the Teheran Ayatollahs (both followed by their Iraqi puppets) did agree for once: this Iraq-destroying 'Constitution' just had to come into force. Whence the fraud and the wholesale rigging of the vote.
Do you call this 'democracy', oh Americans?
In the meanwhile, in Al-Anbar, your beasts-at-arms murdered, in retaliation for the rightful cull of five of them at the hands of Iraqi patriots, some dozens of Iraqi civilians...
thanks for telling us zeyad. i would have voted against it myself.
Italian,
I couldn't have said it better.
Thank you.
If this Fraud is blessed by the American administration, then it will be a slap to every peace loving and honest Iraqi who ever believed in the honest intention of bringing true democracy to Iraq.
I feel like a fool for ever standing up in support of this war. My heart breaks. To hell with Bush and every stupid American who buys into his bullcrap. Not me. Not ever again.
Iraqi.
Lee C. Wrote:
"And, you'd have voted "against" I gather if you'd voted, but there was no provision for rejecting the constitution except by majority vote, or by ⅔ in three governates, and you aren't voting in any of the governates that might have rejected it."
For your info, votes were gathered in 20 contries outside Iraq. Are those a standby "Yes" vote to top off wherever it is needed?
"Italian,
I couldn't have said it better.
Thank you."
For your information okba, the Iraqi "patriots" to whom An Italian refers are the insurgents and foreign Jihadi types, who just happen to be killing Iraqi citizens at a ratio of 10 to 1 over every Coalition soldier they kill. If you think that is a good thing then you will find my position is very much at odds with yours. I notice that you once supported the war to topple Saddam. I still do. My complaint about my government is that they have pretty much botched the job from day one; they got Saddam out of Baghdad all right, but much more was required and they did not seem to understand that nor were they ready for it, and Iraq has descended into chaos as a result of their incompetence and poor preparation for the aftermath. The quick run to Baghdad is a testament to the strength and competence of our military men (and women). The chaos Iraq descended into afterwords is a testament to the incompetence of our political leaders.
But, even though I cannot give the political leaders good grades, I cannot support the killing of Iraqi at a ratio of 10 to 1 just to embarrass them.
Most Americans honestly supported the effort to "bring democracy to Iraq", that's why Bush had majority support to begin this war. Most Americans do not believe they've done a good job; rather, the majority opinion over here is that they've screwed up an otherwise good idea. That's why Bush's numbers are so low now; not because it was a bad idea, but because it was incompetently handled.
But, I cannot support the killing of Iraqi at a ratio of 10 to 1, nor the killing of Coalition soldiers who are still trying to bring some semblance of order out of the chaos, just to embarrass some politicians whom I think have done a poor job of handling the aftermath of the fall of the Ba'athi.
I must wonder how you, as an Iraqi, can support that?
"For your info, votes were gathered in 20 contries outside Iraq."
I do not believe that is true. I suspect you've been listening to some false propaganda, quite simply, I think somebody's been lying to you again, but I am willing to hear you out and to be convinced that you are right and I am wrong.
Do you have any information on this other than just some rumor? What are these "20 countries"? Where were the voting stations in these countries?
Do you have any information at all other than this rumor, which I believe to be false?
www.valvolamitralika.splinder.com
look to the linck
Hi, Zeyad. Often think of you and your family.
Lee C. wrote,
"Do you have any information on this other than just some rumor? What are these "20 countries"? Where were the voting stations in these countries?
I was not accurate, my aplogies. The news item indicated that the 20 countries will have voting stations for the Dec 15 voting phase.
Yet, the question remains, how those outside votes are going to be incorporated in the local results without any political bias? Do you expect the votes for Iraqis in Iran will be against Al Hakim?
I think that if I were an Iraqi, I would probably have come down in the yes column, but I agree with Lee C…it’s a very close call. My yes vote would have been based on two hopes:
1. That the new assembly elections in December will result in a much higher level of representation for the secular Iraqis, whether they be Sunni, Shia, Christian or atheist, and
2. That the federalist structure will give considerable “breathing room” to people who might otherwise be oppressed under a strong central government composed of Islamic fundamentalists.
But it is a leap of faith. We'll know in a few months if the former is realistic. The latter will take longer.
Lee C,
"You obviously care about Bush's political fortunes as much as the Bushies do; you just have a different wish, but not much an apparently different level of concern for Iraq. But then, you haven't lived in Iraq in a long time have you? And no intention of going back?"
I showed your comment to my English work colleagues they said...." this guy obviously knows nothing about you or the tears you have wept for Iraq and the depression you have suffered."....For your information I was in Baghdad just before the invasion and my husband has returned several times since for various reasons, including repairing the damage to our home caused by the invasion. I find your remark that I have no intention of going back rather strange...How can you know or assume what my future plans are? I see no reason to tell you or anybody, except those close to me, about my plans. I might return sooner than you think but frankly that is none of your business. I will not announce a date for my return here. I comment on Bush and his cabal as I believe they are the reason for the deaths and suffering of so many Iraqis and the destruction of a country I love. Please refrain from making unfounded assumptions about me.
Lee C[ercopith]. ― U.S.A., 10.18.05 - 5:20 am.
Dear Cercopith Lee,
You just keep being a fantasising LIAR.
You write: “the Iraqi ‘patriots’ to whom An Italian refers are the insurgents and foreign Jihadi types, who just happen to be killing Iraqi citizens at a ratio of 10 to 1 over every Coalition soldier they kill”.
1) Can you provide a single one of my posts to Zeyad’s comments pages, in the thirteen months I have been posting here, where I hailed ANY “foreign Jihadi types” (who are, BTW, as genuine as Luis Posada Carriles, do google it)? Or, for that matter, even any IRAQI “Jihadi types”, like the glorious Shiite militias of the ‘Interim Government’ the US are backing? You are just a shameless liar. But I do support instead the Iraqi patriots, who sent homeward to think again almost 2,000 of your mighty soldiers up to now (well, the two thousand of them in boxes; plus 20,000 of them still alive, but with some paws missing).
2) That Iraqi patriots are “killing Iraqi citizens at a ratio of 10 to 1 over every Coalition soldier they kill” is another ludicrous LIE. Why would ANY member of the genuine Iraqi patriotic resistance (that is strengthening and spreading more and more, BTW) want to kill ANY Iraqi civilians? What would be the interest of such a criminal action? On the part of anybody truly fighting the US foreign invaders it would be completely self-defeating, wouldn’t it?
So our mindless US propagandists (like our monkey Lee), in order to spew this lie, lump together all Iraqi casualties (civilians, members of the puppet ‘troops’ & ‘police’, militiamen, insurgents), regardless of who killed them. As for the Iraqi civilians (who are only a part of the casualties), who are the perpetrators of their killing? At least 37% of these civilians have been murdered by the official US forces; the second bunch of murderers of civilians are the ‘mysterious’ (oh so mysterious, this Zarqawi the Ghost, just as mysterious as Luis Posada Carriles!) ‘al-Qaida’; the third group of murderers of civilians are the gangs of common criminals (there is no law & order in ‘liberated’ Iraq! It is a ‘homo homini lupus’ situation); the fourth in these past few months have been the puppet forces and the sectarian militiamen (the same people, either in their ‘official’ uniforms or not); the Iraqi patriots come as a very distant fifth cause of death among civilians (mortar shots going amiss and landing where they were not intended to, and the like). You US propagandists are just shameless LIARS.
But you cannot fool all the people all the time: and most Americans, thanks be to God, are starting to see through these lies.
Let me just add,
Many in Iraq are furious that no one is paying attention to the Iranian Suicide squads operational in Iraq. Many of whom have already carried out operation in Iraq which the American media nievely or otherwise continue to attribute to the Iraqi resistance..
Read more
http://memri.org/bin/media.cgi?ID=140605
Thoughts Fuzzy Moral Math
"Please refrain from making unfounded assumptions about me."
The comment to the effect that you have not lived in Iraq for years is not unfounded
The observation that you appear more interested in Bush and Blair's political fortunes than those of your people in Iraq is not unfounded either. I have your statements above.
The speculation that you don't intend to return to Iraq to live there, was just that, speculation, a question, (one for which I think I have a basis, but still a question), as the question mark should have shown to your "English work colleagues", who should have explained that to you if your English was insufficient to enable to you to grasp the subtlety on your own.
Dear Cercopith Lee,
You are a friggin’ troll; surely you don't expect me to take you seriously just because you think you're good at it? Save that for the Bushies. They tend to bite at any phisher. As for me, if I decide to screw with the likes of you, I'll surely let you know. It'll be all over ya.
"Many of whom have already carried out operation in Iraq which the American media nievely or otherwise continue to attribute to the Iraqi resistance."
Naively I suspect; our media is not doing a real good job of reporting on this. It's a function of the merchant economy. Our news has to "sell" and a lot of people don't want to hear about Iraq nowadays. Also, the Administration doesn't want it in the news either, so they're downplaying things in Iraq so much as they can (they do want that yes vote on the constitution though), and there's other stuff going on getting ready for our mid-term elections next year. Our media is not doing much on Iraq unless one looks on the back pages for it.
Dear An Italian,
You are a fine example of the extremism and socialistic fascist mentality that is often produced by the monolithic ignorance on Eurabia. You sir, are a shame and a disgrace.
It feels so good to be on the right side of history. I wonder if the critics of Lincoln in the fight to free slaves from bond-ship ever omitted their intellectual fallacies as you and your global socialist cronies should. To actually argue that freeing people from the iron grip of oppression is wrong. My, these poor lost soles. Now, finally that your feeble brainwashed minds have realized that being the intellectual darlings of tyrants and terrorists makes you look bad, you switch to bigotry, character assassination, and ignorant conspiracy theories. You create diabolical schemes grounded in the reasoning that the oil industry is secretly behind the call and cause of freedom, you know ‘evil capitalism‘. Even though the Iraqi constitution guarantees that the wealth of the countries oil will be dispersed and shared by all Iraqis. What is so terribly idiotic about your perspective is that free market capitalism reflects the very nature of freedom and liberty. That anyone can make it if they only work hard, (for many that is asking to much).. The natural dynamics of capitalism reflect the random chaos and diversity of nature. The evolving attributes natural selection mirror the effects of growth and change in free markets. With checks, balances and corruption laws that toss crooks in jail, we can assure equality of opportunity, while not slipping into a socially Darwinistic atmosphere. Within this consortium people have the opportunity to live free moral lives apart from the intrusive temperament of government. The nature of capitalism is this. Power; rather than being controlled by a central authority, is managed by the consumer, or the people, (this is why socialists, like you silly liberals, always attempt to prove that the average person is stupid, in need to be ruled by the wise aristocrat). All people in a Americanized system are equally free to establish consumer based businesses, improving standards of living, pursuing happiness and buying the products and services they wish. It works great, the proof is every where you look. BUT, propagators like yourself want to convince people that this system is inherently problematic and discriminates. You propagates the Immiserizion thesis of Marx, standard leftists strategy to attempt and persuade folks that misery is everywhere else in the world and it is caused by us working folks . You are fear mongerors, preaching your socialistic religions apocalyptic tail of mass misery and global catastrophe. The sadist thing of all is when you pathetic socialists really have the chance to change the world, you instead oppose freeing the good people of Iraq, and argue for the status quo, in favor of terrorists and tyrants. You socialists are these pathetic miserable feeble minded fanatics who are fearfully clinging to a failed philosophy, and because of your weak and mindless mentality, you spew a regurgitated acidic venom of self fright and nihilistic doubt, terrified that if you lose your grip, you will fall far into the unknown.
An Italian fascist in the likes of Mussolini, editor of Avanti, a socialist newspaper.
There ya go Italian.
You weren't even phishing for the likes of him but caught one anyway.
Now we get to scroll by a couple of nutcases from either end of the western spectrum having at each other.
With any luck ya'll will keep each other busy; rest of us will have to scroll across, but, at least ya'll both be busy and scrollable.
LeeC, what’s up. Lee here is a classic example of a self absorbed nihilist. He believe in the religion of socialism and self worship therefore suffers from depression.
"Lee here is a classic example of a self absorbed nihilist. Etc."
And you're an idiot; don't know what half those words mean; although you have learned to repeat them and spell them (warning ‘bout the Italian; he's a hell of a lot smarter than you are--no less crazy, hardly less vicious, but a lot smarter--that's all the warning I'm gonna give ya).
No wonder Zeyad quit posting; crazies taking over all the comments places and hangin’ here still waitin’ to be crazies again.
LeeC, why are you so mean, I didn't call you names, I only made fun of your dumb belief system.
oh, I see this is where all the leftist have gathered to vent their rage.
"LeeC, why are you so mean, I didn't call you names…"
Well then, you missed your best chance to at least call me a a self absorbed nihilist…suffering from depression.
Damn, and you had the chance too! And there you went and blew it.
that is an observation.
Who is this Italian Nazi that posts here?
Post Script:
Italian doesn't need to convince me that the "resistance" of which he writes glowingly ain't killing mostly Iraqi rather than Americans.
He needs to convince the Iraqi, and I think they know better.
Several Iraqi have posted; let's see him take that up with them.
Well LeeC, I'm glad you don't agree with a Nazi.
Yes, perhaps the Iraqis can address this statement,
"Why would ANY member of the genuine Iraqi patriotic resistance (that is strengthening and spreading more and more, BTW) want to kill ANY Iraqi civilians?"
Zeyad,
It's okay with me if you voted no. It's your vote. It does matter that your voice is heard, that you have an opinion, and you can vote for your own future, and the future of your country, and the future of your goverment.
That's what matters. That's what it's all about.
"Do you expect the votes for Iraqis in Iran will be against Al Hakim?"
I do not know. I understand the suspicion.
What is the solution? Should Iraqi still in Iran be forbidden to vote next time?
Should Iraqi in America or England or anywhere in The West be forbidden to vote next time?
I think there should be one rule; universally applied. I do not think Iraqi in the U.S. should vote, but Iraqi in Iran should note.
I think the question should be, should expatriate Iraqi be allowed to vote?
I am not committed to my opinion on that question. Either way is good for me so long as the rule is universally applied. What the rule should be should be decided by the Iraqi people (I lean towards the decision be made by Iraqi IN Iraq, but that's only my opinion.)
"Well LeeC, I'm glad you don't agree with a Nazi."
He, Italian, is a dedicated anti-American troll, might well be a socialist, or communist, or might well be simply dedicated anti-American in all phases, regardless of other ideology.
You are closer to being the Nazi. I don't agree with either one of you.
So what do we have here?
1. An Iraqi, who votes against a badly written Constitution.
2. An Italian, who imagines a stagnant, putrid, genocidal Iraq is far better than one meddled with by Americans.
3. And Lee, who imagines there is no intellectual argument here worth mentioning.
I have a tendency to agree with the first point. Click...(changing the channel)
I have a tendency to agree with the first point. Click...(changing the channel)"
"Click--change channels?" Was that the first point or the third point, or do you really know?
Ugh. Lee needs validation.
OK, fine. Everything you say Lee is pure genius. It is an incredible stroke of luck to actually be in your presence. Your comment that expatriates should be entitled to vote or not vote was awe inspiring. I’m having your comment laminated for my billfold.
There. Can I go now?
"There. Can I go now?"
You mean you're still here?
It's ok. We rejected our first constitution too. Ever here of the articles of confederation?
-- Richard Zeien
Zeyad,
Thanks for posting. Glad you're alive and well enough to vote. Congratulations ON voting. Best wishes for you and Iraqis.
Where is this punk An Italian. I love beating on these thug socialists Nazis. LeeC, why do you call me a Nazi, Us Americans are the ones who killed all the Nazis. These silly liberals never make any sense. LeeC, I am sorry people picked on you as a kid, it wasn't me. You should vent your rage at the enemy, not your fellow county-men.
Lee C,
I think my English is sufficient to enable me to grasp the subtlety on my own..... after all I was educated in the UK. How is your Arabic? I think it is time to stop this banter between us, you are obviously insinuating I have no knowledge of what is happening in Iraq now, despite the fact I am in constant contact with friends and family there and my husband's account of the situation. Give it a rest.....I am tired of this exchange which is going nowhere and getting boring, believe what you want if it makes you happy...... your opinion is of little consequence.
Um Ayad, don't mind LeeC, he has a mental disorder called liberalism. He is a ego-maniacal self worshiper.
"you are obviously insinuating I have no knowledge of what is happening in Iraq now…"
No, I was rather explicit on what I meant. And I did not mean anything I did not write. You are too interested in Bush's political fortunes and not enough interested in Iraq's. Busting on Bush is NOT a good reason to vote against the Iraqi constitution. That it's not necessarily good for Iraq would be a good reason, but you didn't list that one; you listed busting on Bush and Blair.
"LeeC, I am sorry people picked on you as a kid…"
Them that tried learned quick enough to not try that again. The rest of your spiel makes no better accomodation to reality than that did. But, there's no point in taking it apart phrase by phrase; you're not worth the effort.
Hello, glad you are still with us, Z.
I shall read these many comments in depth later, so forgive if I repeat others' comments.
Iraq now has the opportunity to use that grand old tradition, the amendment. Some disparage the US constitution as assuring rights only for white men. Not so! It assured rights for all, even if the US failed to live up to that for quite some time.
Slaves were apportioned the 3/5 status for taxation and numbers of representatives (Art. 1, Sec. 2, Clasue 3), but that was dimissed with the 14th and 16th amendments.
The US constitution, and many others, lays the groundwork for liberty for all, not just white, male, land owning gentry. Our Euro friends did not catch up for many many years.
Hopefully, Iraq may amend this constitution to be more equitable and secular, or, like our Articles of Confederation, perhaps it will be replaced at some later time. Peacefully, I hope. At this moment, I am visiting in northern Virginia. The area is still red with the blood of Americans who fought horrible battles in our Civil War. May it never come to that for Iraq!
Zeyad, I believe this article is about your cousin Zaydoon.
http://select.nytimes.com/previe...&
pagewanted=all
@ Dear Dixiemonkey Lee C. ― U.S.A., 10.18.05 - 10:44 pm & 11:31 pm.
“You are a friggin’ troll; surely you don't expect me to take you seriously just because you think you're good at it?”
Now, my dear Cercopith Lee, in my previous post I was just humbly pointing out a couple of little lies of yours.
I do understand from this answer of yours that you have conceded my point.
Differently from most US warmongers, who do lie knowing what they are doing, when you are in your maniac phase weird lies come out of you just in the heat of the moment, with no awareness and no guile on your part. So you are fully pardoned.
And I thank you, and I’m deeply moved by your compliments [“(warning ‘bout the Italian; he's a hell of a lot smarter than you are--no less crazy, hardly less vicious, but a lot smarter--that's all the warning I'm gonna give ya)”]; but, on my part, I humbly feel I do not deserve them at all. You see, any human being (i.e. ‘a rational animal’, according to that definition by 4th century BC Greek philosopher Aristotle) is for sure “a lot smarter” that any animal deprived of reason instead (i.e., just an animal), like any US warmongering ape or monkey is. So I cannot claim any undue credit.
“crazies taking over all the comments places”.
Hear, hear!
My heartfelt regards,
@ Dear ‘buffalo slayer’, 10.18.05 - 10:54 pm & 11:58 pm.
My dear ‘buffalo slayer’, I do strongly suspect that you are just a buffalo, instead, not a ‘buffalo slayer’. Like a male buffalo, with no knowledge at all of the environment, when you just feel you saw red, you blindly charge.
But I’m truly impressed by the skills of American genetic sciences: it seems that they managed to mix up the genes of a buffalo and of a specimen of US warmongering ape (Americopitecus Bellicus); and so we have, in your person, a four-handed buffalo! A first for genetic science!
My lovely hybrid, if you were not a newcomer to Zeyad’s comments pages, you would have known that the most stupid of your silly allegations (“fascist mentality”, “An Italian fascist in the likes of Mussolini” “this Italian Nazi”) do not wash with me. You see, my Buffalo, in most places outside the US of America blood is thicker than water; and with a Jewish granny on one side of my family, and a WW2 partisan mother on the other, I couldn’t have become a Fascist or a Nazi even if I had wanted to…
But your further funny ideological labels are most revealing of the ignorance of Americans about any reality outside of the illogical rants of their Administration and ‘opinion makers’.
So, for instance, my mooing friend, to allege that in “Eurabia” (a funny ideological construct of yours by itself) there is some “extremism and socialistic fascist mentality” is something that would make any European (right, centre and left) laugh most heartily; and, BTW, what the heck is a “socialistic fascist mentality”?
And you got even better further on: putting together, in the same breath, ‘socialists’ and ‘liberals’. Now, dear American friend, if you had any inkling at all about the history of political thought, you would know that your present US use of the term ‘liberalism’ is absolutely grotesque. Outside the US the term (invented in England and in France in the early 19th century) does mean about the OPPOSITE of what you claim. ‘Liberal’ (not ‘Libertarian’) outside the US means, in political terms, somebody who is strongly against ANY State intervention in the economy, who is strongly in favour of property rights, who is strongly in favour of ‘capitalism’; i.e., somebody quite strongly RIGHT wing.
Instead you make a nice stew, where these evil ‘Eurabians’ are at the same time ‘nazi/fascist’, ‘socialist’ and ‘liberal’. Is Jacques Chirac a ‘fascist’? Is he a ‘Leftie’? Boh…
Now, you wonder of genetic engineering, my apish Buffalo: these comments pages are read by people from all corners of the Earth, not just by Americans: do not make yourself ridiculous. Do get some good history of political doctrines or political thought (preferably not written by an American), do study it, and do become a wee bit more knowledgeable about what you mindlessly write.
(continued…)
(…continued)
As for your further silly allegations, my mooing four-handed critter, each one is more grotesque than the next.
Did I ever utter a single word about ‘capitalism’ (“evil” or otherwise)?
No, I never did, as Zeyad (and all readers) can tell.
Did I ever say anything about ‘oil’ as the reason for your criminal invasion of Iraq?
No, I did not.
Did I ever argue on the basis of those rather lame 19th century Marxian arguments you accused me of?
No, never.
So, this is just baloney (or the s**t of a male buffalo with four hands, LOL); and one can attribute it to your bottomless ignorance.
But there are things even you Buffalo/Ape beast should be aware of: for instance, me prodigy of genetic science, when you accuse me (and all the anti-war people) of arguing “that freeing people from the iron grip of oppression is wrong”, or when you claim that we “oppose freeing the good people of Iraq, and argue for the status quo, in favor of terrorists and tyrants”.
Now, you buffoon born out of an unholy mixture of a bovid and a primate, do you think that you have ‘freed’ the Iraqis from oppression, you fool? And who is “in favour of terrorists and tyrants”, like the SCIRI/Badr, the Dawa, the Sadrists, and the two Kurdish gangs of mafiamen? We, who opposed from the beginning your Iraqi criminal invasion, or YOU beastly warmongering Americans?
Did you see the RIGGED ‘Constitution’ referendum, you fool? ‘Fweedom & Democwacy’ INDEED!
Now, you clown, keep mooing (‘mooooo’… ‘moooooo’… ‘mooooooo’) and jumping up and down.
@ Tiny Sails, 10.19.05 - 1:24 am.
You wrote:
"So what do we have here?
1. An Iraqi, who votes against a badly written Constitution.
2. An Italian, who imagines a stagnant, putrid, genocidal Iraq is far better than one meddled with by Americans.
3. [Etc]."
Oh my dear thing, your sails are about as wide as your brain.
You seems not to register that this bloody 'An Italian' is in perfect agreement with Zeyad, and for precisely the same reasons.
"And I thank you, and I’m deeply moved by your compliments…"
When you come to know Buffalo Slayer better you'll realize that was not necessarily a compliment. Most folks are smarter than he is.
@ 'buffalo slayer', 10.19.05 - 3:00 pm.
"Where is this punk An Italian. I love beating on these thug socialists Nazis. LeeC, why do you call me a Nazi, Us Americans are the ones who killed all the Nazis. These silly liberals never make any sense".
Now, me wee slayed apish Buffalo, about your political confusions, this shows how much my above post is founded.
As for the rest, US critter, for sure you are let's say uh... slighty unfamiliar with political sciences, but for sure you'd be a good psychiatrist maybe...
Dear Zeyad,
now you see the truth (that unfortunately you knew already) in our friend Rickvid's comments:
"Slaves were apportioned the 3/5 status for taxation and numbers of representatives" (Rickvid in Seattle, 10.19.05 - 8:10 pm).
Uhm, nice!
A pity this referendum on the Iraq-destroying US-Iranian 'Constitution' was completely rigged by the Shiite fundamentalist and Kurdish mafia gangs... (i.e., a complete FRAUD).
Ain't it proper Ahmehwican 'Fweedom & Democwacy'?
And you are complaining!!!
You NASTY, ungrateful one!
PeteS, come back and visit for a bit.
"BTW, what the heck is a “socialistic fascist mentality”?"
Dear An Italian,
A fascist is a radical left wing politician. The socialists have always been the vehicle of fascism. That is just common knowledge, you folks from Eurabia, are always trying to distort your history of fascist control.
Dear An Italian
"with a Jewish granny on one side of my family"
Are you one of those jews who hates his own people like Noam Chompski?
Dear An Italian
"Liberal’ (not ‘Libertarian’) outside the US means, in political terms, somebody who is strongly against ANY State intervention in the economy, who is strongly in favour of property rights, who is strongly in favour of ‘capitalism’; i.e., somebody quite strongly RIGHT wing."
You are only demonstrating your ignorance of our more evolved culture.
A liberal in the USA is a socialist, A libertarian is always on the republican side.
‘By definition’, Maurice Cranston rightly pointed out, ‘a liberal is a man who believes in liberty’ (Cranston, 459). In two different ways, liberals accord liberty primacy as a political value. First, liberals have typically maintained that humans are naturally in ‘a State of perfect Freedom to order their Actions…as they think fit…without asking leave, or depending on the Will of any other Man’ (Locke, 1960 [1689]: 287). Mill too argued that ‘[T]he burden of proof is supposed to ith those who are against liberty; who contend for any restriction or prohibition…. The a priori assumption is in favour of freedom…’(Mill, 1991 [1859]: 472). This might be called the Fundamental Liberal Principle (Gaus, 1996: 162-166): freedom is normatively basic, and so the onus of justification is on those who would limit freedom. It follows from this that political authority and law must be justified, as they limit the liberty of citizens. Consequently, a central question of liberal political theory is whether political authority can be justified, and if so, how. It is for this reason that social contract theory, as developed by Thomas Hobbes (1948 [1651]), John Locke (1960 [1689]), Jean-Jacques Rousseau (1973 [1762]) and Immanuel Kant (1965 [1797]), is usually viewed as liberal even though the actual political prescriptions of, say, Hobbes and Rousseau, have distinctly illiberal features. Insofar as they take as their starting point a state of nature in which humans are free and equal, and so argue that any limitation of this freedom and equality stands in need of justification (i.e., by the social contract), the contractual tradition expresses the Fundamental Liberal Principle.
"do you think that you have ‘freed’ the Iraqis from oppression, you fool?"
Dear an Italian,
See, we try, you don't.
An Italian,
I am unimpressed. Besides the creative insults you have demonstrated nothing except the ‘feeling’ that you know the political philosophical beginnings of different ideologies and I don’t, (which is wrong.) The only thing you demonstrated was you posses complete ignorance to Americas political culture, and an unbridled obsession with the belief that fighting to free the oppressed people of the world is some how wrong.
These socialist fascists like An Italian are a true threat to the freedom of humanity.
"A pity this referendum on the Iraq-destroying US-Iranian 'Constitution' was completely rigged by the Shiite fundamentalist and Kurdish mafia gangs..."
AN Italian
This is just dumb. What a hateful tyrant this man is.
So An Italian, What do you think of the Jews?????????
Welcome back. I hope it means all is well with you.
An Italian Fascist,
Socialists are fools who’s minds have been poisoned by a venom that consumes the simple mind. It is so obvious, but yet they are so blind to it, all they see is fire. It is funny , but sad. How hard life must be to live in such darkness, such despair, such negativity. I pity you socialists. I wish you were happy. But feeding the false ego, only makes them more lustful. They lust for tragedy and failure of our troops, our sons and our daughters. They do this to support and perhaps be antidotal to their feeble world view and perspective, their cancer of the mind.
"O monks know that all things are on fire. And what are they that are on fire? The eye, the forms, the eye-consciousness, the impressions, and whatever sensation, whether pleasant, unpleasant or neutral that arises from the impressions received by the eye, they are all in fire.
"And with what are they on fire? I say with the fire of lust, of aversion, and passion (raga, dvesha and moha); with birth, with old age, with death, lamentation, misery, grief and despair, they are on fire.
"Similar is the case with the ear, with the nose, the tongue and the sense of touch. The mind is also on fire. The thoughts are on fire. The mind-consciousness, the impressions received by the mind and the sensations that arise from such impressions, also are on fire.
buddha
"In The Antichrist, Curse on Christianity (Der Antichrist. Fluch auf das Christentum, September 188, Nietzsche expresses his disgust over the way noble values in Roman Society were "corrupted" by the rise of Christianity, and he discusses specific aspects and personages in Christian culture -- the Gospels, Paul, the martyrs, priests, the crusades -- with a view towards showing that Christianity is a religion for weak and unhealthy people, whose general historical effect has been to undermine the healthy qualities of the more noble cultures.
Nietzsche Contra Wagner, Out of the Files of a Psychologist (Nietzsche contra Wagner, Aktenstücke eines Psychologen, December 188 is a short, but classic, selection of passages Nietzsche extracted from his 1878-1887 published works. Many concern Wagner, but the excerpts serve mostly as a foil for Nietzsche to express his own views against Wagner's. In this self-portrait, completed only a month before his collapse, Nietzsche characterizes his own anti-Christian sentiments, and contemplates how even the greatest people usually undergo significant corruption. In Wagner's case, Nietzsche claims that the corrupting force was Christianity. At the same time, Nietzsche describes how he truly admired some of Wagner's music for its deep expressions of loneliness and suffering -- expressions which Nietzsche admitted were psychologically impossible for he himself to articulate.
During the 1930's, aspects of Nietzsche's thought were espoused by the Nazis and Italian Fascists, partly due to the encouragement of Elisabeth Förster-Nietzsche through her solicitations with Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini. It was possible for the Nazi interpreters to assemble, quite selectively, various passages from Nietzsche's writings whose juxtaposition appeared to justify war, aggression and domination for the sake of nationalistic and racial self-glorification."
"Benito Mussolini (1883-1945) over the course of his lifetime went from Socialism - he was editor of Avanti, a socialist newspaper - to the leadership of a new political movement called "fascism" [after "fasces", the symbol of bound sticks used a totem of power in ancient Rome].
Mussolini came to power after the "March on Rome" in 1922, and was appointed Prime Minister by King Victor Emmanuel.
In 1932 Mussolini wrote (with the help of Giovanni Gentile) and entry for the Italian Encyclopedia on the definition of fascism.
Fascism, the more it considers and observes the future and the development of humanity quite apart from political considerations of the moment, believes neither in the possibility nor the utility of perpetual peace. It thus repudiates the doctrine of Pacifism -- born of a renunciation of the struggle and an act of cowardice in the face of sacrifice. War alone brings up to its highest tension all human energy and puts the stamp of nobility upon the peoples who have courage to meet it. All other trials are substitutes, which never really put men into the position where they have to make the great decision -- the alternative of life or death....
...The Fascist accepts life and loves it, knowing nothing of and despising suicide: he rather conceives of life as duty and struggle and conquest, but above all for others -- those who are at hand and those who are far distant, contemporaries, and those who will come after...
...Fascism [is] the complete opposite of…Marxian Socialism, the materialist conception of history of human civilization can be explained simply through the conflict of interests among the various social groups and by the change and development in the means and instruments of production.... Fascism, now and always, believes in holiness and in heroism; that is to say, in actions influenced by no economic motive, direct or indirect. And if the economic conception of history be denied, according to which theory men are no more than puppets, carried to and fro by the waves of chance, while the real directing forces are quite out of their control, it follows that the existence of an unchangeable and unchanging class-war is also denied - the natural progeny of the economic conception of history. And above all Fascism denies that class-war can be the preponderant force in the transformation of society....
After Socialism, Fascism combats the whole complex system of democratic ideology, and repudiates it, whether in its theoretical premises or in its practical application. Fascism denies that the majority, by the simple fact that it is a majority, can direct human society; it denies that numbers alone can govern by means of a periodical consultation, and it affirms the immutable, beneficial, and fruitful inequality of mankind, which can never be permanently leveled through the mere operation of a mechanical process such as universal suffrage....
...Fascism denies, in democracy, the absur[d] conventional untruth of political equality dressed out in the garb of collective irresponsibility, and the myth of "happiness" and indefinite progress....
...iven that the nineteenth century was the century of Socialism, of Liberalism, and of Democracy, it does not necessarily follow that the twentieth century must also be a century of Socialism, Liberalism and Democracy: political doctrines pass, but humanity remains, and it may rather be expected that this will be a century of authority...a century of Fascism. For if the nineteenth century was a century of individualism it may be expected that this will be the century of collectivism and hence the century of the State....
The foundation of Fascism is the conception of the State, its character, its duty, and its aim. Fascism conceives of the State as an absolute, in comparison with which all individuals or groups are relative, only to be conceived of in their relation to the State. The conception of the Liberal State is not that of a directing force, guiding the play and development, both material and spiritual, of a collective body, but merely a force limited to the function of recording results: on the other hand, the Fascist State is itself conscious and has itself a will and a personality -- thus it may be called the "ethic" State....
...The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone....
...For Fascism, the growth of empire, that is to say the expansion of the nation, is an essential manifestation of vitality, and its opposite a sign of decadence. Peoples which are rising, or rising again after a period of decadence, are always imperialist; and renunciation is a sign of decay and of death. Fascism is the doctrine best adapted to represent the tendencies and the aspirations of a people, like the people of Italy, who are rising again after many centuries of abasement and foreign servitude. But empire demands discipline, the coordination of all forces and a deeply felt sense of duty and sacrifice: this fact explains many aspects of the practical working of the regime, the character of many forces in the State, and the necessarily severe measures which must be taken against those who would oppose this spontaneous and inevitable movement of Italy in the twentieth century, and would oppose it by recalling the outworn ideology of the nineteenth century - repudiated wheresoever there has been the courage to undertake great experiments of social and political transformation; for never before has the nation stood more in need of authority, of direction and order. If every age has its own characteristic doctrine, there are a thousand signs which point to Fascism as the characteristic doctrine of our time. For if a doctrine must be a living thing, this is proved by the fact that Fascism has created a living faith; and that this faith is very powerful in the minds of men is demonstrated by those who have suffered and died for it."
"The perfect man uses his mind as a mirror. It grasps nothing. It regrets nothing. It receives but does not keep."
"He who knows he is a fool is not the biggest fool; He who knows he is confused is not in the worst confusion."
"Flow with whatever is happening and let your mind be free. Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing. This is the ultimate."
"Once you've gotten the meaning, you can forget the words."
"Easy is right. Begin right and you are easy. Continue easy and you are right. The right way to go easy Is to forget the right way And forget that the going is easy."
"Cherish that which is within you, and shut off that which is without; for too much knowledge is a curse."
“Rewards and punishments are the lowest form of education."
“Do not struggle. Go with the flow of things, and you will find yourself at one with the mysterious unity of the Universe.”
Attn: FREE PEOPLE OF THE WORLD.
Folks Beware of the Global Socialists like An Italian. These hatful propagators of global rule, are the darlings of the fascists. They are the intellectual sword of the ruling aristocracy of Eurabia. They profess the rape of the working man, extorting all profits from our pockets. He is a brutal and lustful activist, who is driven by the lure and lust of the fire in the minds eye. Reigning in the power of the central government in support of their socialistic overlords. An Italian, is the very face of evil. Apologist of terrorists and tyrants. An ego-maniacal self worshiper on a crusade to replace the religions of the world with the tyrannical religion of socialism. ‘Beware of the apocalypse global warming’ they will preach. ‘Let us rule you, to save the earth and humanity‘. The lairs of man speak with forked tongues. These double speakers are to be feared.
All Hail the Global Socialists, masters of the universe. To what will our benevolent leaders grant us feeble worker bees. Perhaps, healthcare? Union Jobs? Retirement? Welfare? Please my lord, I appeal to the compassion of our socialistic masters.
Zeyad didn't have to tell us anything. A secret vote is a secret vote. Therefore, Zeyad is being generous simply by informing us that he voted at all.
PeteS, come back and visit for a bit.
Go raibh míle maith agat a Bhríd (i.e. ta very much). You, as always, are the soul of moderation in the midst of a sea of loonies. Perhaps Zeyad shouldn't have posted in the week of a full moon. It seems like some have unwrapped their Hallowe'en fruitcake early. 
Oíche Shamhna shona duit go léir, gan fiú na h-ialtóga torthaí!
Yes, my lord PeteS, we poor working folk are but loons in comparison to our benevolent Eruabian superiors. Please I beg you, the great global socialists to grant us, your poor intellectual subjects of America, your servants, us monkeys of men, some dignity.. Perhaps you will provide us with ghettos to raise our children, perhaps you will provide humanity with a world government of un-elected officials, a world aristocracy, to regulate free market capitalism. Please save us from the inevitable disaster which awaits us all, please protect us dumb-monkeys from the catastrophe global warming. It is all around, I see it, your greatest scientists have demonstrated that ice melts in heat. Please the humanity. I ask and beg that our socialistic superiors protect us feeble minded monkeys form the melting ice. You are heroes of men. The envy of terrorist and tyrants, please my lord, bless us with you infallible wisdom.
Lee C,
I am so sorry I did not know I had to give you a list of good reasons to vote against the Iraqi constitution!!! This argument is getting quite ridiculous. I would have thought it was obvious that it was not good for Iraq and I am sure the future of Iraq is more important to me than you... it will not effect you and your family but it will effect me and mine. I guess you need it spelling out for you.... I care more deeply about Iraq than you will ever know. If you care to check back on this thread you will find my comments were in response to your reply to me when I made it clear that expats would have liked to vote on the constitution, "busting on Bush and Blair" (not words I would use..... must be an American term) was NOT more my FIRST concern, it was you who brought up "Bush's political fortunes" not something I had first thought of but I agreed because I would not like to contribute to their political fortunes. I would like to see them charged in an International Court for the illegal war and crimes against humanity. Yes, I know it will not happen but I can dream. Please check back on my post of 10.17.05 - 4:03 pm
buffalo slayer, I will out-capitalist-pig you any day of the week. Apart from that your mock inferiority complex is unwarranted. (Except ... could you please stop it raining in New England. I can have that at home any day of the week. Fall bloody foliage indeed!)
Rickvid,
Your experience in Nothern Virginia is one that I think many Americans have shared and could share. I had read a lot of Civil War history before I ever visited the South. I remember my first visit to Williamsburg, then driving back up the Peninsula, past Richmond, to the Washington, D.C. area. As I drove up the Peninsula on the Interstate, every other exit sign was something like Spotsylvania, Cold Harbor, Fredericksburg... I had goose bumps off and on during a couple of hours of driving.
Let's hope Iraq avoids the worst forms of civil war. Most of our Civil War was indeed a War Between the States, with regular armies. The worst case of violence between neighbors in the night was in Missouri. If civil war expands in Iraq, I am afraid that Quantrill and Jennison's Jayhawkers--i.e., gangs of psychopathic killers--in Missouri will be the analogy, rather than Lee and Grant in Virginia. (Even Sherman's devastation was of property, not people.)
Um Ayad | Email | Homepage | 10.20.05 - 7:41 pm | #
How sad it is that an expat, would not fight for his/her own peoples freedom.
PeteS!!!!! I figured you'd still be checking in from time to time. Your good humor and intelligent comments are missed, and not just by me. Kris from Seattle remarked to me recently in another comment section how much she enjoyed reading your stuff.
I briefly cherished the hope that Zeyad was entertaining the idea of returning to us, but there's entirely to much bs.
Um Ayad, I'd like to ask you a question, if I may. One of the main objections to the constitution seems to be because of the federalist structure. Yet I see the federalist structure as one of the most important mechanisms for protecting those who are in the minority. I would think that a strong central government would be feared by the minority. Is it all about control of the oil wealth, or what else is at work here?
Yes, good to see you PeteS. I still laugh when I remember that link you posted that would convert comments to hiphop slang.
I too would be interested to hear Um Ayad's comments on the federalist structure defined in the constitution. Its funny Bridget, the two reasons you mention as to why you would've supported the draft are two of the same reasons I list for my opposition to the draft. I have others reasons also, but your two are duplicated on my list, with a different opinion as a result. I'm glad you posed the question.
"Zeyad didn't have to tell us anything. A secret vote is a secret vote. Therefore, Zeyad is being generous simply by informing us that he voted at all.
Solomon2 10.20.05 - 2:10 pm"
Zeyad would also appear to have an advanced grasp on making maximum political impact with minimum keystrokes (and minimum votes).
This particular ballot is plagued by vote fraud allegations. Posting a vote by blog when there's every indication that the real life vote has been lost in the fog is a smart move.
Thanks Solomon, for exacting some sanity back into the cesspitt that buffalo slayer aka an Italian, Lee C et all have been mulching.
Yes PeteS, us pigs are capitalistic working men. Perhaps the working monkeys of American will forfeiter our profits so are beloved socialistic superior elitists, who bless us with their art and journalism, will provide an idealistic perfect point quintessential bliss. Oh wise ones, who needs to be free, when we have our benevolent social autocrats to provide us lay folk with the essentials. We thank you so much for your giving’s. God bless our socialist masters…
Buffalo, you are an idealistic social elitist.
Stop kidding the people, unless you like it when the office working class bite back.
Oh wise one. I am what you say.
And I suppose you think everyone will think you're being sarcastic now. Oh how cleverly cloaked the pearly drops.
Even Lee C disguises "him" self better then that.
From age 15 to 22 in was a janitor. I went to college and mowed 30 laws a week, cleaned windows occasionally, and cleaned a building every night. I worked at a bar on the weekends. While all you fucking rich kids where out partying, I was working. I got my first job out of college at 12 bucks an hour and worked 70 hour weeks traveling. I bought my first house at 22 and rented all the rooms out. My second at 27. Now, you fucking despicable spoon feed socialists want to stick it to me. I despise you people. You know nothing about the poor. Fuck you very much.
But back too Iraq...
Guardian's Irish Journalist liberated
Buffalo, if this were a weep for me competition I'd tell you all about...
Except I'm not sure telling everyone how I paid my way through college would be considered gentile.
Zeyad, I consider you an old friend and respect you beyond measure. I hope all your dreams come true. May God bless and protect you and your sweet family as free human beings.
Deepest regards,
"I would like to see them [Bush and Blair] charged in an International Court for the illegal war and crimes against humanity. Yes, I know it will not happen but I can dream."
I see you're back to worrying about Bush and Blair again.
All Hail the Global Socialists, masters of the world. To what will our benevolent autocratic leaders grant us feeble worker bees. Perhaps, healthcare? Union Jobs? Retirement? Welfare? Please my lords, I appeal to the compassion of our Socialistic Masters.
Yes my lords, we poor working folk are but humble ignorant hillbillies in comparison to our benevolent Eruabian and superiors. Please I beg you, the Great and Nobel Global Socialists to grant us, (your poor inferior intellectual subjects of America), your servants, us monkeys of men, some dignity.. Perhaps you will provide us with ghettos to raise our children, perhaps you will provide humanity with a glorious world government of un-elected officials, a world aristocracy, to regulate the ‘evils’ of free market capitalism. To control the freedoms and man. Please save us from the inevitable disaster which awaits us all, please protect us, (as your great socialistic religion teaches us), from the catastrophe global warming. It is everywhere, I see it and fear it, your greatest scientists have demonstrated that ice melts in heat. Please my lords the humanity of it. I ask and beg that our socialistic superiors protect us feeble minded monkeys from the melting ice. Please I beg you to pass more laws protecting us lay folk for ourselves. You are the true heroes of men, the wise apologists of tyrants and terrorists, please my lords, bless us with you infallible wisdom.
Yes my lords, us ‘pigs,’ who are capitalistic working men, are but your humble servants. Perhaps us working monkeys of American will forfeiter our profits so are beloved socialistic superior elitists, who bless us with their art and journalism, will provide us with an idealistic perfect point of quintessential bliss. Oh wise ones, who needs to be free, when we have our benevolent social autocrats to provide us lay folk with the essentials. We thank you so much for your giving’s. God bless our socialist masters…
Lee C.,
You wrote:
For your information okba, the Iraqi "patriots" to whom An Italian refers are the insurgents and foreign Jihadi types, who just happen to be killing Iraqi citizens at a ratio of 10 to 1 over every Coalition soldier they kill. If you think that is a good thing then you will find my position is very much at odds with yours. I notice that you once supported the war to topple Saddam. I still do. My complaint about my government is that they have pretty much botched the job from day one; they got Saddam out of Baghdad all right, but much more was required and they did not seem to understand that nor were they ready for it, and Iraq has descended into chaos as a result of their incompetence and poor preparation for the aftermath. The quick run to Baghdad is a testament to the strength and competence of our military men (and women). The chaos Iraq descended into afterwords is a testament to the incompetence of our political leaders.
But, even though I cannot give the political leaders good grades, I cannot support the killing of Iraqi at a ratio of 10 to 1 just to embarrass them.
Most Americans honestly supported the effort to "bring democracy to Iraq", that's why Bush had majority support to begin this war. Most Americans do not believe they've done a good job; rather, the majority opinion over here is that they've screwed up an otherwise good idea. That's why Bush's numbers are so low now; not because it was a bad idea, but because it was incompetently handled.
But, I cannot support the killing of Iraqi at a ratio of 10 to 1, nor the killing of Coalition soldiers who are still trying to bring some semblance of order out of the chaos, just to embarrass some politicians whom I think have done a poor job of handling the aftermath of the fall of the Ba'athi.
I must wonder how you, as an Iraqi, can support that?
I tip my hat to you, Lee. That's a very even-handed assessment.
When I first read it, I recall nodding to myself and saying, "Hey, that's pretty good."
I am less convinced of the charges of incompetence than you are, about which I could easily be wrong, but I agree with the general tenor of your comment.
*
Forgot to close the italics. Let me try that again.
Lee C.,
You wrote:
For your information okba, the Iraqi "patriots" to whom An Italian refers are the insurgents and foreign Jihadi types, who just happen to be killing Iraqi citizens at a ratio of 10 to 1 over every Coalition soldier they kill. If you think that is a good thing then you will find my position is very much at odds with yours. I notice that you once supported the war to topple Saddam. I still do. My complaint about my government is that they have pretty much botched the job from day one; they got Saddam out of Baghdad all right, but much more was required and they did not seem to understand that nor were they ready for it, and Iraq has descended into chaos as a result of their incompetence and poor preparation for the aftermath. The quick run to Baghdad is a testament to the strength and competence of our military men (and women). The chaos Iraq descended into afterwords is a testament to the incompetence of our political leaders.
But, even though I cannot give the political leaders good grades, I cannot support the killing of Iraqi at a ratio of 10 to 1 just to embarrass them.
Most Americans honestly supported the effort to "bring democracy to Iraq", that's why Bush had majority support to begin this war. Most Americans do not believe they've done a good job; rather, the majority opinion over here is that they've screwed up an otherwise good idea. That's why Bush's numbers are so low now; not because it was a bad idea, but because it was incompetently handled.
But, I cannot support the killing of Iraqi at a ratio of 10 to 1, nor the killing of Coalition soldiers who are still trying to bring some semblance of order out of the chaos, just to embarrass some politicians whom I think have done a poor job of handling the aftermath of the fall of the Ba'athi.
I must wonder how you, as an Iraqi, can support that?
I tip my hat to you, Lee. That's a very even-handed assessment.
When I first read it, I recall nodding to myself and saying, "Hey, that's pretty good."
I am less convinced of the charges of incompetence than you are, about which I could easily be wrong, but I agree with the general tenor of your comment.
*
"Even Lee C disguises "him" self better then that."
Shadam de goyem.
Lee your a fucking joke.
Yes LeeC, now that we (the heroic armed forces of America) have achieved so much in such a short period of time. This creation LeeC says ‘I actually support the war just not the people who accomplished the feet.’
You sir are a shame, a pathetic hypocrite of the lowest form. Your are a creation of men. A true weasel. How low can one man go. You found the little crack in the surface of your smug discussing persona and philosophy where you can now weasel your way out the corner that you created for your self. You sir are a disgrace.
I see you found a few fools who will give you an ounce of respect only because they followed your foolish DNC leaders down the same dead end road. Now they cheer you for finding a path out of the woods.
All Hail the Global Socialists, masters of the world. To what will our benevolent autocratic leaders grant us feeble worker bees. Perhaps, healthcare? Union Jobs? Retirement? Welfare? Please my lords, I appeal to the compassion of our Socialistic Masters.
Yes my lords, we poor working folk are but humble ignorant hillbillies in comparison to our benevolent Eruabian and superiors. Please I beg you, the Great and Nobel Global Socialists to grant us, (your poor inferior intellectual subjects of America), your servants, us monkeys of men, some dignity.. Perhaps you will provide us with ghettos to raise our children, perhaps you will provide humanity with a glorious world government of un-elected officials, a world aristocracy, to regulate the ‘evils’ of free market capitalism. To control the freedoms and man. Please save us from the inevitable disaster which awaits us all, please protect us, (as your great socialistic religion teaches us), from the catastrophe global warming. It is everywhere, I see it and fear it, your greatest scientists have demonstrated that ice melts in heat. Please my lords the humanity of it. I ask and beg that our socialistic superiors protect us feeble minded monkeys from the melting ice. Please I beg you to pass more laws protecting us lay folk for ourselves. You are the true heroes of men, the wise apologists of tyrants and terrorists, please my lords, bless us with you infallible wisdom.
Yes my lords, us ‘pigs,’ who are capitalistic working men, are but your humble servants. Perhaps us working monkeys of American will forfeiter our profits so are beloved socialistic superior elitists, who bless us with their art and journalism, will provide us with an idealistic perfect point of quintessential bliss. Oh wise ones, who needs to be free, when we have our benevolent social autocrats to provide us lay folk with the essentials. We thank you so much for your giving’s. God bless our socialist masters…
Zeyad,
I just finished re-reading your four-part series, Iraq's Tribal Society: a state within a state.
Go here for links to all four parts:
Iraq's Tribal Society: a state within a state.
In part four you began to talk about the re-emergence of tribal influence in Iraq today.
I'm assuming you've worked up some notes for a Part Five. Have you thought about posting what you have? Reasoned speculation would be interesting too.
*
Lee,
It is strange how you seem to attract all the junkyard dogs along the railroad tracks. "Buffalo Slayer" is just the last in a long line of yapping mutts.
Heh heh.
You deserve much better, Lee.
*
@ Bridget, 10.20.05 - 7:56 pm.
Dear Bridget,
I do hope that Um Ayad (and other Iraqis, even, maybe, Zeyad himself…) will answer your question about federalism in the Iraqi ‘Constitution’.
In the case of Iraq there are many forces (or so the Iraqis by now suspect) that would love to have a fragmented Iraq, with or without a state of permanent internal warfare. Apart from the Israeli Likhud and the US Neo-Cons more aligned to them, there are the Kurdish parties (KDP & PUP) who see as their essential aspiration complete independence FROM Iraq; then there are the Teheran Ayatollahs and the Iraqi Shiite religious parties, who would like to impose their tenets over the whole of Iraq (and make of it an Islamic Republic of the Iranian brand, allied to Iran), but who are prepared to settle instead for the largest extent of land they can control. It is not so much about “control of the oil wealth” by itself, as about getting control of the people and of the territory.
The “federalist structure” as established by this Iraqi ‘Constitution’, far from being “one of the most important mechanisms for protecting those who are in the minority” is the recipe for the break up of Iraq; and in each of the resulting fragments absolutely NO ‘minorities’ would be tolerated (as the Shiite religious parties have shown in this referendum, making up Saddamite ‘majorities’ of 99 % in the areas they militarily control). Apart from that, do you think that Zeyad, or any secular Iraqi of whatever denomination by birth (Sunni, Shiite or Christian) could be in favour of a ‘Constitution’ where religious control is put into force from its very ‘Preamble’?
@ PeteS, 10.20.05 - 6:38 pm.
Happy Halloween to you as well, Pete, but your Irish is getting more and more difficult! (and, besides, dem fairies are telling me that the proper lenition of ‘ialtóga’ should be ‘n-ialtóga’, not ‘h-ialtóga’).
Thank you for your kindness in wishing us all to be spared by vampires even that night (if I got it correctly), but I don’t know how it goes down with Zeyad and all Iraqis, since, as you know, following the glorious US ‘liberation’ they are currently being sucked dry all nights (and all days) by no end of vampires (some of them, it is rumoured, of the four-handed variety).
@ ‘buffalo slayer’, from 10.19.05 - 10:21 pm to 10.20.05 - 11:09 pm.
Dear Buffalo,
From all these ranting posts of yours, I do suspect that you suffer from an advanced case of the mad cow disease (BSE), to the point of incontinence (spreading your incredible manure all over Zeyad’s comments page).
You should truly show a wee bit of respect for our host Zeyad, don’t you think?
Now, OK, we ‘Eurabians’ are all ‘Global Socialists’ (and ‘Nazi/Commie/Liberals’ as well): Jacques Chirac, Her Sovereign Majesty the Queen of England, PeteS, and me. You forgot to mention that we are all in league with the UFOs as well.
“I went to college and mowed”: no, you just mooed.
Now, dear Bovine, even if I’m not precisely a fan of the US of America, I think that it would be quite unfair to the US and their inhabitants to ascribe your delirium to US “more evolved culture” or “to America[’]s political culture”; it’s much safer to attribute your rants to the mad cow disease.
For once our Lee C. (10.19.05 - 9:16 pm) was right: not just “folks”, but most animals (including apes & monkeys) are for sure ‘smarter than you are’.
pathetic.
Zeyad,
Welcome back - we sure missed you and worried about you. We feel for you and your countrymen. Ignore the irrational rantings.. please write again. How is the dental business? And the family? Be well. Good luck and may God bless you, guide the nation. There is a long, hard road ahead, but will be worth it. The next generation will thank you.
"and in each of the resulting fragments absolutely NO ‘minorities’ would be tolerated "
But in some of them, the "minorities" will be the majority.
"Lee,
It is strange how you seem to attract all the junkyard dogs along the railroad tracks."
Now Lee C., he's trouble
And he stands about six feet four
All the downtown ladies call him: "treetop lover"
The studs they call him: "Sir"
(Yeah) He's bad, bad Lee C.,
baddest man in the whole damn town
Badder that old King Kong
and he's meaner that a junkyard dog.
Bridget, 10.22.05 - 2:33 am.
"But in some of them, the 'minorities' will be the majority".
Yeah, Bridget: but there'd be NO Iraq left.
Scroll the troll, An Italian apologist to tyrant and terrorists.
Muslim schism
In early Islamic history the Shia were a political faction ('party of Ali') that supported the power of Ali, son-in-law of the Prophet Mohammed and the fourth caliph (temporal and spiritual ruler) of the Muslim community.
Ali was murdered in 661AD and his chief opponent, Muawiya, became caliph. It was Ali's death that led to the great schism between Sunnis and Shias.
Caliph Muawiya was later succeeded by his son Yazid, but Ali's son Hussein refused to accept his legitimacy. Hussein claimed the right to become caliph and fighting between the two resulted.
Hussein and his followers were massacred in battle near Karbala in AD680.
Both Ali and Hussein's death gave rise to the Shia cult of martyrdom and sense of betrayal.
Shia has always been the rigid faith of the poor and oppressed waiting for deliverance. It is seen as a messianic faith which awaits the coming of the "hidden Imam", Allah's messenger who will reverse their fortunes and herald the reign of divine justice.
Today, they make up about 15% of the total worldwide Muslim population.
No one holds or claims the position of caliph today. The caliphate was abolished in 1924 by the secular government in Turkey after the demise of the Ottoman Empire.
A central element of the radical ideology is the goal of establishing a single
great Islamic empire -- an Uma Islamiyya -- encompassing all "Muslim lands"
and guided by a strict adherence to Shari'a. Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the
spiritual and political leader of Iran's Islamic revolution, envisioned a
revival of the Islamic Caliphate that swept across much of Asia, Africa, and
Europe in the seventh century. Khomeini understood that efforts to re-
establish the Islamic empire placed radical Islam, led by Iran, in direct
confrontation with the West, led by the United States (which Khomeini called
"the Great Satan"). He predicted an inevitable "clash of civilizations" with
the West, a confrontation which Islam was divinely ordained to win.
It is seen as a messianic faith which awaits the coming of the "hidden Imam", Allah's messenger who will reverse their fortunes and herald the reign of divine justice.
Hidden? Khomeini was an Authoritarian ruler who pronounced himself the Islamic Caliphate creating nothing more than an religious autocratic class level society. His decisions supported nothing but the continued survival of the ‘forest of turbans,’ or the aristocratic ruling class.
Shia has always been the rigid faith of the poor and oppressed waiting for deliverance. It is seen as a messianic faith which awaits the coming of the "hidden Imam", Allah's messenger who will reverse their fortunes and herald the reign of divine justice.
When people take the liberty to choose and submit themselves to God in a free society, it is at this very point, that a simple personal choice is made to be moral. Morality which is fashioned through the creation of character and the personal aptitude necessary to achieve comfort of consciousness. It is within this consortium where the collective will of the compassionate society is fostered. Morality apart from authoritarian governance and the so called will of oppressive power regulators. It is at this point the messenger (the free people of the world), will reverse the Shia fortunes and herald the reign of divine justice.
"Now, OK, we ‘Eurabians’ are all ‘Global Socialists’ (and ‘Nazi/Commie/Liberals’ as well):"
An Italian Fascist.
You Eurabians, (not all my fair minded fascist), a simple (generalization), will not fight for human freedom, most of your monolithic leaders and news propaganda outlets support appeasement of tyrants, glorification of terrorists , and unbridled anti-Americanism. Is this just for pride of the ego or are you eurabians commi socialists? If it is for the pride of the ego, that you people lustfully hate the diverse and free people of America, you should know being a Jew, that this was the sin of Moses, as he was condemned to perch upon Mt. Nebo only to gaze upon the bountiful fruits of the promises land below. If you are in fact a Socialist, you should pay more respect to ‘liberals’ like LeeC, because Americans like him worship the socialistic religion as well . Hitler was a socialist, in fact the head of the national socialist movement. Mussolini was a socialist and a fascist. Why do Eurabians forget their past so easily. Stalin was a socialist. Now you modem socialists say, no we are different, trust us, ‘federalism is bad because it creates a weak central government’. We must centralize the powers of man so we can control all aspects of society‘. I swear to God you socialists will never learn, I wonder who the next tyrant will be that you un leash upon humanity.
My Lord an Italian, O great one, our benevolent Global Socialist.
Please bless thee with thou wisdom of the ego and lust. Teach us free people of America of ‘idol worship’ and the nihilistic philosophical belief in the self. Please free us from the tyranny of free people; please my Lord, free us from the controlling hope of the majority. O an Italian O wise one. We must destroy these so called patriots of freedom and rein in the era of the lustful social aristocrat who will save us all from the apocalypse Global Warming. O bless thou an Italian our socialistic Lord of us American working man. We gladly forfeiture or profits for the schemes of the Global Autocrats. O appeasers of tyrants and terrorists, bless us free monkeys of America, with your monolithic art and journalism.
An Italian,
If the secular Iraqis are indeed in the majority, they will have an opportunity to amend the constitution and modify the more objectionable provisions.
If the secularists are not in the majority, and Islamic fundamentalists are, then a strong central government would be quite likely to result in the sort of religious control that they fear.
What choices do the secularists have?
A. They can attempt to seize control of the country by force and impose their will on the majority, (which is what I believe to be the goal of the insurgency),or
B. They can take refuge in a federalist system under which they have a great deal of latitude to form a society and system of laws and government more to their liking.
I don't think it necessarily follows that the country will break up. In Iraq, the whole is much greater than the sum of the parts. I believe that is probably already clear to most Iraqis, and will become even more clear if they can learn to trust each other.
I don't know about you, but I would have a great deal of difficulty learning to trust someone who was controlling my life in ways I didn't like. Trust needs to be built up over time, from a comfortable distance at first, and based on mutually agreeable and beneficial transactions.
Hello Zeyad,
I haven't checked your blog recently. I am glad to see a new post from you. I agree with your no vote. The Constitution, as currently written, doesn't represent all Iraqi people. I am worried that if it passes, the violence will only increase. The reports of vote fraud are disturbing, and I think that they will only encourage the Sunnis to believe that the vote was rigged against them if the Constitution passes.
I hope that you will return to blogging more frequently. Your voice has been one of reason, and it has helped me to understand the situation in Iraq much more clearly than the reports in the U.S. media alone would have allowed.
Take care
Italian is not Italian!! He's an arab muslim pretending to be European.
AN Italian, is a sham and a disgrace. A true traitor to freedom in the ME.
http://
www.thereligionofpeace.co...ult.htm#Attacks
"Behold the Peace of Islam: Picture of the Week"
@ Bridget, 10.22.05 - 7:19 pm.
You wrote: “If the secular Iraqis are indeed in the majority, they will have an opportunity to amend the constitution and modify the more objectionable provisions”.
This is not going to happen. As you might know, now they say that the results of the constitutional referendum will be released not earlier that next Tuesday (i.e., fourteen days after the actual referendum!); I wonder how they’ll try to sell that the ‘NO’ votes didn’t reach the threshold of 2/3 in Niniveh (where the numbers quite simply do not add up).
This delay (together with the Saddamite percentages of 99 % ‘YES’ in some Shiite provinces ruled by the religious parties, and with the fact that Condy Rice was able to know the ‘results’ of the referendum two hours after the vote stopped) shows that the referendum was a COMPLETE FRAUD.
If they were prepared to rig the referendum, just imagine what they are prepared to do to ‘fix’ the next elections! So, no way the secular Iraqi patriots (mind that the Kurdish parties are secular as well, but do not feel Iraqi) will get any proper representation. Nice ‘Freedom & Democracy’!
As for your two choices for Iraqi secularists, in the present situation both have a thing in common, i.e., the use of physical force. The ‘federalist’ Constitution implies very clearly (from what I have read; Zeyad could give us the real interpretation) that the only areas where Islamic laws might be not applied are the Kurdish ones. So, in order to spare themselves from the imposition of religious law, the inhabitants of any prevalently secular area would have to take up arms, and kick back the fundamentalist militias (i.e., by now, the Iraqi ‘Army’ and ‘police’).
And, anyway, there is another point that you seem to miss. In the most unlikely case (there is a famous Sunni shrine right there) that our Zeyad were able to create a ‘Secular Iraqi Republic of Adhamiya’, of course women there would be able to wear a mini-skirt or jeans, and men to be without a beard, without immediately being brought in front of the clerical kangaroo court, OK. But what would happen in all the other entities of such a loose ‘federation’?
You wrote “I don't think it necessarily follows that the country will break up”. Now, if in parts of the country are allowed – and enforced by law - some things that are considered as abhorrent by the other parts, it is obvious that that is not a ‘country’ anymore.
Look the part that the ‘peculiar institution’ (slavery) had in the split that brought your Civil War 1861-65. Freedom, you see, is indivisible.
And this ‘federalist’ & religiously fundamentalist ‘Constitution’ precisely does not guarantee any freedom. It enshrines into law, instead, powers and fiefdoms “controlling [all Iraqis’] life in ways [most Iraqis woul]dn't like”, like in the prevailing situation created by US actions. Fifty or sixty Saddams (but many in clerical garb) instead of a single one.
This is for all the old-timers like Lee C. who remember all the discussion we had around the drowning death of Zeyad's cousin, Zaydoon Fadhil.
Dexter Filkins has a very long and complete story in today's NYTimes.
Zeyad, I'm assuming you've read it already.
If not, that's the link and my condolences once again on the death of your cousin. I remember how torn up you were about it. I'm sorry our soldiers were responsible for the death of such a nice young man as Zaydoon.
*
An Italian. Spoken like a true Nazi..
My dear beloved Global Socialist An Italian, I follow your religion of equality, I do, I am but a humble servant of your autocratic leaders, a meek devotee of the great Eurabian model . I fear the apocalypses global Warming. Your great leaders of a strong central government are a true testament of the power of fascist philosophy. A true testament of our time. An Italian, are brilliant Global Socialist, is it Pol Pot, Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Hussein or what great leader of your glorious religion do you praise allegiance to. Do all the little darlings of fascists hate a deplore liberty as you do? Is federalism such a crime, it only assures independent rights to the province rather than a forced subject of the state. Will this model destroy Iraq or will it destroy the hopes and iron grip of authoritarian rule.. Why An Italian do you fear the will of free men? Why do you cling to the nihilistic religion of the ego?
That was a very worthwhile and sobering read Jeffrey. Highly recommended.
I could paste a dozen different excerpts for special note, but the shortest and most Zeyad-relevant one is this..
Sgt. Carl Ironeyes, the squad's leader, told Marwan and Zaydoon they could go; he gave them as stern a warning as he could manage without knowing any Arabic. The Iraqis got into their truck and drove off.
This happened just a few days after I found this blog. It was tragic then. Reading today how close they actually came to escaping with their lives brought back that same sense of dread and sadness. That article covers a wide range of the human impacts of the war.
Go read it now. I'll even give you the link again...
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/2...ml?
pagewanted=1
Dear Zeyad,
an even better link (one page) is:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/2...?
pagewanted=all
And, Zeyad, you'll see from the article that those foul and cowardly murderers ('American Heroes, indeed) of Zeydoon are still proud of their action.
psyco
The only coward is see is you.
Send our prewritten letter now:
http://www.demaction.org/dia/
org...mpaign_KEY=1385
*********************************
Citizens for Fair Legislation
For Immediate Release
October 20, 2005
********************************
CFL ALERT: OPPOSE THE TORTURE OF DETAINEES IN IRAQ: ASK YOUR
REPRESENTATIVES TO SUPPORT THE MCCAIN AMENDMENT.
TALKING POINTS:
*In a 90-9 vote the U.S. Senate has voted to block torture and
prisoner abuse by the U.S. government. Please take a moment to send
our prewritten letter to your representatives and ask them to support
the McCain Amendment.
*The McCain Amendment prevents the government from telling soldiers to
ignore the Army Field Manual on Intelligence Interrogations and it
reinforces the ban on torture and the use of cruel, inhumane, and
degrading treatment and prevents the abandonment of the Constitution
and the rule of law. Senator McCain's amendment is supported by key
members of the armed forces, including two former Chairmen of the
Joint Chiefs of Staff, General John Shalikashvili and former Secretary
of State Colin Powell.
*In July, Vice President Cheney met with Republican Senators who had
publicly expressed frustration about the administration's failure to
hold senior military officials responsible for the abuse and torture
at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. At that meeting Cheney stated his
opposition to congressional intervention regarding the treatment of
detainees at either Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo. Later the White House
issued a statement stating that President Bush would veto a $442
billion defense bill if representatives continued to attempt to impose
restrictions on what the military can and cannot do to detainees.
*Ask your representatives in the House to hold the government
accountable for its detention policies at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo by
supporting the McCain Amendment and by asking them to make sure it is
in the Defense Department appropriations bill. This amendment
reinforces clear and well-established procedures on the interrogation
of
prisoners and detainees.
===============================
EMAIL AND OR CALL THE WHITE HOUSE
WHITE HOUSE COMMENTS LINE: 202-456-1111
WHITE HOUSE SWITCHBOARD: 202-456-1414
WHITE HOUSE FAX: 202-456-2461
===============================
Citizens for Fair Legislation is a grassroots organization committed
to encouraging a fair domestic and foreign policy with an emphasis on
the US/Arab world.
www.cflweb.org
Dear Zeyad,
I suspect you have read it already, but since the US pro-war commentators kept quoting absurd Iraqi opinion polls, here are the results of the latest one, paid for by the British Ministry of Defence, and then leaked (‘Tony, Tony, get us out of here, we had enough!’) to the Tory paper, «The Telegraph» (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/
news/2005/10/23/wirq23.xml):
“The survey was conducted by an Iraqi university research team that, for security reasons, was not told the data it compiled would be used by coalition forces. It reveals:
• Forty-five per cent of Iraqis believe attacks against British and American troops are justified - rising to 65 per cent in the British-controlled Maysan province;
• 82 per cent are "strongly opposed" to the presence of coalition troops;
• less than one per cent of the population believes coalition forces are responsible for any improvement in security;
• 67 per cent of Iraqis feel less secure because of the occupation;
• 43 per cent of Iraqis believe conditions for peace and stability have worsened;
• 72 per cent do not have confidence in the multi-national forces.
The opinion poll, carried out in August, also debunks claims by both the US and British governments that the general well-being of the average Iraqi is improving in post-Saddam Iraq”.
What do our dear US warmongers have to say?
Maybe the Iraqis see things slightly differently than Americans do, don’t they?
Why don’t you just pack up your troops and go home?
Democrats on the House Judiciary Committee are so pleased with reports that Leakgate prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald is about to indict senior White House officials that they want him to lead an impeachment investigation into whether President Bush lied to Congress about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.
"The CIA leak issue is only the tip of the iceberg," House Judiciary Democrat Jerrold Nadler complains in a message posted to his web site.
In a letter asking the Justice Department to expand the scope of Fitzgerald's investigation, Nadler says: "We now have reason to believe that high crimes may have been committed at the highest level [and] wrongdoing that may have led us to war and imperiled our national security."
If there is evidence that Bush or Cheney authorized aides to deliberately mislead lawmakers, Nadler told Congressional Quarterly: "That would be an impeachable offense.'"
The Manhattan Democrat is asking Acting Deputy Attorney General Robert McCallum to direct Fitzgerald to probe efforts by the White House to discredit critics of the Iraq war like former Ambassador Joe Wilson.
Nadler wants Fitzgerald to determine whether attacks on Wilson were part of a "broader conspiracy knowingly to mislead Congress into authorizing a war."
Even before leaks from Fitzgerald's investigation indicated he planned indictments, Rep. Maurice Hinchey let slip the Democrats' plan to impeach Bush for alleged Iraq war lies.
In quotes picked up by the Ithaca Journal, Hinchey said in August: "My greatest hope is that all of these things will be revealed, they will be revealed in a very direct and legal context, and that in 2006 a Democratic majority will be elected to the House of Representatives, and in February of [2007] impeachment proceedings will begin."
Omar, an Iraqi blogger in Baghdad, explains why the poll quoted by the Italian dung beetle is shite:
http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com...ly-on-
them.html
We ain't leaving until the Iraqi government asks us to, Spaghetti-face, which won't be until your jihadi buddies get their asses well and truly kicked as they did Afghanistan.
ZZ, the Iraq the Model blog is US black propaganda. It has nil credibility.
@ 'ZZ', 10.25.05 - 7:58 am.
Dear mendacious Ape 'ZZ',
you forget that the poll was ordered by the British military in order to know how much safe were their asses; so be quite sure that it is quite reliable (definitely not "shite", my cretin beast).
To quote 'Iraq The Minion' as a reliable source, able to "explain" anything at all, is just comical. The two Iraqi fellows involved in that US psy-op don't seem to be the best judges of Iraqi public opinion (like it was shown last January, when they stood at the elections and got... 1,500 votes out of 8 million!).
"We ain't leaving until the [puppet] Iraqi government asks us to".
Do you truly believe this crap, 'ZZ' animal?
Do you remember Vietnam?
Both you and your local puppet 'government' got thrown out eventually...
And you organised plenty of 'elections' (=electoral frauds) in Vietnam, just like this latest rigged referendum in Iraq: but to no avail (the Iraqis, like the Vietnamese, are not as gullible as the average American).
Today the number of American beasts that got well-culled in Iraq reached 2,000 (plus other 20 thousand repatriated minus some paws).
Are you waiting for their number to reach the 58,000 (like in Vietnam) before conceding defeat?
Do you think most Americans agree with you?
Oh God.
Here I thought I'd take a peek at Zeyad's comments section and who do I find? Italian! Still doing the "Ape" sobriquets too! Can't you think of anything else to say?
Rachel,
How on earth can you believe ITM is US propaganda? We are just not that good!
Italian -- I wasn't talking about vampires. I was kinda inventing íaltóga torthaí for "fruitbats" ... first cousins (I guess) of íaltóga gealaigh - moonbats... as a term of affection for the all the old reliables popping up at the first sign of life on Zeyad's blog.
PeteS,
We're more akin to the spadefoot toad, which estivates for months at a time during dry spells, emerges briefly when it rains, and then goes into another extended period of torpor.
Bridget,
I had to look up "estivates". But on doing some further research I realised you are bang on the money, and I quote:
"the toads can breed several times at the same site"
"When handling spadefoot toads, many people experience strong allergic reactions"
@ PeteS, 10.26.05 - 10:31 am.
“I wasn't talking about vampires”.
Sorry for my mistake, but I was telling you your Irish was getting too difficult for us…
Bridget's allergenic spadefoot toads seem to be a good picture of us posters, anyway...
@ Lynnette in Minnesota, 10.26.05 - 9:48 am.
Dear Beast in Minnesota,
Don’t you think you should have addressed Zeyad’s post instead, and what happened with the referendum?
Before the ‘constitutional referendum’ fraud became all too evident one of those naive American posters, some George, hopefully wrote above: “That is the beauty of Democracy. Yea or nay the people of Iraq determine their future”.
Now all the people of Iraq know for positive that this scam and fraud, this US-imposed ‘Freedom & Democracy’, does not mean that they can in any way “determine their future” through the ballot box.
The results of these grotesque ‘electoral’ scams (voting without knowing the candidates, saying ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ to a document very few were able to read) are arranged in advance by the US Administration and by their uncomfortable allies, the Teheran Ayatollahs; nothing to do with the will of the Iraqis.
BTW, Beast in Minnesota, are you proud of this wonderful sectarian religious Iraqi ‘Constitution’, that puts the Ayatollahs in control? And that takes away the last formal rights of women (the actual ones they had had for the past fifty years have been taken away already as a brilliant result of your glorious ‘liberation’) ?
PS: “How on earth can you believe ITM is US propaganda? We are just not that good!”
That’s precisely why you had to hire two Iraqis to sell it…
Good God. Here's one Americanism I've definitely never come across before:
"On damp summer nights, spadefoots often emerge from their burrows. When rainfall is extensive, their call, a short explosive "wank," like the call of a crow, may be heard".
!!!
Bridget's allergenic spadefoot toads seem to be a good picture of us posters, anyway...
My Lord, O great one, our benevolent Global Socialist.
Please bless thee with thou wisdom of the ego and lust. Teach us free people of America of ‘idol worship’ and the nihilistic philosophical belief in the self. Please free us from the tyranny of free people; please my Lord, free us from the controlling hope of the majority. O wise one. We must destroy these so called patriots of freedom and rein in the era of the lustful social aristocrat who will save us all from the inevitable apocalypse Global Warming. O bless thou our socialistic oligarchy of us American working men. We gladly forfeiture or profits for the schemes of the Global Autocrats. O appeasers of tyrants and terrorists, bless us monkeys of America, with your art and journalism.
I thought this An Italian was smart..
Not only is he a Nazi, he is a simjple minded cookie cutter socialist. I could tell you what he says before he even says it.
Pathetic...
Iraq Starts Flights to Lebanon, Iran and Bulgaria
(Al-Ittihad) The first Iraqi Airlines plane landed in Lebanon's airport on Monday for the first time in 24 years. The airliner is scheduling regular flights to Lebanon on Mondays and Thursdays. Beirut is the fifth Arab capital Iraqi Airlines flies to regularly; the others are Amman, Damascus, Cairo and Dubai. The Iraqi transportation minister, Salam Al-Maliki was on board the first flight that arrived in Beirut. An official source from the ministry of transportation told Al-Ittihad that Iraq will resume its regular flights to a number of friendly countries like Iran, and European countries such as Bulgaria as well as Britain.
(Al-Ittihad is published daily by the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan.)
2
Artifact thieves arrested in Nasiriyah
(Azzaman) Nasiriyah's police arrested men in two networks active in carrying out terrorist acts, killing people, stealing cars and breaking into houses. A source from Dhiqar police headquarters told Azzaman, "A tip off to the police led to the arrest of these criminals and some other suspects. They belong to terrorist networks that carried out the thefts, terrorist acts and break-ins." With the help of multinational forces in the province, Nasiriyah police arrested two people who had seven artifacts from the Sumerian age. Twenty-six others thieves were also charged with the theft and fined.
(London-based Azzaman is issued daily by Saad al-Bazaz.)
2
200 Million Euro Grant from EU to Iraq
(Al-Sabah) Iraq and the European Union discussed ways to assist Iraq in supporting the government and protecting its citizens. They also discussed developing mutual relations in terms of economy, finance and trade. The Iraqi delegation included the ministers of foreign affairs, finance, trade, and the state minister for civil society affairs. After the talks, Iraqi foreign minister Hoshyar Zebari told reporters that the ministry of justice will receive the EU grant for 2006. He also said the EU gave Iraq a 700 million euro grant since the fall of the former Iraqi regime in 2003 and that the grant will expire at the end of this year. He added that the new 200 million grant will be spent next year.
(Al-Sabah is issued daily by the Iraqi Media Network.)
Prisoner Memorial Being Removed in Baghdad
(Azzaman) Baghdad's municipality began removing the prisoners' memorial under the supervision of the de-Baathification commission. The memorial consists of a number of statues for Iraqi prisoners tortured during the Iraq-Iran war. They included some propaganda from the former regime. Nasir al-Sa'di, a member of the national assembly and its media and education commissioner, said, "These claims that Iraqi prisoners were tortured in such a terrible way was a lie. It was fabricated to mount public opinion in favour of the regime's unfair war." The move was part of an initiative to remove remnants of the former regime. According to Kamil al-Zaidi, a member of Baghdad's city council, another memorial will be built at the site honouring those martyred by the former regime's apparatuses. The municipality will keep parts of the prisoners' memorial.
(London-based Azzaman is issued daily by Saad al-Bazaz.)
2
525 Abu Graib Prisoners will be released
(Al-Ittihad) The Iraqi acting minister of human rights Narmin Osman stated that 525 prisoners will be released from the Abu Graib prison for eid. She said the prisoners will be released in two phases next week. The human rights minister also said the released detainees are innocent of the charges levelled against them. She told the Iraqis' news agency on October 25 that efforts are underway to make final decisions for cases of other innocent detainees.
(Al-Ittihad is published daily by the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan.)
Chalabi due in Washington to discuss rebuilding operations in Iraq
(Iraq al-Yom) Iraqi National Conference leader Ahmed al-Chalabi is to visit Washington in November amid speculation that Americans officials consider him a good choice for the prime minister's post in the forthcoming election (to be held on December 15, 2005.) The American treasury spokesman stated that Mr. Chalabi, who is currently deputy prime minister, will meet US treasury secretary John Snow next month to discuss achievements in Iraq's economic redevelopment. Chalabi was considered a likely candidate for Iraq's presidency after the 2003 invasion because he had closer ties to Washington than any other Iraqi politician. The Iraqi national conference had provided intelligence information to the Americans on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, which later led to the invasion of Iraq.
(Iraq al-Yom is a weekly newspaper issued by Isra Shakir.)
The most dangerous terrorist cell discovered in (Babul-alsharqi)
(Al-Mada) The Iraqi interior minister, Baqr Jabr Sulagh, announced authorities discovered of one of the most dangerous terrorist cells in al-Babulsharqi, in central Baghdad. The cell (was believed to have) carried out several explosions and killings in the capital. The minister also said authorities found large amounts of ammunition and several car bombs that were ready to be planted. He said the cell had supervised all terrorist activities in Baghdad through communication facilities in a hideout. He also said some documents were found that showed al-Qaeda and other militia networks entered Iraq in 2000. The documents also revealed a connection between the terrorist groups and the former Iraqi regime, including how the (terrorist organisations) were provided with weapons and explosive materials, and their distribution methods in various Iraqi governorates.
(Al-Mada is issued daily by al-Mada Institution for Media, Culture and Arts.)
Deadline Set for Candidates' Election Applications
(Al-Taakhi) The International Electoral Commission of Iraq announced on October 23, 2005 that "under no circumstances will extensions be given" for applications for candidates' lists in the upcoming elections. The elections are due to be held on December 15, 2005. The commission set October 28, 2005 as the deadline for receiving applications. Commission spokesman Farid Ayar said in a statement that any requests to postpone the deadline would be rejected because it would force the commission to change the date of the elections.
(Al-Taakhi is issued daily by the Kurdistan Democratic Party.)
2
Amr Musa: All Political Parties Will Participate in Talks
(Al-Iraq al-Yoom) Iraqi foreign minister Hoshiar Zebari said he told a visiting Arab League delegation, led by secretary-general Amr Musa, that "they will see a new Iraq that is different from the scenes of terror covered by the mass media." He said the Iraqi government supports the Arab League initiative (to hold an Iraqi accord conference) and that it needs the support of Arab countries. Musa said after talks in Baghdad, there is a consensus (to hold the conference.) Musa has met with Kurdish, Sunni and Shia leaders in his visit to Iraq. He also said that he agreed with the (foreign) minister on national consensus issues and said a preparatory committee will be set up soon for the conference.
(Al-Iraq al-Yoom is a weekly newspaper issued by Isra Shakir.)
Barzani begins trip to the US and Britain
(Asharq al-Awsat) Kurdistan region president Massud Barzani on Sunday travelled to the United States, where he will hold talks with US president George W. Bush concerning the situation in Kurdistan and the rest of Iraq. He is also scheduled to meet with the British prime minister, Tony Blair, in London. Barzani told reporters at Erbil airport, "The purpose of our visit to Washington is to meet the US president George W. Bush and members of congress." He said he hoped the visit would be useful. Barzani emphasized that this would be the first time that Kurdish (leadership) is formally received in the United States. After the visiting the United States, Barzan will travel to Britain to meet with Blair in London for talks on the Iraqi situation.
(London-based Asharq al-Awsat, a pro-Saudi independent paper, is issued daily.)
Iraqis to take over security in all governorates within a few months
(Al-Ittihad) General Donald Alston, spokesman for the multi-national forces in Iraq, said Iraqi forces will take over security in several Iraqi cities shortly. Iraqi forces will assume control of security in all Iraqi governorates in the next few months. During a press conference at the convention centre in Baghdad, Alston said Najaf and Karbala are now being protected by local forces, but Iraqi forces have not yet assumed sole responsibility for security in the cities. US forces are still stationed outside of both cities, which are located south of Baghdad. Military bases are being turned over to Iraqi forces after they proved capable in protecting security and performed well.
(Al-Ittihad is published daily by the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan.)
UP UP UP UP
NO TO THE YANKEE-IRANIAN TOILET CONSTITUTION.
"Dear Beast in Minnesota,"
Oh, you sweet talker you. Be still my heart,*sigh*, it feels just like old times.
"Don’t you think you should have addressed Zeyad’s post"
Ahem, actually I did. It's earlier in this comments section.
"BTW, Beast in Minnesota, are you proud of this wonderful sectarian religious Iraqi ‘Constitution’, that puts the Ayatollahs in control?"
Dear, I would have voted "no" like Zeyad if I lived in Iraq. But since I would have lost I would be out there working my a** off within the legal system to change the things I dislike about it. That means electing people that represent my thinking in the next elections.
Buffalo Slayer,
Thanks for the news clips. One step at a time.
@ Lynnette in Minnesota, 10.27.05 - 3:28 pm.
“ ‘Don’t you think you should have addressed Zeyad’s post’
‘Ahem, actually I did. It's earlier in this comments section’ ”.
If that (Lynnette in Minnesota, 10.15.05 - 5:11 pm) was a ‘comment’ addressing anything at all, then you’re being a bit over-generous with yourself.
“Dear, I would have voted ‘no’ like Zeyad if I lived in Iraq. But since I would have lost I would be out there working my a** off within the legal system to change the things I dislike about it. That means electing people that represent my thinking in the next elections”.
Dear Minnesotan Animal,
It seems you completely miss the point.
The constitutional referendum results were completely rigged, which means that the referendum was a FRAUD.
So, why should Zeyad be trying “electing people that represent [his] thinking in the next elections”, since it is quite obvious that the results of the next elections will be rigged (and a fraud) as well?
Of what use would it be?
Is that (elections ‘fixed’ beforehand) the way ‘Democracy’ works?
Is that the new US-provided Iraqi “legal system”?
The ‘constitutional referendum’ has shown beyond doubt that for any Iraqi to “be out there working [one’s] a** off within the legal system to change the things [one] dislike[s] about it” would be a fool’s errand: NO way at all to change things “within a legal system” that, like the referendum fraud has shown, does not exist!
Interesting confessions here:
http://grouphug.us/search?q=iraq
I sniff an anonymous Bruno-like Diablo Dog, posing as a romantic.
Good Morning Faithful.....
sNIFFER,
quack quack????
quack quack quack
Zeyad, I am so glad to see you posted again and had the opportunity to vote. I hope you are well and that you will continue to post and give us your insights. I continue to pray for Iraq and an end to the mayhem and suffering of the innocents.
Zeyad, welcome back! Looking forward to hearing more from you.
Zeyad,
Yes, the chance to vote does empower you. I hear that though the Constitution was approved, they have purposely left out some portions so that all can have more imput into what the final version of the Constitution will be. So no matter what your reasons for voting "No"...the good thing is that it is not locked into finality in regards to the wording and the final version. Maybe you could explain what type of Constitution you would have approved, so that many in Iraq who read your blog might see some of what you see and start to think along your lines. So Post away...you really do have a wide audience.
I am just glad that it did go through and now the political process can start so that you guys can rework it so that even more can support it. It took our forefathers 10 years to get to our current form of a Constitution. Hopefully, your road to the final version won't be so long. Good to hear your "voice" again.
sNIFFER, you think it's the same one?
You fucking Yankee ladyboys are responsible for all this mess. Saddam Hussein, despite all his faults, kept the country together and stood up to the Iranian filth.
Now, you've just fucked up big time, the Mullahs are gonna take over and you will soon have to deal with both the Ayatollahs of Iran and their brethren in Iraq.
NO to Yankee filth, No to Persian scum
Welcome back! Great to hear your voice. I would have voted no too if I had the chance.
Zeyad,
I heard the exodus of educated Iraqis has been really massive in the last few months, even in areas supposed to be quiet like Basrah. Is it true? I'd like to hear from you about that if possible.
Thanks
Zeyad,
I am glad you are back. I had missed your comments, and had thought the religious nuts had hurt you.
Did you vote against because of the Sharia paragraph? Because of the federalism? Something else?
Please post again.
You're a wuss Zeyad...Grow a back bone!
Fuck off sucka! I am glad Zyad is realising now that the Yanks are as bad as the Wahhabi and Ayatollahi Iranian Islamicky vermin. The sooner these two set of murdering, blood-sucking cretins finish off each other, the better.
To hell with the Irani-Yank goblins.
"If that (Lynnette in Minnesota, 10.15.05 - 5:11 pm) was a ‘comment’ addressing anything at all, then you’re being a bit over-generous with yourself."
I thought it's brevity was commensurate with Zeyads. I don't like to run off at the fingers like some people.
"The constitutional referendum results were completely rigged,"
Baloney. What is your proof, Italian? Before you can overturn an election you at least need some substantiated proof of massive fraud. Do you really believe all the observers were a party to that?
Were the elections perfect? Probably not. But they were a start. Democracy is not static. I still think giving it a try, rather then changing governments by the gun is a better option. As someone said earlier in this section, the US didn't develop it's constitution overnite.
Monkey Bush will hand the reins of power to the Ayatollahs and their militias to finish off what the ladyboy Marines started (He needs to get them home as soon as possible. Apparently, they are missing mummy). That is: turn this country into an Ayatollah-worshipping heard of sheep.
Judging by the latest stand-off between the Wahhabis and Muqty's Mahdy sheep, the likes of Zarqawi can have a field day with these "sitting ducks" (20-0, was it?). No easy way out for the Yanks, no way whatsoever for your average Mohammed (Allahouma illa al mahdjar).
p.s. How do I insert Arabic writing?
You see the Yanks talking about a "way out" for them and their granny-murdering ladyboys in Iraq.
They cam in, bombed the "rag heads", abused the "rag heads", stole the "rag heads" money and oil, invited wahhabis to participate in their "kill the rag head" game"...
...
...
and now they are talking about a way out for "them".
This is Yank democracy!
Sunni MO,
You must be bushlied in disquise. Such nonsense. Such a spin of pure concoction. Such horseshit (that is a texan saying but oh so applicable here).
Most of zyead's american commentors here have the utmost respect for him and for his fellow countrymen...incouding Sunni's who chose to put down their weapons and seek unity through the political arena. We americans are one huge melting pot. There is an article of startling truth in a recent NY times paper (startling because there is usually so much nonsense in that paper). We humans can now have our DNA mapped to see what ethical or racial backgrounds we come from. The results can startle many. For what our grandfathers and great grandfathers have told us is not the whole picture and we often find that there are strands of other races in our veins that we knew nothing about.
Mankind is a curious creature. When Pride gets in the way of rationality, we do bristle at anyone who seems too different than ourselves. But when we can put the pride down and really look at our fellow human being...we begin to see ourselves as if in a mirror. We are not all that different.
You spout a lot of nonsense about who we americans are. Pure cow pies. But take a look at yourself and then at the Shites and then the Kurds. Do you really think you are all that different...even when it comes to looking at your DNA?
If the bible is the ultimate word in truth (and I, as a Christian, think that there are major truths in it amidst many a story and parable and icon and similie)...then we are all actually mesopotamians. And as in the time of babylon, we were scattered by God and given different tongues so that we would be confused and at each other's throats so that we could not strive to become like Gods. You may seek to be your own God. Too much Pride. Not me. I strive to find that common ground with Zeyad and Alaa and Omar and Muhammed and with others that I have gotten to know. You can spout off with all of the hate and lies you want to. But God is telling me that you too were once a child and that you need to lighten up and seek more of the common ground with the other peoples of your country. Enough of the nonsense about what you think Bush was and is about. He is a Christian like myself and one of the most ecuminical of all christian Presidents. He seeks real democracy for you guys. But as to if you can achieve that? Well, that is up to you and you alone. We can lead you to water. But only you can drink of it. Die of religious furvor and self pride all you want to. Or drink of cooperation and a shared future for your great nation. It is solely up to you.
Nothing like digressing on the subject matter, eh Randy boy?
But please don't let the facts sway you from your God (Jay-Zus, Dubya, The Chief in Command) given right to
mumble whatever misguided half truth you'd like to pass off as intelligible today.
Let me share some "truths" with the rest of your follow half-breed redneck Yank vermin:
1- You invaded.
2- You killed and maimed.
3- You destroyed everything that was once standing.
4- You will soon leave after having empowered the Iranian-loving filth.
"Sand niggers"/ "rag heads" obviously aren't humans by Yank standards. Rest assured that the sand nigger feels that if the rest of the Yank vermin were rubbed of the face of the plannet, then the
world would be a better place.
Now to the Iranian-Yank vermin!
What about:
2.1 - You removed the merciless tyrant Saddam, the scourge of Iraq.
?
What about
2.2 The merciless tyrant Saddam, scourge of Iraq, was about to topple himself through ineffectuality just like certain other un-named vermin are about to.
or
2.3 The merciless tyrant Saddam, scourge of Iraq, was very nearly toppled by his own disgruntled people when Iraqis almost got wind he didn't have any WMDs or anything else much left to threaten civilians with bar the removal of body parts which everyone was getting used to if inconvenienced by and less afraid of.
An insurgency takes on the entire US army, gosh golly gee it can't have taken a budding resistance under Saddam too much longer to figure out that they might have been able to take on their own practically un-armed oppressors.
What can you frighten the people with when having scared them half to death with every other trick they begin developing immunity to fear? The US aren't fighting anti-Americanism in Iraq, they are fighting people who've had it up to the ears with being bossed about for several decades.
So, what about:
2.4 In his attempt to convince Iraqis that he did have WMDs or something else to threaten civilians with, he managed to actually convince Western intelligence and/or Iranian stooges, leading to his downfall and the current sad state of his former fiefdom.
I was concerned about you since you had not posted in a long time. I am happy to see you are still there. Hope all is well. Glad you voted.
How about:
2.5 Somebody "WMD" Bush's ass with a long-range projectile hardened with depleted uranium.... from Niger?
Tick tock tick tock
The clock is ticking on the Vermin Republic of Iran & the United Scum of America...
Haha, "Sunni" Mo my ass.
@ Lynnette in Minnesota (10.31.05 - 10:31 am) & @ All Other US Warmongers making themselves ridiculous by blathering about the ‘Democwacy’ they brought to Ey-rak.
“‘The constitutional referendum results were completely rigged’. Baloney. What is your proof, Italian? Before you can overturn an election you at least need some substantiated proof of massive fraud”.
Dear Minnesotan Critter, “substantiated proof of massive fraud” is under the eyes of anybody having even half a brain. Here are the three outstanding elements of proof of the total fraud that the referendum was:
1) Let’s see the referendum “results” as announced by the “Independent [LOL!] Electoral Commission of Iraq” or IECI, starting from the 12 provinces completely controlled by the Shiite sectarian militias and by the Kurdish peshmerga:
ARBIL 99.36 % YES
BABIL 94.58 % YES
BASRA 96.02 % YES
DEHOK 96.96 % YES
KARBALA 96.58 % YES
MEYSAN 97.79 % YES
MUTHANNA 98.65 % YES
NAJAF 95.82 % YES
QADISSIYA 96.74 % YES
SULAIMANIYA 98.96 % YES
THIQAR 97.15 % YES
WASIT 95.70 % YES
Now, dear Lynnette, don’t such percentages look to you a wee bit not just strange, but impossible?
Especially in the case of Basra, where there are some thirty percent of educated, secular people?
It’s the same sort of percentages the regimes of the Soviet Block and, in Iraq, Saddam Hussein himself, used to get at THEIR referenda; which were, precisely, regarded as TOTAL FRAUDS by the rest of the world…
Let’s see the other 6 provinces (in two of them, Anbar and Salahedeen, Shiite militiamen and peshmerga are definitely not welcome; Baghdad is a leopard skin; in the other three the Kurdish peshmerga do control some parts, but not the whole province):
ANBAR 96.96 % NO
BAGHDAD 77.70 % YES
DIYALA 51.27 % YES
KIRKUK 62.91 % YES
SALAHEDEEN 81.75 % NO
NINEVAH 55.01 % NO
Of course in Anbar, where the ‘insurgency’ (i.e. patriotic resistance) is almost in control, some vote rigging may have been operated in favour of the NO (whence the Saddamite proportion of the NO vote, like the Saddamite proportion of the YES vote in the 12 provinces controlled by the pro-Government militias). But in Ninevah (Mosul), the third NO province that everybody expected would have dumped the ‘Constitution’ with a two/thirds NO, a check with the known demography and with the results of the January elections shows that the numbers for a 44.9 % YES vote just were not there…
(continued…)
(…continued)
2) Precisely in Ninevah there are plenty of confirmed reports that, especially in Mosul city and in Turkmen areas, gangs of peshmerga made the original ballot boxes ‘vanish’, substituting them with ‘their own’… and that they saw to it, like last January, that most Chaldeo-Assyrian villages could not vote.
3) Your cobra Condy Rice (plenty of different critters in you zoo!) declared that the YES vote had carried the day, and that the ‘Constitution’ had passed the referendum, less than TWO HOURS after the closing of the polling booths (and the counting took instead 14 DAYS!). How could she know? She couldn’t, unless, precisely, the referendum result was ‘preordained’…
“Do you really believe all the observers were a party to that?”.
Who were the “observers”? The members of the Iraqi political parties backing the occupation. There was, as far as we know, only ONE ‘international observer’, a woman from the UN staying in the ‘Green Zone’ (and she gave a rap on the tail of your cobra Condy for her untimely and all too transparent statement…).
So you say that such a referendum was “a start. Democracy is not static”? Now, dear Critter in Minnesota, you are quite cheeky in spewing this piece of baloney…
Let’s see if you have the courage to admit the facts, or if you instead go and hide your snout in shame in your woods and forests…
EYETIE,,...you are getting trampled by history happeneing right between your eyes.
It's STILL like this...better Saddam? or Better this vote? Or is it just Orwell's quote rattling around in that brain.."If america can be insulted, it must be insulted"
It was clear to him at the moment his 'progressive' friends looked for justification for Stalin squishing countries, and it is true of critical progressives today.
SO please go on whining. Iraq had their vote, plenty voted no and had all kinds of reason for doing so, but enough voted yes.
Democracy is a messy business and we're just a few years in. It took the USA from 1781 to 1789 with the useless articles of confederation.
America haters are two bits a dozen. Whining about america acting rather than being euro-ditherers, always excusing inaction by never having a perfect solution has displayed for all history how irrelevant a continent which is so decadent it doesn;t even had the moral fortitude to reach replacement level reproduction and is circling the drain. I never thought I would live to see the day of such stark difference making it plain that europe is SPENT.
Iraq is enroute to having it's people decide what's going to be. Next up a vote for reps. There will be problems, there will be setbacks. That's life in an open society. No doubt that will have you whining even louder with conjured up criticisms. If you look over the rail on that deck you're so busy with the deckchairs, on, you will see this:
TITANIC
Adios muchacho
BTW, zeyad...you created a frankenstein, just let us know you're alive once in a while if you just don't feel like posting..I thought you were dead and The Religious Policeman hauled off.
Stay safe. Stay loud
An Italian,
So good to hear your anti american diatribe again. As a fellow Catholic, I am inclined to totally disagreee with you. Ninevah? Mosul? Go read www.Michaelyon.blogspot.com and read the real truth. He was there. You weren't. You continue to spout lies about what is going on over there as if lying about evil stuff will make it become good stuff. The mindless ones who stream into Iraq to blow themselves up and kill innocent women and children because they are from a rival islamic sect are NOT the good guys. They are filled with hatred. HATRED. Do you remember any of your catecism? Hate comes from Satan. Love comes from God. They have no love...only hatred. It is their mantra. They say we are the Satan. What a laugh.
Hatred is Satan's mantra. To bring us ever closer to his goal of getting revelation to come into play. He tried the Nazi's. Then the communists. And now the Islamofascists. There is a definite link between this hatred and the Third Reich. Google "Hitler's Mufti" and see who was closely linked to Nazi Germany and then who exported the hatred for the jew back into Palestine to rekindle old death rivalries. And his nephew...Arafat...continued it until his recent demise. And now the islamofascists of Zarqawi continue the fight for "insanity" (to kill others with no real plan for the future) and to bring hell into view for a worldwide government. I know you did not support the Nazis in WWII. So why now? Why do you chose to put the blinders on and act as if this islamofascist way is the right way? Why? Plenty of hate there to dispell that notion.
Me? I want to stay free and I want my new Iraqi friends to also experience that peace...for their children as well. Too bad you don't get who the bad guys really are.
Your old sparing partner...Randy G.
We guess that Zeyad has been threatened by the terrorists to stop writing for his blog. This message of his of voting against is to placate those terrorizing him.
This post might be deleted or there might be a rejoinder. But we understand Zeyad, after all you have to survive for the sake of your family.
Anyway thanks for all the good work in the past.
Bye
Webmasters
http://www.waronjihad.org
waronjihad,
You are a seditious fraud. Stop inciting or he will never come back ever. More's the pity. This is what happens when people have to proove how dangerous it is in real life to blog through war - they go on strike.
Do you remember any of your catec[h]ism?
Randy G ... it's more basic that that. If George Bush was Satan incarnate and Condy Rice was the Beast of revelations, revelling in the deaths of U.S. soldiers would still be unconscionable for any Catholic.
Totally uncalled for our kid. Have they taught you no manners at school?
Oh well, care in the community has a long way to go :-(
Ahma-Dick-Najad, Dubya: Ceux qui se ressemblent, s'assemblent.
@ Zeyad (Re: ‘waronjihad’, 11.07.05 - 6:15 am).
Dear Zeyad,
I see that these three criminal ‘Webmasters’, who - as anybody can see - run a site committed to the incitement and spreading of sectarian and national hatred, now try – not too subtly - to blackmail and threaten you in your own blog (“We guess that Zeyad has been threatened by the terrorists to stop writing for his blog. This message of his of voting against is to placate those terrorizing him”).
Let’s see if any of your US warmongering commentators has the decency of condemning these cowardly vermin (unfortunately everybody knows, by now, that ‘US warmonger’, and ‘decency, honour, truth’, are terms that are mutually incompatible).
Do consider if it isn’t by now the time to close your comment pages, like other Iraqi bloggers (A Citizen Of Mosul and Truth About Iraqis being the last two) have done. You gave all the Americans (and all other non-Iraqi readers) who honestly wanted to understand more about Iraq the chance to do that. Most did.
But some did not; as in the sentence by Jonathan Swift you put as a preface to your blog, "It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of what he was never reasoned into".
@ PeteS, 11.02.05 - 6:46 pm.
Dear Pete, what about:
2.1 - You removed the merciless tyrant Saddam, the scourge of Iraq, and put in his place fifty other tyrants even more merciless than he was. ?
It would fit nicely with the four other points (that nobody can deny) ‘Sunni MO’ made:
1- The US invaded.
2- They killed and maimed.
3- They destroyed everything that was once standing.
4- They will soon leave after having empowered the Iranian-loving filth.
Apart from that, if I were to free you from your toothache, but giving you terminal cancer in exchange, would you be happy and grateful?
So you see that what you wrote doesn’t make much sense to most Iraqi readers.
@ ‘epaminondas’, 11.06.05 - 9:15 pm & - 9:19 pm.
“better Saddam? or better this vote? Iraq had their vote, plenty voted no and had all kinds of reason for doing so, but enough voted yes. Democracy is a messy business and we're just a few years in. Iraq is en route to having it’s people decide what's going to be. Next up a vote for reps. There will be problems, there will be setbacks. That's life in an open society”.
Oh clever ‘epaminondas’, “enough voted yes”? Well, if you believe it, I just happen to have a stock of Saddam’s WMDs, and I could sell them to you!
Dear fool, next December the tactical allies of the US (but real allies of Iran), the Shiite sectarian religious parties (the SCIRI/Badr, the Sadrists, the two different Dawa parties and 12 other parties in the United Iraqi Alliance, plus the Fahdila party with its own list) will get more than 50 percent at the Iraqi ‘elections’, and will establish their Iranian-style Islamic Republic of Iraq. An “open society” indeed, you fool!
And then you have the incredible cheek of telling Zeyad: “Zeyad... you created a Frankenstein” !
Oh, yeah, it is all the fault of them Eyrakians! The US invasion and occupation has nooooooothing to do with such a brilliant result!
BTW, you wrote as well: “It took the USA from 1781 to 1789 with the useless articles of confederation”.
And as a result you had one of the most bloody civil wars in history. Or you just forgot it (1861-65), my Ahmehwican genius?
“[Europe,] a continent which is so decadent it doesn’t even had the moral fortitude to reach replacement level reproduction”.
Oh my, where did I hear this precise sentence already… Oh yes, stupid of me: it was Hitler and Mussolini and their propaganda. They kept obsessively repeating it (against France and England, then) in the decade leading to WW2.
And then, when we say that you US warmongers are the present-day Nazis and Fascists (New World Order, indeed!), you have the incredible brazen face of complaining!
“Euro-ditherers, always excusing inaction by never having a perfect solution”.
Better to be ‘inactive’ than to commit, without a reason, abominable crimes and mass murders like the US do, leaving in their wake – like in Iraq – an atrocious mess.
And, BTW, with hurricane Katrina we Europeans (and the Iraqis, and everybody else in the world) have clearly seen what the United States of America really are: a Fourth World rogue State, that couldn’t care less for its own citizens (and such beasts want to rule the world, LOL!).
Dear ‘epaminondas’, to adopt the name of a Greek military leader from the 4th century BC is quite improper on your part, since the Greeks (both ancient and modern) always had, differently from you, only one pair of hands…
@ Randy G, 11.07.05 - 12:33 am.
Oh poor Randy, I see that these last few months haven’t made you any cleverer, or less gullible and confused.
“Ninevah? Mosul? Go read www.Michaelyon.blogspot.com and read the real truth”.
Oh yeah! A paid, embedded propaganda agent would be “the real truth” in your book? Goebbels, Zdanov & Saddam’s Minister of Information were the ‘real truth’ as well, then!
“You continue to spout lies about what is going on over there”.
Poor Randy, I do hope Zeyad and the Iraqi readers will be able to forgive you in their hearts, knowing only too well that you are more than a bit simpleminded…
“The mindless ones who stream into Iraq to blow themselves up and kill innocent women and children because they are from a rival Islamic sect are NOT the good guys”.
My foolish friend, where and when did I ever say that they are the “good guys” ?
As everybody (apart from the American public) knows, this brand of Wahabi fanaticism comes from the greatest Arabic ally of the US, Saudi Arabia; and as a terror network (Bin Laden & Co.) it was organised and trained by your CIA, starting from the late Seventies. They are a danger only in some parts of the Islamic world; everywhere else they are just a minor problem the police and the intelligence services can easily cope with. They did not exist in Iraq before the brainless US invasion and occupation. The “mindless ones” blowing themselves up in Iraq for the “Islamo-Fascists of Zarqawi” are deluded youngsters, mainly from Saudi Arabia; but one can suspect that those leading them kept their old, friendly links with the US…
The Iraqi patriotic resistance, that targets the Americans (2,050 of them stiffed, 20,000 severely wounded up to now) and their puppets, has very little to do with those criminal loonies.
And there are indeed some ‘Islamo-Fascists’ threatening all secular and progressive Iraqis like Zeyad, ‘Islamo-Fascists’ who are indeed on the verge of ruling Iraq (after the December next – rigged – ‘elections’), and of transforming it into an Islamic Republic, Teheran-style. Oh, do tell me, Randy dear, who did put them in control?
It was the United States of America with their glorious invasion and occupation, wasn’t it?
Be sure that if the threat of these ‘Islamo-Fascists’ tactically allied to the US occupation were not there, Zeyad would be able to “Post away...”, as you wrote (Randy G, 10.28.05 - 10:47 pm).
(continued…)
(…continued)
“As a fellow Catholic”, I have to tell you that, precisely, “Hatred is satan's mantra. He tried the Nazis. Then the communists. And now the” American Neo-Cons, who crazily “kill others with no real plan for the future”, as your Iraqi adventure has shown even to the blind, wanting to enslave the world, bringing, precisely, “hell into view for a worldwide government”. They are the present day Nazis, and a danger to everybody.
“Why do you chose to put the blinders on and act as if this islamofascist way is the right way?”.
Are you hallucinating, my friend?
Dear ‘Catholic’ friend, “Too bad you don't get who the bad guys really are”. Possibly, like PeteS remarked about some spadefoot toads, when you see your Ape in Chief, who “is a Christian like [yourself]self” (LOL! Randy G, 11.01.05 - 2:21 pm), you cannot refrain from having immediately an “explosive wank” (PeteS, 10.26.05 - 6:57 pm) …
But do remember: lying about evil stuff (even out of ignorance and gullibility) “won’t make it become good stuff”.
@ PeteS, 11.07.05 - 12:51 pm.
“‘Do you remember any of your catec[h]ism?’ Randy G ... it's more basic that that. If George Bush was satan incarnate and Condy Rice was the Beast of revelations [well, ‘of Revelation’], revelling in the deaths of U.S. soldiers would still be unconscionable for any Catholic”.
Dear Pete (or should I call you ‘Your Sanctity’, or ‘Holy Father’, instead?), maybe I’m mistaken, but I do not remember you, for the best part of these past two years, coming out so strongly against those many who were gloating and “revelling in the deaths of” Iraqis, day after day, in these very comments pages…
And they weren’t just revelling in the deaths of ‘insurgents’ (who, for the most part, were anyway people defending their country against unjust and arrogant invaders, nothing to do with Zarqawi the Ghost), but in the deaths of Iraqi civilians, women and children as well (‘It’s a war, shit happens’, when not ‘They deserve all they get’, ‘Nuke’em’).
And, BTW, most US soldiers that die in Iraq are not ‘innocent’ at all; they are not compelled to go to Iraq by a lying Administration, like those of Vietnam. Most of them are warmongering fanatics who chose to be there and to murder people who had never done them any harm. They die? So what? Good riddance! (and it is the only way to make the American public come to their senses and impose the end of the criminal venture, by the way).
Did you agree with the (mainly) US posters doing the above, Pete? Or a bit of double standard on your part?
If not, there are anyway the sins of omission, you know (‘what I failed to do’…). Wasn’t your omission “still unconscionable for any Catholic” ?
Maybe, Pete, before preaching to others you should do a bit of housecleaning…
An Irish Prayer
May those that love us, love us;
And those that don't love us,
May God turn their hearts;
And if he doesn't turn their hearts;
May he turn their ankles
So we'll know them by their limping
Need a little ice for your ankle, Italian?
But to answer your post to me.
Do you honestly believe that the corruption and simple cheating that was learned under Saddam can be overcome in one election, or two, or three? Was there fraud? Probably. But was there enough to overturn an election? That is my question. The governate that seems critical is Ninevah. It was the swing vote.
"the third NO province that everybody expected would have dumped the ‘Constitution’ with a two/thirds NO,"
Indeed, and just WHO is everyone?
"Of course in Anbar, where the ‘insurgency’ (i.e. patriotic resistance)"
Shall we talk about your "patriotic resistance"? What exactly is their vision for Iraq after they remove the "foreign invaders" from Iraqi soil? What is their plan to pay off the huge debt owed by Iraq from Saddams day? How are they going to deal with potentially hostile neighbors? What kind of government do they plan on setting up and how?
"Democracy is not static”? Now, dear Critter in Minnesota, you are quite cheeky in spewing this piece of baloney…"
We are all changing all the time, Italian. What might have been acceptable behaviour 100, 50, 10 years ago may not be acceptable now. As you say we fought a civil war. A bloody long civil war that to this day people still feel the affects of. But it was fought so people in our country could be free.
"Most of them are warmongering fanatics who chose to be there and to murder people who had never done them any harm."
Most of them are kids doing their jobs. Most of them have families they miss. Most of them are doing those jobs and missing those families because they are trying to give the people of Iraq a chance to live in that freedom that we have fought so hard for and died for.
Unlike some people who only know how to sit back and criticize. Those who can, do, those who can't....?
Apart from that, if I were to free you from your toothache, but giving you terminal cancer in exchange, would you be happy and grateful? So you see that what you wrote doesn’t make much sense to most Iraqi readers.
I was just filling in a bit of the history that Sunni MO seemed to have rather one-sidedly forgotten about. It wasn't a comment on what Iraqis should or shouldn't be grateful about.
... the Beast of revelations [well, ‘of Revelation’]
You are right, of course. I stand corrected.
Dear Pete (or should I call you ‘Your Sanctity’, or ‘Holy Father’, instead?)
Well, you're the one with the expert bible knowledge.
maybe I’m mistaken, but I do not remember you, for the best part of these past two years, coming out so strongly against those many who were gloating and revelling in the deaths of Iraqis, day after day, in these very comments pages
Yes, you are mistaken. Firstly, I did comment on numerous occasions about such language. (Fairly hypocritically, I'll admit, given some of the language I used myself).
Secondly, some of the people who talked about "turning the middle east into glass" etc. were fools, no more to be reasoned with than the local village idiot. Others were just temporarily hot under the collar. You'll be pleased to hear that I don't reckon you're the village idiot (which even Lee C. agrees with judging by earlier comments). However, two years is a bit long for "temporary hot-under-the-collarness". So I don't place you in either of those categories. Tell me if I'm wrong.
Thirdly, there wouldn't be much point in citing the Catechism of the Catholic Church to most people here, now would there? Or at least, I have no way of knowing whether there would be, other than for myself, Randy G., and you. You may remember I suggested to Randy G., that his apparent religious providentialism as applied to the U.S.A. might not be compatible?
Fourthly ... am I really coming out strongly? Randy G. brought up the catechism. I merely added the obvious. Maybe I'm overreacting. Or maybe (just a suggestion) you're underestimating how immoderate your language comes across. I'll admit that I have a good old laugh from time to time at some of the "four-handed beast" stuff. But then a) I'm not American, b) I appreciate zany humour, c) I give you the benefit of the doubt that you are being mischievously humourous rather than blatantly hate-filled. Part c) gets a bit harder to believe you start sounding happy that people (anyone) are getting killed.
most US soldiers that die in Iraq are not ‘innocent’ at all; ... Most of them are warmongering fanatics who chose to be there and to murder people who had never done them any harm. They die? So what? Good riddance!
That's complete balderdash. But even if it wasn't, what difference does it make to the argument? What distinction are you making between yourself, who is happy to see "vengeance" wreaked on U.S. troops, and, let's say, an American who wants to lash out at anything that moves in the middle east because of 9/11? Which bit of your Catholic morality are you drawing on there?
Did you agree with the (mainly) US posters doing the above, Pete? Or a bit of double standard on your part? If not, there are anyway the sins of omission... Wasn’t your omission still unconscionable for any Catholic?
Are you really asking why I wasn't utterly opposed to the war in Iraq, as you are? I've been trying all along to understand how Catholic moral teaching should be applied to the situation. I'd be the first to admit I'm not sure of the answer. I certainly don't row in easily behind prominent American Catholics like Neuhaus, Novak, and Weigel. I also don't fall for European pacifism parading as Christianity when it suits it. I'd be happy to listen to any pointers you have. In the meantime, are you asking me not to point out the obvious (which to be honest shouldn't need a Catholic catechism) -- that people getting killed in a war is an evil no matter who kets killed or does the killing?
Maybe, Pete, before preaching to others you should do a bit of housecleaning
And maybe even with a whole forest of logs in my own eye I'll refuse to get down off the soap box on this one.
An Italian,
Yes...so good to hear your diatribe of hatred for Bush and his administration again. But that is all it is. Hatred. Not well founded nor even well rooted. Slander is what you use towards someone you don't understand or know. There were great evil forces in the time of our parents and there are today. But again...you get the good guys and the bad guys mixed up. And then you go and act as if Zeyad and the other Iraqi bloggers are agreeing with you. So I am not worried about being the one who is halucinating...you are doing a fine job at that.
Remember the post from our Iraqi hosts where they said that Saddam himself was THE Weapon of Mass Distruction? I guess you missed that one. Or chose to ignore it. We came to remove him and we did. And then the foreign terrorists and the displaced Sunni Baathists began their warfare to both drive us out of Iraq and to put the shia back in their place (actually, if you read Zarqawi's letter, to kill them). But lo and behold...the US is staying till we make sure the new government is up and stablized. And the Shia are taking their rightful place as the majority of Iraqi citizens and the ones who...by the vote... can best affect their own future and the future of the new Iraqi government. And that is reality. You can go and paint a picture of puppets and opressors but there are just too many who read these blogs who know the truth to ever think that even some will buy into your concoctions and outright lies. I am a Christian first...then a Catholic. Bush is a Christian first...and then a Methodist. You say you are a Catholic...but you talk like a lying terrorist yourself...same language as the terrorists...same dillusional concept of what is going down in Iraq and what is being built up in Iraq. You go on about killers being our soldiers. Sorry...they are of the same caibler and fiber as the ones who landed in Italy and saved your parents asses. You just have too much pride to admit that what was America still is America. We were never Imperialists and never will be. That is one stupid commentary that we usually expect to read from the evil enemy. We have never taken over another country and we are not about to now. We did not come to take over Iraq and when we leave, that will be clear to all. But we did come to drain the swamps of teachings of hatred towards us and towards the Israelies and towards any who value freedom. We came to put an end to the brainwashing of the young to turn them into mindless human bombs who hate because they were fed on hate. And we came to plant the seed of freedom in Iraq and Afghanistan and so we have. And you can rail all you want to... but you, my fellow Catholic, will never be able to stop it. For it has a power all it's own...and once it begins to take root...nothing on earth can stop it.
Satan does try and affect the outcome of what is going on in Iraq. But not from the vantage point of through our President's eyes. For he (Bush), like me, reveres Jesus Christ and not the devil (whose name means slander). And all your rantings that are but slanderous lies just go to prove that you yourself have let hatred come into your heart and thus are being affected by hatred and by the devil himself. I think I will have to get Pope Benedict XVI to send over one of his special priests and have him practice an exorcism on your body so we can rid you of your satan's hatred towards fellow Christians. You just don't get it (who is Good and who is Evil). and you think I am the one who is naive? LOL. May the Lord shed some real discernment down upon your heart. Have a nice day, El Italiano.
Pete S,
Maybe what you are missing is that God never said "Thou shall not kill"...what he really said was "Thou shall not murder (an innocent person)". God had no problem with the killings when it was necessary for Him to protect his chosen people. When the Israelis were led back into their land (after 40 years in the desert) that He was giving them He told them to kill all living creatures within as they did take each city. That may sound horrible. But the stench of the sins of those people in thoise cities had angered Him enough. They were worshiping other gods and sacrificing their own first born children in the process and that was what He wanted eradicated and to not effect the Israelies.
And so it has always been true. When evil men to rise up and begin to take over other people and opress them and kill them by horrible means (the story of dissidents being lowered alive into giant paper shredders by Saddam's sons comes to my mind as an example), then God will grant an army of righteous warriors (righteous in His names sake, not for themselves) the job of ridding the earth of the evil ones. And so we have this conflict.
Get the book "A Table in the Presence" By Carey H. Cash, W Publishing Group, 2004 and read about the battle on April 10, 2003 and know that it actually happened and that it was a miracle (actually a series of miracles) as big as any military miracle in the bible. And it came about because many of our Christian soldiers asked for four legions of angels to protect them in the ambush they knew they had to drive through. And that is EXACTLY what they got. God did weigh in in that battle. No denying it.
There are evil men in this conflict and all you need to do is find the link between Hitler's Nazis and the Grand Mufti of Palestine and then you begin to see that we really didn't get all of the ones who wanted the final soultion to come to fruition in WWII. Do you really think that God want's his chosen all killed by being driven into the sea? And are we suppose to sit by if and when any army marches on them? And do you not understand that we are now also on the hit list by the islaomfascist terrorists? We americans? And did you not understand that we knew that no matter where we went in the middle east with a military force, we would draw the evil ones to us like moths to a flame? I am sorry for the Iraqis that it had to be their country but then, there were many good reasons for going into Iraq and there is a solution and it is working far better than the media is telling us about. And we need to see it through. Or the Iraqis' children and our own chiuldren will know no peace. This is good versus evil and all I have to do is watch one of those evil beheading videos and I know which side I need to be on. Not the one where Satan wields the sword and kills an innocent man like some sort of beast of burdon. No. God loved that victim and He even loves the terrorist...but He also realizes that they (the terrorists) have been given over entirely to the dark side and power and lust for power and hatred now rule their hearts and so they have sealed their fate. War sucks. But being forced to worship something you don't believe in is worse. That's why our forefathers created America.
They (the islamofascists) took the fight to us. Now it is our turn to finish what they started. And God hears all of our prayers...and He will always stand for Good and Love and kindness and an absence of evil. Period. May the Lord shed some real discernment down upon you on this in regard to your fear of or opposition to war. It is not done lightly and we sacrifice much to bring freedom to this Land.
This is our first instalment to flame the Italian Muslim-Commie's ass:
Idle Minds are a Devil's Workshop, but in France we are dealing with Devils’ minds!
"Idle Minds are a Devil's Workshop". This old English adage is today being used by Les Progressives in France to justify the mayhem wrought every night by the descendants of North-African immigrants of Islamic extraction. But the mayhem in France proves the failure of the second appeasement by the French Government. And this appeasement brings to mind the first failed attempt at appeasement by the Anglo-French entente of the Nazis, which failed as miserably, albeit much more spectacularly resulting in a bloodbath from 1939 to 1945.
What we see in France today is a battle against those who do not patronize education, but want the best of jobs, those who have no skill or talent, but want wealth, those who do not pay taxes, but want to enjoy all social security benefits, those who give nothing to society, but want anything they ask in return, those whose madrasas (seminaries) teach them to intimidate and murder.
If they find the conditions unfavorable in the West, why don’t they try their luck in the countries of their origin. They do not because they know they would get fifty lashes, might be stoned to death or even be beheaded.
Photo Credits: globalfire
_____________________
The second failed appeasement of the French has been with the Islamo-fascists. And imagining what lies in store for the French and for Europe at large as a result of this appeasement gives us gooseflesh.
The French government has been singularly steadfast in wooing the Arabs as no other, and has been pressurizing Israel all international fora to surrender to the Palestinians. It is an irony that Les Arabės are now starting to become the nemesis of the contrived multi-culturalism heralded by the French with their philosophy of La Difference.
Les Français may today try to whitewash the mayhem by saying that the rioters mayhem is a natural response to venting their anger the accidental electrocution of the two thieves, or that the rioters are underdogs (under….dogs), or that they have legitimate grievances, or that they are just letting out their pent up rage against the Hijab law.
All this expected chicanery apart the fact remains that what the new sans culottes (the scum as Sarkozy calls them) are doing, is giving the French an foretaste of the shape of things to come. The Arabės do not want anything less than the Islamification of French society. Some days back the Arabės had roughed up French students during a demonstration in Paris. Then the incident was hushed up. Amongst themselves the Arabės who now constitute eleven percent of France refer to the French as White Cheese to be chewed up at the right time.
What we are witnessing on the streets of French cities is a Ghazawa – a Warning raid which forms part of Islamic tradition from the days of their murderer prophet Mohammed. What is happening in France has already eclipsed the London and Madrid blasts on the scale of mass participation, if not in terms of casualties - as yet at least. But the first death from the mayhem has been reported, and there is worse to come.
With Churches being torched as also schools and housing complexes, the Arabės have made their intentions very clear of intimidating the French. But for all that we as English speaking Americans, and more so our cousins from England would have against the French, it remains to be seen how the French show their steel and they have ample of it as seen in Napolėon, De Gaulle, Jean d’ Arc, and not to be forgotten the French Knights during the Crusades and the lion of all of them Charles Martel the hero of Tours, who turned back the Arabės for the first time in Europe in 732 in the Battle of Tours (Poitiers)
What the French need to do it to take off the gloves and move from rubber truncheons and water cannons to helicopter gunships (as the Israelis do) and targeted aerial bombardment using non lethal gas and then if the mobs still do not disperse, then lethal gas (as the Russians had done during the Nord Ost theater siege in Moscow). If Messieurs Dominique de Villepen, Jacques Chirac and Nicolas Sarkozy (of Hungarian and Russian Jewish descent) do not realize this then the only hope the French would have to is to elect Le Pen of Le Front Nationalė (The National Front) to lead the fight against Islamization.
The Arabės understand the language of blood and death – only when the French learn to speak in this language will the mobs be pacified. No amount of appeasement will work for the Jihadis – as it did not for the Nazis.
What the French are confronting today, what the British are already accustomed to, to a lesser degree at Leeds, Bradford. Manchester and London. This is also what the Germans will soon face with the hordes of Turkish immigrants who have made their own exclusive beehives in Hanover, Hamburg, Cologne, Düsseldorf, Berlin, Bonn and other German cities. Other EU states like Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, Italy are all lined up for the same mayhem, unless they flex their muscles and emasculate the Arabės by compulsory repatriation of illegal immigrants and internment of all those on whom the shadow of suspicious activity hovers.
The Europeans have to realize that the Arabės do not want equal opportunities, they want to Islamize Europe. They have said so in as many words that Islam is not here (in America) to be an equal Christianity. It is here to displace Christianity and become the dominant and then the ONLY religion of America. Same holds true for Europe. In fact Europe is the beta-testing battleground for the Arabės who if they succeed there (unlikely), will then move for the kill against the USA. But we in the New World are not sitting idle, Afghanistan and Iraq are our forward positions in this civilizational battle. A battle against those who do not patronize education, but want the best of jobs, those who have no skill or talent, but want wealth, those who do not pay taxes, but want to enjoy all social security benefits, those who give nothing to society, but want anything they ask in return, those whose madrasas (seminaries) teach them to intimidate and murder.
If they find the conditions unfavorable in the West, why don’t they try their luck in the countries of their origin. They do not because they know they would get fifty lashes, might be stoned to death or even be beheaded.
If we continue to give alibis for their murder and mayhem, we would be soon singing the swansong of our way of life. To survive we need to give a new meaning to Libertė, Egalitė, Franternitė. Liberty Equality and Fraternity which are supposed to be our strengths will end up becoming our weaknesses if we do not give ourselves the liberty to annihilate those who want to destroy our way of life, if we do not exercise equality in matching the paranoia of Les Arabės with a steel will to crush them into surrender, and the Fraternity amongst ourselves as Frenchmen, Britons, Americans, Spaniards, Germans to rise up against the common adversary of all of us – Les Arabės.
@ Zeyad (& All).
Everybody remembers the US ‘conquest’ of Fallujah, in November last year; and one remembers that many Iraqi voices (and that of at least an American un-embedded anti-war journalist, Dahr Jamail) did state that the US had used against both ‘insurgents’ and civilians chemical weapons, including white phosphor and napalm, and fragmentation bombs.
In December the US Command officially denied any such reports.
Every reader of Zeyad’s blog will remember as well the scoffing and scorning rebuttals by our US warmongering posters, discounting such reports as ludicrous ‘pro-terrorist’ propaganda.
Yesterday the Italian State Television (RAI) put online a documentary (titled ‘Fallujah, the hidden massacre’), that conclusively proves (with testimonies by US Marines who were there, and who photographed the lot, and the charred corpses of the victims) that such weapons were indeed used. One can download & watch the documentary (either in Italian, or in English, or in Arabic) and see the rather grisly photos at this address:
http://www.rainews24.rai.it/
ran2...lt_02112005.asp
So, the US Command DID LIE (oh, surprise! That’s so uncommon…), and weapons forbidden by the 1980 UN Convention were indeed used by the US forces to subdue Fallujah.
So, the warmongering US posters here have got more egg on their snouts (and their Pinocchio-like noses have grown by another inch).
@ The Three Rats of Waronjihad, 11.08.05 - 6:10 am.
"the Italian Muslim-Commie's ass".
This was a nasty revelation for me!
So, the first time I had to go to the loo after reading this, I gave my ass a stern & proper dressing down: 'How did you dare, you ungrateful s**thole of an ass, to turn Muslim-Commie (indeed!), and without even telling me beforehand!'
My ass was duly ashamed, & promised me it would renounce its evil ways...
Pete S, Maybe what you are missing is that God never said "Thou shall not kill"...what he really said was "Thou shall not murder
No Randy G., with respect, I didn't miss that bit of Christianity 101. As I said, I am trying to think with the Church (
Oops. Screwed the first attempt up.
Pete S, Maybe what you are missing is that God never said "Thou shall not kill"...what he really said was "Thou shall not murder
No Randy G., with respect, I didn't miss that bit of Christianity 101. As I said, I am trying to think with the Church (sentire cum ecclesia). You will see that 3.2.2.5 of the CCC opens with the fifth commandment which you quoted. However if you look at paragraphs 2307 to 2317 is is clear that the justification for war is not a simple matter of determining that an evil has been committed.
God had no problem with the killings when it was necessary for Him to protect his chosen people.
It is problematic to say that God does or doesn't "have a problem" with anything. That aside, let's remember the dangers of being over-inclusive about who the "chosen people" are in an Old Testament context. Even among the Israelites, God has stern words for "obstinate people who pursue their imaginations". Anyway, let's see who you are trying to relate this to...
And so it has always been true. When evil men to rise up and begin to take over other people and opress them and kill them by horrible means ... then God will grant an army of righteous warriors ... the job of ridding the earth of the evil ones.
Have you read the imprecatory Psalms? They are full of questions about why the wicked prosper while the just perish. So, what you say has "always been true", has in fact never been true. In any case, it's an age-old tactic for people to claim God is on their side in a war. I obviously don't rule out that it may be so. But I'm not so credulous as to accept at face value, let's say, the Bishop of London in 1914: "This is a Holy War. We are on the side of Christianity against the anti-Christ", while Kaiser Wilhelm was telling his troops: "Remember that the German people are the chosen of God... On me, on me as German emperor, the Spirit of God has descended. I am His weapon, His sword and His visor." There is, of course, such a thing as idolatry of the state.
In fact, war is always evil. Period. That is not to say that it is never justified. But it puts paid to picture of God "not having a problem with" some troop of righteous warriors crusading for the kingdom. The kingdom is "not of this world", remember?
Do you really think that God want's his chosen all killed by being driven into the sea? And are we suppose to sit by if and when any army marches on them?
Is this a reference to the State of Israel? That is surely somewhat tangential to the current conflict.
This is good versus evil and all I have to do is watch one of those evil beheading videos and I know which side I need to be on.
That is also tangential to whether there should be a war going on.
War sucks. But being forced to worship something you don't believe in is worse.
I agree. But again, it presupposes a dilemma which may not have existed at the outset.
God hears all of our prayers...and He will always stand for Good and Love and kindness and an absence of evil. Period. May the Lord shed some real discernment down upon you on this in regard to your fear of or opposition to war.
Agreed, and thank you. However, as a Catholic my view on this is not coloured only by prayer and personal discernment.
According to WarOnJihad (and RedNeck filth like him at JihadWatch and the like):
Aids in Africa? Islam and Arabs
Bird Flu Virus? Arabs and Islam
Earthquakes, Floodings, Fucking Avalanches? Those nasty rag heads and their Islam
Hurricane Katrina, Wilma, Ass? Arabs and Muslims
Global Warming? Arabs and Islam
I am actually thankful this sort of specimen posts in here. Brother Zeyad can see for himself there is no marked difference between our own Jihad types (once again, bred and sponsored by the Number 1 Terrorist Nation on this Planet) and the backward ass redneck nazis called neo-cons.
NOOOOOO to IRI & USA
@ All.
The direct address for the download of the documentary of the Italian State TV on ‘Fallujah, the hidden massacre’ (in English) is:
http://www.rainews24.rai.it/
ran2...allujah_ING.wmv
Today, of course, most Italian daily newspapers reported on it.
@ Lynnette in Minnesota, 11.07.05 - 5:10 pm.
Dear Lynnette, thanks a lot for that wonderful Irish prayer, which I’ll fervently pray from now on (I didn’t know it; unfortunately it was not on the wall of my parish church…).
BTW, I strongly suspect that in you our PeteS has eventually managed to smoke out a fourth Catholic…
Lynnette, I’m always quite astonished at the image most Americans have of the present situation in Iraq, in this age of ‘global information’ and of Internet links. It might have something to do with the fact that most Americans know no language apart from their own (I, for instance, cannot read Arabic, of course, but I can read most Neo-Latin languages); but this does not adequately explain the huge information gap between what most people in the world know about what’s happening in Iraq, and the ideas most of you American posters seem to have (it’s almost like if you were living on a different planet… oh, sorry, I didn’t remember… the Planet of the A…).
What you wrote shows that quite clearly: “Do you honestly believe that the corruption and simple cheating that was learned under Saddam can be overcome in one election, or two, or three?”.
Dear Lynnette, what we are discussing about is NOT simple electoral cheating and corruption ‘Tammany Hall’ style, or ‘Chicago in the Twenties’ style (there is that as well), but a completely different situation. When you have percentages of more than 97 % on average in 13 out of 18 Iraqi provinces (12 for the ‘Yes’ and one for the ‘No’), it is definitely NOT just a matter of ‘corruption’, but of wholesale control of the vote. If it were just a case of “corruption and simple cheating”, then I would agree with you.
And this control of the vote works in two ways.
At the central level of each province and of their ‘electoral commissions’ (composed by the ‘Yes’ parties) in covering up on, or in putting the official seal on, electoral fraud (like the wholesale substitution of ballot boxes), or in directly perpetrating the same.
At the ground level, more unpleasantly, it works on the massive intimidation of the voters. The only Americans that might have any idea of such intimidation are, maybe, the blacks of some of your Southern States, where similar situations were present in the years between 1877-1964 (but there aren’t many blacks among US posters here). Now, where organised armed militias control both the area and official State security, like it happens all throughout the Shiite South and in some districts of Baghdad on the part of the Shiite fundamentalist militias (& the Badr Brigades have since last April the complete control of the Ministry of Interiors, including the Mukhabarat, the police and the ‘National’ Guard) and in parts of the North on the part of the Kurdish peshmerga, they come to be informed about the political leanings of the different families.
(continued…)
(…continued)
So, just imagine that you live in Maysan (controlled by the Sadrists) or in Nasiriya (contended by the Sadrists and the SCIRI/Badr), or in Basra (controlled by the SCIRI/Badr, the Sadrists, the Fadhila and the Hizbullah) and you wanted to vote ‘No’ to the ‘Constitution’ (of course, nobody there was suicidal enough as to openly campaign for a ‘No’ vote). Some armed gentlemen would pay you a visit, telling you how it would be very unwise on your part to go near any polling booth on referendum day. Imagine you’re prepared to be a martyr rather than give in. Those gentleman would kindly make you change your mind, telling you in detail what could happen to your daughter, or your mum, or your husband, in the case of defiance.
And, look, such ‘gentlemen’ do appear to be gangsters and thugs to those on the receiving end, but not in their own eyes! Because they are the Upholders of Most Noble Causes (in the case of the first ones, of the divinely ordained Beards of their Ayatollahs and mullahs, in the case of the latter, of Kurdish Nationhood).
So, when you say “Was there fraud? Probably. But was there enough to overturn an election? That is my question”, the answer is of course Yes! The ‘fraud’, here, is structural and permanent, systemic, and will be repeated at the December elections, when the Shiite fundamentalist parties will get an ample majority, and establish their Islamic Republic (and the two Kurdish ones confirm their de facto independent Iraqi Kurdistan). So, in the case of ‘liberated’ Iraq, your observation that “Democracy is not static” is quite lame. Nobody is going to “be free” through the present ‘political process’ (unless you believe that the Iranian ‘democratic model’ means ‘Freedom’…).
About Ninevah, the “everyone” meant everybody who cared to check the data about the elections of last January and to check the numbers concerned, knowing that those who had abstained in January all went and voted ‘No’ this time.
"‘patriotic resistance’? What exactly is their vision for Iraq after they remove the ‘foreign invaders’ from Iraqi soil? What kind of government do they plan on setting up and how?”.
They did have some political meetings and issued some interesting resolutions (see the latest ones downloadable from the ‘Free Iraq’ blog by Imad Khadduri). But, yes, on the political front the resistance still pays the legacy of 35 years of Saddam’s dictatorship (it is difficult to be able to debate and agree politically, when it was forbidden for such a long time).
As about the US troops, be they murderous fanatics or naïve kids (they comprise both kinds), outside of the US most people know as a fact that they are brilliantly dying not in order “to give the people of Iraq a chance to live in” freedom, but on behalf of two regional powers (namely, Israel and Iran) that just wanted to destroy Iraq, and managed to use the US Administration to their ends. Which was quite easy on their part, through Ledeen and Chalabi respectively, exploiting the strange mixture of mad readiness to homicidal violence, of ignorant arrogance and of extreme gullibility that characterises you critters up to your highest levels.
Still limping,
Pete S,
Thanks for your reply to my comments. You have given me much to ponder on. I am still of the mind that we did something in Iraq that God did not have a problem with...for we created Saddam and we then needed to go in and take him out again. That I will always stand by. As for all wars being evil...amen to that. But when you see the miracles of April 10th, 2003 that I spoke of or hear about them and their validity, it does make you see things in a different eye.
Israel is still the land of God's chosen. Are they all faithful to him? Not in a heartbeat. Some are and many have fallen away. But God does love us all, the ones who try to stay sinless and the ones who sin a storm up. He just can't abide by the sins and that is the eternal rub for us mere humans. We either give our will over to him and do the best to clean up our act and stop sinning to the best of our ability (which gets so much easier when infilled with the holy spirit)...or we ignore it all and spend our lives careening towards that fatal encounter with our Lord and Savior. None will escape the final judgement. None. I just know that all I can do while still on earth is to continue to give my will over to his will and to stand for the righteousness of his WORD and for justice and freedom in the world. and so I stand against beheaders and killers of children and liars and slanderers and people who try and make others out to be what they are not and against anyone who follows Satan and his proud walk...no matter if they know they follow him or not. I do realize that those of the muslim faith are as diverse a group as us christians and that there are good and bad muslims...just as there are good and bad Christians. That movie "Kingdom of Heaven" was just strewn with pearls of wisdom in regards to both Christianity and the Islamic faith. Whould that we the good of the Christians and the muslims can and do find common ground...and stand against Satan wherever he shows his influence.
@ PeteS, 11.07.05 - 5:19 pm.
Your Holiness Peter (the II, one presumes),
You got already the best and sharpest answer to your sanctimonious homily through the combined posts by our Randy G and by those fellas at Waronjihad; Randy representing American eschatology, the three Rats representing instead American scatology; but the two American approaches are convergent, aren’t they?
Incidentally, I do hope that you realise (but one wouldn’t understand that, from the tenor of your answer to him) that if our Randy is a ‘Catholic’, then both you and me are Hindus…
Anyway, first things first. The parents of the last Palestinian child murdered by the Israelis, who yesterday donated his organs for transplant to six Israeli patients, are, no doubt, much better Christian Catholic and much more charitable than I am (even though, AFAIK, they are actually Muslim. And, Holy Father Peadarín, since double standards have some relevance to our discussion, do please note how we have not been deluged, in this case, by US posters pointing at that incident; strange, ain’t it? Especially in such places as Little Green Footballs, Free Republican Forum, Iraq The Minion, or the site run by the three Rats mentioned above, not a single day the Lord made may pass without such momentous news as ‘Man caught for peeing in the public park: he was a MUSLIM!’).
And, yes, I do not come across as very charitable (especially towards some transoceanic critters); and, yes, I know that you might quote St. Paul about charity being the most important thing.
But you seem to completely forget that there is a thing called ‘justice’ (I wonder if you ever heard of it) and another called ‘truth’, and that they are quite important as well.
If you forget about them, then I’m afraid that your apparent ‘charity’ gets null and void… And those who keep silent in front of the injustice done to others are NOT charitable at all. “However, two years is a bit long for ‘temporary hot-under-the-collarness’”, you wrote; nay, Most Seraphic Highness Pete, if the injustice goes on, a Catholic (well, any man, actually) should keep being ‘hot under the collar’. If one does not, maybe his/her moral fibre is a bit faulty…
I was not mistaken about your double standards, Your Holiness Peter: when did it happen, for instance, that you pointed to the possibility that the US forces in Iraq might have been driven by some ‘mad-bastard-hood’ (like you did for the Iraqis opposing the occupation)? Go and watch the RAI documentary about the US war crimes in Fallujah: they did them, and then lied about it; mad-bastard-hood anybody?
And, anyway, about your third point, I do not comment on Iraqi blogs because I’m a Catholic: I comment because I’m a man. That I’m a Catholic came out quite incidentally months ago, because of the delirious statements of our Randy G. I was (and still am – think of it, before recognising our loony Randy as a fellow ‘Catholic’) afraid that some sectarian madman from the Iraqi Muslim side could use them as a justification for attacking Iraqi Christians (who are Catholic in their majority). I do hope that such fanatics do not read English.
(continued…)
(…continued)
As for the Iraqi Christians, some of them are engaged in the patriotic resistance (yes, Randy, that is the case); and when they manage to kill American soldiers, first they rejoice (yes, Pete, they ‘revel in their deaths’) and thank the Lord, and only later they pray for their souls. First things first…
And, Pete, when last year in February and in March six American preachers who were trying to ‘convert’ the Iraqis to the same brand of sectarian & mindless ‘American Christianity’ of our Randy G got killed by the insurgents, all Iraqi Christians (including those who were politically in favour of the US occupation) thanked the Lord, and this was told me by an Iraqi Christian (Catholic) who was there (and who, incidentally, was then politically in favour of the occupation). As an Irishman, I’m quite sure you understand that this sort of evil US soupers, vermin that tries to buy your soul, are not welcome (to use a considerable understatement) to the Christian Churches of Iraq, most of which have been there for the past two thousand years…
“some of the people who talked about ‘turning the middle east into glass’ etc. were fools, no more to be reasoned with than the local village idiot. Others were just temporarily hot under the collar”.
No, Pete, you are being rather disingenuous about it. Some were, but most were not. Ever had a peep at the Iraq The Minion comments pages? Or at any US political forums? And, anyway, occasionally I have a look at Italian and Irish forums and blogs: how is it that you don’t find there such an incredible abundance of your ‘local village idiots’? Any idea?
“Are you really asking why I wasn't utterly opposed to the war in Iraq, as you are? I've been trying all along to understand how Catholic moral teaching should be applied to the situation. I'd be the first to admit I'm not sure of the answer”.
Yes, let’s take the bull by the horns, dear Pete. Being a human being (not necessarily a Catholic) is more than enough in order to know that, since 1945, any war of aggression or ‘pre-emptive war’ (LOL! Nice name, like the ‘collateral damages’, etc. etc.!) is widely regarded as immoral and forbidden. Add the grotesque and Hitleresque lies that anybody minimally informed about the situation knew for what they were, and that seems to be more than enough for any human being outside of Iraq to conclude that this US war was unjust, and an abomination (in Iraq, to the contrary, most just hoped in the end of the dictatorship and of the sanctions, having no idea of what would be, instead, the dreadful result). And now it’s more than two years and a half later, and most people outside the US know what tragedy has been happening in Iraq (‘Fweedom & Democwacy’ me ass)… Your trying, instead, “to understand how Catholic moral teaching should be applied to the situation” (remaining “not sure of the answer” as an obvious result), does recall, Pete (I’m very sorry about it), the most disreputable activities of the allergenic spadefoot toads as described in the article you brought to our attention…
(continued…)
(…continued)
As for the Apes “stuff”, you know very well, dear Pete, that it is not my invention. I’d love to take the credit, but I cannot: in most countries outside the US, in their many different languages, the Americans are very often referred to as, precisely, ‘apes’ and ‘monkeys’ (and not, say, ‘rhinoceros’ or something else). And you should (but they should even more) wonder why (and you, Pete, do indeed know the why, don’t you?). In a European island you might have visited, for instance, once I had the bad idea of meeting an American PhD student at my local, telling my native pals beforehand that this was not an American like most, but rather a ‘European intellectual’ type. The guy came, and did something most objectionable according to local standards, and unconceivable on the part of somebody who had been living there for about a year. For a couple of weeks after that, according to their custom, the natives made fun of me: “An’ ye swore to us tis was not an ape, X… Next time ye wanna bring along such a ‘European intellectual’, ye kin git one straight from Phoenix Park!” (the local zoo).
Of course, usually people across the world don’t welcome Americans calling them apes or monkeys; that would be very impolite and against all manners! And, besides, it wouldn’t be good for US investments and tourism! So our poor Americans have no clue about how most foreigners see them. In those situations where Americans instead get openly called like that, like once in Vietnam and today in Iraq, that’s the very least of the things thrown at them they have to worry about…
Now, Pete, I’m actually doing a favour to your US friends by revealing this little open secret; maybe the most intelligent among them might start to wonder why people all across the world think of them as apes and monkeys… Is it because ‘them are all eeeevil’, or because ‘they envy us our fweedom’? Hardly likely…
“What distinction are you making between yourself, who is happy to see ‘vengeance’ wreaked on U.S. troops, and, let's say, an American who wants to lash out at anything that moves in the middle east because of 9/11?”.
Dear Pete, if you truly are unable to see the basic MORAL difference, then I truly cannot help you…
“Which bit of your Catholic morality are you drawing on there?”.
Not so much my Catholic morality (apart from the sense of justice, which is central to it, dear Pete, in case you forgot…), but common human nature!
Oh so cruel of me, you say, to rejoice because nearly 2,060 US soldiers, who had laid waste to, and invaded another country, and who had no more right to be there than the Nazi soldiers had in, say, Poland during WW2, have been finally sent to the place where the wicked cease to give trouble!
If there is an evil bully who has been terrorising the neighbourhood for decades, committing unspeakable actions, and then he gets his due, who wouldn’t be happy?
(continued…)
@ PeteS, 11.07.05 - 5:19 pm.
(…continued)
“the obvious - that people getting killed in a war is an evil no matter who gets killed or does the killing?”
Well, Pete, this is quite obvious in ‘spiritual’ terms. In practical and more mundane – or historical - terms, you can either be an absolute abstract pacifist, or you have to morally choose your side, choosing the lesser evil; and then you have to side with your own. In this unfortunately very concrete situation, the only way the US public is going to wake up, and to compel its Government to dump this crazy and dangerous global adventure (driven by the fanatical plans of the Neo-Cons), is through a steady increase in the number of their soldiers coming home in star’n’striped boxes. The Iraqi patriots, by killing more and more US troops, are saving the whole world from worse horrors. And you know very well that unfortunately that is the only thing that matters to the Americans, apart from a very small moral minority of people like the valiant Susan/Dancewater; till the dead are of ‘the others’, civilians included, they cannot give a damn. Then the flag-waving American mommas start getting their kids back home in said boxes, or with some limbs missing, and then, and only then, they start to care and to get reasonable, and vaguely …human. So the US go home, and keep relatively quiet for a generation or so; and then, unfortunately, they start giving trouble again.
“I'll refuse to get down off the soap box on this one”.
Peadarín, you are already slipping down; your soap box was slippery with that special Irish Catholic soap, what’s the brand, ah, oh, ‘Hypocrisy’ (our American friends are unable to spell it, most of them, because they are unable to recognise it in themselves… and innocently so! ).
Vote in favour
Dictatorship should be removed from any country.
Noe remove it from pakistan
regards
Ravish Kumar
http://tradealaon.com
Testing, is this working today?
I just hate that when a comments section bombs out. I have to start all over again.
Italian,
You're welcome. I thought the prayer was rather nice.
I must say that post you wrote was well thought out and presented the facts as you see them, minus most of the name-calling you indulged in, in the past.
I watched your video. It was a very slick presentation. They showed some real war footage from a decades old war as an intro to their white phospherous and napalm(or it's clone)
usage accusations with current war footage and intermixed innuendo and rumors for good filler. The one thing I didn't see was "the other sides" story. But maybe that isn't necessary when selling "journalism" in Italy. The killing of civilians in Iraq has most certainly happened. It is a war and in war civilians are the ones who suffer.
Here is an excerpt from an article regarding recent fighting in Husaybah.
"The U.S. military reported Wednesday that some Iraqi civilians were killed in Husaybah when a U.S. jet attacked a house used by insurgents last Monday, not realizing noncombatants were also inside.
A Marine statement quoted a local Iraqi as saying insurgents forced their way into the home, killed two residents and then locked remaining family members in a room.
"The group then used the home to launch an attack against Iraqi and U.S. forces clearing the area," the statement said. "Subsequently, the house was destroyed by coalition aircraft."
Five bodies were found in the rubble, the statement added. A man and a young girl were rescued and evacuated for medical treatment."
Who is at fault? The snake that bites or the one who pokes the snake?
"But, yes, on the political front the resistance still pays the legacy of 35 years of Saddam’s dictatorship (it is difficult to be able to debate and agree politically, when it was forbidden for such a long time)."
And it would not be difficult to hold clean and fair elections without coercion after learning such behavior in "35 years of Saddam’s dictatorship"?
"The ‘fraud’, here, is structural and permanent, systemic, and will be repeated at the December elections,"
"So, in the case of ‘liberated’ Iraq, your observation that “Democracy is not static” is quite lame."
So sad. Your implication being that the Iraqis really can't change. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't. I don't believe that is the case. They aren't stupid, Italian. There are alot of people in Iraq, yes including Shiites, who do not believe in a government patterned on Iran. They have been free of Saddam for a little over 2 and a half years. Not much time in the scheme of things. They have a ways to go. Give them a chance.
"The parents of the last Palestinian child murdered by the Israelis, who yesterday donated his organs for transplant to six Israeli patients, are, no doubt, much better Christian Catholic and much more charitable than I am"
It is people like this that give me hope for the world.
"in most countries outside the US, in their many different languages, the Americans are very often referred to as, precisely, ‘apes’ and ‘monkeys’"
Unlike these. Whether true or not.
"Still limping"
I've heard elevation works too. But you have to be careful that the blood doesn't all rush to your head. It can make thought processes even more muddled than they already are.
Drat, I knew I'd forget something. Just wanted to say that the homepage thing was rather clever. Gotta get in as many none too subtle digs as you can! Right?
here the heart of online trading it's tradeAloan.com
try it now ...
Italian 11.09.05 - 5:24 am-7:54 pm, that is quite an extensive amount if hand-waving you engaged in there. If you want to appeal to Scripture, Tradition, or Magisterial teaching to demonstrate the rightness of revelling in the deaths of U.S. soldiers I am all ears (but you didn't). Given that you are an intelligent bloke, I will assume its wrong and you know its wrong.
those who keep silent in front of the injustice done to others are NOT charitable at all.
Yeah. (I notice when I don't keep silent its a "sanctimonious homily"?). You know that bit in your bible where Jonah says: "Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned, you four-handed beasts who are going to die and good riddance to you" ... how do the Ninevites react in your version?
Incidentally, I do hope that you realise (but one wouldn’t understand that, from the tenor of your answer to him) that if our Randy is a ‘Catholic’, then both you and me are Hindus
He mentioned he was a "Christian first and a Catholic second".
I do not comment on Iraqi blogs because I’m a Catholic: I comment because I’m a man.
Are you a "Catholic second" too? Happy Diwali.
As for the Apes stuff, you know very well, dear Pete, that it is not my invention.
On the contrary, I have never ever encountered it except from you (ok ... and these low-paid programmners).
If there is an evil bully who has been terrorising the neighbourhood for decades, committing unspeakable actions, and then he gets his due, who wouldn’t be happy?
Should one be happy because the oppression is lifted or because the bully is dead?
[people getting killed in a war is an evil no matter who gets killed or does the killing]
Well, Pete, this is quite obvious in ‘spiritual’ terms.
Then it is equally obviously wrong to rejoice over evil.
An Italian,
You said "As for the Iraqi Christians, some of them are engaged in the patriotic resistance (yes, Randy, that is the case); and when they manage to kill American soldiers, first they rejoice (yes, Pete, they ‘revel in their deaths’) and thank the Lord, and only later they pray for their souls."
Sorry to inform you but to be a christian means that you need to be Christlike and follow his teachings. I seriously doubt if you could find even two Iraqi Christians that are involved with supporting the Baathists or Al Zarqawi's deadly bombaholics. Most Iraqis are fed up with all of the killings. You want to create some sort of altered "Iraqi Christian Militia" who want to kill Americans (fellow christians for the most part) then go right ahead. But don't expect any of us to take you seriously.
I did look at your link to the Falluja and White Phosphorous misuse that you posted...not sure why they want to tie it in with the Dresden, Germany bombings...but hey...when you have leftist wierdos trying to find conspiracies galore...hey...any link to any atreocity will work. As our President has said, we deny using that weapon in Falluja. I think your italian newspapers are still pissed off about the journalist getting killed when his car approached a US military checkpoint at excessive speed (a tragic event, no doubt...but not one that was premeditated).
And I am still a Roman Catholic...I have even been invited to join the parish council. Sorry if you just can't grasp the significance.
An Italian,
For the record...any references I make to my religion or to teachings of Christians are not intended to be twisted around by any in Iraq, nor do I believe for a millisecond that they might incite someone to make any violent moves towards Iraqi Christians. And as you have observed...they are warriors anyway (NOT).
I an fully aware that Zeyad is a secular Iraqi who is from the sunni group. In reading his blog posts I am confident that he grasps why we did enter Iraq and that he gets that I as well (as a commentor) want to see a new Iraqi government rise up like a phoenix to reclaim the pride that is unique to Iraq. Though there has been such a history of warfare and feuds among the many Iraqi groups, I think I share the belief with Zeyad and the vast majority of Iraqis that there is hope for a peaceful future in which Iraq will become stable and it's citizens will get back to a normal life. And I think that he and the majority know that that will never happen if they capitulate to either the Baathists "insurrectionists" or al Zarqawi. And so they should all work towards finding that common ground that will allow the pride of being an Iraqi overshadow the pride of being of some particular sect or clan. For only in finding the common path to achieve a peace will they all come to know peace. And in my mentioning of my faith, I am never trying to suggest to anyone that they should think of switching religions. God above will make that desire be kindled in any he so choses...none of us humans can really do that. No. I think that there is wisdom in each religion and if we can all find the common ground that each one has that can be shared, then things will get better. For instance...Jesus said that one must love one's neighbor and that that was one of the main tenants of Christianity. Seems good advice and if heeded, it would go a long way towards ending strife. And no one has to become a christian to get it or practice it. It is just really good advice. So enough of your trying to use my faith to make me out to be something I am not or someone who should not speak up when I think I can offer something.
Bit by bit, there is more light at the end of the tunnel. For that I am grateful.
An Italian,
LOL...you crack me up...you really said..."And, Pete, when last year in February and in March six American preachers who were trying to ‘convert’ the Iraqis to the same brand of sectarian & mindless ‘American Christianity’ of our Randy G "? You think that? You know something I don't know? You ever read the bible? Or is being a catholic mean that there is some other sort of text that you are to follow? This nonsense is a hoot.
American Christianity? How about just plain old "Christianity"?
An Itallian...I am emailing the pope tonight because satan has demons encased in your frontal lobe. Sad to see your ramblings. Sad indeed. And war does suck...in case you didn't know that I understand that as well. And someday I hope you could introduce me to a "Neo-con"...a real live one so I can ask him what he thinks of the world. Dillusional or possessed? What be ye? Hmmmmm
RandyG --
I have seen with my own eyes the clip showing clusters of WP being shot into the city. Your President, as if you had to be reminded, is a pathological LIAR. And if he denied the use of WP as a weapon in Fallujah, he JUST LIED AGAIN.
An Italian - Hi! In form as per usual, I see.
@ Poor Randy G (11.08.05 - 1:17 am to 11.11.05 - 12:49 am), and @ All.
“then you go and act as if Zeyad and the other Iraqi bloggers”, “our Iraqi hosts”.
Sorry, Randy, here we have just ONE Iraqi host, and he is Zeyad, and nobody else. If you were able to read (instead of being deaf and dumb), you would have read his posts (including the last before this one, about what your beloved Shiite militias were doing in Basra just before the establishment of THEIR Government in April; and since then they have been doing much worse).
“the one who is halucinating [sic! = ‘hallucinating’]...”.
Poor Randy, as everybody can see by what you write, you are hallucinating big time.
“We came to remove him and we did”.
Who gave you the right to do that? Mickey Mouse? Or the ‘divine’ principle of ‘might is right’?
“if you read Zarqawi's letter”.
Poor Randy, and you do believe in the fictitious ‘Zarqawi letters’? Not even your fellow warmongers believe in them anymore. They come one dime a dozen, like the ‘Zarqawi’s top aides’ who ‘get caught’ every single day…
You aren’t even able to spell your own language, but you can evaluate the reliability of some text written in Arabic, don’t you? All old readers of Zeyad’s blog for sure remember when, out of your asinine but arrogant ignorance, you blasphemed the Arabic name of the Lord.
“the US is staying till we make sure the new government is up and stablized [sic! = ‘stabilized’. Unless you meant ‘thrown into the stables’: and in that case Zeyad would surely appreciate your intention…]”.
The US are staying till 1) the Iranian Government wants them to stay, as an insurance policy against aggression and as a needed prop to their satellite Islamic Republic in Iraq (i.e., up to January 2009 ); or, instead, 2) because of the increasing losses the American population gets angry at the moronic enterprise, and compels your Administration to a speedy withdrawal.
“the Shia are taking their rightful place as the majority of Iraqi citizens and the ones who...by the vote [and above all by murder and intimidation, Randy dear]... can best affect their own future and the future of the new Iraqi government”.
Randy, oh genius, it is not “the Shia”, but the fundamentalist Shiite religious parties allied to Iran, who want to impose an Islamic Republic on every Iraqi (and many Shiites do not relish the idea). Do you think our Zeyad agrees with you about the desirability of this development?
“there are just too many who read these blogs who know the truth to ever think that even some will buy into your concoctions and outright lies”.
If the ‘truth’ about the present situation in Iraq were your ignorant rants, by now even in the US only the severely mentally retarded share it. And, please, do point out just ONE “outright lie” (i.e., a ‘lie’ that all readers can immediately check, not something based on your doped beliefs) on my part…
“I am a Christian first...then a Catholic”.
Thanks God for small mercies.
But you are not a ‘Christian’; you (and your Ape in Chief) are instead ‘American Christianists’.
(continued…)
(…continued)
‘American Christianism’ is a cult (a death cult, some would argue) that has as little to do with mainstream “plain old Christianity” as the ‘Bin Laden’ one has to do with mainstream Islam. Yes, both can claim some generic link with some marginal and rather extreme brands of mainstream Christianity and Islam, respectively (‘American Christianism’ with the radical Calvinism of the XVI & XVII centuries and with some later ‘ecstatic’ sects, like the Pentecostal Baptists; ‘Bin Ladenism’ with the Wahabi/Deobandi school).
BTW, as far as your American English spelling is concerned, your “dillusional” should be ‘delusional’; “caibler” should be ‘caliber’; “Israelies” should be ‘Israelis’; “opress” should be ‘oppress’; “want’s” should be ‘wants’ (3rd person singular); “burdon” should be ‘burden’; “whould” should be ‘would’; “atreocity” should be ‘atrocity’; “choses” should be ‘chooses’; etc. etc. etc.
Yes, I know that it is quite impolite and uncharitable of me to remark on this, but you should become aware of your obvious cultural limits.
“We were never Imperialists and never will be. That is one stupid commentary that we usually expect to read from the evil enemy. We have never taken over another country and we are not about to now”.
Randy dear, I know that your schooling was poor, but… Apart from most of the States themselves (what about the Native Americans?), didn’t you “take over” more than half of Mexico (1836-53) ? Did the US give it back to the Mexicans, ever? And what about Guam and Puerto Rico? And didn’t you slightly overstay your welcome (189 in the Philippines?… It seems you are big time into “outright LIES” (aren’t you?).
“But we did come to drain the swamps of teachings of hatred towards us and towards the Israelies and towards any who value freedom. And we came to plant the seed of freedom in Iraq and Afghanistan”.
Are you crazy or what? (yes, I know you unfortunately are). That’s called a WAR OF AGGRESSION, and it’s IMMORAL.
“your satan's hatred towards fellow Christians”.
Again, poor deluded Randy, you (& those like you) are NOT “fellow Christians” to me (or to most Christians in the world). You are just a bunch of ‘American Christianists’, a mad and fanatical sect, the precise equivalent of ‘Bid Laden’ & ‘Zarqawi’.
“the story of dissidents being lowered alive into giant paper shredders by Saddam's sons comes to my mind as an example”.
Poor moronic Randy, this is just an “OUTRIGHT LIE”, shown to be such already two years ago. The story of Saddam’s shredder was just a propaganda invention (like the killing of Kuwaiti babies in incubators back in 1990, like the ‘rescue’ of Jessica Lynch, like the imaginary ‘rape’ of prostitute Hanna, like the WMDs). BTW, you claim you’re a biologist, right? You possibly should know that you cannot put a man into a “giant paper shredder” without it stopping immediately…
“God will grant an army of righteous warriors the job of ridding the earth of the evil ones. And so we have this conflict”.
I imagine your most ineffectual critic PeteS will have to see the absolute identity between ‘American Christianism’ and ‘Bin Ladenism’ here…
(continued…)
(…continued)
“the book ‘A Table in the Presence’ By Carey H. Cash, […] four legions of angels”, etc.
Poor Randy, we know you are deaf and not quite there (maybe too many ‘acids’ – LSD - when you were a kid), but we (including our PeteS) already answered to this at length in the past. Why didn’t you listen?
If any Iraqi patriot is reading these comments page, I suggest that they get that book and spread through all Arabic news channels what our Randy says (with the title ‘Baloney the Americans believe’); it will be an effective counter to that most unfortunate blunder of the ‘giant spiders of Fallujah’.
“I seriously doubt if you could find even two Iraqi Christians that are involved with supporting the Baathists or Al Zarqawi’s deadly bombaholics”.
You won’t find ANY Iraqi Christians supporting ‘Zarqawi the Ghost’, but you’ll find some supporting the Iraqi patriotic, non-sectarian resistance against the beastly and mindless US invaders and their ‘puppets of convenience’.
What’s that, Randy, invading countries is “Christ-like” in your “Whom would Jesus kill” sort of satanic ‘Christianism’, while resisting the invaders is not?
“As our President has said, we deny using that weapon in Falluja”.
Your own military have by now admitted it (white phosphorus, and napalm): ergo, your President is a LIAR, like Bruno remarked. Any questions?
And, Randy, do please learn to listen to what people answer to your arguments. That would prevent you from posting over and over again ludicrous things that have already been debunked (like the ‘human shredder’ and the ‘miracles of 10 April 2003’, LOL!).
And again, dear Randy, do please show me just ONE “outright lie” on my part.
Being there (quite properly!) an anti-spam filter, so that one cannot post more than three times in a row, I wasn’t able to answer to Lynnette’s and to PeteS’ posts (I hope to do it tomorrow).
In the meanwhile, ‘benvenuto, Bruno!’.
An Italian,
You said "And again, dear Randy, do please show me just ONE “outright lie” on my part."
Your lie that the "insurrectionists" (known as terrorists by all freedom loving peoples) are actually patriots of Iraq would be the best place to start. You are on some sort of parrallel planet, me bucko. Way out there, man...way out there. Try reading about any of the hundreds of bombings of innocent citizens of Iraq by this murderous and power hungry bunch of evil types and then make them out to be patriots. You are so busted.
And April 10th happened...sorry to inform you on your parrallel planet.
An Italian,
You said "We have never taken over another country and we are not about to now”.
But what about Ethiopia?...Oh yeah...I forgot...they defeated your Goose stepping Mousollini and his fascist forces with spears and arrows. Yeah...you guys are so tough. Course if I were to go back to the days of Rome...well...you did take over just about every nation in the western hemisphere. There is a new series on HBO in AMerica cronicling the Roman empire...lots of sinful, lustful debauchery going on there. Oh yeah...your country is just full of a saintly past.
Go read Bush's latest speech...he is right on and you, my friend, are all wet.
An Italian,
You said I said..."“God will grant an army of righteous warriors the job of ridding the earth of the evil ones. And so we have this conflict”."
Sorry...I never said that. I know that God is involved over in Iraq but as for righteous warriors...well...you slander me with that comment. Some of our soldiers are Christians...some are jews...some are Muslims...some are hindu's...some are secular. So as for an army of righteous warriors...that sounds more like a Al Zarqawi line. I keep praying that God would shower some discernment down upon you...but so far He has chosen not to...maybe that is because Satan has your ear right now. You think that killers of children are "patriots"...you are on that parrallel planet again. And sorry for my spelling but there is no spell check and it's late and I am sorry if my misspelling offends you.
An Italian...
Oops...looks like I quoted one of my lines (about taking over any other country) and thought it was your line. It's late and though I do enjoy sparring with you, I will wait till I am rested again before continuing. You give me so many laughs with your "It's been debunked" and disproven. Yeah? By whom? Al Zarqawi? Go get the book (A Table in the Presence" and read it for yourself and stop with the "it didn't happen"...for it did and every soldier in that convoy knows it and no "It didn't happen" will ever snuff out the truth. That's the trouble with you slanderers...so busy spreading lies that eventually you loose sight of what the real truth is and find entry onto that parrallel planet. So nighty night. I'll come back to play tomorrow. Meanwhile, read Bush's speech...its on most of the other blogs and it is real and it is what we are all about. God Bless a free and soveriegn Iraq nation and God bless it's innocent people.
@ Lynnette in Minnesota, 11.10.05 - 11:03 am & 12:01 pm.
The point of the RAI video, dear Lynnette, was not the US “killing of civilians in Iraq”. Outside the US of America, everybody knows that you have been killing plenty of Iraqi civilians. The point was that the napalm ‘clone’ and white phosphorus were INDEED used last November in Fallujah, something that your officials – and even more vehemently US warmongers in these blogs - have kept denying ever since (but, surprise, an article from a US military paper admitted that much).
“It is a war and in war civilians are the ones who suffer”.
No, Lynnette: it is not considered a “war” by any State or international organisation (UN included), not even, at least formally, by the US Government. The war ended the 1st of May 2003. It is an occupation; and, according to the Geneva Conventions, the occupiers are not supposed to kill ANY civilians, nor to damage their properties.
The Husaybah example is a very good one of what is NOT tolerated on the part of an occupying power by the international conventions. Some ‘insurgents’ take over a house, allegedly killing two residents; what does anybody in charge of law & order do, according to the Geneva Conventions? They send forces to apprehend or kill the ‘insurgents’, taking care that the ‘hostages’ are saved. What do the US do, instead? They just destroy the house from the air, killing the civilians as well! You cannot even image how such news are taken in any place outside the US.
“Who is at fault? The snake that bites or the one who pokes the snake?”.
And who is the “snake” in Iraq, sweet Lynnette? Is the Eyrakian Army, by any chance, occupying the US after a war of aggression, and after having burnt alive the people of Milwakee, Syracuse, and a dozen other cities and towns? Who’s the biting ‘snake’ in Iraq?
For sure this American snake has to be poked.
“There are a lot of people in Iraq, yes including Shiites, who do not believe in a government patterned on Iran. They have been free of Saddam for a little over 2 and a half years. Not much time in the scheme of things. They have a ways to go. Give them a chance”.
Well, Lynnette, it has not much to do with the Iraqis. Your occupation created the basis for the Shiite fundamentalist parties (allied to Iraq) to take control of most parts of Iraq. The US were searching for local forces to fight the ‘insurgents’, and the Shiite militias filled the bill.
Now they are entrenched in Government, and they won’t let go; the elections are irrelevant. The Iraqis like Zeyad who will care to vote in December will vote for the secular Allawi list (with al-Yawer, the Communist Party and Pachachi), keeping their noses shut about some of the candidates, but to no avail whatsoever.
(continued…)
(…continued)
Apart from electoral fraud and intimidation, every day some secular, educated Iraqis are found dead, handcuffed, and often with the signs of horrible tortures (electric drills etc.; like in Iran, where the tortures of the Savak of the Shah got re-hired by the Vevak of the Ayatollahs, Saddam’s torturers have been re-employed by the Shiite militias/‘official’ Iraqi forces). They had been abducted by policemen or ‘national guard’, i.e. the moonlighting Shiite militias. Yesterday it was 27 corpses, near Qut. Don’t you get this sort of news in America? Once the powers that be have established their Islamic Republic, the (unelected) Hawza will decide, like in Iran, which candidates are ‘godly’, and which are ‘ungodly’ or not ‘godly’ enough… hail ‘freedom & democracy’!
But I do give the Iraqis a chance: the patriotic resistance may still win, through the armed struggle. And, anyway, whoever will win (the Iranians, with the Islamic Republic; the Israelis, with a non-State Iraq divided into no end of warring fiefdoms; or the Resistance, with a secular, unified, independent Iraq), all the world by now know who are already the losers: the United States of America.
A war on behalf of Israel and Iran. Are your thousand of dead soldiers worth it? For a small minority of American fanatics and halfwits, here represented by this poor retard Randy G (the critter attributes to me what he himself wrote!!!), if they had died only on behalf of Israel, that would have been OK! But I imagine that to loose some thousand soldiers on behalf of Iran, as it is precisely happening, should not make many Americans happy… wasn’t Iran part of the ‘Axis of Evil’?
Your answer to mine “in most countries outside the US, in their many different languages, the Americans are very often referred to as, precisely, ‘apes’ and ‘monkeys’” was so very predictable, that I had indeed predicted it: “them are all eeeevil”. Wouldn’t it be a bit more intelligent to wonder why such image is so widespread, dear Lynnette? You know, I put as my homepage a portrait of a young female specimen of Americopithecus Bellicus (the All American Girl for the Year 2004) just because, if I had put instead an elder male specimen of the species (i.e. your Ape in Chief), I was afraid that you would misunderstand my meaning… after all, you voted him in!
@ PeteS, 11.10.05 - 10:25 pm.
Your Holiness Pete, there are many levels in reality. Among them, there is the ‘vertical’ dimension, and there is this valley of tears. If one is a ‘fundamentalist’, all the levels conflate into one. The ‘fundamentalist’ can choose to operate in this world politically, applying his religious creed (as he sees it) to mundane realities. So have done too many fanatics in the past. Now, not being a fundamentalist (differently, I suspect, from you), I do tend, instead, to keep the levels or spheres of reality, or activity, well separated. I do not think that any good ever came from mixing one’s being a Catholic (or a Christian, or a Muslim, or a Jew) with political realities; and this regardless of the means the fundamentalist uses, holy war or politicking (yes, of course the Fundie out for holy war, like our idiotic Randy, is much worse than the ‘peaceful’ one, like I suppose you to be).
This does not mean that the non-fundamentalist is a "Catholic second"; as a – simply – Catholic, he’s a ‘Catholic first’ in the proper sphere, the one regarding the ‘vertical’ dimension and his personal life. When confronted with unpleasant political realities, a believer has got to make one’s own moral judgements. Of course they are going to be influenced by his faith, hopefully (well, Grand Ayatollah Pete, what about that great part of the European Catholic clergy that most unfortunately sided with Nazi-Fascism during WW2, or were not against it? An example to follow as Tradition & Magisterium? Didn’t they perceive that such an ideology was, quite simply and quite openly, satanic and evil? Maybe you are following in their steps…). To try and comment on the Iraqi war according to Catholic ‘moral theology’ is, in my opinion, absolutely unsound (and, again, the improper attempt to apply some very abstract “Catholic moral teaching” to the situation is, like your brilliantly confused results showed, just a form of moral masturbation).
Again, I do not comment on Iraqi blogs as ‘a Catholic’ (that only you have the pretence to do, Holy Father Peter II). That I happen to be a Catholic just came out because of the incredible things this crazy Randy says, which aren’t Catholic in any way or form, be the guy ‘Catholic first’ or ‘Catholic second’. Apart from that, the blog of an agnostic Muslim like Zeyad, living in a country rent apart by enemies, is not the proper place to discuss theology, don’t you think?
“If you want to appeal to Scripture, Tradition, or Magisterial teaching to demonstrate the rightness of revelling in the deaths of U.S. soldiers I am all ears”.
I never wanted to do anything of the kind, since the thing does not apply at all. As for Scripture, Your Seraphic Eminence Pete, I could address you to no end of parts of the Bible where one revels in the death of one’s (mundane) unjust enemies (not necessarily ‘the enemies of God’). So what? There is an unjust occupation and a war going on, in case you didn’t notice…
(continued…)
(…continued)
“ ‘those who keep silent in front of the injustice done to others are NOT charitable at all’. ‘I notice when I don't keep silent it’s a sanctimonious homily?’.”
And what “injustice” was done by me, oh Peadarín a chara? To be happy that the members of an army unjustly wreaking a country after having invaded it get killed on a regular basis? That at least some of the bullies get they right deserts? And how is it that you always search for some excuse for the atrocities these US invaders are committing? And how often you do not ‘keep silent’ in front of them?
“how do the Ninevites react in your version?”
In my version, after having been very strongly admonished by Jonas, they do repent, abandon their evil ways, and make penance. Were the Lord to compel our American warmongers to do likewise! I would not object in the least...
“Should one be happy because the oppression is lifted or because the bully is dead?”.
Dear Chieftain of the Scribes & Pharisees Pete, because the oppression is lifted, of course. But the death of the US bullies in Iraq is indispensable for the oppression to be lifted, as everybody knows.
“Then it is equally obviously wrong to rejoice over evil”.
No, Pete: the losses taken by the US aggressors are an obvious moral good, because they speed up the end of the injustice (of course, not ‘the Good’; but we do live in this world, made imperfect through original sin; and if attacked by a bully, you have the right to defend yourself).
“ ‘As for the Apes stuff, you know very well, dear Pete, that it is not my invention’. ‘On the contrary, I have never ever encountered it except from you’ ”.
Careful, Peadarín: your nose is growing…
[‘Hush, shush, Oytalian! Pppsssttt…’ ‘What d’ye mean, Pete, if I luve Ireland? Yes I do. What, Pete… ye tell me I betrayed de Land?’ ‘Oytalian, de Oyrish industry an’ tourism! Yer wee open secret ain’t dat good fer dem!’ ‘Oh sh**e, ye’r roight, Pete! But dere’s nutin we kin do naw! De cat is out de bag!’ ‘No dere is… just copyroight de ting, Oytalian, ’n’denoy anybody else in de world calls dem beasties ‘apes’n’monkeys’!’ ‘Naw, Pete, not even me kin believe dem critters to be so stupid as to swallow dis…’ ‘Trust me, Oytalian, I know dem animals better dan ye do… Dem Americans just luve to believe evvrrybody in de world just luves dem, ’cept de evil Oytalian!’ ‘Ok, Pete, but what if dem billions o’people from all around de world den sue me fer a-stealing de copyroight? An’ dem a-going to testifoy dat dey called dem Americans loike dat when I was still sucklin’ me Ma’s milk…’ ‘Don’t ye worry, Oytalian, cause de Ministry o’Trade ’n’ Bord Fáilte are gonna pay yer lawyers!’]
… and please wash yourself from that special brand of Irish soap… it gives out an awful stench!
An Italian,
El retardo Randy here. You said " The US were searching for local forces to fight the ‘insurgents’, and the Shiite militias filled the bill.
Now they are entrenched in Government, and they won’t let go; the elections are irrelevant. The Iraqis like Zeyad who will care to vote in December will vote for the secular Allawi list (with al-Yawer, the Communist Party and Pachachi), keeping their noses shut about some of the candidates, but to no avail whatsoever."
What you don't seem to get is that the dynamics of this struggle in Iraq is not one that we Americans are totally co0nfortable with. None of us really want to see Iran annex Iraq. As a matter of fact, that is why our illustrious CIA backed a young Saddam many moons ago...but who would or could have suspected that he would grow to become so depraved with his power and quest for more. We did the right thing in taking him out and the initial surge of happiness in Iraq after his forces fell told that story. Unfortunately we did not take the next step, which would have been to fill the political void and begin policing the country until a new government could be erected. That was our fault. And it has lead to much of the miseries since then.
But all the finger pointing in the world will not solve the Problem. I as well wish that a new secular government can be created in the upcoming elections. For Zeyad's and Alaa's and Omar's and Mohammed's sake and for all of Iraq's sake. You can go on and on about how evil Bush was or is...but that does not solve the problem that exists today. Yes, we also get the reports of Sadr's army and yes, many of us have followed his pontificating and murderous ways and many of us have previously posted that they should just take him out. I said that a year ago. But that hasn't happened.
I really don't care if you don't see the wisdom of trying to get a democracy to sprout where there was just fear and total abuse of power. It is a goal worth supporting. It still is. And I think that God above also wants to see it. Sorry if that bothers you, my fellow Catholic...but God is active in all of this and He knows just how evil the terrorists who blow up innocent people are and the Sadrist militia and the same for the Iranian fundamentalists who wish to grow their control of the people and the Sunni and their own fundamentalist desire to grow their own control of the people. Lots of bad guys. And then there are the majority of Iraqi's who just want peace and a chance to raise their children in peace. So how do we get there?
You are so big on criticism. Tell us all how this should go from now. I am saying that I want a secular government that represents all Iraqi groups to come to power. What do you want? Enough of the silly name calling and ape crap. Tell us how you see a way out for the people of Iraq. Here's a chance to be a hero. Tell us, An Italian. What would you have the Iraqis do?
El retardo Randy eating a banana
An Italian,
El retardo here again...you said???"(yes, of course the Fundie out for holy war, like our idiotic Randy"
Sorry Charlie, I never said anything aboutr a holy war. Never. Only said that in one particular battle, many of our solkdiers asked for divine protection by four leagues of angels against an enemy who was going to ambush them...and that is what they got. Simple basic truth. But it has nothing to do with a holy war. We never went to Iraq to convert anyone to any other religion than the one they had. Sorry if you don't grasp that. Again...our soldiers are secularists, Catholics, Eposcopalians, Baptists, Lutherans , Muslims, Jewish, methodists, prespeteryans (spelling), hundus and athiests and no one denomination holds any sway in how the army is run. Man...you are stupid if you can't grasp that basic fact!!!!
Italian, this is going way beyond off-topicness, but I'm really surprised! How can you be so misinformed?
It seems we have on the one hand the somewhat Evangelical-minded Catholic Randy G (btw Randy in answer to your question of 11.11.05 - 12:49 am: "You ever read the bible? Or is being a catholic mean that there is some other sort of text that you are to follow?" ... er, yes of course there is: try CCC 95), and on the other hand we have the secular Italian Catholic who wants to avoid confusing certain "dimensions" (sounds a bit Trekkie-like to me).
If its a choice between a position that tries to understand (however imperfectly) the will of God and act on it, and one that keeps God in His place making sure that the interior life never impinges on "reality", I think I know where I stand. I mean c'mon, really ... is there any point whatsoever to a religious faith that occupies a "sphere of reality" that is utterly disconnected from mundane experience? It's hard to imagine any more Pharasaical "moral masturbation" than that. Perhaps you belong to that school of thought perfected in the U.S. (in spite of, or perhaps because of, its more religious leanings compared to Europe) that says "practice your faith in peace my friend, as long as it never makes any difference to anything you ever do or say in public". This is a school of thought that has strayed from healthy pluralism to dogmatic secularism.
I do not think that any good ever came from mixing one’s being a Catholic ... with political realities
Then for 10 bonus points, tell me where this came from (hint - it's paragraph 1886 of a big book published during the JP2 pontificate and the first of its kind since Trent):
Society is essential to the fulfillment of the human vocation. To attain this aim, respect must be accorded to the just hierarchy of values, which "subordinates physical and instinctual dimensions to interior and spiritual ones:" Human society must primarily be considered something pertaining to the spiritual. Through it, in the bright light of truth, men should share their knowledge, be able to exercise their rights and fulfill their obligations, be inspired to seek spiritual values; mutually derive genuine pleasure from the beautiful, of whatever order it be; always be readily disposed to pass on to others the best of their own cultural heritage; and eagerly strive to make their own the spiritual achievements of others. These benefits not only influence, but at the same time give aim and scope to all that has bearing on cultural expressions, economic, and social institutions, political movements and forms, laws, and all other structures by which society is outwardly established and constantly developed.
(cont'd)
I will not waste too much time on you labelling me "fundamentalist" (LOL). I am sure you don't mean to associate me with American dispensationalist Protestantism, but are instead using the term in the usual pejorative sense of "anyone who takes religion more seriously than I deem appropriate". As for your dire warnings about the dangers of zealotry -- they don't even make any sense! Do you think a clergyman who sided with Nazism considered his moral theology too much or too little (or maybe not at all).
And so, oh Ayatollah of Apathy, when you say "a believer has got to make one’s own moral judgements" about "unpleasant political realities", what exactly do you mean? You say "they are going to be influenced by his faith, hopefully" (emphasis mine). Don't you know that a Catholic believer is absolutely required to inform himself fully about the Church's teaching on moral matters. (See the CCC article on moral conscience). So when you castigate me for "trying all along to understand how Catholic moral teaching should be applied to the situation", what exactly am I doing that you and I both are not required to do?
Apart from that, the blog of an agnostic Muslim like Zeyad, living in a country rent apart by enemies, is not the proper place to discuss theology, don’t you think?
No I don't, as it happens. I notice that George Bush's theology gets mentioned often enough whenever a bit of U.S.-bashing is in order. What did you think Christian Crusader's satire was all about?
In my version, after having been very strongly admonished by Jonas, they [the Ninevites] do repent, abandon their evil ways, and make penance. Were the Lord to compel our American warmongers to do likewise! I would not object in the least...
Of course the Lord didn't compel the Ninevites. They repented because of Jonah's message. My point, which I'm sure you did not miss, was that his art of persuasion did not involve an endless tirade of abuse.
(cont'd)
...the losses taken by the US aggressors are an obvious moral good, because they speed up the end of the injustice (of course, not ‘the Good’; but we do live in this world, made imperfect through original sin; and if attacked by a bully, you have the right to defend yourself).
I think you are hopelessly confused on this point. War is always a moral evil. That is why the late Pope declared that it "must always be considered a defeat: a defeat of reason and of humanity". In the same way, my killing someone in self-defence is an evil. It may be that I had absolutely no other option, in which case the evil is not imputed to me (i.e. I am not guilty of it), but that does not make the killing objectively good in itself -- it remains an objective evil. Coming back to my original point about U.S. troops: even if their cause was totally unjust it would still be an objective evil for them to be killed, and therefore not something to be celebrated. (Please tell me you "get" this).
Hush, shush, Oytalian!...
A hIodálach, leave the cheesy Oirish accents to Hollywood. Even Julia Roberts as Kitty in "Michael Collins" did better than that ... and that's saying something! I am doing my best to be accepted by my new neighbours in Wexford. Thank God I don't sound like that -- they'd kick the shit out of me 
And anyway, isn't it more a matter of "C'monna now PeteS, donta maka me reada da Catecheesm ... I mighta hav'a da changa my mind!"
Pete S,
Well said, my fellow Christian...well said.
I am indeed trying to learn more about my faith and about God's relationship with all of us humans and I can say with much joy that it is an awesome journey. I do not intend to have others say that I am trying to convert Iraqis to be catholics...for the bible is clear...it must be God's intent for that to happen. But I am not going to be silent about my faith either. Not because I want to rival any other faith or that I wish to bring secularists into the light. But to simply attest to the awesomeness of the light itself.
For the light is the key. M=E/C2 is the origional formula that Einstein came up with in 1905. It is the rosetta stone to proof that God does indeed exist and the light is the key (electromagnetic light, to be exact). For those who read scripture, it is there in many a repetitive phrase or hint or expression. I just never knew it was so literal. Awesome stuff, indeed.
An Italian is an interesting fellow. We have shared some more peaceful bits of information months ago...but for now he just wishes to go on and on about how we have wrecked Iraq's future...when indeed, what we have done was unchain the Iraqi citizens. And now we all can only hope and pray that as a group...they begin to see the larger picture of a new country they can all be proud of someday and that they work towards that fulfillment. Yes, there are the ex-baathists who seem to be unable to relinquish the need to keep killing shites so that they can return to power. But I see many a hint that more and more will seek a political solution and lay down their arms. I pray for that every day. And as for the Al Zarqawi "walking dead", I pray they some of them as well might have a change of heart...such as that young palistinian boy had last year as he walked toward a jewish settlement with a bomb wrapped around his waist. Killing others who never did you any harm and who are innocent is evil in the eyes of God. And so God can and will effect that awakening if enough of us pray for that. That is a good goal. And one attainable. For nothing is impossible in regards to God above. Nothing.
[rg] I really don't care if you don't see the wisdom of trying to get a democracy to sprout where there was just fear and total abuse of power. It is a goal worth supporting. It still is.
Well now, on the face of it that’s a noble ideal. Except for, of course, that there are two problems.
(1) Was / is the US’s goal REALLY to establish a democracy … or were there additional factors? Given that the first thing the US tried to do when they took over was to punt Chalabi as some sort of benevolent dictator, and then, when his lack of support became apparent, foist a dodgy system of hand-picked “caucuses” on Iraq – the commitment to “democracy” was less than evident. (Not to mention the cancellation of the various municipal elections that had been held, because the results were displeasing to you yanks.) As for “alternative” reasons for invasion, there are many. Does it suffice to say “client state” ?
(2) IF we conceded that the main US goal WAS democracy (which we don’t) the question of this being a worthy goal in the CURRENT political climate is more than a bit relevant. Clearly, the Shias will assume control of anyIraqi government. There is no problem in this per se (there were many Shiite Ba’athists as well) except for the fact that SCIRI et al, being the best organised Shiite parties, will consequentially take control, which will further extend the Iranian influence in the Gulf. I hardly consider this as a worthy goal, considering the nature of the current Iranian government.
Solutions: The solution would clearly be to remove the root causes of anger against the US from the arab street. That would mean dealing and resolving the Israeli issue in a fair and equitable manner and reimbursing the Palestinians for the grief and loss that the creation of Israel has caused them. I, as an international citizen, would be willing to donate some small contribution to this end. So would many others. I would NEVER have gone after Saddam Hussein, EVEN if he had WMD up to his eyeballs. I would have, after resolving the Israeli issue, focused on reconstructing Afghanistan in a credible way, and focused on promoting democracy in the ME countries best able to handle it, such as Jordan or the smaller Gulf emirates. (Assuming of course, that we are trying to ‘democratise’ the ME … which is your idea.) IF the NeoCON theory of democratic dominoes was tenable, we would soon see if it spreads or not.
You see, this is the fundamental difference between one such as I and the idiot Bush regime, even assuming our ends were the same. I believe in positive pressure, and leading by example. They believe in violence and force, and hypocrisy. In the end, they will find that such violent methods to be MUCH more expensive in the long run, even if their egos at being big badass muthas are stroked.
[rg] “M=E/C2 is the origional formula that Einstein came up with in 1905. It is the rosetta stone to proof that God does indeed exist and the light is the key (electromagnetic light, to be exact).”
I’ll refrain from the obligatory “ROTFL” and just ask you: What makes you think this, exactly? I’d be interested in seeing how you make the connection between the interchangability of mass and energy, and the existence of God.
I’d be interested in seeing how you make the connection between the interchangability of mass and energy, and the existence of God.
Me too. I can't seem to find that in my catechism.
...light is the key (electromagnetic light, to be exact).
Not to be confused with all those other types of light? (Precious few spring to mind, except maybe at a stretch the electroweak Z boson ).
Bruno,
Israel is the key...but not for the reasons you would put forth. Israel has an older entitlement to the land it now owns than any other group of people. And yet there is a deep seated desire to kill all of the jewish people and distroy Israel. That is part of the problem in the middle east...and the focus is on Jerusalem. Jews and arabs claim it. But God alone will see it to it's destiny. Americans are and have always been a fair minded people. Even if we did not have a strong tie in our religions, we would not want to see arabs killing all of the jewish people in Israel. We would like to see some sort of truce that worked between all of the people there. The Palestinians are used as pawns by the arab terrorists and by most of the arab goivernments. These governments could correct all of the problems with the Palistinians very easily, for they have an incredible wealth via their oil revenues. And yet they don't. Why? so they can point a finger at Israel and say "oh how terrible they are to the Palestinians". Sorry...I don't buy it. I know where the hate lies and I know where it came from and until the arabs deal with their own deep seated hatred for the jews, there will be no peace.
God IS light. He is a light being...as seen again and again in various passages in the old and new testament. I don't need to bring them up. They are there for any to see. God created the universe...with the big bang.
"Let there be light"...and BANG...there was electromagnetic light streaming out in every direction. Then God was able to simply slow the light down to form mass (M=E/C2). I don't have a clue as to how that works...but it does. Thats how he did it all. Even creating our own DNA (no, we did not emerge as an accident from some primordial soup). ANd if we ever discovered exactly how to replicate that...he'd probably have to bring on the end of times. For we would abuse that knowledge. I really don't care if you or anyone else doesn't believe my hypothesis. I know in my heart that it is real. Way too many references to it...the light at the end of the tunnel...going up into the light...God's eyes burned like fire brands...and on and on. God is Omnipotent and created it all. Sadly, we decided to go with self will and sinned and now it means we need to get back up with our spiritual father and put away our sins. Sadly, that is not easily done and we wallow in it. And so we struggle on...moving through time towards that inevitable End of Times when it will all come to a head and God will have to come back so that there will be some flesh still alive to save. We have our detiny in our own hands. ANd yet we are so much more drawn to argueing with each other on these issues and warring against each other than we are in simply loving our creator with all of our hearts and then in loving our neighbors. Sad indeed. I doubt many of you will see any wisdom in what I say. That prideful ego will kick in and each will go with his or her own spin. But God above does answer us when we pray for discernment and he has shown me stuff that continues to boggle my mind. And I am a biologist.
So let fly at me. I really don't care. God is real and so are my new friends in Iraq and so are my friends around the world. We can either discuss these issues as awesome concepts or we can sink to the point of name calling. I wish we could do the former but I fear that it will end up as the latter. So be it.
Randy, caution is advised...
God IS light. He is a light being...
I think we have to be careful here. Judaism and Christianity are full of light-related symbolism. The Psalmist says "In Your light we see light" (Ps. 36). This is remembered with the menorah used during Hanukkah (festival of lights). Our Catholic sanctuary lamp is probably a throwback to Hannukah, but reinterpreting it to commemorate Christ as "the light of the world". But John 1:4 tells us how to understand this -- "In Him was life, and that life was the light of men". See also Ps. 27:1, Ps. 36:9, Pr. 6:23 where light and life are conflated. It's clear that these references are to the life of grace, basically "God's life".
What we can't do is to conflate God's life with electromagnetic radiation - a feature of the created order. That would be Pantheism.
God created the universe...with the big bang. "Let there be light"...and BANG...there was electromagnetic light streaming out in every direction.
It's a minor quibble, but light couldn't go anywhere in the early universe. The mean path between interactions was ultra-microscopic. It took 300,000 years before electrons finally bound to atoms and the universe became transparent to light for the first time.
Then God was able to simply slow the light down to form mass (M=E/C2). I don't have a clue as to how that works...but it does. Thats how he did it all.
It's a curious way to put it, but the equivalence of mass and energy is beyond dispute alright.
...the light at the end of the tunnel...going up into the light...God's eyes burned like fire brands...and on and on
Are there bible references for these? And any direct mention of E=MC2. Of course maybe Einstein got his ideas from the bible in the first place (see Proposed Purpose #10).
Israel has an older entitlement to the land it now owns than any other group of people.
This is such a curious argument. To use a parallel closer to home (for me), the IRA typically want the Brits out of Ireland to restore a perceived status quo from some hundreds of years back. But why not get the Brits out of Britain too? Or at least any of them descended from Angles, Saxons or Normans. Lets have it back for the real Brythons and Scoti (and maybe Picti).
Or even more topically (and indeed biblically), why aren't we driving the Iraqis out of Mesopotamia. (Don't tell me that's what Dubya is really up to). I mean, ok, God may have tossed us out of Eden for bad behaviour, but aren't we allowed to take it back now? ... O certe necessarium Adae peccatum, quod Christi morte deletum est and all that?
Italian - hot off the press... from the Pope's address Saturday to the new U.S. ambassador to the Holy See:
In his Message for the 2005 World Day of Peace, my predecessor, Pope John Paul II, called attention to the intrinsic ethical dimension of every political decision, and observed that the disturbing spread of social disorder, war, injustice and violence in our world can ultimately be countered only by renewed appreciation and respect for the universal moral law whose principles derive from the Creator himself.
Oh, and he invoked "God's blessings of prosperity, joy and peace" upon "all the beloved American people".
Pete S
You said..."Are there bible references for these? And any direct mention of E=MC2. Of course maybe Einstein got his ideas from the bible in the first place"
I first heard this on a christian radio program. The speaker said that when you really get into physics it is actually true that everything in the univers is actually electromagnetric light...just slowed down enough to take on mass. That in itself is a hard thing to get your mind around. But when you do go into the basics of what makes up the mass of a pen...or a stone...or a book...there are electrons and protons and atoms all buzzing about within each of these masses. No one has proven that you can actually slow light down. But nothing is impossible with God. And I do believe that that explains how he did create it all.
DNA...we are taught that it was created in a pool of primitive sea water with some jolts of lightning. I as well used to teach that to my biology students. But when you really get into the absolutely awesome structure of DNA and of even primitive cells, it is astounding to see that there are literally hundreds of millions of parts to each cell and DNA is so specific in how each part has to be either a left handed or right handed molecule to form the double helix that you begin to see that without an intelligent designer there is just no way that it all could have "come together". Chirality (the study of righthanded and lefthanded molecules) also says it never happened by chance. It's like us believing that if you were to take an automobile and cut it up into say a hundred million pieces, each 1 mm cubed...and then you were to throw those pieces into a vat of motor oil and gasoline...and hit it with electricity...that you would ever see a car evolve out of that pool. No way! Not in a trillion years times a trillion years.
When I say that God is light...I mean that his inner core is probably light and that his form is like ours...plenty of references to this in the bible. SOrt of like that alien in Cacoon (the movie). God just IS. He never deals with time like we do. He just always is and he can do whatever he feels he wants to do. And he wanted to create earth and he did. Do I believe that it was in 7 days? Not really. For a day is like a thousand years to God and he did it in his own concept of time. And in the dead sea scrolls bible (the compilation of these parts of the old testament that have been translated..it is very curious to me that after each day in the beginning...it says "a first day" and "a second day"...not "The first day" and "the second day".
I wanted to know more about e=mc2 after hearing that program on the radio. And I was and am still praying for discernment in all of this. So I walk into a barnes and noble bookstore and say "now where will I find a book on "E=MC2"?. I look down at my feet and there by a table is a pile of books on the floor with the title "E=MC2". God is just awesome sometimes. A Priest says that he has heard of bookstore angels helping people find appropriate books. Who knows. Anyway, that book was and is awesome. It tells of the evolution of those three components as we know them...Enegry and Mass and the speed of light. And of how Einstein came to discover that formula and how the scientists just took off with the search for energy in a simple atom...even though his origional formula was M=E/C2. ANd he called God "The Old Man". Ironic...for he bacame one not knowing that that formula was the very thing that he was seeking all of his adult life for...he thought there was some more complicated formula that he could find that would tie together all of the magesty of God's creation. And yet it was there right in front of him all the time.
That was a year ago. I look for the connections and the hints of that formula as I read the bible and other religious literature...and it is there in abundance. Sure it is figurative and talks about light being the truth that God speaks of and darkness being Satan trying to cloak the light with lies and slander. But it is also just as true in reality...at least it is to me. We all know that there is energy that will go on when we die...for energy can neither be created nor distroyed. That energy is light. I saw a silly Ghost hunter special on TV the other night and they actually had this device that showed these little glowing balls floating about in the house...which they said were departed spirits. Hey..who knows...could have literally been some peoples souls. I only know that this stuff is awesome to me and that I find it facinating...the biologist in me comes out here. And I do believe that God has led me to other hints that it is true.
But Enough of this for now. I have an inquistive mind and I will keep delving into it. Maybe frankenstein had it almost right...using lightning to kick start a corpse. But only God has the ability to let us in to heaven or cast us out. And only we hold the key to that entry...in whether we actually believe in God. Not some hijacked God of the terrorist making (for they dress in black and preach hate and give their "prince's" true identity away)...but the real God. The One who made us and the One who loves us. Part of this God's message can be found in each of the great religions on the earth. But I do feel that Christianity calls me the strongest.
Pete S,
Among other ways that the Israelis can stake a claim to Israel is the fact that God did will it to them. Not sure if he did that for Ireland for the Irish or for any ancient group for Mesopotamia. No...I kind of think that Israel is a special case. And Jerusalem is the key. Sad to see so many squabbling about it and over it...and if Revelation is to be believed...it will all come to a head there.
@ PeteS, 11.13.05 - 9:12 pm to 9:19 pm.
Pete, this is indeed “going way beyond off-topicness”, even if you then contradict yourself by alleging that instead it is in-topic all right (“‘Apart from that, the blog of an agnostic Muslim like Zeyad, living in a country rent apart by enemies, is not the proper place to discuss theology, don’t you think?’ ‘No I don't, as it happens. I notice that George Bush's theology gets mentioned often enough whenever a bit of U.S.-bashing is in order. What did you think Christian Crusader's satire was all about?’”).
Now, look: I believe the best way to deal with ‘American Christianism’ (this properly yahoo ‘electionist’ theology of a simian & anti-Christian – not just anti-Muslim - ‘holy war’) is, precisely, satire, like the humorous secular American troll ‘Christian Crusader’ was doing (and notice that the most extreme things the troll was saying ARE, indeed, maintained by the real ‘American Christianists’: for instance, the ignorant blasphemies about the Arabic name of the Lord were indeed propounded in earnest, in this very comment page, by the mindless Randy G). If I’d known that intervening against the mad claims of our Randy would have made you transform Zeyad’s comments page into the ‘Catholic Theology Forum’, maybe I’d abstained… because, indeed, this is NOT the proper place. It does not interest, for sure, our host Zeyad, nor any Iraqi, including the Iraqi Catholics. Do you think, Great Theologian Pete, these last do have any time for your subtle and very specious arguments? Be sure that, busy as they are in just staying alive, avoiding in most of Iraq the deadly ministrations by the many sectarian militias and groups the wonderful US ‘liberation’ brought in its wake (on the basis of ‘divide and conquer’), and in Ninevah the extraordinary kindnesses by the Kurdish bandits of the KDP, they have very little time for the interpretation of Catechism; and that, seeing as they do that their present situation is about one hundred times worse than under Saddam, they have little time for your uncertain application of the Catholic principles of just war… (to chase some spider-webs from your mind, do have a look at the websites of the Iraqi Christians from time to time…). And I think it does not interest most of the other readers, as well.
As for the question at hand, quite simply, I am from Italy, and you are from Ireland. When the British Empire put in place its plan to invent Italy, by forced unification of the peninsula (1860-61), the Piedmont Prime Minister, their ally, was Camillo Benso Count of Cavour, whose motto was: ‘A free Church in a free State’. To deal with arrogant clergy wanting to keep or impose any kind of temporal power on behalf of the Church, some kisses by Madame Guillottine or by a Garibaldian musket resulted most effective in the past (and the same happened in most of Western Europe). Most Italian practicing Catholics are, by now, fully reconciled with the concept; so I am, precisely, a “secular Italian Catholic who wants to avoid confusing certain ‘dimensions’”.
(continued…)
(…continued)
In Ireland (well, two thirds of it), instead, for most of the 20th century the local Catholic Church had an unbridled temporal control; the Pharisaic and grim clergy just did love to endlessly argue about legalistic fine points in the interpretation of Church laws and on “how Catholic moral teaching should be applied”. Every time they got bored out of that inconclusive and unsavoury activity, they’d just go, and rape some of the children unfortunately entrusted to their ‘care’ (is this one below the belt, dear Pete? No, because I believe there is a definite link between the position of temporal power of the Irish Church, that was unique in 20th century Europe, its legalistic propensities, and the abominations without parallel it committed). And you, dear Pete, are a product of the Irish Catholic experience, who confusedly says, grabbing some tome as if it were “religion” or ‘God’s law’, “I know where I stand”…
Given the fruits of the two separate experiences, with the undeniable vibrancy of the Italian Catholic Church in most Italian regions, and instead the - as undeniable - parlous state of the Irish one, I have no doubt, Pete, about who is right between us.
“Do you think a clergyman who sided with Nazism considered his moral theology too much or too little (or maybe not at all)”.
I do think, dear Pete, that in most cases those clergymen did, out of moral cowardice, act precisely like you did in this discussion, trying to stretch things, and rules, and regulations, to that result, and applying double standards all the time; refusing to see the forest and speciously looking at the tree; moreover saying that they were “required” to do that! And, after WW2, to the Catholics, both clergy and laity, who were asking them why they had not opposed Nazi-Fascism, each of them did precisely answer – like you do: “Are you really asking why I wasn't utterly opposed to [Nazi-Fascism], as you are? I've been trying all along to understand how Catholic moral teaching should be applied to the situation. I'd be the first to admit I'm not sure of the answer”.
Congratulations, Pete!
And, on top of that, you have the incredible cheek of laying ‘moral apathy’ at my door!
“My point, which I'm sure you did not miss, was that Jonah's art of persuasion [of the Ninevites] did not involve an endless tirade of abuse”.
It is written (KJV): “go to Ninevah, that great city, and cry against it” (Jon. 1, 2); and Jonah went around Ninevah screaming “Yet forty days, and Ninevah shall be overthrown” (Jon 3,4); maybe Jonah was ‘hot-under-the-collar’, Most Seraphic Pete, don’t you think? His tirade must have been quite hot, since they “turn[ed] every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands” (Jon 3,. And when the Lord forgave the Ninevites and didn’t destroy them, the prophet “was very angry” (Jon 4,1). Now, your beloved Americans haven’t turned (yet) from their evil ways, nor “from the violence that is in their hands”. And up to the time they do (to go back to your “original point about U.S. troops”, whose cause IS “totally unjust”) their deaths are precisely “something to be celebrated”, in order to open their arrogant and thick heads to the desirability of desisting from their evil ways and their violence.
(continued…)
(…continued)
And do remember the ‘prophetic mission’ of the believer: “When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou has delivered thy soul” (Ezek. 33,8-9). And the ‘wicked’, Peadarín, are quite possibly not ‘de evil Oytalian’, but, for instance, those who have destroyed and raped a whole country without a reason, murdering (and causing the murder of) tens of thousands of people, making the life of its inhabitants an unending misery…
You do not want to shine as the stars (Dan 12, 3: “they that turn many to righteousness [shall shine] as the stars for ever and ever”) ? Well, it’s your business.
“I am doing my best to be accepted by my new neighbours in Wexford. Thank God I don't sound like that -- they'd kick the shit out of me”.
Ah ah ah, here the shoneen Pete comes out! (as I darkly suspected). What have you got against the Dublin working class dialect? It is beautiful in my opinion (and it sounds precisely like the Gallo-Roman dialects of my own Northern Italian region, BTW); albeit I admit that if one attempts to write it, it may seem a bit funny... But – like all the comical shoneens - you believe you are ‘better’ than them; an inferiority complex masked as a superiority one! Because, indeed, the Dublin working class is far better than you are, and they are your betters… for instance, most of them knew right away, like most people in the world outside the US, that the American war against Iraq was a criminal, and crazy, unjust enterprise. To reach that conclusion, did they have to loftily ponder “how Catholic moral teaching should be applied to the situation” (ending up “not sure of the answer”, besides)? No, they just were in possession (differently from you!) of moral ‘common sense’! (which was, of course, only strengthened by their religious background). Do learn from them, Shoneen a chara!
Poor Irish middle & upper classes! Once upon a time, aspiring to respectability and wanting to take their distances from the ‘common’ Irish, they did ape the English (and so they got called shoneens); but that was somewhat understandable in a colonial or post colonial situation. These past thirty years, instead, these shoneens looked elsewhere for their models, and, less understandably, started to… ape the Apes!
As for the Wexford people, I suspect that instead of your Dublin 4 accent they would appreciate much more an attempt on your part to study Yola (for those unfamiliar with Ireland, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yol...ola_language)
...
And, Peadarín, get rid of that famous shoneen brand of soap: it keeps stinking more and more!
[italian] "and it sounds precisely like the Gallo-Roman dialects of my own Northern Italian region, BTW)"
Non saresti per caso di Bergamo? Mio padre proviene di li.
(Otherwise, I'm afraid that this is more OT rubbish that is going to follow. Quite how it has strayed from bashing the intervention there, I'm not sure.)
[randyg] “Let there be light"...and BANG...there was electromagnetic light streaming out in every direction. Then God was able to simply slow the light down to form mass (M=E/C2). I don't have a clue as to how that works...but it does.”
Basically what happened is that with the expansion of the universe from the initial big bang, the incredibly high energy density was lessened; when that occurred the weak and strong forces that act within atoms and subatomic particles managed to overcome the energy that kept everything apart. Once subatomic particles were formed, the continued expansion of the universe cooled matter down even further which allowed atoms to form (hydrogen) from these particles.. Gravity then drew the atoms of hydrogen together into clouds of gas, which accreted into suns planets, etc.
The formation of life from a primordial soup is a similar story. It IS NOT just some statistical random chance of life and DNA developing. The laws of chemistry dictate that there are only certain ways that chemicals react … hence the process is a LOT less random than the Creationist nuts would have you believe. If you mix Na and Cl for example, you can only end up with NaCl. Not NaNa or ClCl. Or NaClCl. The chemical behaviour of elements is dictated by the structure of their outer electron shell; there is nothing random about it.
Now, I am an atheist insofar as the Bible and other man-written texts are concerned. I do not say that an ultimate creator is impossible. It could be that such a creator specifically designed the laws of the universe to obtain this particular configuration.
[rg] “No one has proven that you can actually slow light down.”
You can’t. The Michaelson-Morley [spelling might be off!] experiment proved that the speed of light is absolute. What you CAN do is make it lose energy, and lengthen the wavelength at the same time. Ultraviolet light has more energy and a shorter wavelength than infrared light, for example. But the fact is that light does have mass. Solar wind (alright, there’s a lot of crap in it other than light, I know) is a logical example of light exerting pressure.
If you are interested in learning more, try reading a book called “Black Holes and Time Warps” by Kip Thorne. It’s a brilliant, brilliant book perfect for the intelligent layman. Or read Isaac Asimov’s books on physics. Both these men have a unique knack of rendering difficult concepts clear and understandable.
[randyg] “Among other ways that the Israelis can stake a claim to Israel is the fact that God did will it to them. Not sure if he did that for Ireland for the Irish or for any ancient group for Mesopotamia.”
Heh, this is where I draw the line between what is acceptable in religion and what is not.
The “gods” of the ancient Aztecs ALSO “willed” their lands to them, and specified that they should sacrifice people to ensure that the sun rose every morning. The “Gods” of the Egyptians separated land from water in order that people should live there. The “God” of the Christians / Jews apparently, in between incinerating sodomites and advocating the murder of women and children, bequeathed Israel to the Jews.
Funny, isn’t it, the way that religions always seem to follow somebody’s political agenda?
[randyg] “I know where the hate lies and I know where it came from and until the arabs deal with their own deep seated hatred for the jews, there will be no peace. ”
Of course, (heh-heh) the forcible conquest of Israel and the chasing of the Palestinians from their homes has NOTHING to do with this hatred, does it? Fact is, the Palestinians were by far the majority in Israel until this happened. I’ll admit I’m in two minds about the solution. On the one hand, since the land was stolen, if the Arabs chased out the Jews and retook what was theirs, it would be a similar thing as to what the Jews did in the first place. On the other hand, morally, it is not really defensible to destroy an entire nation in order to restore a status quo. I think that the Zinists SHOULD leave the Occupied territories, and that the UN boundaries be respected. And that the Palestinians receive a whole whack of dosh with which to build up something decent. Since the West tried to mitigate its own guilt for the Holocaust by effectively dispossessing the Palestinians in favour of the Jews, the West should help repair that damage.
Myself, though not part of the “West”, strictly speaking, would be willing to contribute to this end.
An Italian, dearie,
FYI, that military leader you find it improper for me to ape, in fact, having seen it would be impossible to DUCK any war Sparta would have witht eh farming nation of Thebes, decided to pre-emptively attack and destroy Sparta and her entire system of dominance whch has lasted for 400 years +.
How did this person do it?
By invading the area the helots lived in and SALTING THE AREAS WITH DEMOCRACIES, AND LEAVING FORTIFIED DEMOCRATIC SOCIETIES IN HIS WAKE.
In fact in the end, this so obliterated the societal base for the the Spartan hegemony (and this was after the Peloponesian war), his army never had to sack Sparta. They simply wasted away.
He was history's first 'neo-con'.
And he fulfills the definition perfectly. The only path to security is for men (and their EQUAL PARTNERS, the ladies) to have unfettered free choice, freedom of expression, and freedom of religion everywhere. Each society find it's own way by the people being responsible for themselves.
If you read that previous para carefully, in fact, it's neither right nor left.
Neo-cons simply believe american national security is not best served by Somoza and Mossadegh, but rather with democracies. If that is a curse, so be it.
As for the question at hand, quite simply, I am from Italy, and you are from Ireland
Blah blah and more blah. This has little to do with the question at hand. In spite of being from Catholic Ireland my Catholicism is the result of a later life conversion with influences that are far from Irish. Regardless of all that, how come you are determined to focus on the cultural correlates of religion? As far as I can tell I have been focussing on what the Church says about itself, not some opinionated claptrap about when one should or shouldn't consider what it says.
is this one below the belt, dear Pete?
No, I happen to agree with you entirely on that one.
What have you got against the Dublin working class dialect?
Is THAT what that was? Forgive me for not recognising it ... it sounded like something from Darby O'Gill and the Little People. . The Dublin accent is more like ... "Hey mistawh, d'ja want yer cahr looked aftawh for a quid. [D4 bloke: No you little scumbag - my Alsatian will guard it]. Hey mistawh, can yer dahg put out fires? Har har deadly buzz man".
Poor Irish middle & upper classes!
What a laugh. I CERTAINLY didn't grow up as one of them. However, I also don't have the reverse snobbery about the "Dublin 4 set" that seems to have rubbed off on you, however that happened. You are sounding very much like our snobbish and bitter "buffalo slayer" from earlier.
As for the Wexford people, I suspect that instead of your Dublin 4 accent they would appreciate much more an attempt on your part to study Yola [fixed your link]
Eh, no. I haven't come across any Wexfordites that are as interested in Yola as I am. One or two have inherited a smattering of nouns. For most even their Irish, let alone Yola, is non-existent.
[rg] No one has proven that you can actually slow light down.
You can’t. The Michaelson-Morley [spelling might be off!] experiment proved that the speed of light is absolute.
I beg to differ. The Michaelson-Morley experiment proved that the speed of light did not depend on one's direction in space and therefore disproved the existence of a luminiferous ether. The speed of light is not absolute at all. It's speed in a vacuum is a constant, but it slows down in any other medium (which is one way to think about refraction, and of course the fact that different wavelengths slow by different amounts is what's responsible for chromatic aberration).
In the last 10 years light has been dramatically slowed down using Bose-Einstein condensates. I don't know how things have progressed since this article, but I do remember reading that they had it down to less than walking speed. It always sounds like a bit of a cheat to me ... its more like destroying the light but saving its quantum state, then recreating it later. However, I'm reminded that quantum physics takes to an extreme the old adage that "if it it quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck, its a duck". If it has an identical quantum state it IS the identical object.
Sorry, that was me.
PeteS -
Hmm. You might be right after all. I'll dig through the ol' physics books and take a look. It's been a while.
An Italian. 11.12.05 - 3:31 am
"The point was that the napalm ‘clone’ and white phosphorus were INDEED used last November in Fallujah"
"Some ‘insurgents’ take over a house, allegedly killing two residents;"
Do I detect a faint odor *sniff* *sniff* of a double standard? The first group of people were tried and convicted without a .......well trial. And the second group of people are automatically given the benefit of the doubt.
"(but, surprise, an article from a US military paper admitted that much)."
That would be interesting to read, Italian. Please cite the source.
"They send forces to apprehend or kill the ‘insurgents’, taking care that the ‘hostages’ are saved."
And in the middle of a battle we have the ability to see through walls and determine that there ARE hostages? You seem to credit us with Superman like abilities.
"Your occupation created the basis for the Shiite fundamentalist parties"
No, my dear, they were always there. The only question was how to deal with them. Saddam used oppression. What happens when someone tells you that you can't do something or have something? Then that becomes the very thing you want to have and do. It is only until you live with it that you may have second thoughts. It is only until the religous parties are exposed to the light of day, and shown for what they are, that people will face up to the fact that they are not the solution.
"Sistani makes a good decision...
In an important step towards more credible and fair elections, senior cleric Ali al-Sistani announced through his office that he will refrain from receiving any of the political leaders running for office in the next elections and will reject the many requests made by many Iraqi politicians.
In my opinion, such steps constitute real support for the coming elections and a declaration on the part of the Ayatollah of his awareness of the previous mistake when politicians convinced the clergy into endorsing their lists which resulted in rendering the clergy liable for criticism from the public and affected its popularity rewarding the clergy with nothing but contempt from the people due to the poor performance of Jafari’s government.
People here are cautious (I mean the liberal people) from the interference of the clergy with the elections like what happened last time and I’ve discussed with many people that the outcome of last time’s experience will make it hard for the clerics to get involved in a similar mess again and tell them that there’s no need to be afraid this time." Mohammed
And so it starts. If you want to read the rest of that you can go to Iraq the Model. Yes, yes, I know they are CIA plants. But you still have to question Sistani's purpose in distancing himself from the political process.
“them are all eeeevil”.
No, no, dear Italian. I would not say that at all (unless, of course, they show a propensity for using large sharp knives to remove innocent peoples heads). No, I would put them on a par with people in my country who would run around dressed in bedsheets and pointy hoods. A ridiculous mode of dress that matched their views.